In PVP I am a terror. I can rotate kill almost anyone.
Sure. Any gwf can kill almost anyone. With the exception of the CWs, GFs, TRs, DCs, and Sent/Tene/DF gwfs.
After all who was in final of the 1v1 pvp tournament? Two gwfs? Nope, two CWs.
After all, all the bots in PvP are gwfs? Nope, they're TRs.
The problem with GWF's, and all classes (besides tene's) is the paragon tier feat paths.
The developers have built us classes within classes. And what we really need is to be able to pick and choose from all of those paragon feats, and take away the class divide.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Before the AP nerf I was holding down 1st in kills and 1st in DPS in regards to PVE. Now i just hold first in kills.
In PVP I am a terror. I can rotate kill almost anyone.
The only problems I have are the TR/1 shot/2 shot/geared to the teeth/tene owners. Also the full troll sent/tene/lifedrinker build.
You can rotate kill anyone when you aren't proned and killed within 3 seconds you mean? I have tried every different spec and gear combo and the only thing that survives long enough to be successful is sentinel. I have a DPS build that is sent, I still nearly kill in 1 rotation (I would kill with P. vorpal) but I maintain 34k HP, ~51% DR , 35% deflect with weapon master stacks.
Why is the most successful build a troll build also? This DPS version I use vs. pugs but if I were to play my GWF in a big competitive match I would go full tank (no tene) Lifedrinker and either bloodtheft or soulforged. That is where the GWF shines in PvP, he is an awesome back point holder forcing the enemy team to send 2 against him. Why does that make him a troll if he plays to his strengths?
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
^^ We would just ignore you and force mid and your home node. You can stand there all day or you will be forced off and have to abandon post. Which means when someone spawns they can recapture and continue pressing your base. The meta is changing. Just takes time to educate folks on proper tactics in regards to certain party compositions.
It is a troll build since it is **** near impossible to kill. Add soulforged, blooddrinker, regen, lifesteal and you are a mini t2 boss.
You can rotate kill anyone when you aren't proned and killed within 3 seconds you mean? I have tried every different spec and gear combo and the only thing that survives long enough to be successful is sentinel. I have a DPS build that is sent, I still nearly kill in 1 rotation (I would kill with P. vorpal) but I maintain 34k HP, ~51% DR , 35% deflect with weapon master stacks.
Why is the most successful build a troll build also? This DPS version I use vs. pugs but if I were to play my GWF in a big competitive match I would go full tank (no tene) Lifedrinker and either bloodtheft or soulforged. That is where the GWF shines in PvP, he is an awesome back point holder forcing the enemy team to send 2 against him. Why does that make him a troll if he plays to his strengths?
Do you think that your survivability is situational, and may be different for others? Real question, not argument.
Reason I ask is because I have had to realize, with several strong GWF's in my guild, that individual playstyles vary greatly. My 28k HP lasts far longer in battle than my buddies 36k, and he's wearing a full regen and titan set. Of course, he plays very aggressively, in the opponents face almost constantly, and does very little moving besides aggressing. He runs up, stands still, and swings his sword.
Even when I'm on point, I move around alot. This lowers my damage, but hey, I'm a sentinel GWF. My damage is low to begin with. I use takedown and flourish to keep my enemy wanting to run from me, but in the meantime, I'm not sitting still to get hit, either.
I just think that a lot of players like the 'troll build' because it requires less interaction, less work. Just sit still and let the hits come. But arguably, I don't think that's where the GWF shines. When they come out of left field and smash faces, that's where they shine. The current Arena FoTM (and this fad WILL pass, mark my words) leaves a common group of GWF's who are generally successrful, but not utilizing the class to it's full potential.
In the end, both you, Cribstaxxx, and Tarmalen may both be exceptional GWF players. I honestly feel that our class is strong enough to allow two very distinct playstyles to be used to maximum efficiency.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
^^ We would just ignore you and force mid and your home node. You can stand there all day or you will be forced off and have to abandon post. Which means when someone spawns they can recapture and continue pressing your base. The meta is changing. Just takes time to educate folks on proper tactics in regards to certain party compositions.
It is a troll build since it is **** near impossible to kill. Add soulforged, blooddrinker, regen, lifesteal and you are a mini t2 boss.
So you would completely ignore a node giving us free reign to hold it the entire game? You haven't played competitive PvP have you lol?
games can easily take 40+ minutes b/c of constant contesting of points, simply give us 1 point and you will be steamrolled 1000-100 or so.
@lobo: Yes you're right HP is not everything. The sent spec, defense, deflect, and regen add just as much to survivability as HP, also armor/weapon enchant choices. The point is that a full DPS setup (ie destroyer/instigator and AoW or fabled set or even 2 pc aow 2pc vigilant) Is going to be able to be focused and killed within 5 seconds, even if it's only by 2 enemies.
