Um no your wrong GWF are still completely useless even in the MC boss Fight. I run Legit Karrundax alot. Group, GF, DC, CW, CW, CW. Why? because. malestrom of chaos also stuns Val's casting just like slam. I have tried a dozen times with a dozen different GWF's to perform the slam stun trick. And not a single one could pull it off. GWF just cannot generate enough AP even with 3k recovery to block all of val's portals. While with 3 CW;s only one CW goes maelstrom the others go iceknife and if a malestrom is not ready ranged DPS for the win and val goes down.
If GWF's could tank they would have a use. I know for a fact GWFS damage is on the same level as GF's. GWF's need something to be a valued choice in party whether that be full tank, More Aoe damage than a CW or more control/buff/utility powers. to aid all party members.
Yeah I get it asking for GWFs' to be full tanks. Eventually there will be more tank classes. What happens to GF when Paladin comes along? What happens to TR when Ranger comes and this is just around the corner.
GWFs right now are dead, I feel bad not taking them to my dungeons but I want a group that can beat Dragon legit
I'm on Beholder. My primary GWF is Gral. Hit me up when you want an MC 3/3, and I'll show you what a GWF is supposed to do.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
DeBuffs -
You can feat Not So Fast to grant combat advantage for 3 seconds. This is huge in a team regardless of pvp/pve. Even solo, the increase in damage from the feat coupled with granting combat advantage and high crit severity means you hit hard. Add in student of the sword and you begin to smile. Also, student of the sword is not in the instigator line.
Concerning AP.
The removal of AP generation is the single greatest nerf the GWF has ever encountered.
Concerning DPS.
This heavily depends on which environment and skill rotation is selected. In PVP we can empty an entire rotation and put someone in the dirt. In PVE we can jump in the middle of 10 mobs and put out outstanding damage to the point that we can solo packs of t2 mobs.
Concering PVP
You mentioned CW and DC in pvp. Both classes in the right hands are absolute terrors to face. DC not as much as the CW but again it comes down to which skills are slotted to even have a shot. That bit of advise goes to any class.
Would also like to put forth that the Instigator capstone is mainly for PVP. A bad one at that. Throw one Not So Fast and look at the distance, now add 2 feet and that is the area the Capstone covers. Also useless in a solo setting.
I'm on Beholder. My primary GWF is Gral. Hit me up when you want an MC 3/3, and I'll show you what a GWF is supposed to do.
1 out of 10 GWF's being able to do that fight properly does not save the class or do anything to come close to having players want to group with GWF's. I have seen time and time again GWF's fail at learning to use slam properly, when new CW's learn to use maelstrom really easily.
I have a lv 60 GWF I know what they can do and I see exactly how there stats and damage fail in comparison to a GF, with no utility that a GF does not already have. Other players have level 60 GWFs and see the same thing. The only thing useful about a GWF is WMS. All there other moves are more like lesser versions of GF moves. At least the useful ones anyway. Not counting the useless ones like Mighty leap or Come and get it.
The Devs destroyed the GWFs reputation with there GWF nerf at Open Beta launch, the class has had little to no respect since then. And really it has only gotten worse with the further nerfs. In order to make the class appealing again the devs will have to do a promotional campaign to raise awareness of alot of new and wonderful changes made to the GWF to make the class appealing with a defined role in the group that no other class can fulfill.
If they just gave it the defined role without advertising to mainstream players. Chances are no players will realize the class became useful. And the GWF will still sit in the dog house for party invites. This I think is the same reason why TR's are being taken to MC over GF's. Players are used to TR's being the standard melee spot even though GFs are far more useful in MC than a TR especially as tank.
Face it the class is dead. the only time I see a GWF in a group nowadays is if they are running with guildies.
1 out of 10 GWF's being able to do that fight properly does not save the class or do anything to come close to having players want to group with GWF's. I have seen time and time again GWF's fail at learning to use slam properly, when new CW's learn to use maelstrom really easily.
I have a lv 60 GWF I know what they can do and I see exactly how there stats and damage fail in comparison to a GF, with no utility that a GF does not already have. Other players have level 60 GWFs and see the same thing. The only thing useful about a GWF is WMS. All there other moves are more like lesser versions of GF moves. At least the useful ones anyway. Not counting the useless ones like Mighty leap or Come and get it.
The Devs destroyed the GWFs reputation with there GWF nerf at Open Beta launch, the class has had little to no respect since then. And really it has only gotten worse with the further nerfs. In order to make the class appealing again the devs will have to do a promotional campaign to raise awareness of alot of new and wonderful changes made to the GWF to make the class appealing with a defined role in the group that no other class can fulfill.
If they just gave it the defined role without advertising to mainstream players. Chances are no players will realize the class became useful. And the GWF will still sit in the dog house for party invites. This I think is the same reason why TR's are being taken to MC over GF's. Players are used to TR's being the standard melee spot even though GFs are far more useful in MC than a TR especially as tank.
