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The simple reason why BOP had to be implimented
quaranax
Member Posts: 105 Arc User
The simple reason why BOP just had to be implemented was the massive and continued deflation of purple quality loot items.
The fact was that due to the extent of T2 dungeon runs being made the supply of purple items was just huge and far out weighed the demand. This imbalance resulted in a perpetuating devaluation of purple loot items that could only have kept on continuing.
The simple, easy fix for this was to make a large percentage of purple item drop and procurement locations BOP. The perhaps unforeseen consequences of that quick fix unfortunately has been a massive drop in the amount of T2 and T1 dungeons being run. Yeh some of this drop is a result of people running the Sharandar campaign, but not the main reason. I definitely notice a massive drop in people playing and my guild for example has gone from between 20 to 30 people online at all times to between 1 and 3.
So how could you solve the problem that lead to BOP being the easy fix without implementing the current overly aggressive and short term focused BOP policies that seem to be killing off the game for so many people ? Well that is a very hard question, if there was an easy and better answer I am sure Cryptic would have gone for it instead but this thread would be a good place to offer suggestions.
I personally feel that strangeling off supply instead of figuring out a more clever way to increase demand is never going to be the best solution. But how could you increase demand? Just hoping for more players is not enough. Perhaps if weapons and armor took some form of damage or wear over time and required another similar item to be sacrificed to repair them. It might result in an overall devaluing of purple items but less than the meagre salvaging rewards and it would certainly also mean an increased and continued demand.
A far more difficult solution would be to add in NPC buy orders to the auction house. They could run on algorithms that monitored player prices and put buy orders for items at a certain percentage below what players were paying.
These are just 2 options I have thought of. Of course all these things would massively alter the in-game economy, but what they wouldn't do is stop people logging in, stop people forming parties, stop people running T2s and stop being haemorrhaging to other games.
The fact was that due to the extent of T2 dungeon runs being made the supply of purple items was just huge and far out weighed the demand. This imbalance resulted in a perpetuating devaluation of purple loot items that could only have kept on continuing.
The simple, easy fix for this was to make a large percentage of purple item drop and procurement locations BOP. The perhaps unforeseen consequences of that quick fix unfortunately has been a massive drop in the amount of T2 and T1 dungeons being run. Yeh some of this drop is a result of people running the Sharandar campaign, but not the main reason. I definitely notice a massive drop in people playing and my guild for example has gone from between 20 to 30 people online at all times to between 1 and 3.
So how could you solve the problem that lead to BOP being the easy fix without implementing the current overly aggressive and short term focused BOP policies that seem to be killing off the game for so many people ? Well that is a very hard question, if there was an easy and better answer I am sure Cryptic would have gone for it instead but this thread would be a good place to offer suggestions.
I personally feel that strangeling off supply instead of figuring out a more clever way to increase demand is never going to be the best solution. But how could you increase demand? Just hoping for more players is not enough. Perhaps if weapons and armor took some form of damage or wear over time and required another similar item to be sacrificed to repair them. It might result in an overall devaluing of purple items but less than the meagre salvaging rewards and it would certainly also mean an increased and continued demand.
A far more difficult solution would be to add in NPC buy orders to the auction house. They could run on algorithms that monitored player prices and put buy orders for items at a certain percentage below what players were paying.
These are just 2 options I have thought of. Of course all these things would massively alter the in-game economy, but what they wouldn't do is stop people logging in, stop people forming parties, stop people running T2s and stop being haemorrhaging to other games.
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But reversing it is not the solution. There was no game there. Only veteran players spamming the AH with cheap <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and new players who bought their loot instead of ever actually playing any content.
What they could perhaps do to make older dungeons more interesting again for vets is to add a choice to salvaging. Instead of the current amounts in rough AD, they could get half the amount in refined AD instead.
I understand the frustration of old players (and new ones who want to open their wallet for loot instead of playing), but they were the only ones having fun. It was like the game was run by a guild cartel. Now it's a classical gear progression as it should have been from the beginning.
Hardly, people still buy gear, T1s are still obsolete and a loss of time, the high end gear is still on the AH just pricier. It's a half-baked "solution" which works a bit and manages to break more than it fixes.
