You sir must have the paitence of a bloody siant. I have given up trying to explain to people why BOP was a good thing for the DD.
Well, if you are trying to explain to people that lemon has sweet taste, don't be surprised that nobody will listen.
Maybe me and my friends are just unlucky, but I think I did over 200 dungeon runs (too bad there is no counter ) during my 3 months of playing NW and as far as I remember, I have seen about 5 drops from non-CN boss which were actually worth something and I got 1 Avatar of War bracers. If the DD chest would be like it is now, I would have literally nothing.
So yes, lemon is sweet and BoP helped the DD and the game.
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arielstarshadowMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2013
I agree with all of this, except I must point out - the current cheating and exploitation of dungeons means that many of the people selling things on the AH aren't people we should be supporting by giving them in-game rewards for their ill-gotten gains.
In addition, I don't believe the armor is actually selling for those high prices for the most part. What I see a lot of are auctions with high buyouts, and high starting bids - and not a single bid on them. So if all you do is look at the current auctions, you may end up with a very skewed - and incorrect - perception of what things are selling for.
Being able to level a character to sixty in three days and have the AH so flooded with drops that all but a select few T2 sets are worth less than 100K AD (something most people have around level 60) there's a serious problem. That's a co-op speed. People reached level sixty and could do anything....they had nothing left to shoot for.
There are certainly people upset with BoP but most of them aren't really considering the true effects of the system. So many claim that the prices are purely to cause players to buy AD and I just want to scream every time I hear it. It's so wrong it's not even funny, it's rather infuriating.
Prices in the AH being high means you can now do dungeons and have a chance to get a drop worth money.
I agree that the loot rolls now need to be looked at again. We need "need rolls" to result in gear being BoP as well to discourage people to need on gear just to sell it on the AH but the loot potential is far greater than they ever were.
When you see item drops selling for 100K each that means some other player is receiving 100K that you're spending.
Why does everyone seem to want to buy their gear? I really don't understand. Earning gear is like...one of the whole reasons to play this kinda game. Power progression through hard work, rather than "I NEED EPIX: U TAEK MASTERCARD?"
Anyway, for established players the loot/reward ratio hasn't really changed: everything gets more expensive, but everything sellable is worth more. The only real difference is that newly dinged 60s can't just simply nab a cheap set of T2 off the AH and then go fail at epic pirate multiple times (srsly). Which, I would argue, is largely the idea: you're supposed to ding while still in blues and greens (more blues now, since blue drop rate++) which will easily get you the score needed to do T1s, you farm those for a while, learning the ins and outs of your class in epic dungeons, then gradually get yourself a set of T1 which lets you do T2s etc.
Jumping straight into T2s takes a huge chunk of the learning curve out, and ...well, it shows.
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badpanda69Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
It is NOT a good thing. Thus you can never explain why it is a good thing.
I could explain it but some thing tells me that you would not be open to listening.
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fathomfulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 207Bounty Hunter
edited September 2013
I like BoP better.
I leveled my cleric then geared him out entirely for all end game content with right around 40k AD.
That is broken.
Feels better way it is now IMO. Gives more incentive to earn gear. i could have done this before, but seemed silly when its just sitting there for pennies.
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greeniewolf0Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 83
I could explain it but some thing tells me that you would not be open to listening.
No you can't explain it. Because it is not a good thing. Was never a good thing. It has hurt the in game economy and driven lots of players with limited time to leave, and has increasingly given Neverwinter bad press in game reviews. None of that is a good thing. The fact that the average gamer with limited time and limited funds to drop in the game cannot afford to equip themselves well enough to survive even the most basic t1 dungeon is not a good thing. the fact that only those that were able to use exploits and drive the prices up on items or those with thousands of USD to burn can afford to buy gear now, and effectively control the game economy is NOT a good thing.
Both guild I belonged to were comprised of college students, working parents, and working young people. over 3/4ths of both guilds left the game since these went into effect because there's very little point to the game. they can never survive the end game content because the way the game is designed, you have to already have good t1 gear to survive the dungeons required to get the t2 gear and even then it is virtually impossible to find a party because all the exploiters want you to have 12-14k gear scores to run the t1 dungeons, and party leaders on even fully random queues often check and kick those with gear scores under 12k.
Those that remain in those guilds are either the role players that have decided to just give up on the endgame content or those like me that had at least one char make it though and struggle to sell salvage or whatever for MONTHS to get ONE single piece of gear for our alts. MONTHS. Not days or weeks like in a healthy economy but MONTHS! If I am lucky I can afford to get a good armor for my gf by november. More realistically it will be January.
Please explain how any of this is good for the common gamer. Oh I am sure it is great for the exploiters and the rich. But for the rest of us? There is NOTHING good for the rest of us.
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greeniewolf0Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 83
I leveled my cleric then geared him out entirely for all end game content with right around 40k AD.
That is broken.
Feels better way it is now IMO. Gives more incentive to earn gear. i could have done this before, but seemed silly when its just sitting there for pennies.
