Where is it? I browsed the five most recent patch notes and failed to see anything about Roar.
Well GWF changes are never in the patch notes... Noticed that when i was on my nth respec and was reading the skills. Cant say when that happen but is there.
Nerf Cw's ability to control the crowd, and no one will go to dungeons. Because even PK will become close to impossible due to enormously huge amount of adds. And CN?
It is not CW problem, it is dungeon mechanic problem. Too much trash, too many adds on boss, too little brain choice. That refers to CN in the first place! And that is the reason why GWF can't find his place there.
Most of the dungeons my CW can do with one particular loadout. I wish I would have to switch my skills during the run for every specific situation. But i also wish for the run not to be 3 hours! But instead - 45 minutes as it is stated. I want short road to boss - and tough boss fight not because of adds, but because of the boss itself. Currently no boss needs to be tanked, really. Each one of them is easy. But instead, adds are deadly. WHY? I struggle to understand it but fail
Imagine a boss fight where boss changes his behavior all the time. And every class gets his chance to shine in certain moments. I believe that would be the solution to GF/GWF problem.
But not nerfing CWs. Nerf hammer is not the best solution to game balancing.
I never said that CW's needed a nerf, I simply stated that they are much stronger in almost any role than the rest. If we assume we nerfed the CW's to the extent a tank was needed, we would pick a GF, not a GWF, since a GWF don't have enough damage to make up for the lower survivability and defense.
And, actually, what happens in most dungeons, is that someone tanks the boss. The TR to be specific, who can avoid almost all threat from adds, yet keep the boss' attention with his skillset, at the same time as he does great damage.
I do however have some problems coming of with a boss who would make a low threat generating medium damage offtank shine. Either I'll have to babysit him as a cleric, or the TR can "tank" the boss while I babysit the CW's taking care of w/e needs to be done. Or, we have a GF, at the same skill level and gear, who tanks everything for us with the occasional healing from me.
What people want is either a walking rock ready to tank anything for years if needed, or a extremely damaging assassin/wizard who eviscerates everything in their path. The GWF can't go either of these paths successfully, and thereby becomes obsolete, that was the point I tried to make in my earlier post.
I'm not against GWF's, they do their job wonderfully, just that there is a workaround to no have one in a dungeon, and that workaround is a lot more beneficent.
GWF don't have enough damage to make up for the lower survivability and defense.
Woooot? I've seen GWFs doing better than CWs in terms of damage (not even noticing their survivability against squishy wizzie). It is just difficult and demands specific build + top gear. But on the other hand being a good GF also means having BiS gear. Otherwise he won't be able to survive/hold threat. Trust me on that
And, actually, what happens in most dungeons, is that someone tanks the boss. The TR to be specific, who can avoid almost all threat from adds, yet keep the boss' attention with his skillset, at the same time as he does great damage.
Tanking is not successfully avoiding boss' AOEs. I have said it thousands of times, but people seem to be still misled. Tanking is taking the damage, absorbing it, deflecting and mitigating. And surviving ofc GF can somehow play that role, but it's still not the "tanking" i imagine in my mind. Right now it is more like running around, gathering threat and enjoying that feel of your a$$ burning :cool: (remember those FH kites).
What people want is either a walking rock ready to tank anything for years if needed, or a extremely damaging assassin/wizard who eviscerates everything in their path. The GWF can't go either of these paths successfully, and thereby becomes obsolete, that was the point I tried to make in my earlier post.
I don't see "lf GF for T2" often. So i don't know where are those mysterious places you are talking about. GFs are outsiders just like GWFs. Pretty sad. As i said, i see only one way to fix that: to change dungeon mechanics.
why nerf cw cc, their cc is fine, this game needs cc class, its their aoe dmg as ive said many times before
ofc dungeon mechanics are smth a 5yo kid could make up, but changing that would be a lot of work that would be better spent making good t3 dungeons.
and for ppl who say cw are needed - i intend on getting 4 or 5 good gwf and run most t2, t2.5 just for the heck of it. having cw ofc helps, but they are mostly chosen for their control combined with OP(considering their target caps and cc) dmg and ability to abuse bugs - smth most ppl do partially cause its easier and there are 2 many n 0 0 b s in this game and also the boss mechanics are so boring that a lot of ppl cant be bothered to fight those useless practice dummies that spawn ton of adds
Never had problems getting into CN or any other dungeon as a GF... i'm leveling a GWF, i will tell when im there...
I can tell you right now. You will get into n number of dungeons where n equals nada. Zero. Nothing.
While the class is very fun to play ... in epic T2 it pales. (all that exping and tossing kills this class what is made to deal with adds, and be good at all trades)
In GG is good. I saved the day for an inexperienced group of players, almost single handedly soloing down the end boss of Fardelver Crypt. or I saved the day for a PK group. But for 2-3 months I have not even been in Castle Never. I mean never. You simply won't get a place in groups. And my guild counting 150 + members is dead.
So I did what I suppose everyone does. Rolled a DC, and I am having fun leveling it, while I dream of the days when I will turn 60 and graciously join all those groups LF DC karru Last spot.
Whatever we deny or embrace, we belong togheter./ Pat Benatar
dont use the queue sistem for getting into dungeons, gather your own groups in LFG channel, you will have free access to all content, and, if you know how to run and do decent single target DPS, also CN.
I gladly choose GWFs in my groups all the time as long as they dont suck as a players (that's the main problem of the class, people suck) but any party to all dungeons but CN should have GWFs without problems.
Yes, and how exactly will you know if a player is good before you play with him ? You don't. I am good. Yet I still don't get invites.
Whatever we deny or embrace, we belong togheter./ Pat Benatar
one suggestion is there to differentiate the good and the bad gwf. We could get a "good boy star" player of our party, if, of course, they have the grace to allow us to play.
If you are having trouble finding room for your GWF, might I suggest joining a Guild or working with your friends list? Just an idea, and if that's not your cup of tea I can see where it will be difficult, but it is sound logic to try out!
In other words, compose a party for charity? If today I have been friends for at that time I surprised them by creating a strong character using a discredited class , and not for charity. Why do we need to give a "way" to play? Do not spend the same time to level? Do not consume too?
anyway
1 - the pve was abandoned. Now, with the servers unified, this was more than obvious.
Woooot? I've seen GWFs doing better than CWs in terms of damage (not even noticing their survivability against squishy wizzie). It is just difficult and demands specific build + top gear. But on the other hand being a good GF also means having BiS gear. Otherwise he won't be able to survive/hold threat. Trust me on that
And I've seen DC's out damage a TR, but, at equivalent gear a CW would out DPS a GWF by far. And if a GF needs BiS they should probably get a buff.
Tanking is not successfully avoiding boss' AOEs. I have said it thousands of times, but people seem to be still misled. Tanking is taking the damage, absorbing it, deflecting and mitigating. And surviving ofc GF can somehow play that role, but it's still not the "tanking" i imagine in my mind. Right now it is more like running around, gathering threat and enjoying that feel of your a$$ burning :cool: (remember those FH kites).
I've always seen taking as controlling the aggro and taking care of the damage the enemy deals, in the TR's case dodging it. But, guess that's justa question about how one defines tanking, the TR do take the role of holding the boss's aggro and keep it's AoE's away from the party in most dungeons, no matter what you call it.
I don't see "lf GF for T2" often. So i don't know where are those mysterious places you are talking about. GFs are outsiders just like GWFs. Pretty sad. As i said, i see only one way to fix that: to change dungeon mechanics.
I never said GF's were desired in the current meta, I just said that people either wants you to be a glasscannon, or a rock, the standard meta is indeed 5 glasscannons, meaning both the GF and GWF are obsolete. But, the GWF would imo. not benefit close to as much as the GF if Cryptic enforced a meta containing a tank. That was all I wanted to say.
To be honest, was months ago my DC did a somewhat serious dungeon with a GF or GWF in the party. And my CW stopped with it as soon she got her T2 set.
I have zero issues contributing to PvE groups -- be it with pugs or guildmates -- as a Guardian Fighter.
With pugs especially, more often than not I end up being the top Paingiver, Immovable Object, Executioner, and 2nd place in Field Medic. I rarely, if ever, lose aggro on things -- my partymates are typically only bothered by attacks that ignore aggro.
Different groups call for different playstyles, and where adapting your playstyle won't suffice, different builds. In a group with a cleric, a GWF and one or two control focused wizards, for example, the extra DPS I bring to the field as a Conqueror helps speed things up considerably and reduces the risk of people slipping up in prolonged battles. In different setups however, it becomes evident I have little to no synergy with the rest of my team (no buffs/debuffs/enabling like a Tactician), and that I am a small but considerable bit squishier than other GFs (Protectors). I'm probably better at holding aggro than either, but my "teamplay" and "tankiness" suffer for it.
A team which is entirely DPS specced (as appears to be the dominant meta) would probably benefit most from someone who can both 1) keep the aggro off the glass cannons and 2) can survive the aggro himself. A good Conqueror will run into survivability issues in the end-of-the-end game content, but should at least have aggro in the pocket 24/7, and may gain sustain through playskill or maybe even defensive gearing.
The GF of a more balanced team may have an easier time keeping aggro off the slightly less min-maxed cannons, which frees up space for him to either buff/enable his teammates and debuff the uglies (Tactician) or further optimize his sustain (Protector).
Specs and gear aside -- I find adapting your playstyle to that of your team tremendously impacts the efficiency of your GF.
General observations about playing a GF:
Many unexperienced GFs split up the group with reckless charging and Frontline Surging, making it nigh-impossible for the cleric to keep the party alive, and for himself to control the Entire Battlefield, as he is supposed to*. A well-placed Arcane Singularity can improve such situations dramatically, but not making a mess of the battlefield to start with makes life much easier on the entire party. Other things GFs should be constantly aware of is that 1) splats which are aimed at them should be aimed away from the rest of the party, and while you're at it, 2) you are optimally capable of providing Combat Advantage to your team mates, so do it!
*: Even perfect GFs aren't capable of controlling the Entire Battlefield in a limited selection of encounters and boss fights. Situations like this is what off-tanks are for. GWFs generally make formidable boss- or off-tanks, but I've also ran many delves quite effectively with a 2nd GF in the group.
Team-specific observations about playing a GF:
The only thing I can say here, really, is to be flexible while keeping in mind the points raised above. Be mindful of which teammates are squishiest and keep an eye out for anything moving towards them. Take the time needed to communicate and plan effectively before starting encounters or boss fights, especially if language barriers are an issue. Get everyone on the same page. Be mindful of each other's strengths and weaknesses and exploit/cover those as best you can. There is no single "Perfect Game" strategy or team, and even though there are many strategies that are sufficiently good to make your way through epic delves with a wide array of different parties, there are many more still which won't work. Locking yourself into one particular playstyle simply doesn't cut it -- with any class.
...
That said, I have never played a GWF myself, but I share the sentiment they lack a clearly defined role in PvE. They can be utterly amazing beasts of Great Weapon Destruction in PvP, but in PvE... there is no single thing they are better in than any other class. DCs heal, GFs tank, TRs and CWs kill and control single targets or areas... GWFs do a little of all those things. They're jacks of all trades, masters of none. Because of this, they bring a lot of flexibility to a team (good GWFs do, at least), but for most strategies/solutions, bringing someone else could generally be considered "more optimal". Nevertheless -- if you're in a bind, a skilled GWF should be able to replace anyone in the party, with the possible exclusion of the DC and, in certain delves, the CW. In a balanced "1 of each" party, having a GWF in a "rush goalie" role won't hurt either.
In summary, less QQ, more playerskill. Fighers are fine, unlike their typical DnD equivalents. There's always another way, to do certain delves faster or safer or otherwise better, but at a certain point, good enough is good enough -- and Guardian and Great Weapon Fighters with any modicum of skill are very much capable of contributing to parties becoming good enough.
In other words, compose a party for charity? If today I have been friends for at that time I surprised them by creating a strong character using a discredited class , and not for charity. Why do we need to give a "way" to play? Do not spend the same time to level? Do not consume too?
Charity? Hardly. I am in a Guild, and I am constantly requested to go on DDs, CN, MC, etc. w/my GWFs. It's a pretty simple concept, and not everyone must always run CN as blazingly fast as possible with the most OP group imaginable. Doing that is a choice, and I understand where PUGing can be difficult/nightmarish. Hence my suggestion! :cool:
I have fun on my GWFs, if you don't I'm truly sorry to hear that... I offered legit advice, it's your call on whether to accept it and utilize it, or brush it aside. Your life bud, enjoy!
Charity? Hardly. I am in a Guild, and I am constantly requested to go on DDs, CN, MC, etc. w/my GWFs. It's a pretty simple concept, and not everyone must always run CN as blazingly fast as possible with the most OP group imaginable. Doing that is a choice, and I understand where PUGing can be difficult/nightmarish. Hence my suggestion! :cool:
I have fun on my GWFs, if you don't I'm truly sorry to hear that... I offered legit advice, it's your call on whether to accept it and utilize it, or brush it aside. Your life bud, enjoy!
You said it yourself you are in a guild thus you get the Charity of your guild mates using you, because you are a very well geared GWF. And since you are a GWF your group goes slower then the "optimal" group, you said it yourself. Yes when I played GWF it was fun to play, Bigger, faster, and the illusion of being stronger than a GF.
The only thing I hate as a GF is seeing the GWF run by me and engage a pack of mobs first..... Feel 10 times as bad to see the GWF drop dead before I reach charging range.
Game mechanics cannot fix the GWF, they can fix the GF.
I see so many posts about people saying well if you have that greater/perfect enchant of your GWF and all the right gear and spec. You are simply amazing. No this is not true, I have seen plenty of GWF that out gear my GF do less damage than me in MC. Greater Vorapal Formian Fabled garbage Greatswords is what I personal thought of one that did half my GF's damage. Because he focused on single target damage as a GWF. Yes my GF is well geared and damage specced. It is the best way to play GF.
When you are max damage as a GF and you have a high damage party you are respected for keeping up with or exceeding other party members and then run goes smoothly because in this game damage is king. But in a bad group (low damage low geared group) a High defense GF is better. And sometimes needed for kiting. So I have a 2nd set of tank gear feature full feywild set 35k HP and 1500 regen for kiting and defensive play. Even as conquer spec.
As a GF I can freely change between tank and DPS by switching gear. This makes me 10 times more useful than a GWF. A GWF cannot do that. Even by respecing they cannot do either role as well as a GF. The best equally geared GWF's I know can do about 5-10% more damage than I do as a GF. GWF's are really hurt by the fact that they have next to nothing for burst damage. So in those high Damage blitz parties GWF fall far behind.
I ask why doesn't a guy with a huge sword have High damage encounters and dailies. The GWF's are the lowest of any class. GWF should have amazing burst with massive cooldowns. Slow but awesome. Instead they have very low damage and fast attack at-wills.
In groups with AS, GF's benefit more from grouped up mobs with cleave than a GWF because both classes hit 5 targets easily in this situation. GF have no reduced damage per hit and Cleave does more damage than some GWF encounters, and of course all of the GWF's at wills.
If CW's lose there damage parties will not replace the extra CW with a GWF it will be a 2nd GF, DC or TR. I forsee DPS DC's start to appear if CW's Aoe Damage gets nerfed. DC's have the best AOE burst damage of any class. This never happens because it is hard enough to find 1 DC let alone 2 and damage specced.
So Do not Nerf the CW to fix the Fighters.
Fix the GF by altering dungeons and boss fights, There are many reasons to do this #1 is to make them more appealing and not add fests. So all players have more fun not just GF's players.
For GWF they need a substantial buff. With GWF's survivability and Damage the way it is they need to be able to control mobs like a CW or Tank mobs like a GF in order to be party viable. Or you just boost up there damage by a ton, so even the GWF in tank gear is still doing comparable damage to a full DPS GF. and the Glass cannon GWF is truly that, and unbeatable in Damage dealt by any other glass. But still falls behind a TR on single damage and control.
I know your good intentions and all you try to do to help the players, nothing of what I say here is personal. But, as some here, you are confusing your personal skills / buying power with the class itself has to offer.
NOT A gwf in particular that is under discussion, is the gwf in GENERAL, those who remain good, those were good today and are not - my case - and those who never met because the class comes down to a mathematical challenge that becomes increasingly unaffordable for players of "limited resources".
*
Currently, just like a good vorpal / boot t2 for me to start a new gwf that is not even a shadow of what I was, but that is different, fun and believe that powerful ... but again, not we who are under discussion.
Once again I'll say. Do not nerf the CW's how do you think the players of CW's will react if you make them less effective than a GWF in order for a GWF to be a viable member of the group?
Now ask yourself how do you think CW players will react if GWF got buffed and then took a CW spot in party?
.
1. CW at moment is beast and enough over powered. If you defend it you do not know what can do CW or you want to be OP with your CW and to laugh on other ppl.
2. The players reaction will be like always when nerf happen - crys, tears, snivel, etc. Like this happen before when GWF got nerf. So what is the problem ? You think for you self or for game mechanic/balance ?
You are right for something DMG>All in this game. Which one make some builds useless, like Sentinel for PVE. Ye Sentinel can survive can do really much things but ... he have not DMG so he is not needed. But I can apply this for GF and TR too so ... the problem is not in GWF at all.
Destroyer build give enough DPS for moment and is valid. And yes all is about glass paper players with insane dps.
If CW's lose there damage parties will not replace the extra CW with a GWF it will be a 2nd GF, DC or TR. I forsee DPS DC's start to appear if CW's Aoe Damage gets nerfed. DC's have the best AOE burst damage of any class. This never happens because it is hard enough to find 1 DC let alone 2 and damage specced.
So Do not Nerf the CW to fix the Fighters.
CW need nerf never mind on AoE DMG or on Control. CW is so much OP like no one other class. At moment you can replace every other class with CW - this say enough and is not needed more.
Because if you buff other classes this easy game will became <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> easy game. Developers know it and because that they do no give buff on GWF and are scare to do nerf CW coz they will lose money. GWF is class that are sacrificed for moment. I suppose that they will do big changes when Ranger are available
I ask why doesn't a guy with a huge sword have High damage encounters and dailies. The GWF's are the lowest of any class. GWF should have amazing burst with massive cooldowns. Slow but awesome. Instead they have very low damage and fast attack at-wills.
Maybe if they add some Armor Penetration to GWF by default will be better. About slow idk the game is really dynamic and I think that the skills can't be more slow.
I know your good intentions and all you try to do to help the players, nothing of what I say here is personal. But, as some here, you are confusing your personal skills / buying power with the class itself has to offer.
NOT A gwf in particular that is under discussion, is the gwf in GENERAL, those who remain good, those were good today and are not - my case - and those who never met because the class comes down to a mathematical challenge that becomes increasingly unaffordable for players of "limited resources".
*
Currently, just like a good vorpal / boot t2 for me to start a new gwf that is not even a shadow of what I was, but that is different, fun and believe that powerful ... but again, not we who are under discussion.
The main problem of this game is DMG>All. All other problems with GWF is not so much in the class than in the people that play it. As we read on most topics in forum. Some ppl play it good and have enough DPS. Yes it is stupid to have 5-10 ways to do something (made a valid build) and only one to be valid but this is the true that we get from the game but wait this is valid for all classes not only for GWF. I meat many bad player that can do nothing or do not enough from EACH class.
About "limited resources" ... I am not agree. GWF can be good geared with Blue stuff and to have enough GS/DPS after that any T1 gear is ok, I prefer pvp gear because nice dps stats and easy to be obtained.
Vorpal is just a option for each class nothing more nothing less. Vorpal is valid enchant when you have enough Critical Rate otherwise it is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. When I start this game I was think to invest in it but now I do not think but this is personal decision.
1. CW at moment is beast and enough over powered. If you defend it you do not know what can do CW or you want to be OP with your CW and to laugh on other ppl.
2. The players reaction will be like always when nerf happen - crys, tears, snivel, etc. Like this happen before when GWF got nerf. So what is the problem ? You think for you self or for game mechanic/balance ?
I do know CW, I play CW I play all classes but TR. CW cannot replace a DC and CW cannot replace a GF "when" tanking is needed. This is why GF's are very popular for MC. The CW power comes from dungeon design and because it is the only well made class.
You are right for something DMG>All in this game. Which one make some builds useless, like Sentinel for PVE. Ye Sentinel can survive can do really much things but ... he have not DMG so he is not needed. But I can apply this for GF and TR too so ... the problem is not in GWF at all.
Destroyer build give enough DPS for moment and is valid. And yes all is about glass paper players with insane dps.
As a GF I out Dps many destroyer build GWF's I can tell a Destroyer build GWF by looking at there gear and gearscore, These GWF's get more GS from Recovery. There are few GWF's the good ones that use destroyer build that have equal gear to my GF and can do a little more Damage than me in a dungeon. But That is all they do, they cannot compare to my control powers, tank(buff) powers, Threat generation or even the simple matter of pulling mobs when needed.
Maybe if they add some Armor Penetration to GWF by default will be better. About slow idk the game is really dynamic and I think that the skills can't be more slow.
GWF already have this, from Con. As a GF I rarely use the little bit I get from dex and just stack normal armor pen I do alot better than most GWFS, even though I have not crit+ stack like GWFs do. CW's dont have built in Armor pen and the still top the charts
The main problem of this game is DMG>All. All other problems with GWF is not so much in the class than in the people that play it. As we read on most topics in forum. Some ppl play it good and have enough DPS. Yes it is stupid to have 5-10 ways to do something (made a valid build) and only one to be valid but this is the true that we get from the game but wait this is valid for all classes not only for GWF. I meat many bad player that can do nothing or do not enough from EACH class.
About "limited resources" ... I am not agree. GWF can be good geared with Blue stuff and to have enough GS/DPS after that any T1 gear is ok, I prefer pvp gear because nice dps stats and easy to be obtained.
Vorpal is just a option for each class nothing more nothing less. Vorpal is valid enchant when you have enough Critical Rate otherwise it is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. When I start this game I was think to invest in it but now I do not think but this is personal decision.
This statement undermines any validity to any of your posts. If you believe a GWF can compare to a GF in blue gear you are sorely mistaken and I will take you up on the offer to show you. I can tell that you only play one class where I play 4 all of them geared up in T2 and better. I look directly at the numbers of what each classes powers do at level 60 and find GWF lacking. Playing GWF I know he is lacking as there is nothing a GWF can do that a GF can't. And when I play GWF I perform better than any GWF in equal gear and sometimes better than GWF's in better gear. I know there is a serious serious problem with the class.
You can tell me I'm wrong all you want but nothing you say will be able to change my mind from the vast amount of experience I have playing GWF and grouping with other GWF's. And nothing you can say will change the minds of the vast majority of gamers that also exclude the GWF in there groups. Many because they dont read these forums.
The GWF's poor situation is caused only because of the game and the design of the class compared to other classes and how it performs in dungeons. And thus players react this way as it is the only sensible way of thinking form any player that plays any other class other than GWF, and Those that play both any other class and GWF they "know"
The only way for The GWF's situation to change is for the Devs to get on board and make changes to the game. I'm helping all I can by expressing my views of why I dont group with GWF's. It is a more valuable opinion to devs than those of GWF players that cry about wanting buffs.
I do know CW, I play CW I play all classes but TR. CW cannot replace a DC and CW cannot replace a GF "when" tanking is needed. This is why GF's are very popular for MC. The CW power comes from dungeon design and because it is the only well made class.
You did 3/3 CW dungs ?
As a GF I out Dps many destroyer build GWF's I can tell a Destroyer build GWF by looking at there gear and gearscore, These GWF's get more GS from Recovery.
I think that for Destroyer Recovery is useless stat, so yes it give only GS and nothing more.
There are few GWF's the good ones that use destroyer build that have equal gear to my GF and can do a little more Damage than me in a dungeon.
Destroyer's build is not static so there is difference from one build to other, yes they are not so big but there is and they do different DPS depend of it.
About that you can do same DPS in dung like GWF (or any other class) I think that this is normal and this is made from Developers side but because stupidity on players which one always try to compare DPS on classes. If someone class can do more DPS than other - they use prefer this class. So for me is normal all classes DPS to be same on max DPS.
But That is all they do, they cannot compare to my control powers, tank(buff) powers, Threat generation or even the simple matter of pulling mobs when needed.
I never try to compare GF and GWF in this direction it is pointless.
This statement undermines any validity to any of your posts. If you believe a GWF can compare to a GF in blue gear you are sorely mistaken and I will take you up on the offer to show you.
We can test this very easy and I am open if you want. So sad that I sell yesterday my blue items which one give me better offensive stats than my T2 PVP set, they just have not set bonus becausethat I sell them (I lack of inventory space - free player:( ). But I think that I can find them in AH. So I think that you will fail at this point
You can tell me I'm wrong all you want but nothing you say will be able to change my mind from the vast amount of experience I have playing GWF and grouping with other GWF's. And nothing you can say will change the minds of the vast majority of gamers that also exclude the GWF in there groups. Many because they dont read these forums.
GWF have not role in group because it is pure dmg dealer or dmg eater class depend of build.
The only way for The GWF's situation to change is for the Devs to get on board and make changes to the game. I'm helping all I can by expressing my views of why I dont group with GWF's. It is a more valuable opinion to devs than those of GWF players that cry about wanting buffs.
As I read in patch note developers nerf it few times. When Developers nerf something they know something that is wrong with this class. And they will not tell us what is wrong because this can be exploit or too OP.
The GWF's poor situation is caused only because of the game and the design of the class compared to other classes and how it performs in dungeons. And thus players react this way as it is the only sensible way of thinking form any player that plays any other class other than GWF, and Those that play both any other class and GWF they "know"
That are nonsense, I everytime play with one class and I always work on it to be better and better, and I think that I do it well, maybe not perfect but I am always open to learn something new. I think in opposite direction, if one player do not invest as much as he can time in one class, he can't know it well.
"The GWF's poor situation is caused only because of the game and the design of the class compared to other classes and how it performs in dungeons. And thus players react this way as it is the only sensible way of thinking form any player that plays any other class other than GWF, and Those that play both any other class and GWF they "know" "
That are nonsense, I everytime play with one class and I always work on it to be better and better, and I think that I do it well, maybe not perfect but I am always open to learn something new. I think in opposite direction, if one player do not invest as much as he can time in one class, he can't know it well.
Uh? It's not nonsense at all. What would be nonsensical as a player would be to try and attempt to make his gwf work. The best you can hope is to become a better gwf than the other gwfs, but in the good vs evil world of NW, your gwf will remain the mirror image of a trash mob.
Uh? It's not nonsense at all. What would be nonsensical as a player would be to try and attempt to make his gwf work. The best you can hope is to become a better gwf than the other gwfs, but in the good vs evil world of NW, your gwf will remain the mirror image of a trash mob.
Yeah, but can you tell me what do your character ? Something different ? Flying ? Superman ? You do same like me ! Kill mobs or if you can kick them in the abyss. Aaaand why ? For 30 sec faster run ? Do you use glitch ? It is important what is your class if you kill boss with glitch ?
I can only suggest you to read yourself and to think what you wrote...
I enjoy on GWF and maybe will change him when/if Archer become available. I have partys with ppl that enjoy on the game and play for fun. And not rush for 30 sec faster run. And yeah if you do not know there is many ppl like this. So GWF is not death class I saw many ppl to play it online - yeah not so much as before but who care.
Just remember, gents, that this is Dungeons and Dragons. And modeled heavily after 4th Edition. A GWF is a defender first and foremost. Our DPS should not equal that of a striker (TR) for any reason. We aren't a Barbarian, even with all damage talents and Barbarian-looking armor (check out my character image for an example). Read the link in my signature if you want to see the facts I pull from to support that argument.
If we step away from the player misconceptions of what they wish GWF to be (Barbarian AOE striker), to what we SHOULD be as per the origins of our class, then the biggest issues we have are:
- Our cone-based, limited target AOE is not on par with our other forms of damage, limiting it's capabilities.
- And our ability to generate threat is sub-par, limiting our ability to tank.
Due to a lack of need for AOE and the fact that threat has no effect on players, you see us doing our role just fine in PvP. We have absolutely no problems standing side by side with GF's. Two sub-classes of Fighters who do the same role, just two different ways.
But when you get us in PvE, that's where our inability to generate threat (either with too much damage, too much healing or via threat-based powers) shows our weakness.
Fix the threat generation, and you'll see our role improve. Boost our AOE attacks (at-wills and encounters, in particular), and you'll see our performance shine.
The rest is in the wash, because otherwise, we really are just fine.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Give me back AP and fix the instigator cap stone and I will be quiet.....for a bit.
As far as damage...TR and CW high end player will out damage me...that was a DIRECT result of the AP generation nerf.
Otherwise I was always number 1. Including the old days of pitching mobs over the cliff.
First, I think AP got a secret boost recently. About three weeks ago. No patch notes, but I've noticed my dailies are recording about 10-15 seconds faster than they were, and I did nothing to my feats or equipment. Guildies noticed the same thing. I think it's generally a point to sit quiet on it and keep complaining, so that we get more of a buff, to be honest.
And about the CW's ... don't give them any 'damage done' for using the environment to kill things. I swear you'll watch their actual damage dealt on the end scoreboard fall severely.
I honestly believe that scoreboard does more to ruin class balancing discussions than it helps. If CW DPS was so high, we'd see a lot more of them rocking Arena, in my opinion.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
"I think that for Destroyer Recovery is useless stat, so yes it give only GS and nothing more."
Today this is true. did not build that could overcome a character who becomes immortal / unstoppable, leaving the slam almost as a passive skill. The same goes for those who say that the gf was better than gwf. Neither the cw was better besides being independent of the cleric (but were defective in single target). To be honest, I never understood why so much invested in critical / armor penetration to build the recovery was far better (for pve) and infinitely cheaper.
"First, I think AP got a secret boost recently. About three weeks ago. No patch notes, but I've noticed my dailies are recording about 10-15 seconds faster than they were, and I did nothing to my feats or equipment. "
I noticed the same thing. I have the impression that either the ibs has generated more ap, or critics. Currently I can throw 2-3 dailys per fight.
Hence my need to increase the critical current / vorpal ... what justifies these sets high critical current and, for lack of recovery, shortage in pen (ie more expensive).
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zardoz007Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 2Arc User
First, I think AP got a secret boost recently. About three weeks ago. No patch notes, but I've noticed my dailies are recording about 10-15 seconds faster than they were, and I did nothing to my feats or equipment. Guildies noticed the same thing. I think it's generally a point to sit quiet on it and keep complaining, so that we get more of a buff, to be honest.
And about the CW's ... don't give them any 'damage done' for using the environment to kill things. I swear you'll watch their actual damage dealt on the end scoreboard fall severely.
I honestly believe that scoreboard does more to ruin class balancing discussions than it helps. If CW DPS was so high, we'd see a lot more of them rocking Arena, in my opinion.
If it is true that the devs are tweaking GWFs with buffs and not telling anyone that is a god awful sad thing to do. The worst thing a GWF player has to deal with is the fact that his class has a horrible reputation. And as long as players believe that the GWF has a bad rep those players still will not invite them because the think nothing has changed.
If the Devs do make positive changes to the GWF everyone needs to know about them. Or else making any changes to the GWF is pointless. People will not give the GWF a chance to rpove themselves unless they think something Has changed. I remember when GWFs first got the buff to Unstoppable and now had Temp HP. Everyone was willing to invite GWFs then a least for a few weeks to give them an opportunity to prove themselves. But since the GWF still had no role they fell back into a 3rd rate class once again
And about the CW's ... don't give them any 'damage done' for using the environment to kill things. I swear you'll watch their actual damage dealt on the end scoreboard fall severely.
I honestly believe that scoreboard does more to ruin class balancing discussions than it helps. If CW DPS was so high, we'd see a lot more of them rocking Arena, in my opinion.
This could not be further from the truth. Without pitching over a ledge they can still put out more damage. The main contributor to their better DPS is time via range. We have to dodge things or reposition...most of the time they do not.
This could not be further from the truth. Without pitching over a ledge they can still put out more damage. The main contributor to their better DPS is time via range. We have to dodge things or reposition...most of the time they do not.
They do have considerable damage. And you're right, fighters have to spend a lot of time moving and repositioning, while ranged classes can continually keep pecking away unless they get aggro.
I'd make a suggestion on dungeon and level design, more for supporting using different aggro mechanics for different critters. All it would take is certain critters giving priority to various targets of opportunity. Archers focusing first and foremost on CW's. Ranged debuffers focusing on the melee players. Melee closing with the healers.
So many of the apparent issues in PVE class design could more simply be solved with AI tweaks. Make CW's a priority target (outside of the oversimplified threat mechanism, in an ideal setting), and you force them to dodge and weave more, thus disrupting their applicable DPS.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
They do have considerable damage. And you're right, fighters have to spend a lot of time moving and repositioning, while ranged classes can continually keep pecking away unless they get aggro.
I'd make a suggestion on dungeon and level design, more for supporting using different aggro mechanics for different critters. All it would take is certain critters giving priority to various targets of opportunity. Archers focusing first and foremost on CW's. Ranged debuffers focusing on the melee players. Melee closing with the healers.
So many of the apparent issues in PVE class design could more simply be solved with AI tweaks. Make CW's a priority target (outside of the oversimplified threat mechanism, in an ideal setting), and you force them to dodge and weave more, thus disrupting their applicable DPS.
No if you make CW's the priority target then tanking becomes even more pointless. CW's already generate tons of threat. CC moves and good damage make them draw more threat from mroe mobs than TR, GWF and DC. GF's have to work to hold threat on a powerful CW.
The ideal situation is make CW's "Need" a GWF. Give GWF's the threat to pick up any mobs that are after the CW. and Give GWF the damage/CC/Control to be the ideal party member to destroy groups of Arcane Singularity mobs. More so than a 2nd CW.
Most likely by removing hit caps on the GWF and giving them some burst AOE damage in there encounters and Dailies. And giving them a Threat buff. Probably to one of their passives. I have heard Bravery would make a good choice for something like that.
That would be the first step, yet a small step in making the GWF more viable.
No if you make CW's the priority target then tanking becomes even more pointless. CW's already generate tons of threat. CC moves and good damage make them draw more threat from mroe mobs than TR, GWF and DC. GF's have to work to hold threat on a powerful CW.
The ideal situation is make CW's "Need" a GWF. Give GWF's the threat to pick up any mobs that are after the CW. and Give GWF the damage/CC/Control to be the ideal party member to destroy groups of Arcane Singularity mobs. More so than a 2nd CW.
Most likely by removing hit caps on the GWF and giving them some burst AOE damage in there encounters and Dailies. And giving them a Threat buff. Probably to one of their passives. I have heard Bravery would make a good choice for something like that.
That would be the first step, yet a small step in making the GWF more viable.
I agree with GWF needing more threat. My point of 'priority' isn't to apply it to all mobs across the board. Just give certain mobs roles. Keep it diverse, randomize it a bit, but if your an archer NPC and your group is attacked by an adventuring party, does it make more sense to try and pelt the guy with the shield, or the guy throwing fireballs from the back?
All that said, the simplified threat mechanism is the real issue. It's standard MMO aggro mechanics, which I find disappointing. Give each mob a preferred opponent type or two, as I mentioned, and then, instead of using threat to decide who has 'tank', let the defender classes have skills which allow them to absorb or block damage to opposing teammates.
Harder to do. Not even a fully formed argument. But paper-and-pen DnD allowed Fighters many options for stepping in and interrupting an attack from an enemy to an ally, or boosting the damage they do to any enemy attacking someone else. Attacks of opportunity, extra damage, lowered defenses. And again, sometimes just putting yourself in harms way.
I would prefer if they got away from the 'tank' trope, and went a little more to what DnD 4e built into a defender. Less about aggro control, more about actively defending allies (jumping in front of strikes and taking the hit yourself; interrupting enemy melee attacks, not just spells), or positioning on the battlefield (fighters preventing enemies from moving past them; CW's and AR's staying the back of the battle). Not even sure if it's possible.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Comments
Well GWF changes are never in the patch notes... Noticed that when i was on my nth respec and was reading the skills. Cant say when that happen but is there.
And, actually, what happens in most dungeons, is that someone tanks the boss. The TR to be specific, who can avoid almost all threat from adds, yet keep the boss' attention with his skillset, at the same time as he does great damage.
I do however have some problems coming of with a boss who would make a low threat generating medium damage offtank shine. Either I'll have to babysit him as a cleric, or the TR can "tank" the boss while I babysit the CW's taking care of w/e needs to be done. Or, we have a GF, at the same skill level and gear, who tanks everything for us with the occasional healing from me.
What people want is either a walking rock ready to tank anything for years if needed, or a extremely damaging assassin/wizard who eviscerates everything in their path. The GWF can't go either of these paths successfully, and thereby becomes obsolete, that was the point I tried to make in my earlier post.
I'm not against GWF's, they do their job wonderfully, just that there is a workaround to no have one in a dungeon, and that workaround is a lot more beneficent.
Tanking is not successfully avoiding boss' AOEs. I have said it thousands of times, but people seem to be still misled.
I don't see "lf GF for T2" often. So i don't know where are those mysterious places you are talking about. GFs are outsiders just like GWFs. Pretty sad. As i said, i see only one way to fix that: to change dungeon mechanics.
ofc dungeon mechanics are smth a 5yo kid could make up, but changing that would be a lot of work that would be better spent making good t3 dungeons.
and for ppl who say cw are needed - i intend on getting 4 or 5 good gwf and run most t2, t2.5 just for the heck of it. having cw ofc helps, but they are mostly chosen for their control combined with OP(considering their target caps and cc) dmg and ability to abuse bugs - smth most ppl do partially cause its easier and there are 2 many n 0 0 b s in this game and also the boss mechanics are so boring that a lot of ppl cant be bothered to fight those useless practice dummies that spawn ton of adds
I can tell you right now. You will get into n number of dungeons where n equals nada. Zero. Nothing.
While the class is very fun to play ... in epic T2 it pales. (all that exping and tossing kills this class what is made to deal with adds, and be good at all trades)
In GG is good. I saved the day for an inexperienced group of players, almost single handedly soloing down the end boss of Fardelver Crypt. or I saved the day for a PK group. But for 2-3 months I have not even been in Castle Never. I mean never. You simply won't get a place in groups. And my guild counting 150 + members is dead.
So I did what I suppose everyone does. Rolled a DC, and I am having fun leveling it, while I dream of the days when I will turn 60 and graciously join all those groups LF DC karru Last spot.
Yes, and how exactly will you know if a player is good before you play with him ? You don't. I am good. Yet I still don't get invites.
anyway
1 - the pve was abandoned. Now, with the servers unified, this was more than obvious.
2-there is no expectation of improvements to our class in pve. Today I was officially ignored here http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?507301-NW-5-20131009a-4-Patch-Notes/page3 after talking about all the common complaints among us (gave hints personal, but goes off ... haha)
3 lost time riding a perfect setting for a style of play that is no longer possible. If it was all for a "good cause", ok, but it is not.
I've always seen taking as controlling the aggro and taking care of the damage the enemy deals, in the TR's case dodging it. But, guess that's justa question about how one defines tanking, the TR do take the role of holding the boss's aggro and keep it's AoE's away from the party in most dungeons, no matter what you call it.
I never said GF's were desired in the current meta, I just said that people either wants you to be a glasscannon, or a rock, the standard meta is indeed 5 glasscannons, meaning both the GF and GWF are obsolete. But, the GWF would imo. not benefit close to as much as the GF if Cryptic enforced a meta containing a tank. That was all I wanted to say.
To be honest, was months ago my DC did a somewhat serious dungeon with a GF or GWF in the party. And my CW stopped with it as soon she got her T2 set.
With pugs especially, more often than not I end up being the top Paingiver, Immovable Object, Executioner, and 2nd place in Field Medic. I rarely, if ever, lose aggro on things -- my partymates are typically only bothered by attacks that ignore aggro.
Different groups call for different playstyles, and where adapting your playstyle won't suffice, different builds. In a group with a cleric, a GWF and one or two control focused wizards, for example, the extra DPS I bring to the field as a Conqueror helps speed things up considerably and reduces the risk of people slipping up in prolonged battles. In different setups however, it becomes evident I have little to no synergy with the rest of my team (no buffs/debuffs/enabling like a Tactician), and that I am a small but considerable bit squishier than other GFs (Protectors). I'm probably better at holding aggro than either, but my "teamplay" and "tankiness" suffer for it.
A team which is entirely DPS specced (as appears to be the dominant meta) would probably benefit most from someone who can both 1) keep the aggro off the glass cannons and 2) can survive the aggro himself. A good Conqueror will run into survivability issues in the end-of-the-end game content, but should at least have aggro in the pocket 24/7, and may gain sustain through playskill or maybe even defensive gearing.
The GF of a more balanced team may have an easier time keeping aggro off the slightly less min-maxed cannons, which frees up space for him to either buff/enable his teammates and debuff the uglies (Tactician) or further optimize his sustain (Protector).
Specs and gear aside -- I find adapting your playstyle to that of your team tremendously impacts the efficiency of your GF.
General observations about playing a GF:
Many unexperienced GFs split up the group with reckless charging and Frontline Surging, making it nigh-impossible for the cleric to keep the party alive, and for himself to control the Entire Battlefield, as he is supposed to*. A well-placed Arcane Singularity can improve such situations dramatically, but not making a mess of the battlefield to start with makes life much easier on the entire party. Other things GFs should be constantly aware of is that 1) splats which are aimed at them should be aimed away from the rest of the party, and while you're at it, 2) you are optimally capable of providing Combat Advantage to your team mates, so do it!
*: Even perfect GFs aren't capable of controlling the Entire Battlefield in a limited selection of encounters and boss fights. Situations like this is what off-tanks are for. GWFs generally make formidable boss- or off-tanks, but I've also ran many delves quite effectively with a 2nd GF in the group.
Team-specific observations about playing a GF:
The only thing I can say here, really, is to be flexible while keeping in mind the points raised above. Be mindful of which teammates are squishiest and keep an eye out for anything moving towards them. Take the time needed to communicate and plan effectively before starting encounters or boss fights, especially if language barriers are an issue. Get everyone on the same page. Be mindful of each other's strengths and weaknesses and exploit/cover those as best you can. There is no single "Perfect Game" strategy or team, and even though there are many strategies that are sufficiently good to make your way through epic delves with a wide array of different parties, there are many more still which won't work. Locking yourself into one particular playstyle simply doesn't cut it -- with any class.
...
That said, I have never played a GWF myself, but I share the sentiment they lack a clearly defined role in PvE. They can be utterly amazing beasts of Great Weapon Destruction in PvP, but in PvE... there is no single thing they are better in than any other class. DCs heal, GFs tank, TRs and CWs kill and control single targets or areas... GWFs do a little of all those things. They're jacks of all trades, masters of none. Because of this, they bring a lot of flexibility to a team (good GWFs do, at least), but for most strategies/solutions, bringing someone else could generally be considered "more optimal". Nevertheless -- if you're in a bind, a skilled GWF should be able to replace anyone in the party, with the possible exclusion of the DC and, in certain delves, the CW. In a balanced "1 of each" party, having a GWF in a "rush goalie" role won't hurt either.
In summary, less QQ, more playerskill. Fighers are fine, unlike their typical DnD equivalents. There's always another way, to do certain delves faster or safer or otherwise better, but at a certain point, good enough is good enough -- and Guardian and Great Weapon Fighters with any modicum of skill are very much capable of contributing to parties becoming good enough.
I have fun on my GWFs, if you don't I'm truly sorry to hear that... I offered legit advice, it's your call on whether to accept it and utilize it, or brush it aside. Your life bud, enjoy!
You said it yourself you are in a guild thus you get the Charity of your guild mates using you, because you are a very well geared GWF. And since you are a GWF your group goes slower then the "optimal" group, you said it yourself. Yes when I played GWF it was fun to play, Bigger, faster, and the illusion of being stronger than a GF.
The only thing I hate as a GF is seeing the GWF run by me and engage a pack of mobs first..... Feel 10 times as bad to see the GWF drop dead before I reach charging range.
Game mechanics cannot fix the GWF, they can fix the GF.
I see so many posts about people saying well if you have that greater/perfect enchant of your GWF and all the right gear and spec. You are simply amazing. No this is not true, I have seen plenty of GWF that out gear my GF do less damage than me in MC. Greater Vorapal Formian Fabled garbage Greatswords is what I personal thought of one that did half my GF's damage. Because he focused on single target damage as a GWF. Yes my GF is well geared and damage specced. It is the best way to play GF.
When you are max damage as a GF and you have a high damage party you are respected for keeping up with or exceeding other party members and then run goes smoothly because in this game damage is king. But in a bad group (low damage low geared group) a High defense GF is better. And sometimes needed for kiting. So I have a 2nd set of tank gear feature full feywild set 35k HP and 1500 regen for kiting and defensive play. Even as conquer spec.
As a GF I can freely change between tank and DPS by switching gear. This makes me 10 times more useful than a GWF. A GWF cannot do that. Even by respecing they cannot do either role as well as a GF. The best equally geared GWF's I know can do about 5-10% more damage than I do as a GF. GWF's are really hurt by the fact that they have next to nothing for burst damage. So in those high Damage blitz parties GWF fall far behind.
I ask why doesn't a guy with a huge sword have High damage encounters and dailies. The GWF's are the lowest of any class. GWF should have amazing burst with massive cooldowns. Slow but awesome. Instead they have very low damage and fast attack at-wills.
In groups with AS, GF's benefit more from grouped up mobs with cleave than a GWF because both classes hit 5 targets easily in this situation. GF have no reduced damage per hit and Cleave does more damage than some GWF encounters, and of course all of the GWF's at wills.
If CW's lose there damage parties will not replace the extra CW with a GWF it will be a 2nd GF, DC or TR. I forsee DPS DC's start to appear if CW's Aoe Damage gets nerfed. DC's have the best AOE burst damage of any class. This never happens because it is hard enough to find 1 DC let alone 2 and damage specced.
So Do not Nerf the CW to fix the Fighters.
Fix the GF by altering dungeons and boss fights, There are many reasons to do this #1 is to make them more appealing and not add fests. So all players have more fun not just GF's players.
For GWF they need a substantial buff. With GWF's survivability and Damage the way it is they need to be able to control mobs like a CW or Tank mobs like a GF in order to be party viable. Or you just boost up there damage by a ton, so even the GWF in tank gear is still doing comparable damage to a full DPS GF. and the Glass cannon GWF is truly that, and unbeatable in Damage dealt by any other glass. But still falls behind a TR on single damage and control.
I know your good intentions and all you try to do to help the players, nothing of what I say here is personal. But, as some here, you are confusing your personal skills / buying power with the class itself has to offer.
NOT A gwf in particular that is under discussion, is the gwf in GENERAL, those who remain good, those were good today and are not - my case - and those who never met because the class comes down to a mathematical challenge that becomes increasingly unaffordable for players of "limited resources".
*
Currently, just like a good vorpal / boot t2 for me to start a new gwf that is not even a shadow of what I was, but that is different, fun and believe that powerful ... but again, not we who are under discussion.
1. CW at moment is beast and enough over powered. If you defend it you do not know what can do CW or you want to be OP with your CW and to laugh on other ppl.
2. The players reaction will be like always when nerf happen - crys, tears, snivel, etc. Like this happen before when GWF got nerf. So what is the problem ? You think for you self or for game mechanic/balance ?
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@cyanbluestone007
You are right for something DMG>All in this game. Which one make some builds useless, like Sentinel for PVE. Ye Sentinel can survive can do really much things but ... he have not DMG so he is not needed. But I can apply this for GF and TR too so ... the problem is not in GWF at all.
Destroyer build give enough DPS for moment and is valid. And yes all is about glass paper players with insane dps.
CW need nerf never mind on AoE DMG or on Control. CW is so much OP like no one other class. At moment you can replace every other class with CW - this say enough and is not needed more.
Because if you buff other classes this easy game will became <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> easy game. Developers know it and because that they do no give buff on GWF and are scare to do nerf CW coz they will lose money. GWF is class that are sacrificed for moment. I suppose that they will do big changes when Ranger are available
Maybe if they add some Armor Penetration to GWF by default will be better. About slow idk the game is really dynamic and I think that the skills can't be more slow.
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The main problem of this game is DMG>All. All other problems with GWF is not so much in the class than in the people that play it. As we read on most topics in forum. Some ppl play it good and have enough DPS. Yes it is stupid to have 5-10 ways to do something (made a valid build) and only one to be valid but this is the true that we get from the game but wait this is valid for all classes not only for GWF. I meat many bad player that can do nothing or do not enough from EACH class.
About "limited resources" ... I am not agree. GWF can be good geared with Blue stuff and to have enough GS/DPS after that any T1 gear is ok, I prefer pvp gear because nice dps stats and easy to be obtained.
Vorpal is just a option for each class nothing more nothing less. Vorpal is valid enchant when you have enough Critical Rate otherwise it is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. When I start this game I was think to invest in it but now I do not think but this is personal decision.
PvP GWF - BizzyBedBug
PvE GF (salvaged)
PvE TR (salvaged)
GWF PvP/CW PvE @ http://www.twitch.tv/bizzyplusplus/
I do know CW, I play CW I play all classes but TR. CW cannot replace a DC and CW cannot replace a GF "when" tanking is needed. This is why GF's are very popular for MC. The CW power comes from dungeon design and because it is the only well made class.
As a GF I out Dps many destroyer build GWF's I can tell a Destroyer build GWF by looking at there gear and gearscore, These GWF's get more GS from Recovery. There are few GWF's the good ones that use destroyer build that have equal gear to my GF and can do a little more Damage than me in a dungeon. But That is all they do, they cannot compare to my control powers, tank(buff) powers, Threat generation or even the simple matter of pulling mobs when needed.
GWF already have this, from Con. As a GF I rarely use the little bit I get from dex and just stack normal armor pen I do alot better than most GWFS, even though I have not crit+ stack like GWFs do. CW's dont have built in Armor pen and the still top the charts
This statement undermines any validity to any of your posts. If you believe a GWF can compare to a GF in blue gear you are sorely mistaken and I will take you up on the offer to show you. I can tell that you only play one class where I play 4 all of them geared up in T2 and better. I look directly at the numbers of what each classes powers do at level 60 and find GWF lacking. Playing GWF I know he is lacking as there is nothing a GWF can do that a GF can't. And when I play GWF I perform better than any GWF in equal gear and sometimes better than GWF's in better gear. I know there is a serious serious problem with the class.
You can tell me I'm wrong all you want but nothing you say will be able to change my mind from the vast amount of experience I have playing GWF and grouping with other GWF's. And nothing you can say will change the minds of the vast majority of gamers that also exclude the GWF in there groups. Many because they dont read these forums.
The GWF's poor situation is caused only because of the game and the design of the class compared to other classes and how it performs in dungeons. And thus players react this way as it is the only sensible way of thinking form any player that plays any other class other than GWF, and Those that play both any other class and GWF they "know"
The only way for The GWF's situation to change is for the Devs to get on board and make changes to the game. I'm helping all I can by expressing my views of why I dont group with GWF's. It is a more valuable opinion to devs than those of GWF players that cry about wanting buffs.
I think that for Destroyer Recovery is useless stat, so yes it give only GS and nothing more.
Destroyer's build is not static so there is difference from one build to other, yes they are not so big but there is and they do different DPS depend of it.
About that you can do same DPS in dung like GWF (or any other class) I think that this is normal and this is made from Developers side but because stupidity on players which one always try to compare DPS on classes. If someone class can do more DPS than other - they use prefer this class. So for me is normal all classes DPS to be same on max DPS.
I never try to compare GF and GWF in this direction it is pointless.
We can test this very easy and I am open if you want. So sad that I sell yesterday my blue items which one give me better offensive stats than my T2 PVP set, they just have not set bonus becausethat I sell them (I lack of inventory space - free player:( ). But I think that I can find them in AH. So I think that you will fail at this point
GWF have not role in group because it is pure dmg dealer or dmg eater class depend of build.
As I read in patch note developers nerf it few times. When Developers nerf something they know something that is wrong with this class. And they will not tell us what is wrong because this can be exploit or too OP.
That are nonsense, I everytime play with one class and I always work on it to be better and better, and I think that I do it well, maybe not perfect but I am always open to learn something new. I think in opposite direction, if one player do not invest as much as he can time in one class, he can't know it well.
Uh? It's not nonsense at all. What would be nonsensical as a player would be to try and attempt to make his gwf work. The best you can hope is to become a better gwf than the other gwfs, but in the good vs evil world of NW, your gwf will remain the mirror image of a trash mob.
Yeah, but can you tell me what do your character ? Something different ? Flying ? Superman ? You do same like me ! Kill mobs or if you can kick them in the abyss. Aaaand why ? For 30 sec faster run ? Do you use glitch ? It is important what is your class if you kill boss with glitch ?
I can only suggest you to read yourself and to think what you wrote...
I enjoy on GWF and maybe will change him when/if Archer become available. I have partys with ppl that enjoy on the game and play for fun. And not rush for 30 sec faster run. And yeah if you do not know there is many ppl like this. So GWF is not death class I saw many ppl to play it online - yeah not so much as before but who care.
As far as damage...TR and CW high end player will out damage me...that was a DIRECT result of the AP generation nerf.
Otherwise I was always number 1. Including the old days of pitching mobs over the cliff.
If we step away from the player misconceptions of what they wish GWF to be (Barbarian AOE striker), to what we SHOULD be as per the origins of our class, then the biggest issues we have are:
- Our cone-based, limited target AOE is not on par with our other forms of damage, limiting it's capabilities.
- And our ability to generate threat is sub-par, limiting our ability to tank.
Due to a lack of need for AOE and the fact that threat has no effect on players, you see us doing our role just fine in PvP. We have absolutely no problems standing side by side with GF's. Two sub-classes of Fighters who do the same role, just two different ways.
But when you get us in PvE, that's where our inability to generate threat (either with too much damage, too much healing or via threat-based powers) shows our weakness.
Fix the threat generation, and you'll see our role improve. Boost our AOE attacks (at-wills and encounters, in particular), and you'll see our performance shine.
The rest is in the wash, because otherwise, we really are just fine.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
First, I think AP got a secret boost recently. About three weeks ago. No patch notes, but I've noticed my dailies are recording about 10-15 seconds faster than they were, and I did nothing to my feats or equipment. Guildies noticed the same thing. I think it's generally a point to sit quiet on it and keep complaining, so that we get more of a buff, to be honest.
And about the CW's ... don't give them any 'damage done' for using the environment to kill things. I swear you'll watch their actual damage dealt on the end scoreboard fall severely.
I honestly believe that scoreboard does more to ruin class balancing discussions than it helps. If CW DPS was so high, we'd see a lot more of them rocking Arena, in my opinion.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Pff...I see plenty of CWs in PVP...
TRs on the other hand...I never see them in PVP....wait...nevermind....that was just stealth
Today this is true. did not build that could overcome a character who becomes immortal / unstoppable, leaving the slam almost as a passive skill. The same goes for those who say that the gf was better than gwf. Neither the cw was better besides being independent of the cleric (but were defective in single target). To be honest, I never understood why so much invested in critical / armor penetration to build the recovery was far better (for pve) and infinitely cheaper.
"First, I think AP got a secret boost recently. About three weeks ago. No patch notes, but I've noticed my dailies are recording about 10-15 seconds faster than they were, and I did nothing to my feats or equipment. "
I noticed the same thing. I have the impression that either the ibs has generated more ap, or critics. Currently I can throw 2-3 dailys per fight.
Hence my need to increase the critical current / vorpal ... what justifies these sets high critical current and, for lack of recovery, shortage in pen (ie more expensive).
If it is true that the devs are tweaking GWFs with buffs and not telling anyone that is a god awful sad thing to do. The worst thing a GWF player has to deal with is the fact that his class has a horrible reputation. And as long as players believe that the GWF has a bad rep those players still will not invite them because the think nothing has changed.
If the Devs do make positive changes to the GWF everyone needs to know about them. Or else making any changes to the GWF is pointless. People will not give the GWF a chance to rpove themselves unless they think something Has changed. I remember when GWFs first got the buff to Unstoppable and now had Temp HP. Everyone was willing to invite GWFs then a least for a few weeks to give them an opportunity to prove themselves. But since the GWF still had no role they fell back into a 3rd rate class once again
Devs need to communicate to players, period.
This could not be further from the truth. Without pitching over a ledge they can still put out more damage. The main contributor to their better DPS is time via range. We have to dodge things or reposition...most of the time they do not.
They do have considerable damage. And you're right, fighters have to spend a lot of time moving and repositioning, while ranged classes can continually keep pecking away unless they get aggro.
I'd make a suggestion on dungeon and level design, more for supporting using different aggro mechanics for different critters. All it would take is certain critters giving priority to various targets of opportunity. Archers focusing first and foremost on CW's. Ranged debuffers focusing on the melee players. Melee closing with the healers.
So many of the apparent issues in PVE class design could more simply be solved with AI tweaks. Make CW's a priority target (outside of the oversimplified threat mechanism, in an ideal setting), and you force them to dodge and weave more, thus disrupting their applicable DPS.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
No if you make CW's the priority target then tanking becomes even more pointless. CW's already generate tons of threat. CC moves and good damage make them draw more threat from mroe mobs than TR, GWF and DC. GF's have to work to hold threat on a powerful CW.
The ideal situation is make CW's "Need" a GWF. Give GWF's the threat to pick up any mobs that are after the CW. and Give GWF the damage/CC/Control to be the ideal party member to destroy groups of Arcane Singularity mobs. More so than a 2nd CW.
Most likely by removing hit caps on the GWF and giving them some burst AOE damage in there encounters and Dailies. And giving them a Threat buff. Probably to one of their passives. I have heard Bravery would make a good choice for something like that.
That would be the first step, yet a small step in making the GWF more viable.
I agree with GWF needing more threat. My point of 'priority' isn't to apply it to all mobs across the board. Just give certain mobs roles. Keep it diverse, randomize it a bit, but if your an archer NPC and your group is attacked by an adventuring party, does it make more sense to try and pelt the guy with the shield, or the guy throwing fireballs from the back?
All that said, the simplified threat mechanism is the real issue. It's standard MMO aggro mechanics, which I find disappointing. Give each mob a preferred opponent type or two, as I mentioned, and then, instead of using threat to decide who has 'tank', let the defender classes have skills which allow them to absorb or block damage to opposing teammates.
Harder to do. Not even a fully formed argument. But paper-and-pen DnD allowed Fighters many options for stepping in and interrupting an attack from an enemy to an ally, or boosting the damage they do to any enemy attacking someone else. Attacks of opportunity, extra damage, lowered defenses. And again, sometimes just putting yourself in harms way.
I would prefer if they got away from the 'tank' trope, and went a little more to what DnD 4e built into a defender. Less about aggro control, more about actively defending allies (jumping in front of strikes and taking the hit yourself; interrupting enemy melee attacks, not just spells), or positioning on the battlefield (fighters preventing enemies from moving past them; CW's and AR's staying the back of the battle). Not even sure if it's possible.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters