Most likely by removing hit caps on the GWF and giving them some burst AOE damage in there encounters and Dailies. And giving them a Threat buff. Probably to one of their passives. I have heard Bravery would make a good choice for something like that.
As a separate point: the target cap is mostly due to how closely they are trying to hold this game to actual DnD. Most fighter attacks, specifically with two-handed weapons, had a hit limitation of three-to-five targets in a cone damage area, not true 360 aoe.
The real issue in that translation from 4e to here, is that the damage is not as comparable as it should be (higher base weapon damage, highest damage roles versus the broader AOE of magic). The fighter has fewer targets he can hit, has to move around and approach the enemy, and despite not being a striker, still hit like a brick house falling off a mountain.
My only logical explanation for the discrepancy is that, due to the lack of understanding in the playerbase about the power of ranged attacks and the issue with PvP being objective based, all the fighters had to take a nerf in beta.
Then, of course, they nerfed CW AOE, which really skewed the system even further.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
You said it yourself you are in a guild thus you get the Charity of your guild mates using you...
You are either intentionally using the word 'Charity' to insult my skill level, or erroneously using the definition in reference to my relationship with my Guild mates.
Let's just go ahead and say it was the erroneously misuse option, sound good? :cool:
My Guild mates do not provide 'Charity' (the voluntary giving of help, typically in the form of money, to those in need) to me as a GWF. I am a useful part of a team, and my Guild recognizes that as I also recognize their worth.
Just wanted to clarify that for you, and everyone for that matter, so keep rocking and enjoy the game as you will!
You are either intentionally using the word 'Charity' to insult my skill level, or erroneously using the definition in reference to my relationship with my Guild mates.
Let's just go ahead and say it was the erroneously misuse option, sound good? :cool:
My Guild mates do not provide 'Charity' (the voluntary giving of help, typically in the form of money, to those in need) to me as a GWF. I am a useful part of a team, and my Guild recognizes that as I also recognize their worth.
Just wanted to clarify that for you, and everyone for that matter, so keep rocking and enjoy the game as you will!
I'm often left wondering if the players who believe that GWF's are useless, don't realize that they are the one's telling everyone else that GWF's are useless. If it isn't possible that the reason they don't get picked, isn't their very attitude.
I'll admit, I don't see a lot of 'We need one GWF for Karundax' going on in LFG channel. And it is easier, by far, to get into dungeons with guildies (that said, it ain't quite easy for TR's, either, and they have a role ... there's just too many of them).
But a good GWF with a good attitude can make all the difference.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
I would prefer if they got away from the 'tank' trope, and went a little more to what DnD 4e built into a defender. Less about aggro control, more about actively defending allies (jumping in front of strikes and taking the hit yourself; interrupting enemy melee attacks, not just spells), or positioning on the battlefield (fighters preventing enemies from moving past them; CW's and AR's staying the back of the battle). Not even sure if it's possible.
Just skimming some of your posts and myself as a long time D&D player of ever edition, I find flaws in your logic. 4E made the "Tank" Fight by giving them the ability to hit any mob that ignored them. It had very little to do with taking allies hits and interupting melee attacks. I recall it was the Ranger who was king of interrupting enemy attacks. And it was the Spellsword that was all about shielding allies with his marks. Paladin did radiant damage to marked targets that ignored him.
These are concepts that really can't come into play that well in the MMO aspect. And if they did it would require alot more rework of the game than you could ever hope to see. Cryptic has a hard time getting the basics of MMO, Tank, DPS and Heal strat down that I doubt they could handle anything as complex as you suggest.
Neverwinter just can't support the vast Utility powers that 4E characters received.
I have read many posts about players wanting a change in dungeon mechanics but that will never happen either old dungeons will stay the same. New ones might be different. Just like it was in Champions Online. In that game old dungeons became completely obsolete and forgotten about in order to make way for new content. Cryptic never rehashes the old stuff. Why do you think those dungeons are still bug tastic while MC's bugs are quickly fixed?
If your going to try to keep up this hopeless fight to save the GWF, I suggest you speak in terms the devs can understand. Tweak powers +damage - damage, threat control or mitigation. Things that work easy in numbers and programming. Concepts of what actual D&D is will never work.
And if you succeed in getting a change made I'll bring my GWF back into the game. But right now I'm still waiting to see how the fighters fall when the next class is released.
is seriously we enter this circular reasoning , vain , euphemistic?
Everyone understood what I meant by charity. everyone knows that I'm talking about charity and everyone knows that the topic is legitimate in its intention , has now exaggerations on both sides .
*gwf were few who've been playing this last month , and even the class seems to have won a " ap underground" . good job to the author of the topic. all win . gwf and never winter
lobo, you created a topic about the drug reaping strike , adding the idea of poll , making the discussion more democratic and clean . good job , hope to fruition . I have a particular interest .
I have a very specific vision of gwf and am trying to adapt the recent changes in "my way " , but I recognize the value of all people , through trial and error , created good gwf , including sharing the work here in Forun . good job.
I don't claim that I know how to fix gwf but one problem i have with the class is that all the utility on our skills is really, really weak.
Slows are pretty useless in this game, if "Not so Fast" was a root it would be slightly more usefull.
"Mighty leap" is highly situational, normally you're faster just sprinting there.
The push on "Roar" is hardly even noticeable.
"Daring Shout" could be usefull if it was a directional "Enforce Threat".
"Come and Get It" has a much to small range to be noticable in groups.
"Weapon Master Strike" could reduce damage resistance for all party member's At Wills
and "Reaping Strike" should go compleatly back to the drawing board, it's just embarassing.
I suggest you speak in terms the devs can understand. Tweak powers +damage - damage, threat control or mitigation. Things that work easy in numbers and programming.
Removing the targets cap is probably the easiest option in terms of programming. And as for repositionning, yes there is the repositionning to reach the targets that all the other classes keep moving away, but also the defensive repositionning to get out of red ground, no choice when a mere add like the Bodyguard in Aberrant Assault hits for 50k.
Removing the targets cap is probably the easiest option in terms of programming. And as for repositionning, yes there is the repositionning to reach the targets that all the other classes keep moving away, but also the defensive repositionning to get out of red ground, no choice when a mere add like the Bodyguard in Aberrant Assault hits for 50k.
The target cap doesn't bother me at all, at least for actual strikes (unlike roar). Nor does the damage reduction on subsequent targets. These are both rather true to form with the paper-and-pen styles.
The target reduction for CW's does bother me a bit. I hate suggesting changes for other classes, but I often feel that they should be able to affect everything in a given area, with no reduction of damage or CW on the number. Just, not as powerfully as they currently do.
I'm not big on increasing the damage output on GWF either. It would be nice, but I think it would also be unbalanced. Simply allow us a few core powers and feats which we can choose to generate higher threat, and make us better defenders. Again, the balance here is that melee should do superior damage to a few targets, moreso in my mind than magic (good damage to a lot of targets), and I think the considerable break in that balance is, again, CW's.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Hey Lobo got a question, Do you play any other class other than the GWF? As In you have a lv 60 character that is nearly as geared as your GWF and has been in most of the dungeons.
I just finished a SP, with a group of GF, GF, CW, CW, DC. As an experienced GF I took the role a GWF would play in this group. I went full damage and against Aboleth I soloed him while the rest of the team Took care of adds. Now this is somethign I have also done on my decently geared GWF and the shocking difference between GF single target DPS and GWF's poor powers cannot be put into words. But I'll try. Not Only do GF powers all deal more than 1k base damage (my cleave deals 1500 base damage in it's power descrption stat block) unlike GWF's. But I also gets an Encounter Knights challenge that doubles the damage of all my attacks against a single target. And yes GF's get moves, like Anvil of Doom that deal as much as or more damage than IBS.
I'm just curious if you have experienced first hand the vast differences between GWF powers and those of other classes. Cause rom what I see from these boards not a Single GWF player that has played other classes would say that a damage buff to GWF is overpowered.
Hey Lobo got a question, Do you play any other class other than the GWF? As In you have a lv 60 character that is nearly as geared as your GWF and has been in most of the dungeons.