Face it the class is dead. the only time I see a GWF in a group nowadays is if they are running with guildies.
First, it's not a hard move. Run to Valindra. Hit 1. Valindra is no more. Gotta be within about 10 feet of her. Then attack the dragon with every encounter power you have, fight through the choke, more encounters. You'll have enough AP for the next slam about 10 seconds before Valindra appears.
I think you've stated a couple problems, here. I'm going to put address them individually:
- GWF have an issue with grabbing 'meathead' types. Many of our players don't know how to do much more than run to the biggest enemy around and hit it with the biggest sword around. Teaching them finesse and skill rotation is not going to be easy. So you will definitely see a difference between a good GWF and a bad one. Much like there's a huge gap between good CW's, and CW's that are a complete waste of time.
- GWF's have a bad reputation, mainly because of one simple patch. You, yourself, are pushing that reputation here. Because you don't know any GWF's worth a **** (apparently including yourself in the mix), ALL GWF's are useless in dungeons. Good group leads who know the difference between 'any DC' and a 'healer' are also going to know the difference between a 'boss GWF' and a 'support GWF'. When (not if, but when) CW have their PvE capabilities cut back, especially if another ranged class comes out, your going to see a lot of players complaining about how much they will be broken. If enough people complain, it becomes harder to get into a group. Bitter players, not any change by the developers, have put GWF's in this position. I try very hard with my play and attitude to promote our class, but individuals like yourself seem intent on making it the devs fault.
- To support part of your argument, though, I will agree wholeheartedly that we don't have our own niche in PvE like the other classes do. This won't be such a bad thing when the next few classes make the lineup, because that 'not the best at anything' approach is going to be spread a little further. Expect to see the 'best' classes being steadily reduced over time, too, so that even their considerable advantage now becomes less of one later. But in the meantime, if GWF's could get some AOE threat management for sentinels, or a good improvement on our AOE damage output, it would go a long way to help us along (in PvE).
Finally, you really only focused on PvE. In PvP, we have a great reputation, even without min-max Tene builds.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
I try very hard with my play and attitude to promote our class
Try to swim through Pacific ocean with hands and feet tied instead, it will be easier. Cyan's statement stays. When discussing about the usefulness of the classes, how dare you comparing "tanks", "heals", "hits", "controls" with "Interupt Valindra" ? Useless is useless, And the incoming new class will make the gwf last out of six instead of five.
As for PvP, the alleged gwf reputation, is actually the reputation of two stones. And here again, "stone slot" cannot compare with "tank", "healer" etc.
If you can't find PvE groups willing to take you gear up for PvP. PvP guilds are generally full of top tier players that do some PvE as well, get in one of those and then just ask in guild for people to join you in PvE heh. GWF is probably the cheapest class to gear well for PvP. Not to mention you can stomp on all those people that rejected you for PvE =P
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Try to swim through Pacific ocean with hands and feet tied instead, it will be easier. Cyan's statement stays. When discussing about the usefulness of the classes, how dare you comparing "tanks", "heals", "hits", "controls" with "Interupt Valindra" ? Useless is useless, And the incoming new class will make the gwf last out of six instead of five.
As for PvP, the alleged gwf reputation, is actually the reputation of two stones. And here again, "stone slot" cannot compare with "tank", "healer" etc.
So you tell everyone we're useless and aren't worth squat diddly, and me and my kin will tell everyone that we are worth a **** and constantly show we are over and over again. Which one of us is right? Is there a right and a wrong hereabouts?
I do know this. I play the class, and play it well. I can run all T2 dungeons without dying or requiring a DC on the team. I feel this is proof the class is just fine. I know many other GWF's who have similar success. We aren't required in any dungeon, but that's more the issue with the dungeons and CW's than with us. We can still fill several roles just fine.
What are your proofs that we're broken? As broken, wouldn't that mean that nobody would be able to do it well?
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
gwf do need correct gear and skill to play well and gwf and tr ar the **** magnets of this game, so far ive seen like 1 gwf that can do similar dmg to mine and often i double dmg of other gwf in party so its no wonder many ppl consider gwf bad, but get a good gwf and u see what gwf can do
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zardoz007Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 2Arc User
So you tell everyone we're useless and aren't worth squat diddly, and me and my kin will tell everyone that we are worth a **** and constantly show we are over and over again. Which one of us is right? Is there a right and a wrong hereabouts?
I do know this. I play the class, and play it well. I can run all T2 dungeons without dying or requiring a DC on the team. I feel this is proof the class is just fine. I know many other GWF's who have similar success. We aren't required in any dungeon, but that's more the issue with the dungeons and CW's than with us. We can still fill several roles just fine.
What are your proofs that we're broken? As broken, wouldn't that mean that nobody would be able to do it well?
I have to point this out to you Lobo.
