Icy terrain just doesn't provide enough "right now" control for me. Sudden storm is amazing after a round of chilling cloud and a steal time. All those dazed targets, debugged to hell (you I'd use CoI as they were coming in right?), all lined up for an arsewhoopin.
SotEA is so awesome in MC. The damage is great, and the prone is great for interrupting mobs. I don't have SotEA feated but I'm thinking of respeccing to do it.
Given the current state of the game (still at work so havent seen patch changes), I don't see any reason to do anything other than use EF on tab for Trash pulls, if you have HV set.
Given the current state of the game (still at work so havent seen patch changes), I don't see any reason to do anything other than use EF on tab for Trash pulls, if you have HV set.
To spend 31 points in feats, and then use an Encounter on Mastery that doesn't take advantage of ANY of them, provides virtually no dps and basically a single target CC, all this to get some extra AP, to me is a waste. You do your job right, with high AoE dps, you are basically creating an indirect singularity. What do you think happens when you throw a Tabbed CoI, Steal Time, Sudden Storm on a group of mobs? Do they disperse all running in different direction or do they funnel in all rushing towards you in a tight cone? massive AoE dps, couple with AoE freeze/stuns, IMO, is the BEST CC a CW can bring to the table.
Hec I hardly slot Singularity these days. Ran CN last night, after almost 10 days of nothing but MC/Dailies, and it was SO weird slotting Shield again for punting. But I guess that's what makes CWs fun, is that we still have largest pool of usable encounters out of all the classes.
9) Your own party members grasp at anything they can get their hands on as you unleash Hurricane >Oppressive Force<, more than doubling the energy emanating from this demonic High Vizier set. (7x stacks)
EDIT: EF on TB = more above which is more damage than anything else currently. Keep HV stacks up and keep using OF. Your group will thank you.
To spend 31 points in feats, and then use an Encounter on Mastery that doesn't take advantage of ANY of them, provides virtually no dps and basically a single target CC, all this to get some extra AP, to me is a waste. You do your job right, with high AoE dps, you are basically creating an indirect singularity. What do you think happens when you throw a Tabbed CoI, Steal Time, Sudden Storm on a group of mobs? Do they disperse all running in different direction or do they funnel in all rushing towards you in a tight cone? massive AoE dps, couple with AoE freeze/stuns, IMO, is the BEST CC a CW can bring to the table.
Hec I hardly slot Singularity these days. Ran CN last night, after almost 10 days of nothing but MC/Dailies, and it was SO weird slotting Shield again for punting. But I guess that's what makes CWs fun, is that we still have largest pool of usable encounters out of all the classes.
Basically this whole post. I thought I would miss the old way, but I find the shield nerf incredibly liberating. I ran this spec before the nerf, but generally slotted EF/shield/Steal Time/CoI for AP so I could AS like everyone expected me to. Now that people know it doesn't work the same and I had to change the spells I am using, I'm free to go for pure DPS with a healthy side of control. Now I've got wizards in my guild who've been renegade since day one asking about the spec.
EDIT: EF on TB = more above which is more damage than anything else currently. Keep HV stacks up and keep using OF. Your group will thank you.
You can keep HV stacks up without EF on tab. Your group will thank you more for putting CoI on tab and debuffing everything for them on top of your HV debuff.
Question, I thought you were considering Shard of the Endless Avalanche Copti? I can either max Sudden Storm or Shard with my current build (to test out...I will do a full respec soon) which is better overall?
Edit - Also, is the guide on the first page still up to date? I see it says August 25th. Just curious before I buy a respec token. Sudden Storm is pretty **** sweet. Trying it out now. The only concern I have is survivability in the high end T2 dungeons. With all this damage I'm sure aggro is off the charts, clerics must hate you, lol.
Question, I thought you were considering Shard of the Endless Avalanche Copti? I can either max Sudden Storm or Shard with my current build (to test out...I will do a full respec soon) which is better overall?
Edit - Also, is the guide on the first page still up to date? I see it says August 25th. Just curious before I buy a respec token. Sudden Storm is pretty **** sweet. Trying it out.
It's actually not a Shard vs Sudden Storm. It's more of Shard vs. Icy Terrain. I currently like having two encounters constantly stacking chills. I guess seeing mobs constantly being frozen gives me a sense of purpose. I have no doubt that Shard will increase dps. I think each should choose this one on their own.
EDIT: EF on TB = more above which is more damage than anything else currently. Keep HV stacks up and keep using OF. Your group will thank you.
I am not sure I agree. The damage from CoI, plus the added aoe 15% debuff, plus the stacks of chill which not only lead to faster freezes but constantly boosts damage with this spec, not to mention still a very good AP generator (up to 30%), is better than trying to generate a daily a little faster. And then what do you do when you're down to 1-3mobs? EF wont generate that much AP.
Patch Notes: NW.5.20130828.4
General: Corrected issues with some powers not being able to properly score critical strikes such as: Storm Pillar, Shard of the Eternal Avalanche and Flamestrike.
Control Wizard: Chill class feature: Chill may now properly stack on all Crowd Control immune bosses though it does not slow or freeze them.
Hey, Copticone, I meant to ask:
From what I've seen on the calc site, you removed points in Elemental Empowerment to put them in Tempest Magic.
I get the reason Tempest Magic could be useful (especially if you're not a Tiefling). I get that Elemental Empowerment no longer functions on the third strike of Chilling Cloud. But Elemental Empowerment still works with all the other Encounter powers.
What I don't get is why you'd pick Malevolent Surge over Elemental Empowerment, especially in a dungeon environment where trash mobs don't die quite as easily as in PvE content (and honestly, with the High Vizier set - while I do notice the difference Malevolent Surge does - I know I don't need it to kill the redcaps in the adventure zone). The Damage over Time on mobs with tougher dungeon mobs seems ideal.
Hey, Copticone, I meant to ask:
From what I've seen on the calc site, you removed points in Elemental Empowerment to put them in Tempest Magic.
I get the reason Tempest Magic could be useful (especially if you're not a Tiefling). I get that Elemental Empowerment no longer functions on the third strike of Chilling Cloud. But Elemental Empowerment still works with all the other Encounter powers.
What I don't get is why you'd pick Malevolent Surge over Elemental Empowerment, especially in a dungeon environment where trash mobs don't die quite as easily as in PvE content (and honestly, with the High Vizier set - while I do notice the difference Malevolent Surge does - I know I don't need it to kill the redcaps in the adventure zone). The Damage over Time on mobs with tougher dungeon mobs seems ideal.
The reason why I had Elemental Empowerment before because originally the setup was CoI, Icy Terrain, Steal Time, and Shield. You had two Encounters to proc the bleed, and 2 encounters to apply the debuff. To me the bleed was not that big of a deal, and it was more about the debuff. Now that Shield is hardly ever on my bar, it made less sense to take it.
It is really all about what you personally are often slotting. If you slot Encounters that will make good use of the feat, go ahead and take it. With regards to Malevolent Surge, I constantly see the buff on my screen. I guess it has to do with the group you are running with. If you run with a group that chain pulls groups, you will see the benefit of it more than with a group that tries to pull the least amount of trash at a time.
I am actually very happy that people are making good cases for shifting things around with this spec. I never meant for people to blindly follow everything that I do to the letter. I think the more we experiment with the class, and of course the more Cryptic keep changing things, the more we realize that even within the Thauma tree there are still equally viable options.
short question. what is this build for ? controll or high dps ?
iam realy new to the mage now and i want :
high DPS .. realy high ..^^
and being able to "controll" stuff on the other side ....
i was reading a lot of postings here, and almost all other guides too, and i have to admit, i have atm no clue what u are talking about at all ^^ atm ......
i was in almost every T2 ini already ....and i see this :
high AOE dps is needed
being able to kick off adds is needed ....
and on a boss.. well more than just high dps ...
wo , what would be a guide for me where i can build my character up on ?
i wanna give your guide a go, but iam not 100 % sure atm ....cuz when i check your feats iam asking myself why he dont have 3/3 points in wizards wrath, when in almost every ini is so much trash adds for aoe ?
example :
this is yours : http://nwcalc.com/cw?b=m1b:4yqm4:b8i4,13n1i50:6u000:bz0u1:b0000&h=0
and isent the 2nd posting ( the one with the pic ) providing more dps ?
dont get me wrong plz, iam just a bit confused cuz there are a lot of guides out for a CW, where i belive they are not even for a CW ...... ( on some guides i just start to pray , and hope the OP will get some kind of brain , and this dosent count only for CW guides ^^ )
so would be nice if i can get some infos ^^advise plz
short question. what is this build for ? controll or high dps ?
iam realy new to the mage now and i want :
high DPS .. realy high ..^^
and being able to "controll" stuff on the other side ....
i was reading a lot of postings here, and almost all other guides too, and i have to admit, i have atm no clue what u are talking about at all ^^ atm ......
i was in almost every T2 ini already ....and i see this :
high AOE dps is needed
being able to kick off adds is needed ....
and on a boss.. well more than just high dps ...
wo , what would be a guide for me where i can build my character up on ?
i wanna give your guide a go, but iam not 100 % sure atm ....cuz when i check your feats iam asking myself why he dont have 3/3 points in wizards wrath, when in almost every ini is so much trash adds for aoe ?
example :
this is yours : http://nwcalc.com/cw?b=m1b:4yqm4:b8i4,13n1i50:6u000:bz0u1:b0000&h=0
and isent the 2nd posting ( the one with the pic ) providing more dps ?
dont get me wrong plz, iam just a bit confused cuz there are a lot of guides out for a CW, where i belive they are not even for a CW ...... ( on some guides i just start to pray , and hope the OP will get some kind of brain , and this dosent count only for CW guides ^^ )
so would be nice if i can get some infos ^^advise plz
With regards to what is this spec for? I think you really need to read the OP, not just look at the spec link. Here is what I wrote exactly:
With that mentality, this spec does the following in an extremely efficient way:
- maximize AoE damage, while still doing excellent single target dps
- maintain maximum CC, and not just in the form of Singularities.
- Constantly debuffing mobs for the entire group.
With regards to all your other questions, I realize that there are over 60 pages, but they have been asked and answered multiple times. Take the time to go through the thread and you will not only find the answers you are looking for, but also a ton of good information by other people too. This is not a guide. It is a spec.
therealcheetahzMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0
edited September 2013
Just starting out myself, so I will refer to this guide often. thanks
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strahdgunMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited September 2013
First off, thank you very much copticone and everyone who's contributed to this amazing thread, esp. pfft2 and grimah for your testing/build efforts.
I've seen a couple posts on this by copticone and pfft2 but has anyone confirmed for sure (not just from tooltips) what spells are currently affected by Wizard's Wrath and Focused Wizardry and Evocation? Is it really only "Chill Strike (on Tab), Ice Storm, and Steal Time." They released a patch that specifically "fixed" these skills but they still only apply to 3 spells? I wouldn't be surprised ofc, it just seems kind of ridiculous.
Post Fury of the Feywild I went to Preview to test the AOE feats and passives with some of the spells I'm using or considered using. Conduit of Ice (Spell Mastery), Icy Terrain, Steal Time, Oppressive Force and Sudden Storm all show the expected about 15 % damage increase when Wizards Wrath and Focused Wizardry are feated. The damage increase for Chilling Cloud is slightly lower (only about 10 %). But that should be due to the fact that only the third hit of CC counts as an AOE. Those numbers are based on the comparison of the crit neutral average damage while spamming my setup on the dummies for about five minutes. Base damage was established with Orb of Imposition and Storm Fury as passives and no feats feated. Unfortunatly I didn't test Shard of the endless Avalanche.
0
strahdgunMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 4Arc User
Post Fury of the Feywild I went to Preview to test the AOE feats and passives with some of the spells I'm using or considered using. Conduit of Ice (Spell Mastery), Icy Terrain, Steal Time, Oppressive Force and Sudden Storm all show the expected about 15 % damage increase when Wizards Wrath and Focused Wizardry are feated. The damage increase for Chilling Cloud is slightly lower (only about 10 %). But that should be due to the fact that only the third hit of CC counts as an AOE. Those numbers are based on the comparison of the crit neutral average damage while spamming my setup on the dummies for about five minutes. Base damage was established with Orb of Imposition and Storm Fury as passives and no feats feated. Unfortunatly I didn't test Shard of the endless Avalanche.
Thanks nethreldras! So it sounds like Wizard's Wrath and Focused Wizardry are working properly for basically all the spells we'd normally use, leaving me a choice of Heroic feats between:
3/3 Wizard's Wrath, 1/3 Blighting Power, 2/5 Learned Spellcaster, 3/3 Focused Wizardry = +15% AoE dmg, +3% cold dmg to chilled targets, +~2.4% dmg to all spells (assuming 20% increased dmg from INT) for a total of:
17.4% AoE dmg, 20.4% AoE cold dmg, 5.4% non-AoE dmg to chilled targets, 2.4% non-AoE dmg to non-chilled target
OR
1/3 Wizard's Wrath, 3/3 Blighting Power, 5/5 Learned Spellcaster = +2% AoE dmg, +9% cold dmg to chilled targets, +~6% dmg to all spells (assuming 20% increased dmg from INT) for a total of:
8% AoE dmg, 17% AoE cold dmg, 15% non-AoE dmg to chilled targets, 6% non-AoE dmg to non-chilled target
If you're running with CoI, Icy Terrain, Sudden Storm, Steal Time for encounters, it's 1/2 cold spells but SS and ST are more damage overall, so you're getting more value out of the AoE dmg increase vs the AoE cold dmg increase. Not a huge difference either way I guess but I feel like I'm doing AoE dmg significantly more of the time than I'm focusing single-target damage using non-AoE spells.
I went 3/3 WW, BP and FW, but Blighting Power was a mistake probably. In our usual setup only Chilling Cloud seems to profit from it. I did not test BP, but that at least was the case when I tested Chilling Presence. So your first feat distribution should provide better damage. I have the impression AOE damage easily is responsible for more than 75 % of our damage (PVE only of course). I mostly use Shard now instead of Sudden Storm (better control) or even Shield (depending on group composition and dungeon). So I'm even considering taking Arcan Mastery instead of Blighting Power, if I should get another chance for a respec.
0
strahdgunMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited September 2013
But isn't BP affecting CoI and Icy Terrain? Also Icy Rays/Ice Knife for PvP/Single target. Arcane Mastery would help Steal Time, Shard and Shield. I guess that's a tough call, 9% more dmg on CoI/Icy Terrain vs 6% more dmg on Steal Time/Shard. Steal Time and Shard are higher damaging spells but also have longer cooldowns and Icy Terrain affects unlimited mobs.
Hmmm now I'm thinking BP 1/3, Learned Spellcaster 2/3 vs 3/3 Arcane Mastery since I've started to use Shard also more...
Conduit of Ice (Spell Mastery), Icy Terrain, Steal Time, Oppressive Force and Sudden Storm all show the expected about 15 % damage increase when Wizards Wrath and Focused Wizardry are feated.
What, that is great news if it's correct! Can some other testers (i.e. copticone, pfft2c or others) confirm they get the same results? That could mean I'd have to respec yet again... :P
As said, I didn't test BP, only CP, but neither tabbed COI nor IT did show a damage increase with CP slotted, when i tested them in rotation. I only assume that the same is true for BP. Both BP and CP are certainly very valuable in PVP or singe target situations to boost Chill Strike, Ice Rays or Ice Knife. My remarks only applied to PVE AOE damage.
Quick question if you could capti. My friend and I are running CW's with this build. We're new to level 60 on these toons, but I was particularly interested as to if duo-(your build) CW's is viable in a normal T1-T2 dungeon?
Quick question if you could capti. My friend and I are running CW's with this build. We're new to level 60 on these toons, but I was particularly interested as to if duo-(your build) CW's is viable in a normal T1-T2 dungeon?
Yes, multiple CWs running this build is perfectly viable.
I haven't been playing NW for a at least a week now and it doesn't look like I will be returning to it any time soon. I just wanted to mention that so people don't think I am ignoring their questions. There are plenty of knowledgeable people who follow this thread and I am sure they will continue to provide valuable info. Thank you all and good luck.
Comments
To spend 31 points in feats, and then use an Encounter on Mastery that doesn't take advantage of ANY of them, provides virtually no dps and basically a single target CC, all this to get some extra AP, to me is a waste. You do your job right, with high AoE dps, you are basically creating an indirect singularity. What do you think happens when you throw a Tabbed CoI, Steal Time, Sudden Storm on a group of mobs? Do they disperse all running in different direction or do they funnel in all rushing towards you in a tight cone? massive AoE dps, couple with AoE freeze/stuns, IMO, is the BEST CC a CW can bring to the table.
Hec I hardly slot Singularity these days. Ran CN last night, after almost 10 days of nothing but MC/Dailies, and it was SO weird slotting Shield again for punting. But I guess that's what makes CWs fun, is that we still have largest pool of usable encounters out of all the classes.
EDIT: EF on TB = more above which is more damage than anything else currently. Keep HV stacks up and keep using OF. Your group will thank you.
Basically this whole post. I thought I would miss the old way, but I find the shield nerf incredibly liberating. I ran this spec before the nerf, but generally slotted EF/shield/Steal Time/CoI for AP so I could AS like everyone expected me to. Now that people know it doesn't work the same and I had to change the spells I am using, I'm free to go for pure DPS with a healthy side of control. Now I've got wizards in my guild who've been renegade since day one asking about the spec.
You can keep HV stacks up without EF on tab. Your group will thank you more for putting CoI on tab and debuffing everything for them on top of your HV debuff.
Edit - Also, is the guide on the first page still up to date? I see it says August 25th. Just curious before I buy a respec token. Sudden Storm is pretty **** sweet. Trying it out now. The only concern I have is survivability in the high end T2 dungeons. With all this damage I'm sure aggro is off the charts, clerics must hate you, lol.
It's actually not a Shard vs Sudden Storm. It's more of Shard vs. Icy Terrain. I currently like having two encounters constantly stacking chills. I guess seeing mobs constantly being frozen gives me a sense of purpose. I have no doubt that Shard will increase dps. I think each should choose this one on their own.
I am not sure I agree. The damage from CoI, plus the added aoe 15% debuff, plus the stacks of chill which not only lead to faster freezes but constantly boosts damage with this spec, not to mention still a very good AP generator (up to 30%), is better than trying to generate a daily a little faster. And then what do you do when you're down to 1-3mobs? EF wont generate that much AP.
General: Corrected issues with some powers not being able to properly score critical strikes such as: Storm Pillar, Shard of the Eternal Avalanche and Flamestrike.
Control Wizard: Chill class feature: Chill may now properly stack on all Crowd Control immune bosses though it does not slow or freeze them.
Thanks to this patch, this spec is now FLAWLESS.
Don't say that! Incoming nerf.
From what I've seen on the calc site, you removed points in Elemental Empowerment to put them in Tempest Magic.
I get the reason Tempest Magic could be useful (especially if you're not a Tiefling). I get that Elemental Empowerment no longer functions on the third strike of Chilling Cloud. But Elemental Empowerment still works with all the other Encounter powers.
What I don't get is why you'd pick Malevolent Surge over Elemental Empowerment, especially in a dungeon environment where trash mobs don't die quite as easily as in PvE content (and honestly, with the High Vizier set - while I do notice the difference Malevolent Surge does - I know I don't need it to kill the redcaps in the adventure zone). The Damage over Time on mobs with tougher dungeon mobs seems ideal.
The reason why I had Elemental Empowerment before because originally the setup was CoI, Icy Terrain, Steal Time, and Shield. You had two Encounters to proc the bleed, and 2 encounters to apply the debuff. To me the bleed was not that big of a deal, and it was more about the debuff. Now that Shield is hardly ever on my bar, it made less sense to take it.
It is really all about what you personally are often slotting. If you slot Encounters that will make good use of the feat, go ahead and take it. With regards to Malevolent Surge, I constantly see the buff on my screen. I guess it has to do with the group you are running with. If you run with a group that chain pulls groups, you will see the benefit of it more than with a group that tries to pull the least amount of trash at a time.
I am actually very happy that people are making good cases for shifting things around with this spec. I never meant for people to blindly follow everything that I do to the letter. I think the more we experiment with the class, and of course the more Cryptic keep changing things, the more we realize that even within the Thauma tree there are still equally viable options.
No that's just a glitch from the feat calculator site.
iam realy new to the mage now and i want :
high DPS .. realy high ..^^
and being able to "controll" stuff on the other side ....
i was reading a lot of postings here, and almost all other guides too, and i have to admit, i have atm no clue what u are talking about at all ^^ atm ......
i was in almost every T2 ini already ....and i see this :
high AOE dps is needed
being able to kick off adds is needed ....
and on a boss.. well more than just high dps ...
wo , what would be a guide for me where i can build my character up on ?
i wanna give your guide a go, but iam not 100 % sure atm ....cuz when i check your feats iam asking myself why he dont have 3/3 points in wizards wrath, when in almost every ini is so much trash adds for aoe ?
example :
this is yours : http://nwcalc.com/cw?b=m1b:4yqm4:b8i4,13n1i50:6u000:bz0u1:b0000&h=0
and isent the 2nd posting ( the one with the pic ) providing more dps ?
dont get me wrong plz, iam just a bit confused cuz there are a lot of guides out for a CW, where i belive they are not even for a CW ...... ( on some guides i just start to pray , and hope the OP will get some kind of brain , and this dosent count only for CW guides ^^ )
so would be nice if i can get some infos ^^advise plz
With regards to what is this spec for? I think you really need to read the OP, not just look at the spec link. Here is what I wrote exactly:
With that mentality, this spec does the following in an extremely efficient way:
- maximize AoE damage, while still doing excellent single target dps
- maintain maximum CC, and not just in the form of Singularities.
- Constantly debuffing mobs for the entire group.
With regards to all your other questions, I realize that there are over 60 pages, but they have been asked and answered multiple times. Take the time to go through the thread and you will not only find the answers you are looking for, but also a ton of good information by other people too. This is not a guide. It is a spec.
I've seen a couple posts on this by copticone and pfft2 but has anyone confirmed for sure (not just from tooltips) what spells are currently affected by Wizard's Wrath and Focused Wizardry and Evocation? Is it really only "Chill Strike (on Tab), Ice Storm, and Steal Time." They released a patch that specifically "fixed" these skills but they still only apply to 3 spells? I wouldn't be surprised ofc, it just seems kind of ridiculous.
Thanks nethreldras! So it sounds like Wizard's Wrath and Focused Wizardry are working properly for basically all the spells we'd normally use, leaving me a choice of Heroic feats between:
3/3 Wizard's Wrath, 1/3 Blighting Power, 2/5 Learned Spellcaster, 3/3 Focused Wizardry = +15% AoE dmg, +3% cold dmg to chilled targets, +~2.4% dmg to all spells (assuming 20% increased dmg from INT) for a total of:
17.4% AoE dmg, 20.4% AoE cold dmg, 5.4% non-AoE dmg to chilled targets, 2.4% non-AoE dmg to non-chilled target
OR
1/3 Wizard's Wrath, 3/3 Blighting Power, 5/5 Learned Spellcaster = +2% AoE dmg, +9% cold dmg to chilled targets, +~6% dmg to all spells (assuming 20% increased dmg from INT) for a total of:
8% AoE dmg, 17% AoE cold dmg, 15% non-AoE dmg to chilled targets, 6% non-AoE dmg to non-chilled target
If you're running with CoI, Icy Terrain, Sudden Storm, Steal Time for encounters, it's 1/2 cold spells but SS and ST are more damage overall, so you're getting more value out of the AoE dmg increase vs the AoE cold dmg increase. Not a huge difference either way I guess but I feel like I'm doing AoE dmg significantly more of the time than I'm focusing single-target damage using non-AoE spells.
Hmmm now I'm thinking BP 1/3, Learned Spellcaster 2/3 vs 3/3 Arcane Mastery since I've started to use Shard also more...
Yes, multiple CWs running this build is perfectly viable.
I haven't been playing NW for a at least a week now and it doesn't look like I will be returning to it any time soon. I just wanted to mention that so people don't think I am ignoring their questions. There are plenty of knowledgeable people who follow this thread and I am sure they will continue to provide valuable info. Thank you all and good luck.