I just finished a SP, with a group of GF, GF, CW, CW, DC. As an experienced GF I took the role a GWF would play in this group. I went full damage and against Aboleth I soloed him while the rest of the team Took care of adds. Now this is somethign I have also done on my decently geared GWF and the shocking difference between GF single target DPS and GWF's poor powers cannot be put into words. But I'll try. Not Only do GF powers all deal more than 1k base damage (my cleave deals 1500 base damage in it's power descrption stat block) unlike GWF's. But I also gets an Encounter Knights challenge that doubles the damage of all my attacks against a single target. And yes GF's get moves, like Anvil of Doom that deal as much as or more damage than IBS.
I'm just curious if you have experienced first hand the vast differences between GWF powers and those of other classes. Cause rom what I see from these boards not a Single GWF player that has played other classes would say that a damage buff to GWF is overpowered.
My TR isn't as fun to play, so I don't go on him much. I respect what a TR can do, but while their damage is extremely high, I don't like having to work so hard to survive. I have made more than one GF and wiped them due to not enjoying the gameplay, either. Too slow a mover. Otherwise, feels like playing a GWF with less range and more knockback abilities. I respect healers in any game, and DC's are fun to play, but I'm always more focused on hitting things than watching health bars.
The only issue I've had is CW's. I deleted my first CW 60 due to simple frustration with what I viewed as a very overpowered class (plus, my guild was full of CW's and I wanted to make a DC). CW's are exceptionally powerful, and if there was any class I felt was broken, it is CW.
But I decided rather early on that I was going to focus on being a GWF (barring an addition of a new class that I like more). CW was too easy, and the others have different degrees of difficulty, which I attribute largely to my individual playstyle and preferences. I've seen plenty of crappy CW's, so I can't honestly say it's the class itself that's broken.
Just like I've seen a bunch of ****-good GWF's, despite what the mass of people on the forums seem to want to tell everyone. It's a strong class that has a few glaring weaknesses. Damage, in my opinion, isn't one of them.
When I made my first GWF, Gral, I made a barbarian. Chose my look, my feel, went destroyer, whole works. And I made several posts supporting this more, asking for a damage increase and the like, to help convert GWF to Barbarian better. I had my own preconceived notion, and did not understand where they came up with Great Weapon Fighter.
But something nagged at the back of my mind. See, I love playing DnD, and my memory blows. I had an inkling that I was missing something. So I began reading my own books, and found out what I was missing. GWF wasn't a Barbarian. I realized that I was on the forums posting my opinions, ignorant of the work the devs were using and basing the class on. Looking like an idiot who had no idea about how things worked.
I've changed my tact then. Threat, I feel, is a feasible request. Balanced. But one day we may have barbarians, and what happens to our damage-friendly GWF's then?
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
I just finished a SP, with a group of GF, GF, CW, CW, DC. As an experienced GF I took the role a GWF would play in this group. I went full damage and against Aboleth I soloed him while the rest of the team Took care of adds. Now this is somethign I have also done on my decently geared GWF and the shocking difference between GF single target DPS and GWF's poor powers cannot be put into words. But I'll try. Not Only do GF powers all deal more than 1k base damage (my cleave deals 1500 base damage in it's power descrption stat block) unlike GWF's. But I also gets an Encounter Knights challenge that doubles the damage of all my attacks against a single target. And yes GF's get moves, like Anvil of Doom that deal as much as or more damage than IBS.
Did a TR/GWF combo on spellplague the other day, myself. I was initially working with the two TR's on the boss, but when the GF was pushed off after the first block fell, I switched to tanking. One TR tried to kill adds, the DC got swamped. The other TR stayed on the boss and dodged when boss was away.
Sentinel GWF played properly can tank as well (or better) than a GF in a lot of situations. My poor Roar, on the other hand, is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for pushing things.
I did the tank with Daring Shout, Come and Get it and Roar as my three encounters. You'd be surprised what kind of DR bonus you get with Daring Shout in the right situations.
I hate to brag (not really), but the whole fight was easy. And the GWF hating GF in the group didn't say much after everything was done.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
You didnt' Answer my question. Are you familiar with the powers other classes get compared to a GWF?
I am very Familiar with GWF I have played it every spec full T2's all Rank 7's Formain Greatsword. But then again all my toons are geared. I know GWF can be built to be Defense goons on par with GF. GWF even benefit more from HP recovery Items than GWF as it stacks with Unstoppable. But no matter what you do GWF cannot make threat. And the only reason you were tanking was because not one of the two TR's or DC that was left alive was doing any thing to the adds. All you had to do was run in circles, something a GWF is good at, but still a GWF cannot out kite a GF since they cannot compare to a GF's threat while moving. If you had any CW's in your group, they all would of died with the GF. Or at least switched from DPS to kiting.
My point is there is absolutely nothing a GWF can do that a GF can't do. And in many instances a GF does it better.
Except for a few things.
GWF Has larger area AOE at wills that do less damage than GF's
GWF's sprint can be maintained longer than a GF's Into the fray.
GF's are better at...
At Will Area Damage, Cleave is superior to WMS and Wicked Strike for damage, And everytime a CW uses Arcane singularity and the mobs are grouped nice enough for a GF to exploit the full power of cleave the GWF starts falling behind the GF's damage
Single Target damage they are the 2nd best single target DPS in the game with the right moves.
AOE Encounters and dailies deal more damage and have more control than a GWF's. or if you bring in avalanche of steel a GF's Terryfing impact is faster and much more reliable to use. Plus you can use it while tanking.
GF's buffs are better. Knights Valor is a much better defensive buff than Daring shout it helps the entire party. Daring shouts only helps the GWF because he cannot maintain the threat needed to tank for CW's.
And GF's are superior at running targets down. With At-will charge or an every 6 second encounter Charge GF's can always engage mobs, even faster than a GWF as long as the mobs are within a respectable distance.
GF's have better resistance to CC than a GWF, Block gives you CC and damage immuntiy at the push of a button. Villains Menace daily gives GF Effective unstoppable that deals as much damage as slam upon activation with additional damage boosts for the duration. And since GF's gain AP from blocking, taking damage and dealing damage a GF has superior AP generation to a GWF and basically can turn his daily power into GWF unstoppable, builds the same way and is activated the same way.
Power to Power GF will always win.
Bull's Charge Vs Take down. Bulls charge does more damage has better CC and never misses
Enforced Threat vs Not so Fast. More damage more area (30ft area its like dropping a fireball on yourself when you smack your shield. But no slow.... no loss there.)
Anvil of Doom vs Indomitable battle strike. Similar damage, But Anvil has an 8 second cooldown and deals bonus damage to weak mobs. No multihit capability but you get to use it twice as often and half the time it hits twice as hard.
Knights challenge vs Battle Furor. Knights Challenge is useful Battle furor is just not.
The list goes on and on and on..... There is no end to the failings of the GWF. Yes GWF can be played, yes highly skilled and geared players can help out a team, more so than average members of other classes. but it will never compare to a skilled member of another class. The Devs need to understand this. GWF in Beta was originally designed with the highest base damage of all class as reflected by there higher damage greatswords. But they got nerfed to deal damage on par with the other classat the end of closed Beta. But they got no utility back from that massive loss of Damage. And now with there AP gone they really need the damage back. It's the easiest fix. Or turn them into the 2nd tank class, with threat moves, knockdown moves ect. But doing that will make them nearly identical to GF's
The best a GWF can hope to accomplish over a GF is a slightly higher damage score when fighting mass numbers of adds. Every Other situation a GF comes out on top.
Lobo you tried to compare paper/single style DnD and MMO DnD they are very different because play style on ppl and concept for what is made the game ($$ benefit) so you fail at this point very much.
The base idea for what you play MMO NWO and Single NWN are on huge miles one from other.
Because that in DnD paper you read one thing for GWF and in DnD MMO you look GWF at very different point. Here GWF is AoE DPS and not defender. Do you like this or not never mind. People make Sentinel not just to tank but because is hard to die but when they use it, Sentinel have not enough DPS and most ppl do not want them. When they make Destroyer they goes for DPS but then they are simple DD who die very easy and if they do not play fine they die as CW.