You are a good GWF, so was I.
You speak passionately about the GWF class and it's strength, and promote it the best you can. And prove it time and time again that a GWF can hold it's own in groups. So did I.
I have read posts by many players like myself and like you you who have argued in favor of the GWF and then like me just disappeared. Good example. Have you see this threads creator around anywhere? Anywhere at all? No because we can only fight the good fight for so long before we give up and someone else takes up the mantle. Who knows how long you will continue fighting. But unless the devs makes a major change to the class. I expect you to give up and move on. Or you may learn what happeend to me. Guild broke and I could no longer get any group. It was a pain trying to get into new guilds because they already had boss GWF's and there are only so few GWF spots to go around in a guild. So I gave up and threw in the towel. IF I logged back in to play GWF think I'll get a group? Most of the players I used to play with have quit and moved to FF14.
GWF is an inevitable sad end, I've seen that you agree yourself that GWF have no role in PvE. We all know this. We all have had our own ideas on how this could change. But these posts about improving the GWFs role in PvE have been around since open Beta ended and since open beta started. The Devs have tried twice to improve the GWF. Once with a buff giving Unstoppable temp HP, and once with a giant nerf to slam and AP generation to replace with damage mitigation no one cared about.
I just dont see how anyone can keep up the good fight for long when it's obvious the devs do not know what they are doing with the class and only make change that hurts it further.
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pandapaulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 424Bounty Hunter
edited October 2013
I too have spent 100s of hours trying to get the best out of my GWF... I have respec maybe 30 times now.. Tried almost all enchants.. Tried stacking all sorts of combos and rotations.. And sure I do ok.. Well for a GWF I do very well.. But the devs have just damaged the class too much...
We have a bunch of encounters That all pretty much do similar things.. Pull or push with either small damage buff or DR or small debuffs
Roar, daring shout, battle fury, come and get it... There isn't alot that separates these encounters they are all very similar..and all aren't particularly good anymore.. So what can we use instead?? We are ment to be a dps aoe class.. But the reality is we seriously lack dps aeo skills.. Both encounters and dailies.. It takes so dam long to generate AP.. And then we don't have any decent aoe dailies.. Most GWfs I see now use crescendo.. Well that's single target and already shows how bad the rest are.. GWF should be the king of aoe dps without question and by a long way given they don't add anything else.. Again that isn't the case at all.
What needs to do done
Increase target cap for all skills a minimum of 8-10
Increase dps on all dailies
Increase increase dps to at wills
Increase party buffs when partying a GWF
Increase threat by alot
Add more aoe dps encounter powers at the moment all we have is IBS and not so fast that are decent
I too have spent 100s of hours trying to get the best out of my GWF... I have respec maybe 30 times now.. Tried almost all enchants.. Tried stacking all sorts of combos and rotations.. And sure I do ok.. Well for a GWF I do very well.. But the devs have just damaged the class too much...
We have a bunch of encounters That all pretty much do similar things.. Pull or push with either small damage buff or DR or small debuffs
Roar, daring shout, battle fury, come and get it... There isn't alot that separates these encounters they are all very similar..and all aren't particularly good anymore.. So what can we use instead?? We are ment to be a dps aoe class.. But the reality is we seriously lack dps aeo skills.. Both encounters and dailies.. It takes so dam long to generate AP.. And then we don't have any decent aoe dailies.. Most GWfs I see now use crescendo.. Well that's single target and already shows how bad the rest are.. GWF should be the king of aoe dps without question and by a long way given they don't add anything else.. Again that isn't the case at all.
What needs to do done
Increase target cap for all skills a minimum of 8-10
Increase dps on all dailies
Increase increase dps to at wills
Increase party buffs when partying a GWF
Increase threat by alot
Add more aoe dps encounter powers at the moment all we have is IBS and not so fast that are decent
Hire a new GWF dev.. Current one is terrible
I would gladly trade most of our CC capabilities if we could focus as a damage/tank class. Right now we hold too many cards. Adding AOE damage could push us into being considerably better than any other class. But the AOE buff needs to be added.
Keep the CC capabilities to about three or four, with the really good ones like rescendo/flourish being paragon driven and being replaced by more AOE driven abilities with the next paragon path.
I don't know. What would you replace those abilities with? You have buff, debuff, heal other, heal self, control, single-target damage, AOE damage, defend, and generate threat. Right now, we have a lot of abilities that control and single-target damage, several that AOE damage poorly, a few good heal self, a defend or two, and maybe you can count one generate threat.
How do you buff the class in such a significant, and necessary, fashion, without tipping the advantage too much in our favor?
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
I would gladly trade most of our CC capabilities if we could focus as a damage/tank class. Right now we hold too many cards. Adding AOE damage could push us into being considerably better than any other class. But the AOE buff needs to be added.