Yes it's true that the sent build requires less interaction, hitting tab, using restoring strike, sprinting away to the potion or just to regen when necessary, but I think making your build is part of the skill that goes into pvp. I had a Sent GWF in PvP long before they were "cool" and overused. I have never just gone on the forum, found a guide, and followed it. With the DPS build I'm running I've only seen 1 other person with a similar loadout and it's a friend of mine that I shared the build with lol.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
You can stand on 1 node all day long. Whoopie. Controling 2 nodes as opposed to 1 node wins every time.
Now either you stand there all by your lonesome or you come help contest 2. Once that happens whoever spawns at home just goes and caps it back. I have been in those long matches simply because both sides were equal and both sides adjusted to how things are going.
You can stand on 1 node all day long. Whoopie. Controling 2 nodes as opposed to 1 node wins every time.
Now either you stand there all by your lonesome or you come help contest 2. Once that happens whoever spawns at home just goes and caps it back.
GWF hits 2 while uncontested, immediately retreats to 3 when contested. Feel free to challenge us, you can even make all the rules. Rainbow team, no more than 2 of each class, any comp etc. If your strat is to ignore your point completely when contested we would be glad to make an AD wager on winning 1000-500 or better lol.
Edit: I know you are a great PvE player Tarmalen, you have made many great posts and done all the number crunching for GWF's and all of it is very good. PvP is an entirely different story however and DPS without survivability is meaningless. What I'm talking about is based on playing with the best of the best PvP players from all shards with equal gear, I'm telling you first hand GWF back capping wins games, not trying to be a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> or anything.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I spoke about one of many tactics in how to deal with a sent build. You getting lured out to mid to help out IS the point. Focused and dead. You now have to rezz and run back to REcap the point. Since we are AVOIDING you we simply go and play the same game on YOUR node with a focus on KEEPING mid. Geez....there is a REASON we don't send someone 1 v 1 on you.... We haven't even discussed perma stealth rogues...now things go to the next level...OVER9000!
And yes back capping does win games, regardless of class.
GWF hits 2 while uncontested, immediately retreats to 3 when contested. Feel free to challenge us, you can even make all the rules. Rainbow team, no more than 2 of each class, any comp etc. If your strat is to ignore your point completely when contested we would be glad to make an AD wager on winning 1000-500 or better lol.
Edit: I know you are a great PvE player Tarmalen, you have made many great posts and done all the number crunching for GWF's and all of it is very good. PvP is an entirely different story however and DPS without survivability is meaningless. What I'm talking about is based on playing with the best of the best PvP players from all shards with equal gear, I'm telling you first hand GWF back capping wins games, not trying to be a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> or anything.
But I think Tarmalen is right about how the better teams are adapting to the GWF back-cap strategy. I've seen a double team rolling a debuff CW and TR to maximize a quick kill on a sent GWF. They just roll back and forth, and snap up the GWF whenever they hit him.
It'll get better. We're going to see a lot of tactics come through, and if we ever get new game-modes and maps, even more will evolve. The GWF cap strategy is heavily used right now, but it's days are numbered.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
I spoke about one of many tactics in how to deal with a sent build. You getting lured out to mid to help out IS the point. Focused and dead. You now have to rezz and run back to REcap the point. Since we are AVOIDING you we simply go and play the same game on YOUR node with a focus on KEEPING mid. Geez....there is a REASON we don't send someone 1 v 1 on you....
But that simply isn't true lol, to have enough people to focus GWF instantly you need to have at least 4 on 2 (you aren't controlling 1) and your team must have no teammates at 2 to help you, which with good coordination even if our players at 2 are killed we will wait until they respawn to jointly attack 2 together with GWF from opposite side. I've heard so much talk about imbalance and how gear and class combo's are what win PvP. But to be honest I think tactics, strategy, and coordination make up about 50% of what it takes to win competitive GvG matches.
No one ever believes me when I just say it on the forums though, that is the reason I wanted to play against you. Not because I want to stroke my E-peen or tell everyone else how much we crushed you, or any of that nonsense. I know that it's the only way people will believe me when I say "X strategy is efficient".
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
We usually use a perma instead. His entire job is to not be there when they come back to contest/cap. Now either they stand there to protect the node or they run off and rogue hops back on it. I hate permas...unless they are on my team.
We usually use a perma instead. His entire job is to not be there when they come back to contest/cap. Now either they stand there to protect the node or they run off and rogue hops back on it.
Which leaves a 4v4 matchup, except that our GWF is filling his role but your team wasted their TR slot on a character that isn't going to affect the game at all. Where as our TR will be assasinating your CW at his leisure lol. This is of course assuming a Rainbow or 2 of each class max comp, if you want to do free for all comp we won't even be bringing a GWF =P
Ok, I won't be on for about 5 more hours either, I only go on forums at work heh
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
i dont rly like the gwf sent for node caps, reason being that if u send a GF after him, gwf will lose that node slowly but surely. Havent seen a full tene vs tene fight between the 2 classes but i assume is a draw provided enough hp and regen to survive bursts. GF can force gwf off the node so gwf is losing.
I can't see so much problems in GWF maybe some skill fix (to add some effects to useless Encounters/At-Will).
We need a bit more Crit Rate because this is pure DPS and easy land on def debuff which one is usable by other classes.
So the real problem is not GWF (or GF) the real problem is CW. Devs must fix this class by any way. Maybe not so much control targets like 20 but 5-7 or to not do so much AOE. Or anything, this class break the game.
At moment I can ask - is there any good reason to add something different in one party than 4xCW ? They will do fastest most things in the game than any other combination - so so... Fix the CW !
Yes in the game there is and a bit other problems but ok they will be fixed someday and they do not break the game so terrible.
I can't see so much problems in GWF maybe some skill fix (to add some effects to useless Encounters/At-Will).
We need a bit more Crit Rate because this is pure DPS and easy land on def debuff which one is usable by other classes.
So the real problem is not GWF (or GF) the real problem is CW. Devs must fix this class by any way. Maybe not so much control targets like 20 but 5-7 or to not do so much AOE. Or anything, this class break the game.
At moment I can ask - is there any good reason to add something different in one party than 4xCW ? They will do fastest most things in the game than any other combination - so so... Fix the CW !
Yes in the game there is and a bit other problems but ok they will be fixed someday and they do not break the game so terrible.
The game will not survive such a massive nerf to the CW period. Half the player base is now CW's many of them Former GWF's that just gave up the class. if The devs nerf the CW's do you think those players will go back to thier GWF's?. No they will quit. nerf after nerf after endless nerf is how cryptic loses its players. The game is at an all time low in population and that will not get any better unless the devs put away the nerf bat amd start buffing.
First off all. if The GWF is not buffed and the CW is nerfed. I'm not going to be looking for a GWF to fill the 2nd or 3rd CW spot. I'll get a 2nd GF. GF's are better than GWF's in every way, and still the GF need something done for tanks to be more viable in game.
GWF need to be buffed in 2 ways. Buff them to be tanks on Par with GF's. This would be good when new DPS classes get released. It would be also like releasing a new tank class along with them. Because as we all know GWF's are useless.
Or Buff there control and damage to be on par with the CW. Then they need something unique as well like a group damage or crit buff. Or somethign that players will say we need a GWF for "X" move. This would be the best fix as no one will be mad about it. I as a GF player might be a little miffed if GWF became another tank class, but Hey I know I will have to face Paladin someday so other tnak classes will eventually come out.
Once again I'll say. Do not nerf the CW's how do you think the players of CW's will react if you make them less effective than a GWF in order for a GWF to be a viable member of the group?
Now ask yourself how do you think CW players will react if GWF got buffed and then took a CW spot in party?
If buffing the GWF makes dungeons too easy... buff the dungeons. But I doubt that will happen until 9200 GS parties start to easily Beat T2 dungeons. And no buff will make that happen.
I got tired of trying to rationalize the situation. All we gave good suggestions and nothing. for now I am part of a guild all "free for play " and I will have fun at the expense of the crypt. if the game is over, it's over. The company continues "headbanging", finding that the demand for pvp is the flagship of the game, and not the consequence of an unbalanced pve.
Incidentally, if they look the falls from one period to another and not join the cause and consequence, or am I wrong in my predictions, or they are dumb. I any case, no makes sense to work for free for a boss who did not even hear us.
So the real problem is not GWF (or GF) the real problem is CW. Devs must fix this class by any way. Maybe not so much control targets like 20 but 5-7 or to not do so much AOE. Or anything, this class break the game.
At moment I can ask - is there any good reason to add something different in one party than 4xCW ? They will do fastest most things in the game than any other combination - so so... Fix the CW !
Yes in the game there is and a bit other problems but ok they will be fixed someday and they do not break the game so terrible.
The thing is, which I has already stated, is that the GWF is great at their job, just look at PvP.. They can successfully go offtanks while having respectable damage, the problem is, we don't need this in PvE, what do we need to tank?
The problem isn't that the CW is OP, that the GWF could use more threat generation, that he needs better AoE damage, the problem is, his job isn't needed. He brings NOTHING the the table that a skilled party needs. The reason you see groups with 3 CW's, 1 TR, 1 DC is because this group is running full DPS glasscannon, they can't tank, they can't control the agro properly, instead they go for dealing as much damage as they can, and hoping that it will suffice, which it does.
The GWF is an offtank, a bruiser, a fighter who is capable of taking a beating if needed, but it's not needed; as dungeons are so extremely easy for a well geared party you don't need a tank.. If you nerfed the CW control, little would change, people would still form the party the same way, 1 healer, 1 controller, 2 AoE masters, 1 Solo target nuker. The best way to do this is currently 3 CW's, 1 TR, 1 DC.
The meta will stay like this as long as people are geared and skilled enough to do dungeons without the need of a tank, and no, simply buffing the GWF's AoE isn't a solution.
If they buffed the GWF's AoE without nerfing it's survivability to make it more viable in hyper geared groups, they would offset the damage/survivability balance. All classes must have about the same options for tradeoff in this balance, a CW and TR has sacrificed survivability in form of HP and Defense in exchange for damage and survives via controlling mobs/stealth, a DC has traded their survivability for healing and survives via healing and damage reduction, a GWF has instead gone for more survivability, and less damage, whilethe GF has taken this even further.
To offset this balance by giving the GWF top class damage AND survivability would simply make it OP, GWF's has to realize that they don't deal the same damage as a glass cannon, and the meta is that glasscannons are better since the dungeons are so easy.
The way I think this balance should be solved is buffing MC, CN, all T2's and make some of the T1 dungeons a tad easier. The fact CN is reasonably easily doable on 4 people, without any exploits, just proves how unnecessary a tank is.. We could A. add another DPS/CCer to the party, or B. a low DPS player who helps us surviving damage, which we did fine w/o him... Option A sounds a lot more reasonable as it would give us a lot more damage, which means faster clear, in exchange for less survivability (but still a lot more than when we 4-manned it).
So there's your problem, it's not the GWF being weak and not useful, it's that he offers something we don't need, nor want.
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zardoz007Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited October 2013
IE Missmozie, GWF need a solid role in the group. And the roles that are needed are Tank (to lesser extend but it s a role), Controller (CC mobs making them unable to fight back), and Utility Healing/Buffing.
We can't add damage dealer as you pointed out it seems balanced to survivability to damage done. Which I do agree with. GWF and GF are very close on survivability and Damage. GWF have a slight damage edge, only because there gear is damage focused when GF arnt, but GWF powers are worse. GF also have Tanking powers, Control Powers and Buffing Powers that overshadow anything a GWF has. GWF really need an overhaul to have a list of useful control, tanking and buffing powers that help the entire party and not just themselves/
Look at all GWF powers they all help only the GWF and not a single other player. GWF buff there own damage with Battle Furor an absolutely terrible buff. GWF Buff there own defense with Daring shout but can't use it to tank for the group as they have no threat. GWF heal themselves with Restoring Strike. This is the theme and the reason no one wants them in a group they cannot be a team player.
I got tired of trying to rationalize the situation. All we gave good suggestions and nothing. for now I am part of a guild all "free for play " and I will have fun at the expense of the crypt. if the game is over, it's over. The company continues "headbanging", finding that the demand for pvp is the flagship of the game, and not the consequence of an unbalanced pve.
Incidentally, if they look the falls from one period to another and not join the cause and consequence, or am I wrong in my predictions, or they are dumb. I any case, no makes sense to work for free for a boss who did not even hear us.
True on so many levels.
Wait another month or two and watch a further decline when folks tire of pvp due to numerous reasons.
I got tired of trying to rationalize the situation. All we gave good suggestions and nothing. for now I am part of a guild all "free for play " and I will have fun at the expense of the crypt. if the game is over, it's over. The company continues "headbanging", finding that the demand for pvp is the flagship of the game, and not the consequence of an unbalanced pve.
Incidentally, if they look the falls from one period to another and not join the cause and consequence, or am I wrong in my predictions, or they are dumb. I any case, no makes sense to work for free for a boss who did not even hear us.
Exactly right and this mentality is what I believe started this thread in the first place. I liked the idea of Fighters on Strike. We can't post any more than we already have. Even this entire thread is nothing but rehash of posts that have already been made and beaten that dead horse over and over again.
I get on the GWF band wagon because I want to see change made to the GF to make tanking and defensive specs more viable. I know how horrible horrible the GWF is compared to the GF, with there situation and I just can't ask for tweaks to the GF when the GWF needs a complete over haul just to be a viable class.
And since we are beating a dead horse anyway.
A GWF pure damage spec does about the same damage as a GF pure damage spec with less survivability and single target damage and maybe a bit better AOE.
A GWF's CC is all single target, Flourish and takedown being the only good ones. Will not count slam as it is only useful in a single fight that no one brings GWF too because CW can do it anyways. For GWF to be viable and not be tanks they need more CC than a GF. Why not take a page from Champions Online, let the guys with big swords have tons of knock back and knockdown powers then deal extra damage with those powers against monsters immune to these effects.
GWF's buff's are the worst of any class.
GWF's Single target damage AT-will (Sure Strike) is the worst of any class. It's even worse than GF Aoe cleave for single target DPS
GWF's AOE damage encounters and dailies are the worst of Any class (comparable power to power not counting TR as they have none)
GWF's are the only class with out a shift dodge move, sure the sprint is fine, and can be used to move out of the way of red circles. But it does not compare to a true dodge/block power that lets you take no damage even when in red. The best suggestion I've seen for this is to give the GWF +50% deflection chance while Sprinting. Giving them a half measure for avoiding damage.
GWF's are defined soley by there Weapon masters Strike and Wicked Strike. This is 75% of the classes damage dealt. GWF's one and only tactic is move to grouped mobs and swing till you only have 2 mobs or less left then find greater number of mobs move and keep swinging. Trust me. Try playing GWF without using either of these at wills and see what kind of damage they do.
So theres the Dead horse, and Imma beat it good. Saving up all my <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and vinegar for when the GF complaints can come to light.
Assuming from now that I'm just goofing off without any ambition for "respect", I kicked the bucket and decided to use the master strike + reaping strike (Executioner's Style) and I have been surprised at the damage / ap and even realize how strong I went from being at the time of the beta to ignore this combination.
Anyway, something that took me to realize it only now the necessity obliged me, is that gwf in the past was much better than the cw in pve today ; explain: Currently I use punishing charge against bosses, ap build with speed "ok" and use alavanch of steel "after" the singularity ... until then, bull****. But let's go back in time, the time when the roar generated ap . Imagine 3 gwf, focusing on recovery taking turns this daily? It was a "infinity combo " we missed for lack of ambition. We could even dispense dc, leaving a rogue for the boss.
We were supposed to have been the prestige class in pve.
I just don't know the reason WHY would you take GWF instead of any other class. CW? Nope, they have a lot more CC, a lot more aoe and single target damage, a lot more debuffs. TR? Nope, only of you're gonna make a hard mode dungeon with killing bosses twice as long. GF? GWF can't tank that well, he can't keep aggro well, 'cause if he's dps specced, he deals much damage to hold mobs, but dies very quickly, and if he's sentinel, he can't deal that much damage to hold aggro (inb4 "I'm sentinel gwf with perfect lightning and 10 lvl enchants and I disapprove" **** you), can't taunt from afar.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
GWF does have his strong points as a tank, he just needs to be well geared, which includes either greater/perfect lightning or bronzewood. GWF can live longer without heals than GF (usually) and he does more damage even as sent (usually). The feat that gives come and get it and daring shout more threat should instead make those 2 abilities a 3-5 second taunt, that would fix 90% of GWF's tank problems.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I just don't know the reason WHY would you take GWF instead of any other class. CW? Nope, they have a lot more CC, a lot more aoe and single target damage, a lot more debuffs. TR? Nope, only of you're gonna make a hard mode dungeon with killing bosses twice as long. GF? GWF can't tank that well, he can't keep aggro well, 'cause if he's dps specced, he deals much damage to hold mobs, but dies very quickly, and if he's sentinel, he can't deal that much damage to hold aggro (inb4 "I'm sentinel gwf with perfect lightning and 10 lvl enchants and I disapprove" **** you), can't taunt from afar.
cw dont have more damage, they have more burst but dps is way lower and unless its some dungeon where u either push/run or have a lot of 1hit mobs(3 health bar) a good gwf should be ahead/tied, but yea cw pve dmg is THE problem of GWF a class that supposed to specialize on control, they even have it in class name SHOULDNT do same damage as class that SUPPOSED to be AoE class. cw would still have a slot in party if they did 1/3rd of their current aoe dmg. leave their single target damage for PvP and nerf their aoe dmg to hell, simple solution, ppl wouldnt take 2 in party since it would ruin their damage, no more permanent singularity so there would be need for somebody to tank(GF) and there would be a demand for AoE dps(GWF)
I just want devs to make some of GWS's encounter abilities to generate additional aggro, like Daring Shout and Come And Get It (no, I won't take that useless feat), let them work the way Enforced Threat works. And I will be half happy.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
Since the boost of roar (generates now determination),in pve i find Destroyer to be at the same level as a Conqueror GF, same dmg and is even more resilient only lacks a bit on threat partially because i only run a lesser avenger on it. Sentinel build is just not on the same lvl unfortunately:(, did a t2 run the other days with my GF and a 14k sent, he couldnt grab a single mob and finished the dungeon at half of my dmg,that tree really needs a boost in term of threat cause atm is a joke and that cap on instigator tree...
The problem isn't that the CW is OP, that the GWF could use more threat generation, that he needs better AoE damage, the problem is, his job isn't needed. He brings NOTHING the the table that a skilled party needs. The reason you see groups with 3 CW's, 1 TR, 1 DC is because this group is running full DPS glasscannon, they can't tank, they can't control the agro properly, instead they go for dealing as much damage as they can, and hoping that it will suffice, which it does.
Nerf Cw's ability to control the crowd, and no one will go to dungeons. Because even PK will become close to impossible due to enormously huge amount of adds. And CN?
It is not CW problem, it is dungeon mechanic problem. Too much trash, too many adds on boss, too little brain choice. That refers to CN in the first place! And that is the reason why GWF can't find his place there.
Most of the dungeons my CW can do with one particular loadout. I wish I would have to switch my skills during the run for every specific situation. But i also wish for the run not to be 3 hours! But instead - 45 minutes as it is stated. I want short road to boss - and tough boss fight not because of adds, but because of the boss itself. Currently no boss needs to be tanked, really. Each one of them is easy. But instead, adds are deadly. WHY? I struggle to understand it but fail
Imagine a boss fight where boss changes his behavior all the time. And every class gets his chance to shine in certain moments. I believe that would be the solution to GF/GWF problem.
But not nerfing CWs. Nerf hammer is not the best solution to game balancing.
Comments
Sure. Any gwf can kill almost anyone. With the exception of the CWs, GFs, TRs, DCs, and Sent/Tene/DF gwfs.
After all who was in final of the 1v1 pvp tournament? Two gwfs? Nope, two CWs.
After all, all the bots in PvP are gwfs? Nope, they're TRs.
The developers have built us classes within classes. And what we really need is to be able to pick and choose from all of those paragon feats, and take away the class divide.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
You can rotate kill anyone when you aren't proned and killed within 3 seconds you mean? I have tried every different spec and gear combo and the only thing that survives long enough to be successful is sentinel. I have a DPS build that is sent, I still nearly kill in 1 rotation (I would kill with P. vorpal) but I maintain 34k HP, ~51% DR , 35% deflect with weapon master stacks.
Why is the most successful build a troll build also? This DPS version I use vs. pugs but if I were to play my GWF in a big competitive match I would go full tank (no tene) Lifedrinker and either bloodtheft or soulforged. That is where the GWF shines in PvP, he is an awesome back point holder forcing the enemy team to send 2 against him. Why does that make him a troll if he plays to his strengths?
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
It is a troll build since it is **** near impossible to kill. Add soulforged, blooddrinker, regen, lifesteal and you are a mini t2 boss.
Do you think that your survivability is situational, and may be different for others? Real question, not argument.
Reason I ask is because I have had to realize, with several strong GWF's in my guild, that individual playstyles vary greatly. My 28k HP lasts far longer in battle than my buddies 36k, and he's wearing a full regen and titan set. Of course, he plays very aggressively, in the opponents face almost constantly, and does very little moving besides aggressing. He runs up, stands still, and swings his sword.
Even when I'm on point, I move around alot. This lowers my damage, but hey, I'm a sentinel GWF. My damage is low to begin with. I use takedown and flourish to keep my enemy wanting to run from me, but in the meantime, I'm not sitting still to get hit, either.
I just think that a lot of players like the 'troll build' because it requires less interaction, less work. Just sit still and let the hits come. But arguably, I don't think that's where the GWF shines. When they come out of left field and smash faces, that's where they shine. The current Arena FoTM (and this fad WILL pass, mark my words) leaves a common group of GWF's who are generally successrful, but not utilizing the class to it's full potential.
In the end, both you, Cribstaxxx, and Tarmalen may both be exceptional GWF players. I honestly feel that our class is strong enough to allow two very distinct playstyles to be used to maximum efficiency.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
So you would completely ignore a node giving us free reign to hold it the entire game? You haven't played competitive PvP have you lol?
games can easily take 40+ minutes b/c of constant contesting of points, simply give us 1 point and you will be steamrolled 1000-100 or so.
@lobo: Yes you're right HP is not everything. The sent spec, defense, deflect, and regen add just as much to survivability as HP, also armor/weapon enchant choices. The point is that a full DPS setup (ie destroyer/instigator and AoW or fabled set or even 2 pc aow 2pc vigilant) Is going to be able to be focused and killed within 5 seconds, even if it's only by 2 enemies.
Yes it's true that the sent build requires less interaction, hitting tab, using restoring strike, sprinting away to the potion or just to regen when necessary, but I think making your build is part of the skill that goes into pvp. I had a Sent GWF in PvP long before they were "cool" and overused. I have never just gone on the forum, found a guide, and followed it. With the DPS build I'm running I've only seen 1 other person with a similar loadout and it's a friend of mine that I shared the build with lol.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
You can stand on 1 node all day long. Whoopie. Controling 2 nodes as opposed to 1 node wins every time.
Now either you stand there all by your lonesome or you come help contest 2. Once that happens whoever spawns at home just goes and caps it back. I have been in those long matches simply because both sides were equal and both sides adjusted to how things are going.
GWF hits 2 while uncontested, immediately retreats to 3 when contested. Feel free to challenge us, you can even make all the rules. Rainbow team, no more than 2 of each class, any comp etc. If your strat is to ignore your point completely when contested we would be glad to make an AD wager on winning 1000-500 or better lol.
Edit: I know you are a great PvE player Tarmalen, you have made many great posts and done all the number crunching for GWF's and all of it is very good. PvP is an entirely different story however and DPS without survivability is meaningless. What I'm talking about is based on playing with the best of the best PvP players from all shards with equal gear, I'm telling you first hand GWF back capping wins games, not trying to be a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> or anything.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
And yes back capping does win games, regardless of class.
But I think Tarmalen is right about how the better teams are adapting to the GWF back-cap strategy. I've seen a double team rolling a debuff CW and TR to maximize a quick kill on a sent GWF. They just roll back and forth, and snap up the GWF whenever they hit him.
It'll get better. We're going to see a lot of tactics come through, and if we ever get new game-modes and maps, even more will evolve. The GWF cap strategy is heavily used right now, but it's days are numbered.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
But that simply isn't true lol, to have enough people to focus GWF instantly you need to have at least 4 on 2 (you aren't controlling 1) and your team must have no teammates at 2 to help you, which with good coordination even if our players at 2 are killed we will wait until they respawn to jointly attack 2 together with GWF from opposite side. I've heard so much talk about imbalance and how gear and class combo's are what win PvP. But to be honest I think tactics, strategy, and coordination make up about 50% of what it takes to win competitive GvG matches.
No one ever believes me when I just say it on the forums though, that is the reason I wanted to play against you. Not because I want to stroke my E-peen or tell everyone else how much we crushed you, or any of that nonsense. I know that it's the only way people will believe me when I say "X strategy is efficient".
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Which leaves a 4v4 matchup, except that our GWF is filling his role but your team wasted their TR slot on a character that isn't going to affect the game at all. Where as our TR will be assasinating your CW at his leisure lol. This is of course assuming a Rainbow or 2 of each class max comp, if you want to do free for all comp we won't even be bringing a GWF =P
Ok, I won't be on for about 5 more hours either, I only go on forums at work heh
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
We need a bit more Crit Rate because this is pure DPS and easy land on def debuff which one is usable by other classes.
So the real problem is not GWF (or GF) the real problem is CW. Devs must fix this class by any way. Maybe not so much control targets like 20 but 5-7 or to not do so much AOE. Or anything, this class break the game.
At moment I can ask - is there any good reason to add something different in one party than 4xCW ? They will do fastest most things in the game than any other combination - so so... Fix the CW !
Yes in the game there is and a bit other problems but ok they will be fixed someday and they do not break the game so terrible.
The game will not survive such a massive nerf to the CW period. Half the player base is now CW's many of them Former GWF's that just gave up the class. if The devs nerf the CW's do you think those players will go back to thier GWF's?. No they will quit. nerf after nerf after endless nerf is how cryptic loses its players. The game is at an all time low in population and that will not get any better unless the devs put away the nerf bat amd start buffing.
First off all. if The GWF is not buffed and the CW is nerfed. I'm not going to be looking for a GWF to fill the 2nd or 3rd CW spot. I'll get a 2nd GF. GF's are better than GWF's in every way, and still the GF need something done for tanks to be more viable in game.
GWF need to be buffed in 2 ways. Buff them to be tanks on Par with GF's. This would be good when new DPS classes get released. It would be also like releasing a new tank class along with them. Because as we all know GWF's are useless.
Or Buff there control and damage to be on par with the CW. Then they need something unique as well like a group damage or crit buff. Or somethign that players will say we need a GWF for "X" move. This would be the best fix as no one will be mad about it. I as a GF player might be a little miffed if GWF became another tank class, but Hey I know I will have to face Paladin someday so other tnak classes will eventually come out.
Once again I'll say. Do not nerf the CW's how do you think the players of CW's will react if you make them less effective than a GWF in order for a GWF to be a viable member of the group?
Now ask yourself how do you think CW players will react if GWF got buffed and then took a CW spot in party?
If buffing the GWF makes dungeons too easy... buff the dungeons. But I doubt that will happen until 9200 GS parties start to easily Beat T2 dungeons. And no buff will make that happen.
Incidentally, if they look the falls from one period to another and not join the cause and consequence, or am I wrong in my predictions, or they are dumb. I any case, no makes sense to work for free for a boss who did not even hear us.
The problem isn't that the CW is OP, that the GWF could use more threat generation, that he needs better AoE damage, the problem is, his job isn't needed. He brings NOTHING the the table that a skilled party needs. The reason you see groups with 3 CW's, 1 TR, 1 DC is because this group is running full DPS glasscannon, they can't tank, they can't control the agro properly, instead they go for dealing as much damage as they can, and hoping that it will suffice, which it does.
The GWF is an offtank, a bruiser, a fighter who is capable of taking a beating if needed, but it's not needed; as dungeons are so extremely easy for a well geared party you don't need a tank.. If you nerfed the CW control, little would change, people would still form the party the same way, 1 healer, 1 controller, 2 AoE masters, 1 Solo target nuker. The best way to do this is currently 3 CW's, 1 TR, 1 DC.
The meta will stay like this as long as people are geared and skilled enough to do dungeons without the need of a tank, and no, simply buffing the GWF's AoE isn't a solution.
If they buffed the GWF's AoE without nerfing it's survivability to make it more viable in hyper geared groups, they would offset the damage/survivability balance. All classes must have about the same options for tradeoff in this balance, a CW and TR has sacrificed survivability in form of HP and Defense in exchange for damage and survives via controlling mobs/stealth, a DC has traded their survivability for healing and survives via healing and damage reduction, a GWF has instead gone for more survivability, and less damage, whilethe GF has taken this even further.
To offset this balance by giving the GWF top class damage AND survivability would simply make it OP, GWF's has to realize that they don't deal the same damage as a glass cannon, and the meta is that glasscannons are better since the dungeons are so easy.
The way I think this balance should be solved is buffing MC, CN, all T2's and make some of the T1 dungeons a tad easier. The fact CN is reasonably easily doable on 4 people, without any exploits, just proves how unnecessary a tank is.. We could A. add another DPS/CCer to the party, or B. a low DPS player who helps us surviving damage, which we did fine w/o him... Option A sounds a lot more reasonable as it would give us a lot more damage, which means faster clear, in exchange for less survivability (but still a lot more than when we 4-manned it).
So there's your problem, it's not the GWF being weak and not useful, it's that he offers something we don't need, nor want.
We can't add damage dealer as you pointed out it seems balanced to survivability to damage done. Which I do agree with. GWF and GF are very close on survivability and Damage. GWF have a slight damage edge, only because there gear is damage focused when GF arnt, but GWF powers are worse. GF also have Tanking powers, Control Powers and Buffing Powers that overshadow anything a GWF has. GWF really need an overhaul to have a list of useful control, tanking and buffing powers that help the entire party and not just themselves/
Look at all GWF powers they all help only the GWF and not a single other player. GWF buff there own damage with Battle Furor an absolutely terrible buff. GWF Buff there own defense with Daring shout but can't use it to tank for the group as they have no threat. GWF heal themselves with Restoring Strike. This is the theme and the reason no one wants them in a group they cannot be a team player.
True on so many levels.
Wait another month or two and watch a further decline when folks tire of pvp due to numerous reasons.
Exactly right and this mentality is what I believe started this thread in the first place. I liked the idea of Fighters on Strike. We can't post any more than we already have. Even this entire thread is nothing but rehash of posts that have already been made and beaten that dead horse over and over again.
I get on the GWF band wagon because I want to see change made to the GF to make tanking and defensive specs more viable. I know how horrible horrible the GWF is compared to the GF, with there situation and I just can't ask for tweaks to the GF when the GWF needs a complete over haul just to be a viable class.
And since we are beating a dead horse anyway.
A GWF pure damage spec does about the same damage as a GF pure damage spec with less survivability and single target damage and maybe a bit better AOE.
A GWF's CC is all single target, Flourish and takedown being the only good ones. Will not count slam as it is only useful in a single fight that no one brings GWF too because CW can do it anyways. For GWF to be viable and not be tanks they need more CC than a GF. Why not take a page from Champions Online, let the guys with big swords have tons of knock back and knockdown powers then deal extra damage with those powers against monsters immune to these effects.
GWF's buff's are the worst of any class.
GWF's Single target damage AT-will (Sure Strike) is the worst of any class. It's even worse than GF Aoe cleave for single target DPS
GWF's AOE damage encounters and dailies are the worst of Any class (comparable power to power not counting TR as they have none)
GWF's are the only class with out a shift dodge move, sure the sprint is fine, and can be used to move out of the way of red circles. But it does not compare to a true dodge/block power that lets you take no damage even when in red. The best suggestion I've seen for this is to give the GWF +50% deflection chance while Sprinting. Giving them a half measure for avoiding damage.
GWF's are defined soley by there Weapon masters Strike and Wicked Strike. This is 75% of the classes damage dealt. GWF's one and only tactic is move to grouped mobs and swing till you only have 2 mobs or less left then find greater number of mobs move and keep swinging. Trust me. Try playing GWF without using either of these at wills and see what kind of damage they do.
So theres the Dead horse, and Imma beat it good. Saving up all my <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and vinegar for when the GF complaints can come to light.
Anyway, something that took me to realize it only now the necessity obliged me, is that gwf in the past was much better than the cw in pve today ; explain: Currently I use punishing charge against bosses, ap build with speed "ok" and use alavanch of steel "after" the singularity ... until then, bull****. But let's go back in time, the time when the roar generated ap . Imagine 3 gwf, focusing on recovery taking turns this daily? It was a "infinity combo " we missed for lack of ambition. We could even dispense dc, leaving a rogue for the boss.
We were supposed to have been the prestige class in pve.
Now is later.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
cw dont have more damage, they have more burst but dps is way lower and unless its some dungeon where u either push/run or have a lot of 1hit mobs(3 health bar) a good gwf should be ahead/tied, but yea cw pve dmg is THE problem of GWF a class that supposed to specialize on control, they even have it in class name SHOULDNT do same damage as class that SUPPOSED to be AoE class. cw would still have a slot in party if they did 1/3rd of their current aoe dmg. leave their single target damage for PvP and nerf their aoe dmg to hell, simple solution, ppl wouldnt take 2 in party since it would ruin their damage, no more permanent singularity so there would be need for somebody to tank(GF) and there would be a demand for AoE dps(GWF)
It is not CW problem, it is dungeon mechanic problem. Too much trash, too many adds on boss, too little brain choice. That refers to CN in the first place! And that is the reason why GWF can't find his place there.
Most of the dungeons my CW can do with one particular loadout. I wish I would have to switch my skills during the run for every specific situation. But i also wish for the run not to be 3 hours! But instead - 45 minutes as it is stated. I want short road to boss - and tough boss fight not because of adds, but because of the boss itself. Currently no boss needs to be tanked, really. Each one of them is easy. But instead, adds are deadly. WHY? I struggle to understand it but fail
Imagine a boss fight where boss changes his behavior all the time. And every class gets his chance to shine in certain moments. I believe that would be the solution to GF/GWF problem.
But not nerfing CWs. Nerf hammer is not the best solution to game balancing.
Where is it? I browsed the five most recent patch notes and failed to see anything about Roar.