And this things comes from this few nerfs on GWF, why Cryptic do this nerf no one know. They need to nerf DPS on all other or to higher DPS on GWF there is no other way for balance. if Cryptic just give threat on GWF this will make it tank but he is not tank but aoe dps by first design. So you can read your manual as much as you want but this will not help on NWO.
If we want any balance on this game and as you want paper DnD to be more true you must have better communication with Cryptic. Till this become true you and ppl like you that believe in paper DnD will fail.
Conception on one strong fighter with two handed sword is to have very huge DMG at moment we all fail from this point. I make my class because this conception and I am sure that many other ppl do it in same way. So we was lied from Cryptic and we lose our time or/and money which one is like they steal them from us.
I do not care what is written in paper DnD I know what can be damage on target from one dagger and from huge sword and this that I look in this game is stupid. And what can be damage from dagger vs very strong defense type armor and what can be damage from huge sword vs same. So again Cryptic fail at this point very much. GWF must have very high ArP vs high def till dagger must have very low. But what we saw ? TR can have same % ArP as GWF, but wait TR can have higher Crit chance till GWF cannot and till second is normal the first is not.
All classes have just pure DMG and there is no other resist than dmg resist but wait we have magic and where are magic resist ? I can continue but is pointless the game conception have so much fails. So stop to talk for your "paper DnD" there isNOT something like this. Maybe first idea for making this game is started from this but now we just see that Cryptic want just fast money and nothing more...
Or turn them into the 2nd tank class, with threat moves, knockdown moves ect. But doing that will make them nearly identical to GF's
The best a GWF can hope to accomplish over a GF is a slightly higher damage score when fighting mass numbers of adds. Every Other situation a GF comes out on top.
But they are nearly identical with GF's (baring the lack of threat generation, the biggest issue with the class in my opinion). They are both fighters, and by that, both defenders. They do better AOE damage, but not by much. GF's do better single-target damage, but not by much. GF's have slightly higher defense, GWF's have far higher deflect.
And in your list, don't forget slow/immobolize immunity when GWF's sprint, or 3-5 sec damage AND cc immunity when we pop dailies, or Grim Promise that adds up to 15% dr bonus against a single target for 10 seconds when we use crescendo.
The difference here, is that I believe that GWF's don't need to be as broken as they were in Beta. I feel that in general, the requests to get GWF's buffed are either from those with misconceptions about the origins of the class (like myself), or those who liked how uber the class was in beta and have become disenfranchised since.
Too many players, when you take away their obviously broken toys, have no qualms about doing anything they can to get them back. They smear GWF's in their guilds and to everybody that'll listen, telling everyone how broken they are. It's a political campaign, but it looks more like a selfish kid.
"Make me better!"
I'm not going to sit idly by and allow that campaign to run. It doesn't convince anyone who can actually PLAY the class that we're broken. It doesnt' convince the devs that we're broken. It just shines a light on the largest glaring weakness of our class: our childish beta community.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Lobo you tried to compare paper/single style DnD and MMO DnD they are very different because play style on ppl and concept for what is made the game ($$ benefit) so you fail at this point very much.
The base idea for what you play MMO NWO and Single NWN are on huge miles one from other.
Because that in DnD paper you read one thing for GWF and in DnD MMO you look GWF at very different point. Here GWF is AoE DPS and not defender. Do you like this or not never mind. People make Sentinel not just to tank but because is hard to die but when they use it, Sentinel have not enough DPS and most ppl do not want them. When they make Destroyer they goes for DPS but then they are simple DD who die very easy and if they do not play fine they die as CW.
And this things comes from this few nerfs on GWF, why Cryptic do this nerf no one know. They need to nerf DPS on all other or to higher DPS on GWF there is no other way for balance. if Cryptic just give threat on GWF this will make it tank but he is not tank but aoe dps by first design. So you can read your manual as much as you want but this will not help on NWO.
If we want any balance on this game and as you want paper DnD to be more true you must have better communication with Cryptic. Till this become true you and ppl like you that believe in paper DnD will fail.
Conception on one strong fighter with two handed sword is to have very huge DMG at moment we all fail from this point. I make my class because this conception and I am sure that many other ppl do it in same way. So we was lied from Cryptic and we lose our time or/and money which one is like they steal them from us.
I do not care what is written in paper DnD I know what can be damage on target from one dagger and from huge sword and this that I look in this game is stupid. And what can be damage from dagger vs very strong defense type armor and what can be damage from huge sword vs same. So again Cryptic fail at this point very much. GWF must have very high ArP vs high def till dagger must have very low. But what we saw ? TR can have same % ArP as GWF, but wait TR can have higher Crit chance till GWF cannot and till second is normal the first is not.
All classes have just pure DMG and there is no other resist than dmg resist but wait we have magic and where are magic resist ? I can continue but is pointless the game conception have so much fails. So stop to talk for your "paper DnD" there isNOT something like this. Maybe first idea for making this game is started from this but now we just see that Cryptic want just fast money and nothing more...
So let me clarify: A huge fighter with a two handed sword has to have super high damage, and if they don't, the class fails. And I gathered in there that people hate playing sentinels because they don't do enough damage. Did I get those two points right?
Because I find your argument completely without anything but opinion. This doesn't mean the class fails, this means you fail at the class. This doesn't mean it makes no sense, it means that it doesn't make sense to you. Sadly, this is very common with game forums.
It's like some of the posters I know going to CW forums and saying: "We need more tank, because we can't take enough damage!" Common MMO practice, you know. Not a DnD thing, which fails, right? So why not give the CW's more defenses? Nobody likes playing MMO's and having to rely on others to constantly keep their weak, frail forms alive all the time.
Protest for a Barbarian, Goldheart. Your two-handed glass-cannon. Learn what the difference is between defenders and strikers. Learn where this games roots and origins lie. You may not care for paper and pen, because obviously you think everything not copied off of WoW is "fail", but I do care.
Read my signature link on top of it. Sadly, I have more facts to back up my claim than you have to go against it.
Oh, and to your points on what IS and what ISN'T: We ARE a superior defender. We are NOT a superior damage dealer. Our concept material says we are a superior defender. In game right at this moment, we are a superior defender.
At what point do you get confused? That the game wasn't perfectly like they wanted it in BETA. BETA! Um, the testing phase?
I know you have another language, but do you know what BETA is?
Fail on your part, Goldheart. Epic fail.
On an aside: specific defenses to magic, physical, psionic, etc ... would be nice.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
edited October 2013
Too much time focused on where people land in the DPS meter...
As a CW, I tend to thank my GF's that can tank and allow me more time to focus on pure DPS output rather than avoiding incoming damage.
As a GF, I tend to take pride in my ability to aggro and keep mobs off my damage dealers, this allowing them to be more effective at their task.
Personally, I don't care about the damage meter, I care about the effectiveness of the overall party. The problem with GWF's is that they are the best at being flexible, but that isn't really needed in higher end parties. It's great with newer groups, but with seasoned vet's, it looses out (in general).
@cyan:
How the GF will gain AP for taking damage? I don't receive it!
Second: Slam has utility for ALL. Decreased damage + 2x threat is not nothing.
Third: Block gives you CC and damage immuntiy at the push of a button
That is a fail statement. Some CC go through it. Additional you get a fast break Guard against multiple enemies.
Fourth: avalanche of steel vs GF's Terryfing impact.
Terry will lose. It has a long casting time - in which mobs can move/you got cced. Second a line, that is really small and third a 5 hitcap. Avalanche has a large impactzone, give you damage + cc immunity + a good damage to all mobs arround. If you compare powers, Avalanche vs. VM. VM lose in this. It only give you a bit cc immunity more in duration, but fail total in damage, damage immunity and the cc itself!
So you only compare broken powerthings.
Fifth: How Anvil have a 8s CD? I never get into that range with 11s+!
So please show it with pictures, because so as you stated it, most of your arguments are impossible and so wrong!
It says right in the GF tool tip, When you mouse over your action points that GF receive AP form taking and dealing damage.
The only CC that goes through block is the same CC that goes through unstoppable Push, Powers, those **** Formian totemists in MC. Block gives you the same CC immunity as all CC immunity powers. As long as you dont get hit from behind.
Slam utility has been universally dismissed byt the GWF community, no one endorses it outside the Valindra fight. And the only reason Slam got 2x threat was because its damage was reduce by more than half. SO yeah all threat + moves on a GWF are nothing. And if you compare Villains menace threat to slam a GF has at least +200% threat on it and all other moves instead of a mear +100% threat on a single daily.
You are very confused about avalanche of steel then. It is the slowest daily in the game you cannot say Terrifying impact is slow compared to it. And if Avalanche is so good why don't GWF's use it? Simple it takes so long a GWF is better off spamming at-wills to deal damage than to use that daily. A Daily that has no hit cap and goes off only after the CW's has killed all the small adds is useless. Avalanche of steel has one use. To engage and pull group of mobs, it sucks in boss fights and against mobs that summon monsters or ambushes. Terrifying impact is alot more useful in all situations.
Trying to post a pick of My Anvil cooldown time, Granted I have alot of recovery. But I can't figure it out how to on these boards, how do I change an image into a URL?. Care to explain it? Never been one for doin avatars or posting pics but I will.
The over nerfed slam, in my opinion. But I understand why they did that ring of nerfs. It was a combination of AP building (roar with no target cap, plus other aoe like wicked strike), damage/cc immunity (steel defense and 5 second immunity with daily), massive damage output (slam with no target cap and allowing the player to use at-wills while the daily is running, fasting daily as well), adding to huge determination building (destroyer capstone building determination off of damage done), ending with unstoppable 50% DR bonus and cc immunity.
This extreme min-max combination, tied with high recovery, allowed a player to continually swap between spamming Slam (5 seconds damage/cc immune) to popping unstoppable (another 8 seconds CC immune and 50% damage resists, plus a huge health regen), to spamming another Slam. With the player using roar and wicked strike in between to devastating effect. A broken combo, that the devs didn't predict would be used that way I'm guessing.
So they nerfed slam to do less damage, because the player can use at-wills and encounters while the daily is active. I get it. Sadly, all GWF dailies are pretty poor for top-end damage. I will admit that much easily.
They nerfed the hell out of AP generation across the board, making us use less dailies. And our dailies already suck. So I and many GWF's seem to only use dailies for utility purposes and reserve damage dealing to encounters and at-wills. It appears a silent buff happened recently to our AP generation, but nowhere close to what it was, and not giving us more than a few 1000 points over 10 minute fights, so almost negligible.
They nerfed Roar by giving it a target cap, significantly reducing it's capabilities as a determination generator and AP generator. Roar is still used as an interrupt, but it could be a better push or threat builder. It could be improved without upsetting our Determination/AP generation.
As with most nerfs in most every game I've played, instead of nerfing lightly, they nerfed heavily and are steadily repairing, slowly, to bring us back up to par.
My argument for the nerf, on the other hand, is that it set an unreasonably high expectation on GWF damage performance during beta, which still carries over today. It's like players using the animation glitch or stacking the broken tene enchants. Yes, using the WMS animation glitch, a player can still hit top of the scoreboard (barring great rogues). But it's not INTENDED to be that way. Nor were the damage output and damage immunities from the mentioned combo INTENDED. Great? Sure!!! Made GWF an awesome class to play? Absolutely. But not where they were going with it.
Did they push the class too far the other way? I think I would agree that they did. Our dailies have great CC, but otherwise suck for damage. I'd like to see a little of that back.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
It says right in the GF tool tip, When you mouse over your action points that GF receive AP form taking and dealing damage.
Never even highlighted that. Says "Great Weapon Fighters gain action points by dealing damage and using encounter powers."
Also, since I'm invoking ...
"A Control Wizard gains action points by dealing damage."
"A Devoted Cleric gains action points by healing or dealing damage."
"A Trickster Rogue gains action points by dealing damage."
Hmm. I can understand why TR's just focus on dealing damage. But it strikes me as odd that GWF's have the line 'using encounter powers' and control wizards have absolutely nothing about controlling anything. Odd.
And does mighty leap boost my ap? Just tested that, and it seems that only encounter powers that SAY they boost AP boost AP.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Out. Figured since it's got a fairly large damage AOE, would be hard to test it and not do any damage whatsoever.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
When I started my GF alt I thought it would be way better in terms of tankyness. I was right. But thought it would lose in terms of damage. Boys was I wrong. I even thought the GF's At-will would only hit one foe. Boy was I naive.
The skirmishes were also very different.
GF: Boss pops, I run at him. Me. Alone. The other ppl stay behind.
GWF: Boss pops, let's avoid it and any kind of red ground, now is there a weal lone add somewhere? Ok, found one, let's try and hit it from behind. **** it has more HP than a trash mob zombie/drow, can some TR help killing it?
GWF: Boss pops, let's avoid it and any kind of red ground, now is there a weal lone add somewhere? Ok, found one, let's try and hit it from behind. **** it has more HP than a trash mob zombie/drow, can some TR help killing it?
If you're Instigator spec, then I can see you moving to the adds, instead of the boss.
If you're Destroyer spec, you can easily (and usually should) be on the boss himself (depending on party composition of course).
If you're Sentinel spec, you laugh at red circles and stand in them intentionally to increase Determination gain.
Just saying your opinion here, in my opinion, is in error and a very basic misconception of the GWF class.
The AP generation nerf was because a GWF could be immune to damage for 4 seconds every 7 seconds in a large pack of mobs.
For a brief recap. Rush in and aggro then AoS. Land. Hit NSF - IBS - Roar. Back into the air with AoS. I still don't understand why people hate AoS. I can achieve 16-18k crits with a CW debuffing. Our AP generation is still trash. I am rolling a TR now and all I can do is shake my head at GWF poor AP generation.
The best we can do as GWF is use IBS and Punishing Charge for AP generation in a heavy mob fight.
It says right in the GF tool tip, When you mouse over your action points that GF receive AP form taking and dealing damage.
The only CC that goes through block is the same CC that goes through unstoppable Push, Powers, those **** Formian totemists in MC. Block gives you the same CC immunity as all CC immunity powers. As long as you dont get hit from behind.
Slam utility has been universally dismissed byt the GWF community, no one endorses it outside the Valindra fight. And the only reason Slam got 2x threat was because its damage was reduce by more than half. SO yeah all threat + moves on a GWF are nothing. And if you compare Villains menace threat to slam a GF has at least +200% threat on it and all other moves instead of a mear +100% threat on a single daily.
You are very confused about avalanche of steel then. It is the slowest daily in the game you cannot say Terrifying impact is slow compared to it. And if Avalanche is so good why don't GWF's use it? Simple it takes so long a GWF is better off spamming at-wills to deal damage than to use that daily. A Daily that has no hit cap and goes off only after the CW's has killed all the small adds is useless. Avalanche of steel has one use. To engage and pull group of mobs, it sucks in boss fights and against mobs that summon monsters or ambushes. Terrifying impact is alot more useful in all situations.
Trying to post a pick of My Anvil cooldown time, Granted I have alot of recovery. But I can't figure it out how to on these boards, how do I change an image into a URL?. Care to explain it? Never been one for doin avatars or posting pics but I will.
First of all: I think you misunderstand my comparing. You can't compare skills that even not have the same base.
Block can't be activated if you get cced. Unstoppable you can do it on most cc - if you have enough determination.
Block can't avoid attacks from behind - Unstoppable don't care about from were the attacks come.
Block slow you down - Unstoppable not.
Block don't let you use anything else the block at-wills. Unstoppable let you all do.
Block get interrupted by Chill - Unstoppable not.
And don't tell anything if you don't have tested it. I don't get AP from consuming damage. Only Tactician tree with last feat Martial Mastery maybe get it. All other not. So you need to post a picture(at imgur.com you can upload it and share the link of the picture) for gaining AP with consuming damage. If not it's only a lie and i told everyone that argue so a liar.
If community is stupid with one class, is the class itself BS? Don't call for the mass that one is broken. Oh the early humanity told everyone as a witch that stated that the earth is a ball and burn them. And what is the earth? Not was the 99%+ believe in that century...
Slam has to much utility(enable you to use all skills while it runs, slow down enemies, damage them, decrease their damage AND has an interrupting first strike) for good damage. If you and other don't check it, it's your problem. The I-win button daily with 1M damage, 100% CC resistance, 100% damage resistance, slow downs, attacker damage decrease and so on is BS.