Keep the CC capabilities to about three or four, with the really good ones like rescendo/flourish being paragon driven and being replaced by more AOE driven abilities with the next paragon path.
I don't know. What would you replace those abilities with? You have buff, debuff, heal other, heal self, control, single-target damage, AOE damage, defend, and generate threat. Right now, we have a lot of abilities that control and single-target damage, several that AOE damage poorly, a few good heal self, a defend or two, and maybe you can count one generate threat.
How do you buff the class in such a significant, and necessary, fashion, without tipping the advantage too much in our favor?
I'm sorry I can't agree with what you are saying.. You say GWF holds too many cards.. In fact the problem is they don't hold any.. Sure they can do abit of this and abit of that.. But they can't do anything efficiently when you compare it to another class.. And you must compare it as you are in constant competition to be viable.. And GWF isn't..
I guarantee if they buffed GWF aoe dps by 100% that it probably wouldn't even help most GWfs.. The class lacks so much more than just damage..
Give any party the option of a highly skilled/geared GWF or a similar CW.. 99% will always chose the CW.. They bring everything that a GWF brings plus a truck load more...
Have you see this threads creator around anywhere? Anywhere at all? No because we can only fight the good fight for so long before we give up and someone else takes up the mantle.
What needs to do done
Increase target cap for all skills a minimum of 8-10
Increase dps on all dailies
Increase increase dps to at wills
Increase party buffs when partying a GWF
Increase threat by alot
Some combination of these would be nice honestly... Though, too many of them and I think we'd be absurdly powerful. I'd like to see more AoE DPS/Threat, but most of all more buffs like Slam (allows allies to gain DR). Have the Encounter Power: Come and Get It(!) buff damage for the entire party for 3 seconds, and/or other cool abilities to add more to team play.
fixing GWF in current, pathetic addfest state of game is easy - increase target cap to 10, wont do anything for pvp but would allow destroyer to show The Dev Favorite Class how to do dmg, single target dmg is good enough, but they would need to increase TR single target dmg since they are useless as it is(xcept for crit buff and smoke). could also rework weapon master and wicked strike, cause wicked feels much better than weapon master as an aoe ability, but buffs on weapon master are too good and wicked strike dmg is too low to use as main attack, i remember back in alpha wicked was the main attack, or at least the first u got
also they would need to increase Sentinel threat with higher cap and more threat they would make decent tanks while gf could fill more team buff oriented tank role.
instigator could be either party buff oriented or single target(though that would fk up tr big time) but i dont care about it since many classes have 2 useful and one useless path
or they could just nerf cw dmg and make them chose cc vs dmg, ahh would like the tears of cw from that
to fix the game they would need to remake their uber lazy and boring boss encounter design, and stop caring about ppl who are too bad for this game and ramp up difficulty so offtanks are needed.
i do agree 2 of our 3 trees are useless. I;ve respected Destroyer rolling with battle fury / roar / IBS and with 1k lifesteal. It tanks better then sentinel used to and it has alot of dmg due to vigilant/avatar combo. So as a tank i find my spot once again in what is left of my guild.
Instigator is the pvp spec. Sent is a troll spec in pvp and a quasi tank in pve. Destroyer is decent for damage in either environment but not as specialized as the other two specs in regards to pvp.
What sucks is that the actual 'combat' part of this game is great.
But the other things, like endgame, have stopped me heavily investing in this game. GWF was my first char, and ive always enjoyed playing 'berserkers' all the way back to eq1/eq2. Being burned out from 7years of hc raiding in other games(i was always the main tank), i came to nwn without expectations. I was pleasantly suprised.
But all the other HAMSTER, stuff mostly covered in 1000s of posts on this forum, has stopped me joining a guild and expanding past the 'casual gamer' style.
That said, i am just logging in my 5 60's to invoke. Stopped doing dailys, its hit and miss whether group is purple or green nowadays since bop.
First, it's not a hard move. Run to Valindra. Hit 1. Valindra is no more. Gotta be within about 10 feet of her. Then attack the dragon with every encounter power you have, fight through the choke, more encounters. You'll have enough AP for the next slam about 10 seconds before Valindra appears.
I think you've stated a couple problems, here. I'm going to put address them individually:
- GWF have an issue with grabbing 'meathead' types. Many of our players don't know how to do much more than run to the biggest enemy around and hit it with the biggest sword around. Teaching them finesse and skill rotation is not going to be easy. So you will definitely see a difference between a good GWF and a bad one. Much like there's a huge gap between good CW's, and CW's that are a complete waste of time.
- GWF's have a bad reputation, mainly because of one simple patch. You, yourself, are pushing that reputation here. Because you don't know any GWF's worth a **** (apparently including yourself in the mix), ALL GWF's are useless in dungeons. Good group leads who know the difference between 'any DC' and a 'healer' are also going to know the difference between a 'boss GWF' and a 'support GWF'. When (not if, but when) CW have their PvE capabilities cut back, especially if another ranged class comes out, your going to see a lot of players complaining about how much they will be broken. If enough people complain, it becomes harder to get into a group. Bitter players, not any change by the developers, have put GWF's in this position. I try very hard with my play and attitude to promote our class, but individuals like yourself seem intent on making it the devs fault.
- To support part of your argument, though, I will agree wholeheartedly that we don't have our own niche in PvE like the other classes do. This won't be such a bad thing when the next few classes make the lineup, because that 'not the best at anything' approach is going to be spread a little further. Expect to see the 'best' classes being steadily reduced over time, too, so that even their considerable advantage now becomes less of one later. But in the meantime, if GWF's could get some AOE threat management for sentinels, or a good improvement on our AOE damage output, it would go a long way to help us along (in PvE).
Finally, you really only focused on PvE. In PvP, we have a great reputation, even without min-max Tene builds.
first on all you can't blame me for the GWF bad reputation. That was around long before I started playing. And I thought hey I'd give them a chance, And I gave it to them, kept giveing it to them and kept seeing time and time again GWF fail at the simplest tasks taht I see other classes do so well. SO I played one and really started to understand why that is. How many other classes do you play. Have you looked at how poor a GWF's ability are compared to any other class? How dismal there single target DPS is compared to a TR. How crappy there encounter and daily aoe damage is compared to a DC. how insignificant a tank they are compared to A GF, DC and TR.
So they can slam val. No one cares. All you need is a CW to use maelstrom which is much easier since a CW gets 4 times the AP as a GWF. Also if it was so important for fighters to Interrupt Val then Tactician specced GF's could do it with an encounter. I'm a GF and that just maybe why I don't party with GWF. Most groups only have room for one of the fighter class. And right now it's the GF that is winning out as more GF's have gone and learned proper damage spec we are showing we can DPS as well as GWF's and bring in respectable Control and tanking.
Yes I speak out against the GWF but I do this so the devs will see a Non-GWF's perspective on why the class needs to be buffed. Instead of GWF players going buff me,buff me. buff me. Like you see members of all classes doing.
Maybe if I keep doing this they will listen, and I will not require the most top notched GWF's this game has to show me that they can bring something to the group. Even if that something is okay damage and survivability. And being a rezzer, can't forget that. This is what GWF's excel at. Sprinting and rezzing fallen comrades. It's Really hard for a GF to do that when he is tanking half the room.
And being a rezzer, can't forget that. This is what GWF's excel at. Sprinting and rezzing fallen comrades.
This is where my gwf usually dies. Trying to revive a fallen guy. What killed him, then kills me. Reviving is Melee, you have to enter the red circle where the guy is. And more often the intersection of red circles. And poof, there goes the gwf.
What the gwf is very good at right now is waiting at the campfire behind the the invisible wall while the other four classes are taking care of the boss.
Instigator is the pvp spec. Sent is a troll spec in pvp and a quasi tank in pve. Destroyer is decent for damage in either environment but not as specialized as the other two specs in regards to pvp.
Lol Sent is the ONLY spec that brings something to the table that other classes can't. In PvE a good GWF can act as a tank otherwise a CW is better, in PvP a GWF has to be a tank, or else he dies in 3 seconds.
I would be happy to do an instance with you some time (yay shard merge to show you that CW in the right spec can put out just as much damage, but with 10x the control, of GWF. Leeroy's build is quite viable as he tanks very well but also does some good damage, but just a straight DPS we already have that role covered sadly.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Cut the drama and maybe the devs will listen. Stop being a child crying out loud. Give valid statements and support them with valid arguments. Only then, you will be taken in consideration.
Just to clarify: ^This has nothing to do with class balance, just the approach on balance.
If you go look at my name and my threads posted. I asked for Avatar Or War's 4set bonus to be changed, I gave a suggestion and valid arguments to why that should happen. Guess what, the devs responded. Avatar Of War's 4 set now has 10 seconds of uptime. Please do the same for other parts of the class and make my life and your life better.
Cut the drama and maybe the devs will listen. Stop being a child crying out loud. Give valid statements and support them with valid arguments. Only then, you will be taken in consideration.
Just to clarify: ^This has nothing to do with class balance, just the approach on balance.
If you go look at my name and my threads posted. I asked for Avatar Or War's 4set bonus to be changed, I gave a suggestion and valid arguments to why that should happen. Guess what, the devs responded. Avatar Of War's 4 set now has 10 seconds of uptime. Please do the same for other parts of the class and make my life and your life better.
Guess what, the devs responded. Avatar Of War's 4 set now has 10 seconds of uptime. Please do the same for other parts of the class and make my life and your life better.
Guess what? The other sets (and the rest of the class) are still ****.
Lol Sent is the ONLY spec that brings something to the table that other classes can't. In PvE a good GWF can act as a tank otherwise a CW is better, in PvP a GWF has to be a tank, or else he dies in 3 seconds.
I would be happy to do an instance with you some time (yay shard merge to show you that CW in the right spec can put out just as much damage, but with 10x the control, of GWF. Leeroy's build is quite viable as he tanks very well but also does some good damage, but just a straight DPS we already have that role covered sadly.
I do just fine in PVE and PVP as an Instigator.
Before the AP nerf I was holding down 1st in kills and 1st in DPS in regards to PVE. Now i just hold first in kills.
In PVP I am a terror. I can rotate kill almost anyone.
The only problems I have are the TR/1 shot/2 shot/geared to the teeth/tene owners. Also the full troll sent/tene/lifedrinker build.
Comments
I'm on Beholder. My primary GWF is Gral. Hit me up when you want an MC 3/3, and I'll show you what a GWF is supposed to do.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Good analysis.
Adding to it.
DeBuffs -
You can feat Not So Fast to grant combat advantage for 3 seconds. This is huge in a team regardless of pvp/pve. Even solo, the increase in damage from the feat coupled with granting combat advantage and high crit severity means you hit hard. Add in student of the sword and you begin to smile. Also, student of the sword is not in the instigator line.
Concerning AP.
The removal of AP generation is the single greatest nerf the GWF has ever encountered.
Concerning DPS.
This heavily depends on which environment and skill rotation is selected. In PVP we can empty an entire rotation and put someone in the dirt. In PVE we can jump in the middle of 10 mobs and put out outstanding damage to the point that we can solo packs of t2 mobs.
Concering PVP
You mentioned CW and DC in pvp. Both classes in the right hands are absolute terrors to face. DC not as much as the CW but again it comes down to which skills are slotted to even have a shot. That bit of advise goes to any class.
Would also like to put forth that the Instigator capstone is mainly for PVP. A bad one at that. Throw one Not So Fast and look at the distance, now add 2 feet and that is the area the Capstone covers. Also useless in a solo setting.
1 out of 10 GWF's being able to do that fight properly does not save the class or do anything to come close to having players want to group with GWF's. I have seen time and time again GWF's fail at learning to use slam properly, when new CW's learn to use maelstrom really easily.
I have a lv 60 GWF I know what they can do and I see exactly how there stats and damage fail in comparison to a GF, with no utility that a GF does not already have. Other players have level 60 GWFs and see the same thing. The only thing useful about a GWF is WMS. All there other moves are more like lesser versions of GF moves. At least the useful ones anyway. Not counting the useless ones like Mighty leap or Come and get it.
The Devs destroyed the GWFs reputation with there GWF nerf at Open Beta launch, the class has had little to no respect since then. And really it has only gotten worse with the further nerfs. In order to make the class appealing again the devs will have to do a promotional campaign to raise awareness of alot of new and wonderful changes made to the GWF to make the class appealing with a defined role in the group that no other class can fulfill.
If they just gave it the defined role without advertising to mainstream players. Chances are no players will realize the class became useful. And the GWF will still sit in the dog house for party invites. This I think is the same reason why TR's are being taken to MC over GF's. Players are used to TR's being the standard melee spot even though GFs are far more useful in MC than a TR especially as tank.
Face it the class is dead. the only time I see a GWF in a group nowadays is if they are running with guildies.
First, it's not a hard move. Run to Valindra. Hit 1. Valindra is no more. Gotta be within about 10 feet of her. Then attack the dragon with every encounter power you have, fight through the choke, more encounters. You'll have enough AP for the next slam about 10 seconds before Valindra appears.
I think you've stated a couple problems, here. I'm going to put address them individually:
- GWF have an issue with grabbing 'meathead' types. Many of our players don't know how to do much more than run to the biggest enemy around and hit it with the biggest sword around. Teaching them finesse and skill rotation is not going to be easy. So you will definitely see a difference between a good GWF and a bad one. Much like there's a huge gap between good CW's, and CW's that are a complete waste of time.
- GWF's have a bad reputation, mainly because of one simple patch. You, yourself, are pushing that reputation here. Because you don't know any GWF's worth a **** (apparently including yourself in the mix), ALL GWF's are useless in dungeons. Good group leads who know the difference between 'any DC' and a 'healer' are also going to know the difference between a 'boss GWF' and a 'support GWF'. When (not if, but when) CW have their PvE capabilities cut back, especially if another ranged class comes out, your going to see a lot of players complaining about how much they will be broken. If enough people complain, it becomes harder to get into a group. Bitter players, not any change by the developers, have put GWF's in this position. I try very hard with my play and attitude to promote our class, but individuals like yourself seem intent on making it the devs fault.
- To support part of your argument, though, I will agree wholeheartedly that we don't have our own niche in PvE like the other classes do. This won't be such a bad thing when the next few classes make the lineup, because that 'not the best at anything' approach is going to be spread a little further. Expect to see the 'best' classes being steadily reduced over time, too, so that even their considerable advantage now becomes less of one later. But in the meantime, if GWF's could get some AOE threat management for sentinels, or a good improvement on our AOE damage output, it would go a long way to help us along (in PvE).
Finally, you really only focused on PvE. In PvP, we have a great reputation, even without min-max Tene builds.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Try to swim through Pacific ocean with hands and feet tied instead, it will be easier. Cyan's statement stays. When discussing about the usefulness of the classes, how dare you comparing "tanks", "heals", "hits", "controls" with "Interupt Valindra" ? Useless is useless, And the incoming new class will make the gwf last out of six instead of five.
As for PvP, the alleged gwf reputation, is actually the reputation of two stones. And here again, "stone slot" cannot compare with "tank", "healer" etc.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
So you tell everyone we're useless and aren't worth squat diddly, and me and my kin will tell everyone that we are worth a **** and constantly show we are over and over again. Which one of us is right? Is there a right and a wrong hereabouts?
I do know this. I play the class, and play it well. I can run all T2 dungeons without dying or requiring a DC on the team. I feel this is proof the class is just fine. I know many other GWF's who have similar success. We aren't required in any dungeon, but that's more the issue with the dungeons and CW's than with us. We can still fill several roles just fine.
What are your proofs that we're broken? As broken, wouldn't that mean that nobody would be able to do it well?
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
I'll keep having fun, and so will you, without them.
I have to point this out to you Lobo.
You are a good GWF, so was I.
You speak passionately about the GWF class and it's strength, and promote it the best you can. And prove it time and time again that a GWF can hold it's own in groups. So did I.
I have read posts by many players like myself and like you you who have argued in favor of the GWF and then like me just disappeared. Good example. Have you see this threads creator around anywhere? Anywhere at all? No because we can only fight the good fight for so long before we give up and someone else takes up the mantle. Who knows how long you will continue fighting. But unless the devs makes a major change to the class. I expect you to give up and move on. Or you may learn what happeend to me. Guild broke and I could no longer get any group. It was a pain trying to get into new guilds because they already had boss GWF's and there are only so few GWF spots to go around in a guild. So I gave up and threw in the towel. IF I logged back in to play GWF think I'll get a group? Most of the players I used to play with have quit and moved to FF14.
GWF is an inevitable sad end, I've seen that you agree yourself that GWF have no role in PvE. We all know this. We all have had our own ideas on how this could change. But these posts about improving the GWFs role in PvE have been around since open Beta ended and since open beta started. The Devs have tried twice to improve the GWF. Once with a buff giving Unstoppable temp HP, and once with a giant nerf to slam and AP generation to replace with damage mitigation no one cared about.
I just dont see how anyone can keep up the good fight for long when it's obvious the devs do not know what they are doing with the class and only make change that hurts it further.
We have a bunch of encounters That all pretty much do similar things.. Pull or push with either small damage buff or DR or small debuffs
Roar, daring shout, battle fury, come and get it... There isn't alot that separates these encounters they are all very similar..and all aren't particularly good anymore.. So what can we use instead?? We are ment to be a dps aoe class.. But the reality is we seriously lack dps aeo skills.. Both encounters and dailies.. It takes so dam long to generate AP.. And then we don't have any decent aoe dailies.. Most GWfs I see now use crescendo.. Well that's single target and already shows how bad the rest are.. GWF should be the king of aoe dps without question and by a long way given they don't add anything else.. Again that isn't the case at all.
What needs to do done
Increase target cap for all skills a minimum of 8-10
Increase dps on all dailies
Increase increase dps to at wills
Increase party buffs when partying a GWF
Increase threat by alot
Add more aoe dps encounter powers at the moment all we have is IBS and not so fast that are decent
Hire a new GWF dev.. Current one is terrible
I would gladly trade most of our CC capabilities if we could focus as a damage/tank class. Right now we hold too many cards. Adding AOE damage could push us into being considerably better than any other class. But the AOE buff needs to be added.
Keep the CC capabilities to about three or four, with the really good ones like rescendo/flourish being paragon driven and being replaced by more AOE driven abilities with the next paragon path.
I don't know. What would you replace those abilities with? You have buff, debuff, heal other, heal self, control, single-target damage, AOE damage, defend, and generate threat. Right now, we have a lot of abilities that control and single-target damage, several that AOE damage poorly, a few good heal self, a defend or two, and maybe you can count one generate threat.
How do you buff the class in such a significant, and necessary, fashion, without tipping the advantage too much in our favor?
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
I'm sorry I can't agree with what you are saying.. You say GWF holds too many cards.. In fact the problem is they don't hold any.. Sure they can do abit of this and abit of that.. But they can't do anything efficiently when you compare it to another class.. And you must compare it as you are in constant competition to be viable.. And GWF isn't..
I guarantee if they buffed GWF aoe dps by 100% that it probably wouldn't even help most GWfs.. The class lacks so much more than just damage..
Give any party the option of a highly skilled/geared GWF or a similar CW.. 99% will always chose the CW.. They bring everything that a GWF brings plus a truck load more...
Some combination of these would be nice honestly... Though, too many of them and I think we'd be absurdly powerful. I'd like to see more AoE DPS/Threat, but most of all more buffs like Slam (allows allies to gain DR). Have the Encounter Power: Come and Get It(!) buff damage for the entire party for 3 seconds, and/or other cool abilities to add more to team play.
I sure wouldn't mind that.:D
Increasing at-will damage would be a start.
also they would need to increase Sentinel threat with higher cap and more threat they would make decent tanks while gf could fill more team buff oriented tank role.
instigator could be either party buff oriented or single target(though that would fk up tr big time) but i dont care about it since many classes have 2 useful and one useless path
or they could just nerf cw dmg and make them chose cc vs dmg, ahh would like the tears of cw from that
to fix the game they would need to remake their uber lazy and boring boss encounter design, and stop caring about ppl who are too bad for this game and ramp up difficulty so offtanks are needed.
But the other things, like endgame, have stopped me heavily investing in this game. GWF was my first char, and ive always enjoyed playing 'berserkers' all the way back to eq1/eq2. Being burned out from 7years of hc raiding in other games(i was always the main tank), i came to nwn without expectations. I was pleasantly suprised.
But all the other HAMSTER, stuff mostly covered in 1000s of posts on this forum, has stopped me joining a guild and expanding past the 'casual gamer' style.
That said, i am just logging in my 5 60's to invoke. Stopped doing dailys, its hit and miss whether group is purple or green nowadays since bop.
first on all you can't blame me for the GWF bad reputation. That was around long before I started playing. And I thought hey I'd give them a chance, And I gave it to them, kept giveing it to them and kept seeing time and time again GWF fail at the simplest tasks taht I see other classes do so well. SO I played one and really started to understand why that is. How many other classes do you play. Have you looked at how poor a GWF's ability are compared to any other class? How dismal there single target DPS is compared to a TR. How crappy there encounter and daily aoe damage is compared to a DC. how insignificant a tank they are compared to A GF, DC and TR.
So they can slam val. No one cares. All you need is a CW to use maelstrom which is much easier since a CW gets 4 times the AP as a GWF. Also if it was so important for fighters to Interrupt Val then Tactician specced GF's could do it with an encounter. I'm a GF and that just maybe why I don't party with GWF. Most groups only have room for one of the fighter class. And right now it's the GF that is winning out as more GF's have gone and learned proper damage spec we are showing we can DPS as well as GWF's and bring in respectable Control and tanking.
Yes I speak out against the GWF but I do this so the devs will see a Non-GWF's perspective on why the class needs to be buffed. Instead of GWF players going buff me,buff me. buff me. Like you see members of all classes doing.
Maybe if I keep doing this they will listen, and I will not require the most top notched GWF's this game has to show me that they can bring something to the group. Even if that something is okay damage and survivability. And being a rezzer, can't forget that. This is what GWF's excel at. Sprinting and rezzing fallen comrades. It's Really hard for a GF to do that when he is tanking half the room.
This is where my gwf usually dies. Trying to revive a fallen guy. What killed him, then kills me. Reviving is Melee, you have to enter the red circle where the guy is. And more often the intersection of red circles. And poof, there goes the gwf.
What the gwf is very good at right now is waiting at the campfire behind the the invisible wall while the other four classes are taking care of the boss.
Lol Sent is the ONLY spec that brings something to the table that other classes can't. In PvE a good GWF can act as a tank otherwise a CW is better, in PvP a GWF has to be a tank, or else he dies in 3 seconds.
I would be happy to do an instance with you some time (yay shard merge
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Just to clarify: ^This has nothing to do with class balance, just the approach on balance.
If you go look at my name and my threads posted. I asked for Avatar Or War's 4set bonus to be changed, I gave a suggestion and valid arguments to why that should happen. Guess what, the devs responded. Avatar Of War's 4 set now has 10 seconds of uptime. Please do the same for other parts of the class and make my life and your life better.
15 ft radius. That is the distance of restoring strike.
So someone needs to be getting hit that is within 15 ft of me. Hello? If they are that close then I am getting hit as well.
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Guess what? The other sets (and the rest of the class) are still ****.
Read the second part of your quote.
I do just fine in PVE and PVP as an Instigator.
Before the AP nerf I was holding down 1st in kills and 1st in DPS in regards to PVE. Now i just hold first in kills.
In PVP I am a terror. I can rotate kill almost anyone.
The only problems I have are the TR/1 shot/2 shot/geared to the teeth/tene owners. Also the full troll sent/tene/lifedrinker build.