At no time could you equip a cleric for 40k. I know I have one. at the cheapest point for a full t1 set it was 120k. (Which is actually pretty healthy price.) it was about 400k to equip a decent t2 set. (again a HEALTHY price)
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badpanda69Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
No you can't explain it. Because it is not a good thing. Was never a good thing. It has hurt the in game economy and driven lots of players with limited time to leave, and has increasingly given Neverwinter bad press in game reviews. None of that is a good thing. The fact that the average gamer with limited time and limited funds to drop in the game cannot afford to equip themselves well enough to survive even the most basic t1 dungeon is not a good thing. the fact that only those that were able to use exploits and drive the prices up on items or those with thousands of USD to burn can afford to buy gear now, and effectively control the game economy is NOT a good thing.
Both guild I belonged to were comprised of college students, working parents, and working young people. over 3/4ths of both guilds left the game since these went into effect because there's very little point to the game. they can never survive the end game content because the way the game is designed, you have to already have good t1 gear to survive the dungeons required to get the t2 gear and even then it is virtually impossible to find a party because all the exploiters want you to have 12-14k gear scores to run the t1 dungeons, and party leaders on even fully random queues often check and kick those with gear scores under 12k.
Those that remain in those guilds are either the role players that have decided to just give up on the endgame content or those like me that had at least one char make it though and struggle to sell salvage or whatever for MONTHS to get ONE single piece of gear for our alts. MONTHS. Not days or weeks like in a healthy economy but MONTHS! If I am lucky I can afford to get a good armor for my gf by november. More realistically it will be January.
Please explain how any of this is good for the common gamer. Oh I am sure it is great for the exploiters and the rich. But for the rest of us? There is NOTHING good for the rest of us.
Cant read this massive wall of rage sorry.
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fathomfulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 207Bounty Hunter
At no time could you equip a cleric for 40k. I know I have one. at the cheapest point for a full t1 set it was 120k. (Which is actually pretty healthy price.) it was about 400k to equip a decent t2 set. (again a HEALTHY price)
sorry you are dead wrong.
I was buying my T2 pieces on my server for around 4k a piece due to market flooding.
I decided early i didnt want to roll a 4pc Miracle healers set. I wanted the 2+2 grand templar and beacon set. Was able to get all four pieces for peanuts.
40k AD got me full tier 2 set and weapon and off hand. All other pieces i bought with gold i saved up from leveling and the shirt and pants i made with mailsmithing.
Literally 25 gold, 40k AD and 1 dragon egg, got me 10.5 gearscore immediately after dinging 60. I have literally only run T1 on any character just for funsies or for a guildie.
Edit: I am not saying everyone had this experience. My opinion is that if its that simple to skip and entire tier of gear and an entire tier of dungeons something is broken. BoP fixes that. Sucks for all those yet to come i know, but still its a better system.
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nearlydiamondMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 105Bounty Hunter
Being able to level a character to sixty in three days and have the AH so flooded with drops that all but a select few T2 sets are worth less than 100K AD (something most people have around level 60) there's a serious problem. That's a co-op speed. People reached level sixty and could do anything....they had nothing left to shoot for.
I totally disagree - this argues entirely for the game being driven by progression for loot. This is ultimately self defeating because you strip out all but the hardcore players the further along you progress.
Making theloot easy to get at this stage in the game means that you make the level 60 content accessable for the majority of your players, and skill can decide the rest, and the progression. The economy was broken not by the availability of the items but by bugs that were reported in Beta and Cryptic did nothing about. Making it easy to progressw encourages emergent gameplay and new ways of doing things - for example - your class balance issues mean that unless you get geared as a GWF, no one wants you in a PVE group because the quickest way to run a dungeon is with 2 or three CW, a rogue to tank the boss and an aggro magnet GF to AoE taunt the bewildering numbers of adds in most encounters.
By gearing appropriately I enjoyed dungeons more, was ble to take other lower level guildies through and still get the possibility of a reward at the end of the system to sell for AD or kit out another character slot I had. The AD allowed me to start ascending the frankly impossibly expensive tiers of Augmentation in the game which further drove my character progression. FOr longevity , particularly at the prices you're charging you'll need to foster emergent behaviour in this game, and not kill it.
There are certainly people upset with BoP but most of them aren't really considering the true effects of the system. So many claim that the prices are purely to cause players to buy AD and I just want to scream every time I hear it. It's so wrong it's not even funny, it's rather infuriating.
Prices in the AH being high means you can now do dungeons and have a chance to get a drop worth money.
I agree that the loot rolls now need to be looked at again. We need "need rolls" to result in gear being BoP as well to discourage people to need on gear just to sell it on the AH but the loot potential is far greater than they ever were.
This doesn't work because you've taken away the engine for creating AD in the community which was selling the items people want.
How the hell are they going to save up 200+ k AD per item if they can't sell the itrems they get that they don't need? It's a self defeating argument, people made money and spent money on lower priced products because they were readily available. If you remove the AD form the economy by reducing the drops and potential to sell more items then you add a disproportionate level of frustration to the game, and this is compounded by the fact that you have rediculously underpowered items for thins like 150 Celestial coins (150 days of play) when everyone is levelled to 60 in less than 5. You've created a game with fast controls, and fast levelling, you can't seriously expect that to suddenly throw the brakes on a level 60 is going to generate anything other than player frustration? tha balance is all wrong. It would even have been better just to keep the T1 all BoE so that the new 60s could at least get to an entry level stage in things.
If all you see is the bigger price tag your missing the other side of the equation...somebody gets the bigger price tag's return and it isn't Cryptic.
When you see item drops selling for 100K each that means some other player is receiving 100K that you're spending.
You won't be able to get guaranteed drops to sell, no.
But you will get drops worth selling every time if you actually get the drops.
no one with the AD you claim this wil be worth will spend it because they're the guys who have all the gear from before and who <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> the AH and dungeons fro everything they were worth. The new guys will take alot longer to get the gear, and thecontent isn't there to keep them interested if they can't access the dungeons to mess around in, or do PvP with reasonable gear.
And that's why the Need and Greed buttons need to be reworked.
But the economy is far healthier now than it was before. The game economy is back where it should be for an MMO instead of all the loot being worth a pittance and progression being a matter of weeks/months instead of days.
The shame is we're back to it being only gear progress to drive it forward. It hink it's a real shame and that you're glossing over what is in fact a far larger negative impact.
I geared quickly and as a result of increased access to the game played more and have spent more. I still enjoy the game, but the reduced access and drive for BoP is Backward IMO.
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ausdoerrtMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
At no time could you equip a cleric for 40k. I know I have one. at the cheapest point for a full t1 set it was 120k. (Which is actually pretty healthy price.) it was about 400k to equip a decent t2 set. (again a HEALTHY price)
I geared mine for under 50k AD as well - full T1 set plus epic weapon plus rings. That was on Mindflayer - maybe it wasn't as flooded on other shards. Here, a piece of T1 gear went for about 5-6k AD on average, 2k at the lowest (yes, below the current salvage amount). I don't think that's quite right.
t2 gear means <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> all, not when you try to do CM or CN and people will not take you over
1) not having 12k GS
2) not having a cat or stone companion
3) not experienced
and 4) not willing to exploit.
so BOP has just restricted a ton of people from ever gearing up or at the very least gonna make it utter hell to do so.
couldn't agree more. BoP as I mentioned was a benefit for the old players who had gear, the AD stocked, and the items for sale.
it is insane a player who likes just one char having to wait like 10 days to buy a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> 240k AD item, when will this guy buy even a greater enchantment? if the purpose of bop was make it more fair for everybody, it was a big fail.
(ps I am pretty well geared, and so far the only thing i need would be would be exchange my radiants from 8 to 9,10, and my armor enchant, all rest including weapon enchant is mastered. and is till see how hard and dumb is to make AD now, imagine for new a player... forcing players to buy zen for more slots chars, or to buy zen in the market doesn't seen like a good approach really. come on don't be greedy cryptgames, 2 million players buying stuff here and there is well enough for you
Being able to level a character to sixty in three days and have the AH so flooded with drops that all but a select few T2 sets are worth less than 100K AD (something most people have around level 60) there's a serious problem. That's a co-op speed. People reached level sixty and could do anything....they had nothing left to shoot for.
There are certainly people upset with BoP but most of them aren't really considering the true effects of the system. So many claim that the prices are purely to cause players to buy AD and I just want to scream every time I hear it. It's so wrong it's not even funny, it's rather infuriating.
Prices in the AH being high means you can now do dungeons and have a chance to get a drop worth money.
I agree that the loot rolls now need to be looked at again. We need "need rolls" to result in gear being BoP as well to discourage people to need on gear just to sell it on the AH but the loot potential is far greater than they ever were.
If all you see is the bigger price tag your missing the other side of the equation...somebody gets the bigger price tag's return and it isn't Cryptic.
When you see item drops selling for 100K each that means some other player is receiving 100K that you're spending.
You won't be able to get guaranteed drops to sell, no.
But you will get drops worth selling every time if you actually get the drops.
And that's why the Need and Greed buttons need to be reworked.
But the economy is far healthier now than it was before. The game economy is back where it should be for an MMO instead of all the loot being worth a pittance and progression being a matter of weeks/months instead of days.
who can do the high game dungeons? you? the end game gear players?, you missing the "new players side dude". and a game that is not attractive to new players and old players at the same time is faded to die, keep that in mind. and even so, doing dungeons now became gambling with BoP, you have to do it with the right people to share the AD profits, or you have to pray in CN for example drops something of your class so you can need and try to sell it. Malabog castle for example, only profit is from the craft items, nothing else because all rest is bop, and still it is a gamble. i got the crafted item only once in five runs.
but yeah, i would really agree if they worked on the need and greed buttons, someone mentioned about "BoP" on need only. that would make PERFECT sense. because, what is the point of need? when you really need the item and is willing to use it of course. if you dont need it, you are going to sell it right? so BoP on Need, and no BoP on greed would be amazing. for sure. But still don't like the BoP on chest. since the greed/need is a gamble, and sometimes the same person win everything, sometimes a unlucky person will do many runs and never get a good item for sell.
So yes, complaining that you now need to work harder to gather the AD needed to buy your stuff off the AH is...kinda missing the entire point of the changes. It was not to make you buy zen for AD, it was to encourage you to actually run the dungeons.
explain then how me and my guild have been doing less Dungeons now than before. Before patch we would pretty much do all kinds of dungeons, we would do gg. because everything had purpose.
now we dont do as much as before. the only few who do that, are the "dps" people on cn mc sometimes, and they dont include much not well geared people or (gwf) tankers like me. so for me and many other people, that idea of you didn't work very well, it had the opposite effect.
Market should be part of any game, it is part of the fun, be able to play with the economics of the game, be a seller, be a buyer.
this was not made for people work for their gear, because that was something we always HAD. now we have ONLY this, and market will die slowly everyday. and as i said, onc ei am done with the boons of sharandar, if until there nothing new attractive comes, the BoP is removed, or they fix what they did somehow, me and many friends wont have mood or reason to play anymore. do dailies and 3, 4 or more toons it is just forceful and stupid. i want to have fun, not "work" in game, makes sense?
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No the way it was before was flooding the market with items. That's the problem. Always has been.
As long as the economy isn't flooded with items then we're good to go. Plus Dungeon Delve loot drops are only for your class so unless you plan on making alts of the same class, some people do, it will not massively effect the market.
What's stopping people from flooding the market with the jewelry next? Nothing but the droprates. So imo it's the same thing as the gear, supply will eventually outgrow demand and all that stuff will sell for peanuts again.
I agree with you that the problem is overflooding, I'm just saying that this solution doesn't tackle the problem, it's just a frustrating delay to players and is a push to turn Zen into AD.
My main concern is how the average income for a casual player relates to the new cost of loot and it's availability. In the current setup it's already very hard to finish T2's in T1 gear and I reckon T1's will be too tough for blues. With less income and less items to spend it on, it will be that much harder to farm your own way into the necessary ADs.
I'm not saying it's impossible when properly balanced, but the current prices of everything (unbinding, transmuting and certain critical items such as wards only available through Zen or it's exchange into ADs) are too high in relation to what a casual gamer can grind.
Isn't hard end a t1 whit blue gear. People have only to learn how to use their class; you can see a lot of GF doing DPS and not taking the mob away from DC-CW. A lot of player still didn't know what mob they must hit for first, that's why a lot of party fail on doing T1 and T2. When i was green/blue i did all the T1 whit friend unequippend, and we never got problem. So stop complain about BoP ruin the game, beacause isn't real. Now you have to cooperate whit the full party, and not play anymore like a solo hero. If you wont to play alone, do the PvP and get the glory set, but don't come cry if some of full equipped oneshot you whit the at-will
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bpskibbenheimsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 210Bounty Hunter
edited September 2013
The only problem with BoP is that the game wasn't launched like this so now it throws the economy off as well as upsets people because we were all spoiled by the easy gear progression. BoE encouraged exploitative farming (along with unaddressed exploits) and led to far too many players being BiS in every slot far too quickly and having nothing to do.
The only problem with BoP is that the game wasn't launched like this so now it throws the economy off as well as upsets people because we were all spoiled by the easy gear progression. BoE encouraged exploitative farming (along with unaddressed exploits) and led to far too many players being BiS in every slot far too quickly and having nothing to do.
The truth right here.
It sucks for now, but in 3 months nobody will remember it any other way and the game will be better for it.
If you want rank 7+ enchants now you have to buy zen. or grind invoking and leadership for months. Yay, a game which encourages you to log in for 5 minutes every day then log out because that's the only activity that's worth your time.
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nearlydiamondMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 105Bounty Hunter
The only problem with BoP is that the game wasn't launched like this so now it throws the economy off as well as upsets people because we were all spoiled by the easy gear progression. BoE encouraged exploitative farming (along with unaddressed exploits) and led to far too many players being BiS in every slot far too quickly and having nothing to do.
nope - there was more to do - I ran dungeons every night , doing ones \i had no need of the gear from with people who did because of the fun factor adn teh excitement came partly because of the possibility of getting somethign to sell at the end.
The economy will right itself - the economy happened the way it did because the xploits were not limitted to ao coupleof players who could to everything and so were actually fair.
The exploitations, some of which were adding to the fun factor BTW actually were available to everyone and so not in fact exploits but part of the game.
Whether it was intended to work this way is another matter but as previously mentioned most of hte major exploits were reported in closed beta and nothing was done about them. The beauty of having an easy currency system is that it puts off the gold farmers, like you get flooding every other bloody MMO, and now presently we are faced with a rediculous system of useless gold in game, and there is only one reason to suppose that the devs want the value of AD to go up, and that is that you can't buy as much Zen and buck the overall sales plan. If AD are ubiquitous the value of Zen goes down and the business model starts to fail.
HOwever Manmy people I know intend now to not spend as much zen because their spending of zen was closely linked to theperception of fun which has been negatively challenged by these changes.
I want this game to succeed, I really enjoy playing it, and a great deal of that enjoyment came from bypassing the grind of levelling and focussing on skills and working as a team.
True, the chests now offer blue gear too, as do the bosses.
Happened to me yesterday. First it's the first boss that drops blue, than it's second who drops epic for the other class guy who needs it, then it's the final boss and he drops the epic for other class as well, and then I open my DD chest and get a blue item to vendor for 34 silver and a bunch of seals. Are you guys joking?
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2013
So as one of the players putting up t2 gear at ridiculous prices yet still undercutting everyone on AH, none of it is selling. It sold at first from the 2% of the player base that just buys AD from zen but after they all geared up, none of the 98% can afford the gear. SO the prices are plummetting and it's still not selling.
Far less people are running dungeons, and far less people are playing the game in general, so there's far less loot on the AH and the reality is it's not worth it to farm T2s on or off DDs. Experienced/geared players just farm CN all day, and that gets old. Which results in the only people running dungeons as new players/undergeared/inexperienced and they are just failing, and then quitting. This is a direct result of BOP change, as it happened before FF14 (which is such as crappy game but cryptic apologists will blame that instead of the broken BOP patch)
BOP was the worst change to a game ever.
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fathomfulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 207Bounty Hunter
So as one of the players putting up t2 gear at ridiculous prices yet still undercutting everyone on AH, none of it is selling. It sold at first from the 2% of the player base that just buys AD from zen but after they all geared up, none of the 98% can afford the gear. SO the prices are plummetting and it's still not selling.
Far less people are running dungeons, and far less people are playing the game in general, so there's far less loot on the AH and the reality is it's not worth it to farm T2s on or off DDs. Experienced/geared players just farm CN all day, and that gets old. Which results in the only people running dungeons as new players/undergeared/inexperienced and they are just failing, and then quitting. This is a direct result of BOP change, as it happened before FF14 (which is such as crappy game but cryptic apologists will blame that instead of the broken BOP patch)
BOP was the worst change to a game ever.
Yea i disagree with this.
My guild is growing, the playerbase is growing from what i can see.
This is like Burger King seeing a decline in burger sales and postulating that the population of the world is declining to cause it.
inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2013
disagree all you want you're wrong. The number of people playing is down. the number of dungeons are down. Look in game, you can see populations on map. instead of relying on purely anecdotal BS. They need to merge servers asap.
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fathomfulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 207Bounty Hunter
disagree all you want you're wrong. The number of people playing is down. the number of dungeons are down. Look in game, you can see populations on map. instead of relying on purely anecdotal BS. They need to merge servers asap.
I looked on the map there is no population number displayed. Fact is that there is no way of knowing whether population is declining or not unless you work for cryptic. All of our thoughts are anecdotal BS.
I was only saying that my experience in game, in guild, in streaming runs contrary to your opinion.
I looked on the map there is no population number displayed. Fact is that there is no way of knowing whether population is declining or not unless you work for cryptic. All of our thoughts are anecdotal BS.
I was only saying that my experience in game, in guild, in streaming runs contrary to your opinion.
Agree with the server merge comment.
Thanks for demonstrating your ignorance on the subject at hand and invalidating anything further you have to say on this or any other matter. I know shills like you get paid to fluff and blow smoke up dev's arses but get better at it please.
used to be 30+ instances of PE @ 150 each, now there's on average 6 and none are full. combined that with Sharandar #s since a lot of 60s are there and the numbers are down to 30% from before the BOP change.
You can tell the number of people running dungeons by zone/lfg spam and in addition by queueing with a GF as the queue system is coded to always build a party with a GF first for some reason.
Far less people are playing the game and far less people are running dungeons. those that are are newbs without gear or experience and are failing at them in dramatic fashion. I ran all-alt groups to finish gearing out my CW's HV set but heaven help anyone without guild/friends trying to run dungeons nowadays.
I would say that BOP will kill this game but it's already dealt the mortal blow. Enjoy the single player game that is the 3 days it takes to level from 1 to 60 because after that it's becoming a ghost town.
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bpskibbenheimsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 210Bounty Hunter
disagree all you want you're wrong. The number of people playing is down. the number of dungeons are down. Look in game, you can see populations on map. instead of relying on purely anecdotal BS. They need to merge servers asap.
Surely the population numbers aren't down in the area you checked, Protector's Enclave (don't try and claim you have complied the numbers on every zone before and after), because people are spending time in the festival zone and Sharandar? There are a lot of people in Sharandar and the Festival zone.
BoP has made this game pointless for a casual solo player new to the game. The speed of leveling hasnt changed at all. Except now when you hit 60, there is nothing within AD price range worth getting, and what is there, is overpriced trash compared to preBoP. I got all my t2 before the nerf(because it was a nerf), so by rights i should be pro BoP because it benefits me that unequipped players will probably never get my gear before they quit the game or buy zen. Is that the game you were playing preBoP? I think not.
Comments
It is NOT a good thing. Thus you can never explain why it is a good thing.
Well, if you are trying to explain to people that lemon has sweet taste, don't be surprised that nobody will listen.
Maybe me and my friends are just unlucky, but I think I did over 200 dungeon runs (too bad there is no counter
So yes, lemon is sweet and BoP helped the DD and the game.
In addition, I don't believe the armor is actually selling for those high prices for the most part. What I see a lot of are auctions with high buyouts, and high starting bids - and not a single bid on them. So if all you do is look at the current auctions, you may end up with a very skewed - and incorrect - perception of what things are selling for.
Anyway, for established players the loot/reward ratio hasn't really changed: everything gets more expensive, but everything sellable is worth more. The only real difference is that newly dinged 60s can't just simply nab a cheap set of T2 off the AH and then go fail at epic pirate multiple times (srsly). Which, I would argue, is largely the idea: you're supposed to ding while still in blues and greens (more blues now, since blue drop rate++) which will easily get you the score needed to do T1s, you farm those for a while, learning the ins and outs of your class in epic dungeons, then gradually get yourself a set of T1 which lets you do T2s etc.
Jumping straight into T2s takes a huge chunk of the learning curve out, and ...well, it shows.
I could explain it but some thing tells me that you would not be open to listening.
I leveled my cleric then geared him out entirely for all end game content with right around 40k AD.
That is broken.
Feels better way it is now IMO. Gives more incentive to earn gear. i could have done this before, but seemed silly when its just sitting there for pennies.
No you can't explain it. Because it is not a good thing. Was never a good thing. It has hurt the in game economy and driven lots of players with limited time to leave, and has increasingly given Neverwinter bad press in game reviews. None of that is a good thing. The fact that the average gamer with limited time and limited funds to drop in the game cannot afford to equip themselves well enough to survive even the most basic t1 dungeon is not a good thing. the fact that only those that were able to use exploits and drive the prices up on items or those with thousands of USD to burn can afford to buy gear now, and effectively control the game economy is NOT a good thing.
Both guild I belonged to were comprised of college students, working parents, and working young people. over 3/4ths of both guilds left the game since these went into effect because there's very little point to the game. they can never survive the end game content because the way the game is designed, you have to already have good t1 gear to survive the dungeons required to get the t2 gear and even then it is virtually impossible to find a party because all the exploiters want you to have 12-14k gear scores to run the t1 dungeons, and party leaders on even fully random queues often check and kick those with gear scores under 12k.
Those that remain in those guilds are either the role players that have decided to just give up on the endgame content or those like me that had at least one char make it though and struggle to sell salvage or whatever for MONTHS to get ONE single piece of gear for our alts. MONTHS. Not days or weeks like in a healthy economy but MONTHS! If I am lucky I can afford to get a good armor for my gf by november. More realistically it will be January.
Please explain how any of this is good for the common gamer. Oh I am sure it is great for the exploiters and the rich. But for the rest of us? There is NOTHING good for the rest of us.
At no time could you equip a cleric for 40k. I know I have one. at the cheapest point for a full t1 set it was 120k. (Which is actually pretty healthy price.) it was about 400k to equip a decent t2 set. (again a HEALTHY price)
Cant read this massive wall of rage sorry.
sorry you are dead wrong.
I was buying my T2 pieces on my server for around 4k a piece due to market flooding.
I decided early i didnt want to roll a 4pc Miracle healers set. I wanted the 2+2 grand templar and beacon set. Was able to get all four pieces for peanuts.
40k AD got me full tier 2 set and weapon and off hand. All other pieces i bought with gold i saved up from leveling and the shirt and pants i made with mailsmithing.
Literally 25 gold, 40k AD and 1 dragon egg, got me 10.5 gearscore immediately after dinging 60. I have literally only run T1 on any character just for funsies or for a guildie.
Edit: I am not saying everyone had this experience. My opinion is that if its that simple to skip and entire tier of gear and an entire tier of dungeons something is broken. BoP fixes that. Sucks for all those yet to come i know, but still its a better system.
I totally disagree - this argues entirely for the game being driven by progression for loot. This is ultimately self defeating because you strip out all but the hardcore players the further along you progress.
Making theloot easy to get at this stage in the game means that you make the level 60 content accessable for the majority of your players, and skill can decide the rest, and the progression. The economy was broken not by the availability of the items but by bugs that were reported in Beta and Cryptic did nothing about. Making it easy to progressw encourages emergent gameplay and new ways of doing things - for example - your class balance issues mean that unless you get geared as a GWF, no one wants you in a PVE group because the quickest way to run a dungeon is with 2 or three CW, a rogue to tank the boss and an aggro magnet GF to AoE taunt the bewildering numbers of adds in most encounters.
By gearing appropriately I enjoyed dungeons more, was ble to take other lower level guildies through and still get the possibility of a reward at the end of the system to sell for AD or kit out another character slot I had. The AD allowed me to start ascending the frankly impossibly expensive tiers of Augmentation in the game which further drove my character progression. FOr longevity , particularly at the prices you're charging you'll need to foster emergent behaviour in this game, and not kill it.
This doesn't work because you've taken away the engine for creating AD in the community which was selling the items people want.
How the hell are they going to save up 200+ k AD per item if they can't sell the itrems they get that they don't need? It's a self defeating argument, people made money and spent money on lower priced products because they were readily available. If you remove the AD form the economy by reducing the drops and potential to sell more items then you add a disproportionate level of frustration to the game, and this is compounded by the fact that you have rediculously underpowered items for thins like 150 Celestial coins (150 days of play) when everyone is levelled to 60 in less than 5. You've created a game with fast controls, and fast levelling, you can't seriously expect that to suddenly throw the brakes on a level 60 is going to generate anything other than player frustration? tha balance is all wrong. It would even have been better just to keep the T1 all BoE so that the new 60s could at least get to an entry level stage in things.
no one with the AD you claim this wil be worth will spend it because they're the guys who have all the gear from before and who <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> the AH and dungeons fro everything they were worth. The new guys will take alot longer to get the gear, and thecontent isn't there to keep them interested if they can't access the dungeons to mess around in, or do PvP with reasonable gear.
And that's why the Need and Greed buttons need to be reworked.
The shame is we're back to it being only gear progress to drive it forward. It hink it's a real shame and that you're glossing over what is in fact a far larger negative impact.
I geared quickly and as a result of increased access to the game played more and have spent more. I still enjoy the game, but the reduced access and drive for BoP is Backward IMO.
I geared mine for under 50k AD as well - full T1 set plus epic weapon plus rings. That was on Mindflayer - maybe it wasn't as flooded on other shards. Here, a piece of T1 gear went for about 5-6k AD on average, 2k at the lowest (yes, below the current salvage amount). I don't think that's quite right.
couldn't agree more. BoP as I mentioned was a benefit for the old players who had gear, the AD stocked, and the items for sale.
it is insane a player who likes just one char having to wait like 10 days to buy a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> 240k AD item, when will this guy buy even a greater enchantment? if the purpose of bop was make it more fair for everybody, it was a big fail.
(ps I am pretty well geared, and so far the only thing i need would be would be exchange my radiants from 8 to 9,10, and my armor enchant, all rest including weapon enchant is mastered. and is till see how hard and dumb is to make AD now, imagine for new a player... forcing players to buy zen for more slots chars, or to buy zen in the market doesn't seen like a good approach really. come on don't be greedy cryptgames, 2 million players buying stuff here and there is well enough for you
who can do the high game dungeons? you? the end game gear players?, you missing the "new players side dude". and a game that is not attractive to new players and old players at the same time is faded to die, keep that in mind. and even so, doing dungeons now became gambling with BoP, you have to do it with the right people to share the AD profits, or you have to pray in CN for example drops something of your class so you can need and try to sell it. Malabog castle for example, only profit is from the craft items, nothing else because all rest is bop, and still it is a gamble. i got the crafted item only once in five runs.
but yeah, i would really agree if they worked on the need and greed buttons, someone mentioned about "BoP" on need only. that would make PERFECT sense. because, what is the point of need? when you really need the item and is willing to use it of course. if you dont need it, you are going to sell it right? so BoP on Need, and no BoP on greed would be amazing. for sure. But still don't like the BoP on chest. since the greed/need is a gamble, and sometimes the same person win everything, sometimes a unlucky person will do many runs and never get a good item for sell.
explain then how me and my guild have been doing less Dungeons now than before. Before patch we would pretty much do all kinds of dungeons, we would do gg. because everything had purpose.
now we dont do as much as before. the only few who do that, are the "dps" people on cn mc sometimes, and they dont include much not well geared people or (gwf) tankers like me. so for me and many other people, that idea of you didn't work very well, it had the opposite effect.
Market should be part of any game, it is part of the fun, be able to play with the economics of the game, be a seller, be a buyer.
this was not made for people work for their gear, because that was something we always HAD. now we have ONLY this, and market will die slowly everyday. and as i said, onc ei am done with the boons of sharandar, if until there nothing new attractive comes, the BoP is removed, or they fix what they did somehow, me and many friends wont have mood or reason to play anymore. do dailies and 3, 4 or more toons it is just forceful and stupid. i want to have fun, not "work" in game, makes sense?
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And then there's the pvp and gauntlgrym stuff, as well as the new fluff'n'stuff from Sharandar and the Summer Festival
True, the chests now offer blue gear too, as do the bosses.
Longer queue-times because nobody wants to do dungeons anymore is a good thing? Please explain.
So if an epic piece or armor drops from a boss, it's not BoP?
What's stopping people from flooding the market with the jewelry next? Nothing but the droprates. So imo it's the same thing as the gear, supply will eventually outgrow demand and all that stuff will sell for peanuts again.
I agree with you that the problem is overflooding, I'm just saying that this solution doesn't tackle the problem, it's just a frustrating delay to players and is a push to turn Zen into AD.
My main concern is how the average income for a casual player relates to the new cost of loot and it's availability. In the current setup it's already very hard to finish T2's in T1 gear and I reckon T1's will be too tough for blues. With less income and less items to spend it on, it will be that much harder to farm your own way into the necessary ADs.
I'm not saying it's impossible when properly balanced, but the current prices of everything (unbinding, transmuting and certain critical items such as wards only available through Zen or it's exchange into ADs) are too high in relation to what a casual gamer can grind.
The truth right here.
It sucks for now, but in 3 months nobody will remember it any other way and the game will be better for it.
nope - there was more to do - I ran dungeons every night , doing ones \i had no need of the gear from with people who did because of the fun factor adn teh excitement came partly because of the possibility of getting somethign to sell at the end.
The economy will right itself - the economy happened the way it did because the xploits were not limitted to ao coupleof players who could to everything and so were actually fair.
The exploitations, some of which were adding to the fun factor BTW actually were available to everyone and so not in fact exploits but part of the game.
Whether it was intended to work this way is another matter but as previously mentioned most of hte major exploits were reported in closed beta and nothing was done about them. The beauty of having an easy currency system is that it puts off the gold farmers, like you get flooding every other bloody MMO, and now presently we are faced with a rediculous system of useless gold in game, and there is only one reason to suppose that the devs want the value of AD to go up, and that is that you can't buy as much Zen and buck the overall sales plan. If AD are ubiquitous the value of Zen goes down and the business model starts to fail.
HOwever Manmy people I know intend now to not spend as much zen because their spending of zen was closely linked to theperception of fun which has been negatively challenged by these changes.
I want this game to succeed, I really enjoy playing it, and a great deal of that enjoyment came from bypassing the grind of levelling and focussing on skills and working as a team.
Happened to me yesterday. First it's the first boss that drops blue, than it's second who drops epic for the other class guy who needs it, then it's the final boss and he drops the epic for other class as well, and then I open my DD chest and get a blue item to vendor for 34 silver and a bunch of seals. Are you guys joking?
Far less people are running dungeons, and far less people are playing the game in general, so there's far less loot on the AH and the reality is it's not worth it to farm T2s on or off DDs. Experienced/geared players just farm CN all day, and that gets old. Which results in the only people running dungeons as new players/undergeared/inexperienced and they are just failing, and then quitting. This is a direct result of BOP change, as it happened before FF14 (which is such as crappy game but cryptic apologists will blame that instead of the broken BOP patch)
BOP was the worst change to a game ever.
Yea i disagree with this.
My guild is growing, the playerbase is growing from what i can see.
This is like Burger King seeing a decline in burger sales and postulating that the population of the world is declining to cause it.
Have you checked whether it's not just alts?
I looked on the map there is no population number displayed. Fact is that there is no way of knowing whether population is declining or not unless you work for cryptic. All of our thoughts are anecdotal BS.
I was only saying that my experience in game, in guild, in streaming runs contrary to your opinion.
Agree with the server merge comment.
Just press "change zone instance" button on your mini-map. There will be the list of instances for your current zone and their population.
Figured that would be where you were getting it from.
I suppose to draw any trends you would have to check several times a day/night on a regular basis and record the results over at least 4 weeks time.
Ill start keeping track on my server.
How long have you been tracking and what times of day do you normally play/check? What server are you on?
used to be 30+ instances of PE @ 150 each, now there's on average 6 and none are full. combined that with Sharandar #s since a lot of 60s are there and the numbers are down to 30% from before the BOP change.
You can tell the number of people running dungeons by zone/lfg spam and in addition by queueing with a GF as the queue system is coded to always build a party with a GF first for some reason.
Far less people are playing the game and far less people are running dungeons. those that are are newbs without gear or experience and are failing at them in dramatic fashion. I ran all-alt groups to finish gearing out my CW's HV set but heaven help anyone without guild/friends trying to run dungeons nowadays.
I would say that BOP will kill this game but it's already dealt the mortal blow. Enjoy the single player game that is the 3 days it takes to level from 1 to 60 because after that it's becoming a ghost town.
Surely the population numbers aren't down in the area you checked, Protector's Enclave (don't try and claim you have complied the numbers on every zone before and after), because people are spending time in the festival zone and Sharandar? There are a lot of people in Sharandar and the Festival zone.
BoP killed this game.