I compare VM with AoS, because both hit in a circle. Both have no cap, give you CC-immunity(okay AoS only for it's animation). That's more points as AoS have with Terri. Terri: 5 hitcap, linehits. Bug out on AS(don't know if AoS it do too). Don't have CC-immunity, but also prone. That's more points against comparing it as for it!
Terri is slow independent of comparing. I miss sometimes mobs - because they move - or in worst case because of AS-bug.
The dailies of GWF are so bad(maybe for damage), because they have so many advantages. Advantages, that not every like or understand.
Last: AP gain is maybe not so bad im thinking. Maybe i do it right, or you do it wrong. That needs to figure out what - or Im imagine it better as it really is.
Oh, and to your points on what IS and what ISN'T: We ARE a superior defender. We are NOT a superior damage dealer. Our concept material says we are a superior defender. In game right at this moment, we are a superior defender.
Bla bla bla...
I said that we are AoE DPS but not superior DD. Learn to read.
Your concept material said that we are defenders I see other things in reality.
Protest for a Barbarian, Goldheart. Your two-handed glass-cannon. Learn what the difference is between defenders and strikers. Learn where this games roots and origins lie. You may not care for paper and pen, because obviously you think everything not copied off of WoW is "fail", but I do care.
I look at image on screen and I like screen to show me what I do in game. And there I see one strong man with two-handed sword. If you can said on this image ... defender I cannot.
Now you can read your manual and to said what you want and to continue to lie your eye/brain.
I am happy that I find one game different than WoW, but I play more than 1 MMO before this and I do not fail on this point. But this is other story.
Read my signature link on top of it. Sadly, I have more facts to back up my claim than you have to go against it.
Read your signature as much as you want. I prefer to play because your signature text's will help me with NOTHING in game.
Because I find your argument completely without anything but opinion. This doesn't mean the class fails, this means you fail at the class. This doesn't mean it makes no sense, it means that it doesn't make sense to you. Sadly, this is very common with game forums.
I said enough as options and suggestions on forum and I do not like to repeat myself. Class do not fail... much. It have potential.
And the sadly part here is your cry for changes here in forum which one Cryptic will read but... not today.
My suggestion is to you as in my before post, play the game, help the ppl (if you can and want) and enjoy on the game. All other is pointless. If you look on all games that PWI manage there are all the same **** which one show me that they just want fast money and nothing more. If they do something they want to have profit, big profit.
And do not worry for me, I do not fail in the game if I do not like it I have few MMOs where I can back at any time and to continue to play them.
Bla bla bla...
I said that we are AoE DPS but not superior DD. Learn to read.
Your concept material said that we are defenders I see other things in reality.
I look at image on screen and I like screen to show me what I do in game. And there I see one strong man with two-handed sword. If you can said on this image ... defender I cannot.
Now you can read your manual and to said what you want and to continue to lie your eye/brain.
I am happy that I find one game different than WoW, but I play more than 1 MMO before this and I do not fail on this point. But this is other story.
Read your signature as much as you want. I prefer to play because your signature text's will help me with NOTHING in game.
I said enough as options and suggestions on forum and I do not like to repeat myself. Class do not fail... much. It have potential.
And the sadly part here is your cry for changes here in forum which one Cryptic will read but... not today.
My suggestion is to you as in my before post, play the game, help the ppl (if you can and want) and enjoy on the game. All other is pointless. If you look on all games that PWI manage there are all the same **** which one show me that they just want fast money and nothing more. If they do something they want to have profit, big profit.
And do not worry for me, I do not fail in the game if I do not like it I have few MMOs where I can back at any time and to continue to play them.
So, again, let's cover your poorly written points:
- You don't care about the source material and how it says that a Great Weapon Fighter is a Defender.
- You don't care that in game, since the game legitimately went live, a Great Weapon Fighter has far more significant tank than any other class besides the other fighter, a Guardian Fighter.
- You don't care that in PvP a Great Weapon Fighter excels above all others on point defense due to their huge ability to soak damage.
So what point are you making?
- They are big guys with a long sword, and thus, should be damage.
Fair. Your opinion. I disagree with it. Honestly, I think the devs have proven they agree with me more.
Cryptic probably isn't reading these forums. We will have to see how much posts like this combined with dev responses like this:
Question from Xaber
The idea of a Dungeon Delve Key has been raised in the forums. A key that would procide DD rewards during non-DD times, for more flexibility for players. Is this something we might be able to expect in the future?
---
TheSquez: Yeah this is something that we are considering now as well
TheSquez: we will likely be doing something soon for this
TheSquez: whether it is doing a DD key
TheSquez: or some other method to expand the players ability to get the sweet loot
TheSquez: we are discussing right now the way we want to do this
TheSquez: but it is getting actioned on currently
pay out in the future. I think we ARE being heard, though, just not as much as we all would like.
Oh, and I am playing and learning and helping others. I surf forums between queue's or on down times. Thanks for the advice though!
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
If you're Instigator spec, then I can see you moving to the adds, instead of the boss.
If you're Destroyer spec, you can easily (and usually should) be on the boss himself (depending on party composition of course).
If you're Sentinel spec, you laugh at red circles and stand in them intentionally to increase Determination gain.
Just saying your opinion here, in my opinion, is in error and a very basic misconception of the GWF class.
:cool:
On my sentinel, unless the boss has some form of knockback or knockdown, I stay in the red circle. Ain't no reason not to, considering that it's not going to hurt me much. I've broken off fighting the boss before just to go get hit by a red circle for another unstoppable, hehehe ...
Sadly, it sounds to me as if Vortix44 may just not synch well with the class and it's many possible uses. At least not as well as he does with GF. I don't think this is proof the class is broken, just proof that he's better off playing a GF than a GWF.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Comments
As a separate point: the target cap is mostly due to how closely they are trying to hold this game to actual DnD. Most fighter attacks, specifically with two-handed weapons, had a hit limitation of three-to-five targets in a cone damage area, not true 360 aoe.
The real issue in that translation from 4e to here, is that the damage is not as comparable as it should be (higher base weapon damage, highest damage roles versus the broader AOE of magic). The fighter has fewer targets he can hit, has to move around and approach the enemy, and despite not being a striker, still hit like a brick house falling off a mountain.
My only logical explanation for the discrepancy is that, due to the lack of understanding in the playerbase about the power of ranged attacks and the issue with PvP being objective based, all the fighters had to take a nerf in beta.
Then, of course, they nerfed CW AOE, which really skewed the system even further.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Let's just go ahead and say it was the erroneously misuse option, sound good? :cool:
My Guild mates do not provide 'Charity' (the voluntary giving of help, typically in the form of money, to those in need) to me as a GWF. I am a useful part of a team, and my Guild recognizes that as I also recognize their worth.
Just wanted to clarify that for you, and everyone for that matter, so keep rocking and enjoy the game as you will!
I'm often left wondering if the players who believe that GWF's are useless, don't realize that they are the one's telling everyone else that GWF's are useless. If it isn't possible that the reason they don't get picked, isn't their very attitude.
I'll admit, I don't see a lot of 'We need one GWF for Karundax' going on in LFG channel. And it is easier, by far, to get into dungeons with guildies (that said, it ain't quite easy for TR's, either, and they have a role ... there's just too many of them).
But a good GWF with a good attitude can make all the difference.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Just skimming some of your posts and myself as a long time D&D player of ever edition, I find flaws in your logic. 4E made the "Tank" Fight by giving them the ability to hit any mob that ignored them. It had very little to do with taking allies hits and interupting melee attacks. I recall it was the Ranger who was king of interrupting enemy attacks. And it was the Spellsword that was all about shielding allies with his marks. Paladin did radiant damage to marked targets that ignored him.
These are concepts that really can't come into play that well in the MMO aspect. And if they did it would require alot more rework of the game than you could ever hope to see. Cryptic has a hard time getting the basics of MMO, Tank, DPS and Heal strat down that I doubt they could handle anything as complex as you suggest.
Neverwinter just can't support the vast Utility powers that 4E characters received.