All in all, it all comes down to the fact that PW closed down a hole in their money grabbing system, which allowed a certain type of player to have it all for free, and without a very big stress. Sell gear, buy zen, mounts, companions, EVERYTHING. Now they limited the hole to a very minuscule leak. They might close that too soon, considering that in MC even the boss drops, such as the offhand, are BoP - so players won't be able to make any decent amounts of AD in the near future, just my estimation...
I think the new system is good. Not everything is bind on pickup.
Think of it this way ....
would you rather sell 5 belts at 2-5k AD each or sell one unbound belt at 5-10k AD and salvage the bound belts?
My numbers may be way off, but my point should be clear.
There are still some bind on equip items to be found in dungeons. Under the previous system, you had to auction everything to get AD. New system is easier and more fun because I spend less time at the Auction House.
Nothing is different, except now its run by a smaller zen cartel. Anyone can still gear up by buying zen.
The problem is that the game short changes players at every step for your time and money (companion upgrade costs, useless companions, enchant removal prices, no more profession packs or coalescent in lockboxes, blue loot in Malabog castle, transmute prices, zen assets for crafting malabog weapon, BoP, ad infinitum).
Making gear BoP without something in return, took the reward and fun away of running t2.
The concern was not about players getting their T2 gear cheap/easily (t2 gear is only the beginning of gearing up, not the end), but that players had too much AD for cryptic liking. Everyone has much lower AD income now, and if you study the moves the game has made in every direction, it is about strangulating the wealth of all players and increasing the rarity of and reliance on zen items.
I understand that the game needs to make money, but there are better ways to do it.
This is all.
Its definitely the way they are going. I expect castle never items to become BoP at some point as well.
even if DD is on it is still not 100% sure that you will get the item that you want from chest (making DD event useless)
when dungeon delve event is on you can open the chest but what can you get from it
Tier 2 dungeon delve chests:
10% - drops the T2 set armor/weapon piece the in game description says (note each class has 3 sets)
20% - drops the other T2 ring/necklace/belt piece the in game description says
50% - drops a random T1 piece your class can use (armor, weapon or otherwise)
20% - drops a random usually junk purple from the endboss in the area
Blue items
you will love the blue items for sure you wasted 1hour or more to get blue item from event very rewarding right?
with BoP imagine the new players trying to farm t2 with blue gears or t1 parts?
lots of dungeons are bugged
some dungeons are impossible for PUG (most needs 2 or 3 geared players to finish it)
some are poorly designed unli adds bugged boss, and they keep on nerfing classes, always have new bug every patch
last boss doesnt drop t2 or t1 set item 100% mostly it drops trash making supply more limited
the advantage of having high lvl character before is that you can equip your new character using your main to farm but with BoP its impossible now, bank is not account wide
in other MMOs you can transfer BOA(bind on account) to other character but at NW you cant
they implemented BoP without even testing or thinking a way to not kill their game
its their game they can do whatever they like to it
Lol sounds like someone is just bad... How do you think the first players to run T2's did it? was it "impossible" for them to do without already have T2 lol? T1 is more than sufficient to run a T2 dungeon, player skill is the only problem as a large portion of players seem to be terrible.
I have run 4 DD's since patch and 2 out of 4 gave me the exact T2 piece I needed, if you still have characters to gear and don't want to just buy it off the AH this saves huge time. Vigilant boots = 575k, 2nd FH I got them.
Yes prices are high, but they are just as high when you're on the selling end. When you run a T2 and get even a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> drop from 1st 2 bosses it can be worth as much as 100k, while T2 is around 500k+. So it doesn't take any longer to make the same amount of AD, it's just that prices are inflated right now.
Not to mention enchant/ward prices have pretty much stayed the same so if you already have your armor and just need enchants its 3x easier to make enough money for enchants.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Yesterday on guild channel. A guy shouts
"Anyone for Spider?"
Two pages of lvl60 ppl online in guild roster. Ten min later, not one answer. I start typing "I would, but I am gwf" and eventually I just prefer to answer nothing. I guess other guildies also refrained from actually posting their own answer on guild channel. "Stuffed already." "Don't waste ur time and potions there."
Before the patch, the guild channel would have been flooded instantly
"me me me"
"inv"
"Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"
"Never did it but inv me if there is one free slot left."
yeah BoP without better implementation also murdered the social aspect of a large part of the game
Right now there's huge wall for fresh 60s (new players and alts both) since only way to get T1 set is buy zen (and sell it to get AD to buy stuff from AH) or run PvP as underpowered toon then its GG coins and enchant farm until you have that 11k GS so you can run CN/MC
skill is useless if you dont have enough damage at some dungeons
classes before are strong (not nerfed to ground yet)
you can bug boss they will go suicide
now compare before and now then ask how did they farm their items before?
most dungeons now is impossible for pug with normal gears some needs all members to have 11k+ GS
and again my point is DD event is useless needs a lot of improvements, just read at the complaints on the forum some are farming dungeon to get 1 part that they need for 1 week but still cant get it
they rushed implementing BoP
buy gears from AH again youre not thinking about everyone most new players will only have 50k AD or less when they reach 60 and youre saying to buy 500k+ piece from AH genius
why include enchants is it also BoP now lol?
best example of dungeon that waste your time is malabog
lol sounds like someone is just bad.. it made me lol when he said to compare before and now
You act like dungeons are simply too hard to complete, so the only thing I can infer is that you're bad, I'm sorry. I have done multiple pugs since patch with my 9.2k DC and even with 2-3 other teams members <10k we were able to complete Karru, FH, and even Spell. Spell took a while but we finally finished it. (took a while as in took a while to kill the boss, we actually didn't wipe at all) Not to mention how much GS do you think T1 armor gives? Stat wise T1 is only a small decrease from T2, like 20-40 of each stat less, so you can still attain 11k+ GS with T1.
The reason I mentioned enchants is because many people are saving AD for them. Now when you run a dungeon the drops sell for 3 times the amount they used to while enchants remain similar priced to before. So if you get a drop in a dungeon you will have 3 times more AD to go toward your enchants than you would pre patch.
Yes I agree that people do dungeons less often now. But honestly I don't understand why, the drops are worth triple what they used to be, so you stand to be compensated even more for your time investment, not to mention if you actually need a piece of T2 it's easier to get during DD.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I did an experiment for a couple of weeks on my now 12.5 cw - i randomly queued for t2 dungeons to see what pugs were like. My experience was that 3 of 4 players are clueless, and 2 of 4 have no desire to learn to be better. I saw good players in blues, and terrible players in purples. The groups that had skilled players did well regardless of their gear, while geared groups of bad players failed.
Knowledge and skill are far, far more important then gear in this game.
you are not compensated more for your time at all. Lets be generous and say a t2 item drops 20% of the time from boss. That means you have a 4% chance of winning the item (assuming everyone greeds that is). Running a dungeon on average of 25x for an item is just pointless. Secondly, items may be listed for 3-4x of their old value, but in most cases only ones listed at 2x are actually selling.
But even non T2 items have value now. In an FH run that didn't even drop T2 a Cleric offhand dropped, hrimnir ring dropped, and a vorpal shard dropped. The offhand was going for 60k, the ring 180k, and 20k for a vorpal, and that's on a "bad" run where no T2 drops.
Pre-patch a "bad" run meant you vendored your garbage belt you got from the chest and had a net loss for the run b/c you drank 10 potions and used 2 kits.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
i am a 17k GS GF and will probably be moving onto other game after i got my fomorian set
Eh I was a few large/massive guilds before I gave up and started my own... why... 300-500 members with an average of 25 level 60 players online at any given time... Anyone want to join me for dungeon XXXX... response crickets.
Now I have about 20 people who are willing to play anything at any given time to get experience and have fun. I think it's a mindset. I don't play games to go retail... just saying...
I decided I wanted my HV set for my CW and didn't have a single piece. 5 DD runs later I had the whole set. FH had to be run twice. Without BoP who knows how long it would have taken to get the whole set.
Yeah I personally love the change. I really don't get peoples obsession in this game to run dungeons just to sell stuff.
Funny wasn't it? In just 2 short days when the FOFW dropped ALL of the reasonably priced T2 gear just disappeared from the AH to be replaced by 300k to 500k versions of the same thing. and scalpers say "Oh the devs were concerned about the deflation of T2 prices....yada yada yada..new 60s should be made to earn....yada...yada...yada"
HOCK AND PHOOEY ...Since I've got a CW whose ready to upgrade from 2 and 2 T1 I've been watching High Vizier pieces in the AH for 3 weeks. LOL ..Watching it tick down from 4 days to 3 days to... to.... and then get posted again. I cheer every time a piece times out and loses 30 - 50 K for the scalper that posted it. I would doubt that more than 4 or 5 pieces have actually sold. But its coming down...
Now while you all keep sitting here and patting yourselves on the back you can't ignore the fact that not many people really want or need this gear because the dungeons are mostly empty. Its just not worth my time. I make a better income with crafting, Leadership, and farming boss heavy foundry missions. If I was foolish enough to pay the market price, I could buy two sets of T2,or go get it myself, but I'm allergic to wasting time and money. The que system is a train wreck. The teambuilding proc screws up without a lot of players waiting, so almost none of the new 60s really have a chance to get their feet wet. Nobody in LFT wants them without an 11k gear score. Players like me have better things to do. That doesn't leave you with much of a market.
Now I didn't break the endgame. I'm not happy about the state its in, or the fact that just when new players are getting to the content that should draw them in to stay they are choosing to leave in frustration. Most players don't like the endgame anymore, so they don't play it. So would one or more of you kindly explain to me how you can be so smug about BOP in spite of what it has cost the game.
Maybe I'd better go put my knee boots on, its fixin to get deep.
9.2k DC you think thats a new player GS?
with pvp set you will only have 8k+ GS that means you have lots of enchants
again you dont think for everyone you only think of players that already have sets and enchants
and dont include enchants its not BoP
t1 you can finish it with skills
but some t2 with unli adds you cant finish it without enough damage and toughness
The Simple Reason Why BOP Had To Be Implimented
bec they just want to implement it
You forgot to mention that they made T2 3 times easier to farm if you didn't want to spend the money. Not to mention the huge AD you can make by actually running dungeons and selling loot now.
I paid 400k for Vigilant helm yesterday b/c honestly who's going to take a GWF to Spell lol =P But I ran a couple dungeons with other characters before that and made over 600k, which I never would have even been close to pre patch. So yes gear is more expensive, so if you continue to run dungeons that means the gear you are selling will also go for more. If you are too lazy to ever run anything then boo hoo for you, you can wait until you refine 400k to get your T2 pieces.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I know for myself, I bought T1 gear super cheap, but now that I have a solo way to earn it, I'm slowly replacing it all with Feywild gear. I don't mind the BOP thing at all, but I'm not a dungeon guy.
Before my experience was this:
I'm a GF. Without the OP Stalwart Bulwark set, no one would take you into lfg groups. That set cost 2 million AD per piece on the AH, thanks to inflation from exploits (caturday) and how rare it was (back then only 3% drop chance instead of 10 - no free choice of a set). All the drops from the dungeons were sellable, but if it wasn't one of the BiS set items (which had, again, 3% drop chance), it was utterly and completely worthless. Like 1000 AD for a T2 main hand. The only one who profited from that **** were the farm guilds who did 5 dungeons per event abusing exploits like crazy, so they eventually got their rare drops and made millions. The normal player was shafted and could never hope to get together specific sets.
Now when I play DDs I have a very good chance of getting the gear I want, of completing sets, and the stuff I find I can turn into at least 6k AD via salvage. Most purples back then didn't even sell on the AH for that much! The only stuff with crazy profits was very specific sets with tiny drop rate. If you only do a dungeon a day the new system is just 20 times better. I'm sorry if the farm guilds can no longer farm 20 perfect enchants in a week for their e-peen, but get over it.
Lol I have a full set of blue's except for weapon/offhand, I spent under 20k for everything I"m wearing and slotted rank 5's that I combined myself. My gear is power/crit/regen and meant for PvP, and my spec is also 100% PvP and yet even with multiple other <10k GS players we were able to complete T2's, baffling right?
Edit: My other 4 60's all have their T2 sets and are only working on enchants. I run dungeons with them too b/c I make on average triple or more what I used to make running dungeons. The only thing I'm saying about enchants it that enchants have not changed in price but I make triple what I used to, so enchants are now easier to get b/c I'm making more money.
If you just run some dungeons instead of complaining on forums you will see that you actually make more money now.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I don't want to buy my stuff... I actually enjoy playing the game WITHOUT exploits. I'm not in this GAME to make fake money! So BoP w/ the end chest change is FANTASTIC in my eyes!