but they should unstealth 100% at dealing damage.
Or any other fix to that to give other classes a chance against stealthed...
Edit: Maybe a 60-80% miss chance on attacks while stealthed would also work fine.
I'm fine with somehow getting the perm stealth builds to be less annoying, but your suggestions literally destroy the class for PvE and PvP at least for the average TR (not the ones who have rank 7-8+ on everything and a perfect vorpal). Personally, I turn on stealth for an opening and to get a quick damage bonus if in a fight (essentially stealth for half a second and attack). For the chance to miss, it destroys it for both PvE and PvP since, why bother stealthing even for the LB bonus if you are going to miss it almost every time (at least with the rates you posted)? I would rather take 50% chance to crit instead of doing no damage. Even for a perm stealth, they just have to keep attacking until your die, it just takes longer. The average TR who isn't perm stealth is hurt A LOT more than the perm stealth build.
For the unstealthing on damage, a majority of TRs are squishy as hell and can be demolished by anyone the moment they are visible unless they are specifically PvP specced, which if they are, stealth is the least of your worries. I fought a TR that would regen 1.2k every heal (it was near death so it had 100% regen, but still) and still kept high damage; that is just ridiculous.
As far as a DC goes for fighting against a TR, place down your circles and you literally decrease their damage to essentially nothing that you can't reheal as long as you have some tanking ability (if its a 1v1 and its an average TR). The main issue with TR at the moment is the vorpal enchant which increases their damage by A LOT. Those are the TR which will still be able to nuke you, even if you change stealth to how you have it. Someone mentioned earlier in this topic that they messed with stealth decreasing on attack and it crashed and burned. What you have is way worse than that.
this OP is that same guy I outed a month ago complaining about TR's ...while he was wearing greens and blues...
-Svet..
PS: seems he got a little better, but still a long way to go.
Thanks for giving my character info to the crowd (I am looking for a casual guild now that you've seen my equipment, btw). My name is Helena, nice to meet you. I cannot really remember who you are. Due to real life issues, I couldn't play much or read the forums to see what is going around and be informed about this perma stealth thing.
Anyway, I shall repeat this again and I hope someone understands. I made this post because perma stealth seemed abnormal, I repeat ABNORMAL, to me. It was something that I hadn't seen before. Normally, I read guides on how to counter stuff and how to play better, it's the first time I do it in an MMO, but this perma stealth phenomenon just looked way too exaggerated/buggy for it to be normal in the game. In all the previous matches I played, I was able to face rogues easier but this thing was a surprise.
Yep just another QQ "Nerf the TR" thread made by a player who only wants nerfs instead of learning how to counter stealthed TRs. There are disadvantageous to having a perma stealth build but no the player still wants it nerfed to the ground. Tons of advice and tactics are suggested to counter perma stealth TR, some even from the perma stealth TR the OP fought against. The OP even killed the perma stealth TR once and still wants it nerfed. LOL:)
Everyone go ahead and ask for more nerfs because every class will be nerfed at the same time. LOL:)
Just like you said. Once. And this because I had someone with me. But I died like 10 times more whether I had a comrade or not.
So by that same token all CW's are unfair since they're capable of locking down a TR completely and killing them before they can get into range to attack. Oh wait, the TR can see the CW the whole time so that must make it fair...
Exactly this. They can see the CW, he/she is a mage therefore he/she is long ranged and everyone knows that. Knowing someone is a mage therefore long ranged can predict his/hers actions and decide what to do which is obviously to enter stealth to ambush him/her. And as for the lock down, there have been many cases where I was locked down by TRs or GWFs and unable to react at all because of stun/prone.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "With the force of Wind and Ice , I shall rise..."
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rlrobrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Stealth in this game is completely borked and not thought through concerning PVP. It might work well in PVE, but not in PVP.
Just consider this:
You are a DC and see an TR running to you. He stealthes. So now what? You can't see him, you can't hit him, you can't unstealth him, you can't dodge him and you can't outrun him. So in this scenario the TR will deal the first strike. ALWAYS! and due to the reaction time he surely will hit you a second time as well. Timed correctly and with the right abilities you might be very low on health after an attack that COULD NOT BE AVOIDED AT ALL!
You are completely wrong. If you are a DC and you see a rogue approaching and entering stealth, just cast sunburst in divine mode. This will throw him away and most likely end his stealth by the time he recovers. The only way he can be immune to this is by casting ItC, but it will make him visible again.
I often play PvP with a DC and there are only very few rogues that can kill me on 1 vs 1 fight. GWF are much more dangerous, imo.
As a GWF I never had a problem with permastealth tr's on mindlfayer before the merge, their dps was always slow enough that I could run around spamming WMS and hit them and get them out of stealth before they brought my health down very much. but I've run into a few in the last week that seem to stay in ITC permanently, and they can reenter stealth while I'm in the middle of an encounter rotation on them, even when they are knocked down. I've always heard that the stealth meter is supposed to diminish on damage, but that doesn't seem to be the case for a few TRs.
Anyway, I shall repeat this again and I hope someone understands. I made this post because perma stealth seemed abnormal, I repeat ABNORMAL, to me. It was something that I hadn't seen before. Normally, I read guides on how to counter stuff and how to play better, it's the first time I do it in an MMO, but this perma stealth phenomenon just looked way too exaggerated/buggy for it to be normal in the game. In all the previous matches I played, I was able to face rogues easier but this thing was a surprise.
Again, that's an experience issue. It's been around for a long time, and there are many ways to counter it. If I want my permastealth TR to be much more dangerous, then I don't do permastealth. If I want to cap the back point, have a different kind of fun challenge in PvE, or be entertained by people whining (hate to say it, but some of it can be pretty funny when people demand you play the way that they want you to play so that they have the advantage), then permastealth is the way to go. Against experience PvP'ers it is quite challenging.
Exactly this. They can see the CW, he/she is a mage therefore he/she is long ranged and everyone knows that. Knowing someone is a mage therefore long ranged can predict his/hers actions and decide what to do which is obviously to enter stealth to ambush him/her. And as for the lock down, there have been many cases where I was locked down by TRs or GWFs and unable to react at all because of stun/prone.
So I think you're ignoring the basics of tactical advantage here. You can spec a CW out to be very nasty in close quarters, but they will still have the advantage of long range attacks other classes don't have. A GF is generally as slow as molasses (moving uphill) but they compensate by being able to take a lot of hits - except when played by people who have no idea how to use their core mechanics and some of their skills. Each class has advantages and disadvantages. If you're going to be successful at PvP, it really helps to learn them. If you want to be consistently successful at PvP, remember that it is a team sport and communicate.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2013
Parme, just some fast advice, it doesn't REALLY need to be you contesting with the nasty types. You see a big GWF in shiny armor and big bad blue fiery weapon? Go away, find a squishy like you to kill instead. And so on. The only reason I'd see you bothering to contest against a permastealth is if you wanna test things and learn stuff, other than that, it's useless. Also you don't need to justify for your gear, but expect to be killed very fast by more geared adversaries, it's OK and how it should be, so don't feel bad about it
In regards to stealth, the fundamental flaw in NW combat is that invisible stealthed players can not be targeted.
In Planetside 2 (mmo), I kill stealthed players with ease. I feel bad for them because they are so easy to kill.
How do I do it?
I correctly guess where the invisible person is, aim in that direction, and shoot.
Unlike NW, Planetside 2 allows me to aim at anything and shoot it.
Only reason stealth is effective in NW pvp is because NW targeting system is restricted and lacks freedom.
A properly designed game would allow players to use any attack, in any direction, without a target.
In regards to stealth, the fundamental flaw in NW combat is that invisible stealthed players can not be targeted.
In Planetside 2 (mmo), I kill stealthed players with ease. I feel bad for them because they are so easy to kill.
How do I do it?
I correctly guess where the invisible person is, aim in that direction, and shoot.
Unlike NW, Planetside 2 allows me to aim at anything and shoot it.
Only reason stealth is effective in NW pvp is because NW targeting system is restricted and lacks freedom.
A properly designed game would allow players to use any attack, in any direction, without a target.
Now that would be a solution, but hard to implement at this late point in the game.
In regards to stealth, the fundamental flaw in NW combat is that invisible stealthed players can not be targeted.
They cannot be directly targeted, but still take damage from AoE's unless the TR has Impossible to Catch up. Every class has AoE's that can hit a stealthed TR, and unless the TR has Tenacious Concealment as one of their two passives and/or is using the Lurker's Assault daily (which has changed substantially), those AoE's will take the TR right out of stealth.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
Yep just another QQ "Nerf the TR" thread made by a player who only wants nerfs instead of learning how to counter stealthed TRs. There are disadvantageous to having a perma stealth build but no the player still wants it nerfed to the ground. Tons of advice and tactics are suggested to counter perma stealth TR, some even from the perma stealth TR the OP fought against. The OP even killed the perma stealth TR once and still wants it nerfed. LOL:)
Everyone go ahead and ask for more nerfs because every class will be nerfed at the same time. LOL:)
Even most of the TRs say they are OP.
Stealth/path of blades/ranged attack/crit while stealthed/ the list goes on.
Good luck in defeating the unseen without proper tools or defenses!
Stealth/path of blades/ranged attack/crit while stealthed/ the list goes on.
Good luck in defeating the unseen without proper tools or defenses!
TRs consider perma anything but OP!
What you may have seen discussed is high level gameplay with Greater Tenebrous. G.Tene's benefit many builds across many classes, it just so happens to make perma TRs viable due to turning Path of the Blade into a monstrous ability! Even then they can be countered by equivalently geared players.
Parme, just some fast advice, it doesn't REALLY need to be you contesting with the nasty types. You see a big GWF in shiny armor and big bad blue fiery weapon? Go away, find a squishy like you to kill instead. And so on. The only reason I'd see you bothering to contest against a permastealth is if you wanna test things and learn stuff, other than that, it's useless. Also you don't need to justify for your gear, but expect to be killed very fast by more geared adversaries, it's OK and how it should be, so don't feel bad about it
That is what I was trying to do and what I mostly do. I see a GWF's health not falling? OK let's swap targets I can't kill him. And I turn to a priest or a TR who is unstealthed or another CW.
As for my equipment, I don't justify my gear. I've stopped playing seriously a long time now because of real life (preparations for college) but I think of coming back, I even attempted to enter an epic dungeon, but our tank decided to abandon us in the middle of it (this is the reason I am looking for a guild with casual players).
The thing is I didn't like the fact that some unknown person suddenly posted a screenshot with my character's status out of nowhere and that's why I decided to take it calmly and somewhat humorous if you can name it. If someone would like to check me up, he would. I am not having decent gear, I haven't mastered my CW but hey, you would feel the same too if someone would just show your character in a forum post without even knowing him or at least asking for your approval.
PS: There are some times that only because of my stubborness I face people better equipped than me. This process taught me a lot of things although it is not an advantage :P For example, now I've learnt that I can counter the perma stealth with Icy Terrain. I insisted on confronting that TR that much at this pvp match that I sat down and thought seriously what shall I do to effectively take him out or disable him or kick him away from my point.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "With the force of Wind and Ice , I shall rise..."
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kingculexMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The thing is I didn't like the fact that some unknown person suddenly posted a screenshot with my character's status out of nowhere and that's why I decided to take it calmly and somewhat humorous if you can say it. If someone would like to check me up, he would. I am not having decent gear, I haven't mastered my CW but hey, you would feel the same too if someone would just show your character in a forum post without even knowing him or at least asking for your approval.
Next time don't jump on the nerf band wagon then. That player did not like it you called for nerfs so posted the screenshot of your character's status to show you were under geared. What did you expect? Did you expect other players to like your "hope this to be nerfed... a lot" comment after todesfaelle replied to you?
The posting of your character's status showed you really had no justification to ask for nerfs in my opinion because you are under geared. It would have been different if you had better gear.
BTW, my character's status screen with a detailed description of the build I use is in the forums already in todesfaelle's build thread. I use a crit/stealth build. Crit/Power for PVP and Stealth for PVE.
Permastealth TRs are very weak and not OP themselves. They require Greater Tenebrous enchantments to be OP. The permastealth cookie cutter build specifically calls for Greater Tenebrous enchantments.
Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
Next time don't jump on the nerf band wagon then. That player did not like it you called for nerfs so posted the screenshot of your character's status to show you were under geared. What did you expect? Did you expect other players to like your "hope this to be nerfed... a lot" comment after todesfaelle replied to you?
The posting of your character's status showed you really had no justification to ask for nerfs in my opinion because you are under geared. It would have been different if you had better gear.
Nope. I didn't expect everyone to like this, I just wanted to be honest. But the truth is... I see many people complaining about the perma stealth, I ain't a psycho that asks for the impossible. And it is exaggerated the fact that someone doesn't exit stealth at all but only for a few miliseconds, I've played a variety of MMOs and this is a new to me. That is what really bothers me. Also, someone said that this build became more common after the merge and I can agree on this because I hadn't faced not even one perma stealth TR in Mindflayer before the merge. If so many people use this build - before the merge- , what the odds are that I haven't faced not even one before the merge? I have played quite a lot matches of PvP in a daily basis before I gave up for a month, if I hadn't I would say ok it just exists and I am not aware of it, I would give up the discussion and I wouldn't insist.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "With the force of Wind and Ice , I shall rise..."
hadn't faced not even one perma stealth TR in Mindflayer before the merge. If so many people use this build - before the merge- , what the odds are that I haven't faced not even one before the merge? I have played quite a lot matches of PvP in a daily basis before I gave up for a month, if I hadn't I would say ok it just exists and I am not aware of it, I would give up the discussion and I wouldn't insist.
Dragon had both the highest player population and the strongest perma TRs (one of the Lemonade Stand TRs practically popularized a PoB/Regen/G.Tene build entirely himself months before non-beta players even knew of it). Once you face one of those monsters, who is also highly skilled, it is not surprising the build become more popular on Dragon first.
It has not become "more common" after the merge, you are just meeting more of them.
In addition, the fact you did not even meet perma TR's on your own shard shows just how little experience you have of fighting them.
The thing is I didn't like the fact that some unknown person suddenly posted a screenshot with my character's status out of nowhere.[/SIZE]
First, all chars are publicly available, you just need to manually complete the URL.
Second, it's understandable that a TR wouldn't like when people ask nerfs to their class, especially PvP guys that invested in specific gearing/spec a lot of time/AD.
That doesn't make anybody or anything however exempt from the nerfhammer :P After I've seen so many complaining like mad about High Vizier stacking, I feel like I have the right to complain about their HAMSTER too, since they took my favorite toy away. I just don't think anything is worth nerfing though for now, maybe except those lame GTEs that require 0 skill to use and should disappear.
Even better, a specific PvP resilience stat/gear set would be nice, that would greatly reduce stuff like perfect vorpal crits and player damage WoW-style, to make matches longer and more fun. Some classes just have way too much burst, CWs included.
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kingculexMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Nope. I didn't expect everyone to like this, I just wanted to be honest. But the truth is... I see many people complaining about the perma stealth, I ain't a psycho that asks for the impossible. And it is exaggerated the fact that someone doesn't exit stealth at all but only for a few miliseconds, I've played a variety of MMOs and this is a new to me. That is what really bothers me. Also, someone said that this build became more common after the merge and I can agree on this because I hadn't faced not even one perma stealth TR in Mindflayer before the merge. If so many people use this build - before the merge- , what the odds are that I haven't faced not even one before the merge? I have played quite a lot matches of PvP in a daily basis before I gave up for a month, if I hadn't I would say ok it just exists and I am not aware of it, I would give up the discussion and I wouldn't insist.
Honesty is anyone asking for nerfs freely showing their character status and build because in my opinion it would add to their credibility when asking for nerfs. A high geared player wanting nerfs has more credibility than an under geared player wanting nerfs in my book. Notice how the majority of the time players ask for nerfs and fail to show their character status/build. It makes you think they are trying to hide something.
The explanation for more of the permastealth builds being seen after the merge is simply the players who use the build are now on one server instead of several servers. To date it seems you have only faced one permastealth build player when the TR community is large. It makes you look like your saying "OMG, I faced one permastealth out of tons of TRs and all TRs must be nerfed!".
Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
To date it seems you have only faced one permastealth build player when the TR community is large. It makes you look like your saying "OMG, I faced one permastealth out of tons of TRs and all TRs must be nerfed!".
Nonono, you lost me there. I didn't ask for every type and every build of the TR to be nerfed. All I talk about at this very moment is their endless and impossible to break stealth (topic title).
Honesty is anyone asking for nerfs freely showing their character status and build because in my opinion it would add to their credibility when asking for nerfs.
But the truth is... I see many people complaining about the perma stealth, I ain't a psycho that asks for the impossible.
Please, don't appoint yourself to speak for others. Particularly when people create multiple threads to whine about the same thing to make it seem as though it is a widespread problem that must be addressed.
Nonono, you lost me there. I didn't ask for every type and every build of TR to be nerfed. All I talk about at this very moment is their endless stealth (topic title).
Well, actually you did. I get the fact that you don't know how a TR is played and how the class works. But do you know how many skills the TR uses that are connected to stealth (I believe the answer is 17, but please feel free to check my math)? If you want to nerf stealth, then you are calling for a fundamental change to the TR class. Every TR uses stealth. Are you also aware of the fact that there have already been multiple nerfs to the TR?
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
Well, actually you did. I get the fact that you don't know how a TR is played and how the class works. But do you know how many skills the TR uses that are connected to stealth (I believe the answer is 17, but please feel free to check my math)? If you want to nerf stealth, then you are calling for a fundamental change to the TR class. Every TR uses stealth. Are you also aware of the fact that there have already been multiple nerfs to the TR?
Well, I was curious to see how a TR work so I created one but I haven't played him a lot. I will though.
Would a twitch of stealth be bad? Like exiting stealth when hitting or receiving damage as many people said? But this of course will not stay as it is. Right next to this "nerf", it can be added the advantage e.g. which side of the character you attack you get a bonus.
For example:
- Attack from the back: Increased damage, stun/prone with a 100% rate or increased critical rate .
- Attack on the side: Less increased damage than the backstab, debuffs mentioned above applied with a lesser rate.
It is only an example, devs could do a lot more but that's what came to my mind right now.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "With the force of Wind and Ice , I shall rise..."
As others have said, only the top geared perma-stealth TRs can inflict consistently threatening damage. Aside from whittling away at CWs and playing hide-and-seek around a node, they're not that amazing. A perma-stealth TR, if played intelligently and geared, has a good shot at taking out my CW. The converse is also true, though, because if they allow themselves to be caught without ITC, they are controlled and dead in seconds.
I'm not in favor of huge nerfs to TRs. The only issues I have a slight beef with are unavoidable Impact Shot chains from stealth and Shocking Execution being a cheesy instant-win button that even the most talentless player can implement by waiting for someone's health to dip (execution skills are necessary to break stalemates, but SE goes through so many defenses that it's difficult or sometimes impossible to avoid even if you correctly anticipate it).
Still, even if they never tweaked those points, I could live with it. I want other players to continue to enjoy the game so that there will continue to be a game to play, and the TR community has swallowed quite a few nerfs in a relatively short time period. Maybe better to look at ways to buff other classes' defensive options than to find more ways to reduce TR effectiveness, especially since all of those nerfs impact PvE gameplay as well.
Well, I was curious to see how a TR work so I created one but I haven't played him a lot. I will though.
Enjoy! Check out the TR forums if you want to play around with some different builds. No need to be cookie cutter, but some of them are quite efficient!
Would a twitch of stealth be bad? Like exiting stealth when hitting or receiving damage as many people said? But this of course will not stay as it is. Right next to this "nerf", it can be added the advantage e.g. which side of the character you attack you get a bonus.
For example:
- Attack from the back: Increased damage, stun/prone with a 100% rate or increased critical rate .
- Attack on the side: Less increased damage than the backstab, debuffs mentioned above applied with a lesser rate.
It is only an example, devs could do a lot more but that's what came to my mind right now.
In a word, yes. To make any changes to stealth would require a re-work of the TR class. TR's have already had a number of their significant damage dealing skills nerfed some time ago, including Sneak Attack (used to be a damage bonus) and Shocking Execution (which used to do a tremendous amount of damage). Other skills have been changed in a variety of ways, but changing the way that stealth works would be to change the entire class. That's not a small thing from a programming perspective and it is even larger from a gameplay and balance perspective.
Here is what it comes down to for permastealth. Actually permastealth has some significant tradeoffs that make TR's do less damage in exchange for increased survivability. An unstealthed TR is a target for every other class, and as the sole Striker class in the game they can reasonably expect to do tremendous amounts of single target damage. Someone who is not well-geared, particularly defensively, is going to be shredded by a well-geared TR. That being said, there are multiple ways to hit a stealthed TR (again, barring ItC and LA), taking them out of stealth, and taking them out. It is a different playstyle than your average CW who plays a DPS rather than control game in PvP, but also a much more effective one.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
As others have said, only the top geared perma-stealth TRs can inflict consistently threatening damage. Aside from whittling away at CWs and playing hide-and-seek around a node, they're not that amazing. A perma-stealth TR, if played intelligently and geared, has a good shot at taking out my CW. The converse is also true, though, because if they allow themselves to be caught without ITC, they are controlled and dead in seconds.
I'm not in favor of huge nerfs to TRs. The only issues I have a slight beef with are unavoidable Impact Shot chains from stealth and Shocking Execution being a cheesy instant-win button that even the most talentless player can implement by waiting for someone's health to dip (execution skills are necessary to break stalemates, but SE goes through so many defenses that it's difficult or sometimes impossible to avoid even if you correctly anticipate it).
Still, even if they never tweaked those points, I could live with it. I want other players to continue to enjoy the game so that there will continue to be a game to play, and the TR community has swallowed quite a few nerfs in a relatively short time period. Maybe better to look at ways to buff other classes' defensive options than to find more ways to reduce TR effectiveness, especially since all of those nerfs impact PvE gameplay as well.
I would love some sort of skill that gave me a few seconds of stealth detection. People don't really understand that a decent geared TR with the correct skills will own just about anyone. Nothing like watching your health dropping while you are getting RANGED from stealth...followed by what ever they want to finish you off.
TR is a solid class that has outstanding skills when you look at them ONE skill at a time. The problem comes when they can use various skills at the same time then they become OP.
Speaking as a GWF - When I am on a point and I start getting ranged and path of blades....and there is NOTHING I can do....I run away. Add Tenes and I don't even get that. I get to die or develop ESP in order to PREDICT where the TR MIGHT be standing. The one thing we as GWF can do is fire off our wonderful daily skill that tickles the TR for 300 HP in the hopes of uncovering them.
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kingculexMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'm not in favor of huge nerfs to TRs. The only issues I have a slight beef with are unavoidable Impact Shot chains from stealth and Shocking Execution being a cheesy instant-win button that even the most talentless player can implement by waiting for someone's health to dip (execution skills are necessary to break stalemates, but SE goes through so many defenses that it's difficult or sometimes impossible to avoid even if you correctly anticipate it).
I guess that makes a CW's Ice Knife a cheesy instant-win button that even the most talentless player can implement without waiting for someone's health to dip. On more than one occasion Ice Knife one shot killed me with full health. Do I want it nerfed? No.
Speaking as a GWF - When I am on a point and I start getting ranged and path of blades....and there is NOTHING I can do....I run away. Add Tenes and I don't even get that. I get to die or develop ESP in order to PREDICT where the TR MIGHT be standing. The one thing we as GWF can do is fire off our wonderful daily skill that tickles the TR for 300 HP in the hopes of uncovering them.
Guess you never heard of following trajectory of the dagger and paying attention to your surroundings. I would like to know the build and gear you are using with pictures if you are killed by cloud of steel so easily.
Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
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kingculexMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The thing is I didn't like the fact that some unknown person suddenly posted a screenshot with my character's status out of nowhere and that's why I decided to take it calmly and somewhat humorous if you can name it. If someone would like to check me up, he would. I am not having decent gear, I haven't mastered my CW but hey, you would feel the same too if someone would just show your character in a forum post without even knowing him or at least asking for your approval.
PS: There are some times that only because of my stubborness I face people better equipped than me. This process taught me a lot of things although it is not an advantage :P For example, now I've learnt that I can counter the perma stealth with Icy Terrain. I insisted on confronting that TR that much at this pvp match that I sat down and thought seriously what shall I do to effectively take him out or disable him or kick him away from my point.
Nice addition in the PS section btw.
1. You admitted to not mastering your CW. <-Good
2. You admitted that there are better equipped players. <-Good
3. You admitted that it is a learning process. <- Very Good
You are doing good already. Hopefully you will understand why asking for nerfs looks bad when you were beat by a player who was a master at his class and was better equipped. Nerfing stealth will hurt every member of the TR community and not just permastealths. The better approach to be honest is to nerf the gear used by permastealths that give bonus stealth or nerf tenebrous. The main permastealth build uses Greater Tenebrous. To be honest I am still in shock you were killed by todesfaelle's build since it is comparably weak when it comes to PVP because it focuses only on stealth. It is good you learned how to counter permastealths and hopefully you will continue to learn.
Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
I will never use a perma-stealth build, and I never use the shocking execution daily skill.
To me, shocking execution is just a cheap way to play in PvP. The majority of perma stealth TRs that I have fought will do their stealth stuff, throw their knives, do damage that isn't significant with my regen, and then they'll rely on shocking execution to finish the job. Who would want to rely on their daily power to even get a single kill? Not me.
Also, in Rivenscar, if you're on one of the side points, a lot of perma stealth TRs will actually hide in the corner when their stealth meter runs out.
You are doing good already. Hopefully you will understand why asking for nerfs looks bad when you were beat by a player who was a master at his class and was better equipped. Nerfing stealth will hurt every member of the TR community and not just permastealths. The better approach to be honest is to nerf the gear used by permastealths that give bonus stealth or nerf tenebrous. The main permastealth build uses Greater Tenebrous. To be honest I am still in shock you were killed by todesfaelle's build since it is comparably weak when it comes to PVP because it focuses only on stealth. It is good you learned how to counter permastealths and hopefully you will continue to learn.
What about those?
(copy/paste from my previous post)
Would a twitch of stealth be bad? Like exiting stealth when hitting or receiving damage as many people said? But this of course will not stay as it is. Right next to this "nerf", it can be added the advantage of e.g. which side of the character you attack you get a bonus.
For example:
- Attack from the back: Increased damage, stun/prone with a 100% rate or increased critical rate .
- Attack on the side: Less increased damage than the backstab, debuffs mentioned above applied with a lesser rate.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "With the force of Wind and Ice , I shall rise..."
Comments
this OP is that same guy I outed a month ago complaining about TR's ...while he was wearing greens and blues...
-Svet..
PS: seems he got a little better, but still a long way to go.
I'm fine with somehow getting the perm stealth builds to be less annoying, but your suggestions literally destroy the class for PvE and PvP at least for the average TR (not the ones who have rank 7-8+ on everything and a perfect vorpal). Personally, I turn on stealth for an opening and to get a quick damage bonus if in a fight (essentially stealth for half a second and attack). For the chance to miss, it destroys it for both PvE and PvP since, why bother stealthing even for the LB bonus if you are going to miss it almost every time (at least with the rates you posted)? I would rather take 50% chance to crit instead of doing no damage. Even for a perm stealth, they just have to keep attacking until your die, it just takes longer. The average TR who isn't perm stealth is hurt A LOT more than the perm stealth build.
For the unstealthing on damage, a majority of TRs are squishy as hell and can be demolished by anyone the moment they are visible unless they are specifically PvP specced, which if they are, stealth is the least of your worries. I fought a TR that would regen 1.2k every heal (it was near death so it had 100% regen, but still) and still kept high damage; that is just ridiculous.
As far as a DC goes for fighting against a TR, place down your circles and you literally decrease their damage to essentially nothing that you can't reheal as long as you have some tanking ability (if its a 1v1 and its an average TR). The main issue with TR at the moment is the vorpal enchant which increases their damage by A LOT. Those are the TR which will still be able to nuke you, even if you change stealth to how you have it. Someone mentioned earlier in this topic that they messed with stealth decreasing on attack and it crashed and burned. What you have is way worse than that.
Thanks for giving my character info to the crowd (I am looking for a casual guild now that you've seen my equipment, btw). My name is Helena, nice to meet you.
Anyway, I shall repeat this again and I hope someone understands. I made this post because perma stealth seemed abnormal, I repeat ABNORMAL, to me. It was something that I hadn't seen before. Normally, I read guides on how to counter stuff and how to play better, it's the first time I do it in an MMO, but this perma stealth phenomenon just looked way too exaggerated/buggy for it to be normal in the game. In all the previous matches I played, I was able to face rogues easier but this thing was a surprise.
Just like you said. Once. And this because I had someone with me. But I died like 10 times more whether I had a comrade or not.
Exactly this. They can see the CW, he/she is a mage therefore he/she is long ranged and everyone knows that. Knowing someone is a mage therefore long ranged can predict his/hers actions and decide what to do which is obviously to enter stealth to ambush him/her. And as for the lock down, there have been many cases where I was locked down by TRs or GWFs and unable to react at all because of stun/prone.
"With the force of Wind and Ice , I shall rise..."
You are completely wrong. If you are a DC and you see a rogue approaching and entering stealth, just cast sunburst in divine mode. This will throw him away and most likely end his stealth by the time he recovers. The only way he can be immune to this is by casting ItC, but it will make him visible again.
I often play PvP with a DC and there are only very few rogues that can kill me on 1 vs 1 fight. GWF are much more dangerous, imo.
Again, that's an experience issue. It's been around for a long time, and there are many ways to counter it. If I want my permastealth TR to be much more dangerous, then I don't do permastealth. If I want to cap the back point, have a different kind of fun challenge in PvE, or be entertained by people whining (hate to say it, but some of it can be pretty funny when people demand you play the way that they want you to play so that they have the advantage), then permastealth is the way to go. Against experience PvP'ers it is quite challenging.
So I think you're ignoring the basics of tactical advantage here. You can spec a CW out to be very nasty in close quarters, but they will still have the advantage of long range attacks other classes don't have. A GF is generally as slow as molasses (moving uphill) but they compensate by being able to take a lot of hits - except when played by people who have no idea how to use their core mechanics and some of their skills. Each class has advantages and disadvantages. If you're going to be successful at PvP, it really helps to learn them. If you want to be consistently successful at PvP, remember that it is a team sport and communicate.
In Planetside 2 (mmo), I kill stealthed players with ease. I feel bad for them because they are so easy to kill.
How do I do it?
I correctly guess where the invisible person is, aim in that direction, and shoot.
Unlike NW, Planetside 2 allows me to aim at anything and shoot it.
Only reason stealth is effective in NW pvp is because NW targeting system is restricted and lacks freedom.
A properly designed game would allow players to use any attack, in any direction, without a target.
Now that would be a solution, but hard to implement at this late point in the game.
They cannot be directly targeted, but still take damage from AoE's unless the TR has Impossible to Catch up. Every class has AoE's that can hit a stealthed TR, and unless the TR has Tenacious Concealment as one of their two passives and/or is using the Lurker's Assault daily (which has changed substantially), those AoE's will take the TR right out of stealth.
Even most of the TRs say they are OP.
Stealth/path of blades/ranged attack/crit while stealthed/ the list goes on.
Good luck in defeating the unseen without proper tools or defenses!
TRs consider perma anything but OP!
What you may have seen discussed is high level gameplay with Greater Tenebrous. G.Tene's benefit many builds across many classes, it just so happens to make perma TRs viable due to turning Path of the Blade into a monstrous ability! Even then they can be countered by equivalently geared players.
That is what I was trying to do and what I mostly do. I see a GWF's health not falling? OK let's swap targets I can't kill him. And I turn to a priest or a TR who is unstealthed or another CW.
As for my equipment, I don't justify my gear. I've stopped playing seriously a long time now because of real life (preparations for college) but I think of coming back, I even attempted to enter an epic dungeon, but our tank decided to abandon us in the middle of it (this is the reason I am looking for a guild with casual players).
The thing is I didn't like the fact that some unknown person suddenly posted a screenshot with my character's status out of nowhere and that's why I decided to take it calmly and somewhat humorous if you can name it. If someone would like to check me up, he would. I am not having decent gear, I haven't mastered my CW but hey, you would feel the same too if someone would just show your character in a forum post without even knowing him or at least asking for your approval.
PS: There are some times that only because of my stubborness I face people better equipped than me. This process taught me a lot of things although it is not an advantage :P For example, now I've learnt that I can counter the perma stealth with Icy Terrain. I insisted on confronting that TR that much at this pvp match that I sat down and thought seriously what shall I do to effectively take him out or disable him or kick him away from my point.
"With the force of Wind and Ice , I shall rise..."
Next time don't jump on the nerf band wagon then. That player did not like it you called for nerfs so posted the screenshot of your character's status to show you were under geared. What did you expect? Did you expect other players to like your "hope this to be nerfed... a lot" comment after todesfaelle replied to you?
The posting of your character's status showed you really had no justification to ask for nerfs in my opinion because you are under geared. It would have been different if you had better gear.
BTW, my character's status screen with a detailed description of the build I use is in the forums already in todesfaelle's build thread. I use a crit/stealth build. Crit/Power for PVP and Stealth for PVE.
Permastealth TRs are very weak and not OP themselves. They require Greater Tenebrous enchantments to be OP. The permastealth cookie cutter build specifically calls for Greater Tenebrous enchantments.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
Nope. I didn't expect everyone to like this, I just wanted to be honest. But the truth is... I see many people complaining about the perma stealth, I ain't a psycho that asks for the impossible. And it is exaggerated the fact that someone doesn't exit stealth at all but only for a few miliseconds, I've played a variety of MMOs and this is a new to me. That is what really bothers me. Also, someone said that this build became more common after the merge and I can agree on this because I hadn't faced not even one perma stealth TR in Mindflayer before the merge. If so many people use this build - before the merge- , what the odds are that I haven't faced not even one before the merge? I have played quite a lot matches of PvP in a daily basis before I gave up for a month, if I hadn't I would say ok it just exists and I am not aware of it, I would give up the discussion and I wouldn't insist.
"With the force of Wind and Ice , I shall rise..."
Dragon had both the highest player population and the strongest perma TRs (one of the Lemonade Stand TRs practically popularized a PoB/Regen/G.Tene build entirely himself months before non-beta players even knew of it). Once you face one of those monsters, who is also highly skilled, it is not surprising the build become more popular on Dragon first.
It has not become "more common" after the merge, you are just meeting more of them.
In addition, the fact you did not even meet perma TR's on your own shard shows just how little experience you have of fighting them.
Exactly this. I do not know how to counter them because I've never seen any of them in Mindflayer before. I hope I'll get used to this now...
"With the force of Wind and Ice , I shall rise..."
First, all chars are publicly available, you just need to manually complete the URL.
Second, it's understandable that a TR wouldn't like when people ask nerfs to their class, especially PvP guys that invested in specific gearing/spec a lot of time/AD.
That doesn't make anybody or anything however exempt from the nerfhammer :P After I've seen so many complaining like mad about High Vizier stacking, I feel like I have the right to complain about their HAMSTER too, since they took my favorite toy away. I just don't think anything is worth nerfing though for now, maybe except those lame GTEs that require 0 skill to use and should disappear.
Even better, a specific PvP resilience stat/gear set would be nice, that would greatly reduce stuff like perfect vorpal crits and player damage WoW-style, to make matches longer and more fun. Some classes just have way too much burst, CWs included.
Honesty is anyone asking for nerfs freely showing their character status and build because in my opinion it would add to their credibility when asking for nerfs. A high geared player wanting nerfs has more credibility than an under geared player wanting nerfs in my book. Notice how the majority of the time players ask for nerfs and fail to show their character status/build. It makes you think they are trying to hide something.
The explanation for more of the permastealth builds being seen after the merge is simply the players who use the build are now on one server instead of several servers. To date it seems you have only faced one permastealth build player when the TR community is large. It makes you look like your saying "OMG, I faced one permastealth out of tons of TRs and all TRs must be nerfed!".
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
Nonono, you lost me there. I didn't ask for every type and every build of the TR to be nerfed. All I talk about at this very moment is their endless and impossible to break stealth (topic title).
That's why I said that anyone who would like to check my character he could.
"With the force of Wind and Ice , I shall rise..."
Please, don't appoint yourself to speak for others. Particularly when people create multiple threads to whine about the same thing to make it seem as though it is a widespread problem that must be addressed.
Well, actually you did. I get the fact that you don't know how a TR is played and how the class works. But do you know how many skills the TR uses that are connected to stealth (I believe the answer is 17, but please feel free to check my math)? If you want to nerf stealth, then you are calling for a fundamental change to the TR class. Every TR uses stealth. Are you also aware of the fact that there have already been multiple nerfs to the TR?
Well, I was curious to see how a TR work so I created one but I haven't played him a lot. I will though.
Would a twitch of stealth be bad? Like exiting stealth when hitting or receiving damage as many people said? But this of course will not stay as it is. Right next to this "nerf", it can be added the advantage e.g. which side of the character you attack you get a bonus.
For example:
- Attack from the back: Increased damage, stun/prone with a 100% rate or increased critical rate .
- Attack on the side: Less increased damage than the backstab, debuffs mentioned above applied with a lesser rate.
It is only an example, devs could do a lot more but that's what came to my mind right now.
"With the force of Wind and Ice , I shall rise..."
I'm not in favor of huge nerfs to TRs. The only issues I have a slight beef with are unavoidable Impact Shot chains from stealth and Shocking Execution being a cheesy instant-win button that even the most talentless player can implement by waiting for someone's health to dip (execution skills are necessary to break stalemates, but SE goes through so many defenses that it's difficult or sometimes impossible to avoid even if you correctly anticipate it).
Still, even if they never tweaked those points, I could live with it. I want other players to continue to enjoy the game so that there will continue to be a game to play, and the TR community has swallowed quite a few nerfs in a relatively short time period. Maybe better to look at ways to buff other classes' defensive options than to find more ways to reduce TR effectiveness, especially since all of those nerfs impact PvE gameplay as well.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Enjoy! Check out the TR forums if you want to play around with some different builds. No need to be cookie cutter, but some of them are quite efficient!
In a word, yes. To make any changes to stealth would require a re-work of the TR class. TR's have already had a number of their significant damage dealing skills nerfed some time ago, including Sneak Attack (used to be a damage bonus) and Shocking Execution (which used to do a tremendous amount of damage). Other skills have been changed in a variety of ways, but changing the way that stealth works would be to change the entire class. That's not a small thing from a programming perspective and it is even larger from a gameplay and balance perspective.
Here is what it comes down to for permastealth. Actually permastealth has some significant tradeoffs that make TR's do less damage in exchange for increased survivability. An unstealthed TR is a target for every other class, and as the sole Striker class in the game they can reasonably expect to do tremendous amounts of single target damage. Someone who is not well-geared, particularly defensively, is going to be shredded by a well-geared TR. That being said, there are multiple ways to hit a stealthed TR (again, barring ItC and LA), taking them out of stealth, and taking them out. It is a different playstyle than your average CW who plays a DPS rather than control game in PvP, but also a much more effective one.
I would love some sort of skill that gave me a few seconds of stealth detection. People don't really understand that a decent geared TR with the correct skills will own just about anyone. Nothing like watching your health dropping while you are getting RANGED from stealth...followed by what ever they want to finish you off.
TR is a solid class that has outstanding skills when you look at them ONE skill at a time. The problem comes when they can use various skills at the same time then they become OP.
Speaking as a GWF - When I am on a point and I start getting ranged and path of blades....and there is NOTHING I can do....I run away. Add Tenes and I don't even get that. I get to die or develop ESP in order to PREDICT where the TR MIGHT be standing. The one thing we as GWF can do is fire off our wonderful daily skill that tickles the TR for 300 HP in the hopes of uncovering them.
I guess that makes a CW's Ice Knife a cheesy instant-win button that even the most talentless player can implement without waiting for someone's health to dip. On more than one occasion Ice Knife one shot killed me with full health. Do I want it nerfed? No.
Guess you never heard of following trajectory of the dagger and paying attention to your surroundings. I would like to know the build and gear you are using with pictures if you are killed by cloud of steel so easily.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
Nice addition in the PS section btw.
1. You admitted to not mastering your CW. <-Good
2. You admitted that there are better equipped players. <-Good
3. You admitted that it is a learning process. <- Very Good
You are doing good already. Hopefully you will understand why asking for nerfs looks bad when you were beat by a player who was a master at his class and was better equipped. Nerfing stealth will hurt every member of the TR community and not just permastealths. The better approach to be honest is to nerf the gear used by permastealths that give bonus stealth or nerf tenebrous. The main permastealth build uses Greater Tenebrous. To be honest I am still in shock you were killed by todesfaelle's build since it is comparably weak when it comes to PVP because it focuses only on stealth. It is good you learned how to counter permastealths and hopefully you will continue to learn.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
To me, shocking execution is just a cheap way to play in PvP. The majority of perma stealth TRs that I have fought will do their stealth stuff, throw their knives, do damage that isn't significant with my regen, and then they'll rely on shocking execution to finish the job. Who would want to rely on their daily power to even get a single kill? Not me.
Also, in Rivenscar, if you're on one of the side points, a lot of perma stealth TRs will actually hide in the corner when their stealth meter runs out.
Hyenas@zokir - Essence of Aggression
What about those?
(copy/paste from my previous post)
Would a twitch of stealth be bad? Like exiting stealth when hitting or receiving damage as many people said? But this of course will not stay as it is. Right next to this "nerf", it can be added the advantage of e.g. which side of the character you attack you get a bonus.
For example:
- Attack from the back: Increased damage, stun/prone with a 100% rate or increased critical rate .
- Attack on the side: Less increased damage than the backstab, debuffs mentioned above applied with a lesser rate.
"With the force of Wind and Ice , I shall rise..."