I have read many posts about players wanting a change in dungeon mechanics but that will never happen either old dungeons will stay the same. New ones might be different. Just like it was in Champions Online. In that game old dungeons became completely obsolete and forgotten about in order to make way for new content. Cryptic never rehashes the old stuff. Why do you think those dungeons are still bug tastic while MC's bugs are quickly fixed?
If your going to try to keep up this hopeless fight to save the GWF, I suggest you speak in terms the devs can understand. Tweak powers +damage - damage, threat control or mitigation. Things that work easy in numbers and programming. Concepts of what actual D&D is will never work.
And if you succeed in getting a change made I'll bring my GWF back into the game. But right now I'm still waiting to see how the fighters fall when the next class is released.
Everyone understood what I meant by charity. everyone knows that I'm talking about charity and everyone knows that the topic is legitimate in its intention , has now exaggerations on both sides .
*gwf were few who've been playing this last month , and even the class seems to have won a " ap underground" . good job to the author of the topic. all win . gwf and never winter
lobo, you created a topic about the drug reaping strike , adding the idea of poll , making the discussion more democratic and clean . good job , hope to fruition . I have a particular interest .
I have a very specific vision of gwf and am trying to adapt the recent changes in "my way " , but I recognize the value of all people , through trial and error , created good gwf , including sharing the work here in Forun . good job.
good job, guys . good job .
Slows are pretty useless in this game, if "Not so Fast" was a root it would be slightly more usefull.
"Mighty leap" is highly situational, normally you're faster just sprinting there.
The push on "Roar" is hardly even noticeable.
"Daring Shout" could be usefull if it was a directional "Enforce Threat".
"Come and Get It" has a much to small range to be noticable in groups.
"Weapon Master Strike" could reduce damage resistance for all party member's At Wills
and "Reaping Strike" should go compleatly back to the drawing board, it's just embarassing.
Removing the targets cap is probably the easiest option in terms of programming. And as for repositionning, yes there is the repositionning to reach the targets that all the other classes keep moving away, but also the defensive repositionning to get out of red ground, no choice when a mere add like the Bodyguard in Aberrant Assault hits for 50k.
The target cap doesn't bother me at all, at least for actual strikes (unlike roar). Nor does the damage reduction on subsequent targets. These are both rather true to form with the paper-and-pen styles.
The target reduction for CW's does bother me a bit. I hate suggesting changes for other classes, but I often feel that they should be able to affect everything in a given area, with no reduction of damage or CW on the number. Just, not as powerfully as they currently do.
I'm not big on increasing the damage output on GWF either. It would be nice, but I think it would also be unbalanced. Simply allow us a few core powers and feats which we can choose to generate higher threat, and make us better defenders. Again, the balance here is that melee should do superior damage to a few targets, moreso in my mind than magic (good damage to a lot of targets), and I think the considerable break in that balance is, again, CW's.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
I just finished a SP, with a group of GF, GF, CW, CW, DC. As an experienced GF I took the role a GWF would play in this group. I went full damage and against Aboleth I soloed him while the rest of the team Took care of adds. Now this is somethign I have also done on my decently geared GWF and the shocking difference between GF single target DPS and GWF's poor powers cannot be put into words. But I'll try. Not Only do GF powers all deal more than 1k base damage (my cleave deals 1500 base damage in it's power descrption stat block) unlike GWF's. But I also gets an Encounter Knights challenge that doubles the damage of all my attacks against a single target. And yes GF's get moves, like Anvil of Doom that deal as much as or more damage than IBS.
I'm just curious if you have experienced first hand the vast differences between GWF powers and those of other classes. Cause rom what I see from these boards not a Single GWF player that has played other classes would say that a damage buff to GWF is overpowered.
My TR isn't as fun to play, so I don't go on him much. I respect what a TR can do, but while their damage is extremely high, I don't like having to work so hard to survive. I have made more than one GF and wiped them due to not enjoying the gameplay, either. Too slow a mover. Otherwise, feels like playing a GWF with less range and more knockback abilities. I respect healers in any game, and DC's are fun to play, but I'm always more focused on hitting things than watching health bars.
The only issue I've had is CW's. I deleted my first CW 60 due to simple frustration with what I viewed as a very overpowered class (plus, my guild was full of CW's and I wanted to make a DC). CW's are exceptionally powerful, and if there was any class I felt was broken, it is CW.
But I decided rather early on that I was going to focus on being a GWF (barring an addition of a new class that I like more). CW was too easy, and the others have different degrees of difficulty, which I attribute largely to my individual playstyle and preferences. I've seen plenty of crappy CW's, so I can't honestly say it's the class itself that's broken.
Just like I've seen a bunch of ****-good GWF's, despite what the mass of people on the forums seem to want to tell everyone. It's a strong class that has a few glaring weaknesses. Damage, in my opinion, isn't one of them.
When I made my first GWF, Gral, I made a barbarian. Chose my look, my feel, went destroyer, whole works. And I made several posts supporting this more, asking for a damage increase and the like, to help convert GWF to Barbarian better. I had my own preconceived notion, and did not understand where they came up with Great Weapon Fighter.
But something nagged at the back of my mind. See, I love playing DnD, and my memory blows. I had an inkling that I was missing something. So I began reading my own books, and found out what I was missing. GWF wasn't a Barbarian. I realized that I was on the forums posting my opinions, ignorant of the work the devs were using and basing the class on. Looking like an idiot who had no idea about how things worked.
I've changed my tact then. Threat, I feel, is a feasible request. Balanced. But one day we may have barbarians, and what happens to our damage-friendly GWF's then?
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Did a TR/GWF combo on spellplague the other day, myself. I was initially working with the two TR's on the boss, but when the GF was pushed off after the first block fell, I switched to tanking. One TR tried to kill adds, the DC got swamped. The other TR stayed on the boss and dodged when boss was away.
Sentinel GWF played properly can tank as well (or better) than a GF in a lot of situations. My poor Roar, on the other hand, is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for pushing things.
I did the tank with Daring Shout, Come and Get it and Roar as my three encounters. You'd be surprised what kind of DR bonus you get with Daring Shout in the right situations.
I hate to brag (not really), but the whole fight was easy. And the GWF hating GF in the group didn't say much after everything was done.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
I am very Familiar with GWF I have played it every spec full T2's all Rank 7's Formain Greatsword. But then again all my toons are geared. I know GWF can be built to be Defense goons on par with GF. GWF even benefit more from HP recovery Items than GWF as it stacks with Unstoppable. But no matter what you do GWF cannot make threat. And the only reason you were tanking was because not one of the two TR's or DC that was left alive was doing any thing to the adds. All you had to do was run in circles, something a GWF is good at, but still a GWF cannot out kite a GF since they cannot compare to a GF's threat while moving. If you had any CW's in your group, they all would of died with the GF. Or at least switched from DPS to kiting.
My point is there is absolutely nothing a GWF can do that a GF can't do. And in many instances a GF does it better.
Except for a few things.
GWF Has larger area AOE at wills that do less damage than GF's
GWF's sprint can be maintained longer than a GF's Into the fray.
GF's are better at...
At Will Area Damage, Cleave is superior to WMS and Wicked Strike for damage, And everytime a CW uses Arcane singularity and the mobs are grouped nice enough for a GF to exploit the full power of cleave the GWF starts falling behind the GF's damage
Single Target damage they are the 2nd best single target DPS in the game with the right moves.
AOE Encounters and dailies deal more damage and have more control than a GWF's. or if you bring in avalanche of steel a GF's Terryfing impact is faster and much more reliable to use. Plus you can use it while tanking.
GF's buffs are better. Knights Valor is a much better defensive buff than Daring shout it helps the entire party. Daring shouts only helps the GWF because he cannot maintain the threat needed to tank for CW's.
And GF's are superior at running targets down. With At-will charge or an every 6 second encounter Charge GF's can always engage mobs, even faster than a GWF as long as the mobs are within a respectable distance.
GF's have better resistance to CC than a GWF, Block gives you CC and damage immuntiy at the push of a button. Villains Menace daily gives GF Effective unstoppable that deals as much damage as slam upon activation with additional damage boosts for the duration. And since GF's gain AP from blocking, taking damage and dealing damage a GF has superior AP generation to a GWF and basically can turn his daily power into GWF unstoppable, builds the same way and is activated the same way.
Power to Power GF will always win.
Bull's Charge Vs Take down. Bulls charge does more damage has better CC and never misses
Enforced Threat vs Not so Fast. More damage more area (30ft area its like dropping a fireball on yourself when you smack your shield. But no slow.... no loss there.)
Anvil of Doom vs Indomitable battle strike. Similar damage, But Anvil has an 8 second cooldown and deals bonus damage to weak mobs. No multihit capability but you get to use it twice as often and half the time it hits twice as hard.
Knights challenge vs Battle Furor. Knights Challenge is useful Battle furor is just not.
The list goes on and on and on..... There is no end to the failings of the GWF. Yes GWF can be played, yes highly skilled and geared players can help out a team, more so than average members of other classes. but it will never compare to a skilled member of another class. The Devs need to understand this. GWF in Beta was originally designed with the highest base damage of all class as reflected by there higher damage greatswords. But they got nerfed to deal damage on par with the other classat the end of closed Beta. But they got no utility back from that massive loss of Damage. And now with there AP gone they really need the damage back. It's the easiest fix. Or turn them into the 2nd tank class, with threat moves, knockdown moves ect. But doing that will make them nearly identical to GF's
The best a GWF can hope to accomplish over a GF is a slightly higher damage score when fighting mass numbers of adds. Every Other situation a GF comes out on top.
The base idea for what you play MMO NWO and Single NWN are on huge miles one from other.
Because that in DnD paper you read one thing for GWF and in DnD MMO you look GWF at very different point. Here GWF is AoE DPS and not defender. Do you like this or not never mind. People make Sentinel not just to tank but because is hard to die but when they use it, Sentinel have not enough DPS and most ppl do not want them. When they make Destroyer they goes for DPS but then they are simple DD who die very easy and if they do not play fine they die as CW.
And this things comes from this few nerfs on GWF, why Cryptic do this nerf no one know. They need to nerf DPS on all other or to higher DPS on GWF there is no other way for balance. if Cryptic just give threat on GWF this will make it tank but he is not tank but aoe dps by first design. So you can read your manual as much as you want but this will not help on NWO.
If we want any balance on this game and as you want paper DnD to be more true you must have better communication with Cryptic. Till this become true you and ppl like you that believe in paper DnD will fail.
Conception on one strong fighter with two handed sword is to have very huge DMG at moment we all fail from this point. I make my class because this conception and I am sure that many other ppl do it in same way. So we was lied from Cryptic and we lose our time or/and money which one is like they steal them from us.
I do not care what is written in paper DnD I know what can be damage on target from one dagger and from huge sword and this that I look in this game is stupid. And what can be damage from dagger vs very strong defense type armor and what can be damage from huge sword vs same. So again Cryptic fail at this point very much. GWF must have very high ArP vs high def till dagger must have very low. But what we saw ? TR can have same % ArP as GWF, but wait TR can have higher Crit chance till GWF cannot and till second is normal the first is not.
All classes have just pure DMG and there is no other resist than dmg resist but wait we have magic and where are magic resist ? I can continue but is pointless the game conception have so much fails. So stop to talk for your "paper DnD" there isNOT something like this. Maybe first idea for making this game is started from this but now we just see that Cryptic want just fast money and nothing more...
But they are nearly identical with GF's (baring the lack of threat generation, the biggest issue with the class in my opinion). They are both fighters, and by that, both defenders. They do better AOE damage, but not by much. GF's do better single-target damage, but not by much. GF's have slightly higher defense, GWF's have far higher deflect.
And in your list, don't forget slow/immobolize immunity when GWF's sprint, or 3-5 sec damage AND cc immunity when we pop dailies, or Grim Promise that adds up to 15% dr bonus against a single target for 10 seconds when we use crescendo.
The difference here, is that I believe that GWF's don't need to be as broken as they were in Beta. I feel that in general, the requests to get GWF's buffed are either from those with misconceptions about the origins of the class (like myself), or those who liked how uber the class was in beta and have become disenfranchised since.
Too many players, when you take away their obviously broken toys, have no qualms about doing anything they can to get them back. They smear GWF's in their guilds and to everybody that'll listen, telling everyone how broken they are. It's a political campaign, but it looks more like a selfish kid.
"Make me better!"
I'm not going to sit idly by and allow that campaign to run. It doesn't convince anyone who can actually PLAY the class that we're broken. It doesnt' convince the devs that we're broken. It just shines a light on the largest glaring weakness of our class: our childish beta community.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
So let me clarify: A huge fighter with a two handed sword has to have super high damage, and if they don't, the class fails. And I gathered in there that people hate playing sentinels because they don't do enough damage. Did I get those two points right?
Because I find your argument completely without anything but opinion. This doesn't mean the class fails, this means you fail at the class. This doesn't mean it makes no sense, it means that it doesn't make sense to you. Sadly, this is very common with game forums.
It's like some of the posters I know going to CW forums and saying: "We need more tank, because we can't take enough damage!" Common MMO practice, you know. Not a DnD thing, which fails, right? So why not give the CW's more defenses? Nobody likes playing MMO's and having to rely on others to constantly keep their weak, frail forms alive all the time.
Protest for a Barbarian, Goldheart. Your two-handed glass-cannon. Learn what the difference is between defenders and strikers. Learn where this games roots and origins lie. You may not care for paper and pen, because obviously you think everything not copied off of WoW is "fail", but I do care.
Read my signature link on top of it. Sadly, I have more facts to back up my claim than you have to go against it.
Oh, and to your points on what IS and what ISN'T: We ARE a superior defender. We are NOT a superior damage dealer. Our concept material says we are a superior defender. In game right at this moment, we are a superior defender.
At what point do you get confused? That the game wasn't perfectly like they wanted it in BETA. BETA! Um, the testing phase?
I know you have another language, but do you know what BETA is?
Fail on your part, Goldheart. Epic fail.
On an aside: specific defenses to magic, physical, psionic, etc ... would be nice.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
As a CW, I tend to thank my GF's that can tank and allow me more time to focus on pure DPS output rather than avoiding incoming damage.
As a GF, I tend to take pride in my ability to aggro and keep mobs off my damage dealers, this allowing them to be more effective at their task.
Personally, I don't care about the damage meter, I care about the effectiveness of the overall party. The problem with GWF's is that they are the best at being flexible, but that isn't really needed in higher end parties. It's great with newer groups, but with seasoned vet's, it looses out (in general).
How the GF will gain AP for taking damage? I don't receive it!
Second: Slam has utility for ALL. Decreased damage + 2x threat is not nothing.
Third: Block gives you CC and damage immuntiy at the push of a button
That is a fail statement. Some CC go through it. Additional you get a fast break Guard against multiple enemies.
Fourth: avalanche of steel vs GF's Terryfing impact.
Terry will lose. It has a long casting time - in which mobs can move/you got cced. Second a line, that is really small and third a 5 hitcap. Avalanche has a large impactzone, give you damage + cc immunity + a good damage to all mobs arround. If you compare powers, Avalanche vs. VM. VM lose in this. It only give you a bit cc immunity more in duration, but fail total in damage, damage immunity and the cc itself!
So you only compare broken powerthings.
Fifth: How Anvil have a 8s CD? I never get into that range with 11s+!
So please show it with pictures, because so as you stated it, most of your arguments are impossible and so wrong!
The only CC that goes through block is the same CC that goes through unstoppable Push, Powers, those **** Formian totemists in MC. Block gives you the same CC immunity as all CC immunity powers. As long as you dont get hit from behind.
Slam utility has been universally dismissed byt the GWF community, no one endorses it outside the Valindra fight. And the only reason Slam got 2x threat was because its damage was reduce by more than half. SO yeah all threat + moves on a GWF are nothing. And if you compare Villains menace threat to slam a GF has at least +200% threat on it and all other moves instead of a mear +100% threat on a single daily.
You are very confused about avalanche of steel then. It is the slowest daily in the game you cannot say Terrifying impact is slow compared to it. And if Avalanche is so good why don't GWF's use it? Simple it takes so long a GWF is better off spamming at-wills to deal damage than to use that daily. A Daily that has no hit cap and goes off only after the CW's has killed all the small adds is useless. Avalanche of steel has one use. To engage and pull group of mobs, it sucks in boss fights and against mobs that summon monsters or ambushes. Terrifying impact is alot more useful in all situations.
Trying to post a pick of My Anvil cooldown time, Granted I have alot of recovery. But I can't figure it out how to on these boards, how do I change an image into a URL?. Care to explain it? Never been one for doin avatars or posting pics but I will.
This extreme min-max combination, tied with high recovery, allowed a player to continually swap between spamming Slam (5 seconds damage/cc immune) to popping unstoppable (another 8 seconds CC immune and 50% damage resists, plus a huge health regen), to spamming another Slam. With the player using roar and wicked strike in between to devastating effect. A broken combo, that the devs didn't predict would be used that way I'm guessing.
So they nerfed slam to do less damage, because the player can use at-wills and encounters while the daily is active. I get it. Sadly, all GWF dailies are pretty poor for top-end damage. I will admit that much easily.
They nerfed the hell out of AP generation across the board, making us use less dailies. And our dailies already suck. So I and many GWF's seem to only use dailies for utility purposes and reserve damage dealing to encounters and at-wills. It appears a silent buff happened recently to our AP generation, but nowhere close to what it was, and not giving us more than a few 1000 points over 10 minute fights, so almost negligible.
They nerfed Roar by giving it a target cap, significantly reducing it's capabilities as a determination generator and AP generator. Roar is still used as an interrupt, but it could be a better push or threat builder. It could be improved without upsetting our Determination/AP generation.
As with most nerfs in most every game I've played, instead of nerfing lightly, they nerfed heavily and are steadily repairing, slowly, to bring us back up to par.
My argument for the nerf, on the other hand, is that it set an unreasonably high expectation on GWF damage performance during beta, which still carries over today. It's like players using the animation glitch or stacking the broken tene enchants. Yes, using the WMS animation glitch, a player can still hit top of the scoreboard (barring great rogues). But it's not INTENDED to be that way. Nor were the damage output and damage immunities from the mentioned combo INTENDED. Great? Sure!!! Made GWF an awesome class to play? Absolutely. But not where they were going with it.
Did they push the class too far the other way? I think I would agree that they did. Our dailies have great CC, but otherwise suck for damage. I'd like to see a little of that back.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Never even highlighted that. Says "Great Weapon Fighters gain action points by dealing damage and using encounter powers."
Also, since I'm invoking ...
"A Control Wizard gains action points by dealing damage."
"A Devoted Cleric gains action points by healing or dealing damage."
"A Trickster Rogue gains action points by dealing damage."
Hmm. I can understand why TR's just focus on dealing damage. But it strikes me as odd that GWF's have the line 'using encounter powers' and control wizards have absolutely nothing about controlling anything. Odd.
And does mighty leap boost my ap? Just tested that, and it seems that only encounter powers that SAY they boost AP boost AP.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
The skirmishes were also very different.
GF: Boss pops, I run at him. Me. Alone. The other ppl stay behind.
GWF: Boss pops, let's avoid it and any kind of red ground, now is there a weal lone add somewhere? Ok, found one, let's try and hit it from behind. **** it has more HP than a trash mob zombie/drow, can some TR help killing it?
If you're Destroyer spec, you can easily (and usually should) be on the boss himself (depending on party composition of course).
If you're Sentinel spec, you laugh at red circles and stand in them intentionally to increase Determination gain.
Just saying your opinion here, in my opinion, is in error and a very basic misconception of the GWF class.
:cool:
For a brief recap. Rush in and aggro then AoS. Land. Hit NSF - IBS - Roar. Back into the air with AoS. I still don't understand why people hate AoS. I can achieve 16-18k crits with a CW debuffing. Our AP generation is still trash. I am rolling a TR now and all I can do is shake my head at GWF poor AP generation.
The best we can do as GWF is use IBS and Punishing Charge for AP generation in a heavy mob fight.
First of all: I think you misunderstand my comparing. You can't compare skills that even not have the same base.
Block can't be activated if you get cced. Unstoppable you can do it on most cc - if you have enough determination.
Block can't avoid attacks from behind - Unstoppable don't care about from were the attacks come.
Block slow you down - Unstoppable not.
Block don't let you use anything else the block at-wills. Unstoppable let you all do.
Block get interrupted by Chill - Unstoppable not.
And don't tell anything if you don't have tested it. I don't get AP from consuming damage. Only Tactician tree with last feat Martial Mastery maybe get it. All other not. So you need to post a picture(at imgur.com you can upload it and share the link of the picture) for gaining AP with consuming damage. If not it's only a lie and i told everyone that argue so a liar.
If community is stupid with one class, is the class itself BS? Don't call for the mass that one is broken. Oh the early humanity told everyone as a witch that stated that the earth is a ball and burn them. And what is the earth? Not was the 99%+ believe in that century...
Slam has to much utility(enable you to use all skills while it runs, slow down enemies, damage them, decrease their damage AND has an interrupting first strike) for good damage. If you and other don't check it, it's your problem. The I-win button daily with 1M damage, 100% CC resistance, 100% damage resistance, slow downs, attacker damage decrease and so on is BS.
I compare VM with AoS, because both hit in a circle. Both have no cap, give you CC-immunity(okay AoS only for it's animation). That's more points as AoS have with Terri. Terri: 5 hitcap, linehits. Bug out on AS(don't know if AoS it do too). Don't have CC-immunity, but also prone. That's more points against comparing it as for it!
Terri is slow independent of comparing. I miss sometimes mobs - because they move - or in worst case because of AS-bug.
The dailies of GWF are so bad(maybe for damage), because they have so many advantages. Advantages, that not every like or understand.
Last: AP gain is maybe not so bad im thinking. Maybe i do it right, or you do it wrong. That needs to figure out what - or Im imagine it better as it really is.
Bla bla bla...
I said that we are AoE DPS but not superior DD. Learn to read.
Your concept material said that we are defenders I see other things in reality.
I look at image on screen and I like screen to show me what I do in game. And there I see one strong man with two-handed sword. If you can said on this image ... defender I cannot.
Now you can read your manual and to said what you want and to continue to lie your eye/brain.
I am happy that I find one game different than WoW, but I play more than 1 MMO before this and I do not fail on this point. But this is other story.
Read your signature as much as you want. I prefer to play because your signature text's will help me with NOTHING in game.
I said enough as options and suggestions on forum and I do not like to repeat myself. Class do not fail... much. It have potential.
And the sadly part here is your cry for changes here in forum which one Cryptic will read but... not today.
My suggestion is to you as in my before post, play the game, help the ppl (if you can and want) and enjoy on the game. All other is pointless. If you look on all games that PWI manage there are all the same **** which one show me that they just want fast money and nothing more. If they do something they want to have profit, big profit.
And do not worry for me, I do not fail in the game if I do not like it I have few MMOs where I can back at any time and to continue to play them.
So, again, let's cover your poorly written points:
- You don't care about the source material and how it says that a Great Weapon Fighter is a Defender.
- You don't care that in game, since the game legitimately went live, a Great Weapon Fighter has far more significant tank than any other class besides the other fighter, a Guardian Fighter.
- You don't care that in PvP a Great Weapon Fighter excels above all others on point defense due to their huge ability to soak damage.
So what point are you making?
- They are big guys with a long sword, and thus, should be damage.
Fair. Your opinion. I disagree with it. Honestly, I think the devs have proven they agree with me more.
Cryptic probably isn't reading these forums. We will have to see how much posts like this combined with dev responses like this:
pay out in the future. I think we ARE being heard, though, just not as much as we all would like.
Oh, and I am playing and learning and helping others. I surf forums between queue's or on down times. Thanks for the advice though!
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
On my sentinel, unless the boss has some form of knockback or knockdown, I stay in the red circle. Ain't no reason not to, considering that it's not going to hurt me much. I've broken off fighting the boss before just to go get hit by a red circle for another unstoppable, hehehe ...
Sadly, it sounds to me as if Vortix44 may just not synch well with the class and it's many possible uses. At least not as well as he does with GF. I don't think this is proof the class is broken, just proof that he's better off playing a GF than a GWF.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters