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Trickster Rogue Changes

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  • ladysylvialadysylvia Member Posts: 946 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    yerune wrote: »
    If you can dodge the GF's bull rush and frontline surge, you're a pretty decent dodger. Those encounters have almost no casting time, and once you're in it, you're dead. That's why I don't understand why you seem so reluctant to dodge when it comes to CoS.

    Damage resets after your dodge, and really, it does little damage the first few throws. After your dodge the TR has that many less knifes and has to start with pitiful damage again, never reaching the full 12 (or 8 next patch). CoS only does more damage when you sit idly by to take it all.

    GWF with sprint are faster, and you say you can kite those yet complain about the beefiness of TR's? If you can kite an unstoppable GWF, you can kite a TR for 5 seconds when he's in ItC.

    But don't get me wrong here, I do think CoS should drain stealth or have the TR show up as he would in melee range. Devs fixing the jump-attack is a very good thing too.

    I just really don't see why you single out the TR for it's 'OPness' while you claim no problems with the "Opness" of the GF and GWF. Those two classes do what you say the TR is doing to you far better, faster and harder. They only don't do it from stealth.

    I don't know why you write 'you are dead' if you only in that combo, you aren't dead. Not be me. Maybe you lose 1/3 of your Health, but not more, so how you can die with 3 Encounters?!
  • todesfaelletodesfaelle Member Posts: 1,370 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    ladysylvia wrote: »
    I don't know why you write 'you are dead' if you only in that combo, you aren't dead. Not be me. Maybe you lose 1/3 of your Health, but not more, so how you can die with 3 Encounters?!

    This typically happens when you're a TR, without stealth, playing against a decently-geared and competitive burst GF (the ones we frequently see in PVP). You get sucked into a permaprone ping pong game where the result is death. If you're a TR, and lose only 1/3rd of his HP when fighting these sort of GF's, I'd like to know what gear you're using because your setup is amazing.

    And I agree with Sneakyervin. Post-patch, the overall efficiency of CoS will be reduced by 1/3rd of its original effects. And that's huge. The overall rewards that CoS used to merit might be so low that people will consider using Duelist's Fury much more than Cloud of Steel as their 2nd at-will for PVP. DF can be easy to land when comboed with certain effects like Daze which DC's and CW's are vulnerable against, and ITC which GWF's and GF's tend to notice too late once you start the DF attacks. At that point I'm hoping there will be less complaints about TR's attacking while in Stealth.

    I know people are saying that TR's should not be able to deal that much damage while in range thanks to them being melee-centered strikers, I'm pretty sure that notion will change once the next paragon paths hit the game. We'll be getting a nice set of ranged skills and features that support ranged attacks which should be fun. I like the class feature that fling daggers to all opponents in a certain radius after using a daily. Would make a decent AoE combo with Whirlwind of Blades.
  • yeruneyerune Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    ladysylvia wrote: »
    I don't know why you write 'you are dead' if you only in that combo, you aren't dead. Not be me. Maybe you lose 1/3 of your Health, but not more, so how you can die with 3 Encounters?!

    Bull Rush, Frontline Surge and a nice daily such as Indomitable Strength or even Terrifying Impact. That's enough for a Conqueror to finish nearly anyone. Add a interrupt/stun to Lunging Strike for the Tactician and you got yourself a nice setup to play some Ping-Pong too.

    None of those powers require a target, so stealth is not a defense against it.

    If you're telling me you can't finish a TR off with that, you need to play more PvP, TR's will LOVE YOU!! :)
  • sneakyervinsneakyervin Member Posts: 101
    edited August 2013
    The overall rewards that CoS used to merit might be so low that people will consider using Duelist's Fury much more than Cloud of Steel as their 2nd at-will for PVP.

    Yep pretty much. I know for me, if I keep slotting CoS post patch, it wont be to kite people to death. I will use it as an opening barrage before going toe to toe with the enemy. Maybe take down their bubble, break down guard a bit, force a stressy player to waste a dodge or a DC to cast his AS. Or I will just slot it and use it as a finisher when people try to run off while low on life.
  • kingculexkingculex Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    This typically happens when you're a TR, without stealth, playing against a decently-geared and competitive burst GF (the ones we frequently see in PVP). You get sucked into a permaprone ping pong game where the result is death. If you're a TR, and lose only 1/3rd of his HP when fighting these sort of GF's, I'd like to know what gear you're using because your setup is amazing.

    And I agree with Sneakyervin. Post-patch, the overall efficiency of CoS will be reduced by 1/3rd of its original effects. And that's huge. The overall rewards that CoS used to merit might be so low that people will consider using Duelist's Fury much more than Cloud of Steel as their 2nd at-will for PVP. DF can be easy to land when comboed with certain effects like Daze which DC's and CW's are vulnerable against, and ITC which GWF's and GF's tend to notice too late once you start the DF attacks. At that point I'm hoping there will be less complaints about TR's attacking while in Stealth.

    I know people are saying that TR's should not be able to deal that much damage while in range thanks to them being melee-centered strikers, I'm pretty sure that notion will change once the next paragon paths hit the game. We'll be getting a nice set of ranged skills and features that support ranged attacks which should be fun. I like the class feature that fling daggers to all opponents in a certain radius after using a daily. Would make a decent AoE combo with Whirlwind of Blades.

    The only way to get the people to stop complaining is to destroy all four classes and make a single class. This will allow everyone to have the same abilities. But wait they will then complain about gear. This means all of the gear will have to be replaced with a single set for everyone that can be bought with gold. It will basically eliminate any variety in the game that can give people a slight edge. Every class has its advantages and disadvantages that players need to learn. To many people would rather complain and complain instead of learn how to fully utilize their class's advantages to compensate for the disadvantages. some are also unfortunately biased against a certain class and will find any reason to complain about that class. Hopefully the next paragon path will have stuff that has not been nerfed into the ground. You can count on the complainers complaining about it as well.
    Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.

    There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
  • nichivonichivo Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 83
    edited August 2013
    kingculex wrote: »
    The only way to get the people to stop complaining is to destroy all four classes and make a single class. This will allow everyone to have the same abilities. But wait they will then complain about gear. This means all of the gear will have to be replaced with a single set for everyone that can be bought with gold. It will basically eliminate any variety in the game that can give people a slight edge. Every class has its advantages and disadvantages that players need to learn. To many people would rather complain and complain instead of learn how to fully utilize their class's advantages to compensate for the disadvantages. some are also unfortunately biased against a certain class and will find any reason to complain about that class. Hopefully the next paragon path will have stuff that has not been nerfed into the ground. You can count on the complainers complaining about it as well.

    The sad truth of the matter is even if everyone was a carbon copy of everyone else in pvp. People would still complain! There literally is no way to stop whiners from complaining. No amount of nerfs will stop it. People are not only biased but suffer from grass is greener syndrome. The game is way more balanced than people are willing to admit. If the nerfs keep up it will not be. The only thing I would like to see them think about is maybe limiting tenebrous to 1 only. Other than that I play all 5 classes and can tell you it's not near as unbalanced as the whiners would like you to believe.

    When I pvp which is probably a lot more than the average, I am almost always in the top 3 regardless of which class I go in on, hell I have taken first quite often on every single class. This screams balance to me. However people who only play one or two classes will never see the forest for all the trees. Whiners are just going to whine no matter what.
  • danielztdanielzt Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 105 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    @ambisinisterr
    Stop whining and read this if your DC sux at pvp!

    http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?427911-The-PvP-itemization-that-worked-for-me&p=5609441&viewfull=1#post5609441

    (edit: today there is even a TR on the enemy's side who called my DC alt a "cheater")...

    There really is no need for TR nerf srsly...
  • ladysylvialadysylvia Member Posts: 946 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    yerune wrote: »
    Bull Rush, Frontline Surge and a nice daily such as Indomitable Strength or even Terrifying Impact. That's enough for a Conqueror to finish nearly anyone. Add a interrupt/stun to Lunging Strike for the Tactician and you got yourself a nice setup to play some Ping-Pong too.

    None of those powers require a target, so stealth is not a defense against it.

    If you're telling me you can't finish a TR off with that, you need to play more PvP, TR's will LOVE YOU!! :)

    Con here, Con there, but i'm not a Con! I'm a Protector. So now? How i can 3 Shot people with 3 Encounters by full health of them? Daily don't count.
  • vteasyvteasy Member Posts: 708 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Be nice to ambisinisterr. His class just got the ban hammer too. Not as agreeable when it happens to your class.
  • dascraymanedascraymane Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    "Lurker's Assault: This power now grants 15 / 20 / 25% bonus damage, down from 20 / 40 / 60%."

    The only word i can think of to describe this change is disgusting, absolutely disgusting.
    Noble, urchin, old or young, we're all the same performing the dance of death.
  • kantazo1kantazo1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Give thanks to all the whinnie crybabies PVP players who were complaining how tough to kill are the TRs and how not fair was the way they play.
    Seek and ye shall find. Yeshua
  • ciopenhauerciopenhauer Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    I don't see the need to whine in the General forum. I'm sure there's one dedicated to that in the Rogues forum. Also, you should be happy. The previous nerf was much worse.
  • mutantdemocracymutantdemocracy Member Posts: 497 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Previous nerf was worse. GWF and GF are getting a harder nerf.

    Be glad they only nerfed the bonus damage by a little over half.
  • jiglesjigles Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    kantazo1 wrote: »
    Give thanks to all the whinnie crybabies PVP players who were complaining how tough to kill are the TRs and how not fair was the way they play.

    U know whats the funniest thing in all this?! Even now with all the nerfs they wont still be able to kill good TR's... they gonna continuing crying on and on xD

    NOTE: Bring more nerfs... the nerfed i got the ashamed/embarassed you'll be everytime i kill you :)
    Collision - LVL 60 TR ○○○ ENYO - LVL 60 CW
  • yeruneyerune Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    ladysylvia wrote: »
    Con here, Con there, but i'm not a Con! I'm a Protector. So now? How i can 3 Shot people with 3 Encounters by full health of them? Daily don't count.

    That's why I said Conqueror and Tactician ;)

    And why wouldn't dailies count, you're still dead afterwards?
  • horatio112358horatio112358 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    This is total bull****. People complain cause they can't play their class properly and now my class gets seriously weakened. If a wizard gets beaten by a rouge; it is because they're a squishy and the rouges goal is to kill said squishies. The guardian is here to protect them. The rouge has less mobility than every other class, as the only decent at will it has, has a charge up. A wizard can out run a punisher class. So now if a wizard gets close to a rouge they can just outrun us with their infinite dodges. We have to stand still whilst we're attacking. Think about the updates. This is not a balance, this is a massacre. If you're going to take the only thing we have going for us (raw damage) at least work in the area we need most MOBILITY. Any class can outrun us. GG cryptic, you've made the rouge go from punisher to punching bag.

    Seriously, I don't mind this update, but please, just either give us more mobility or stop nerfing us.
  • macinaossamacinaossa Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 43
    edited August 2013
    This is total bull****. People complain cause they can't play their class properly and now my class gets seriously weakened. If a wizard gets beaten by a rouge; it is because they're a squishy and the rouges goal is to I'll said squishies. The guardian is here to protect them. The rouge has less mobility than every other class, as the only decent at will it has, has a charge up. A wizard can out run a punisher class. So now if a wizard gets close to a rouge they can just outrun us with their infinite dodges. We have to stand still whilst we're attacking. Think about the updates. This is not a balance, this is a massacre. If you're going to take the only thing we have going for us (raw damage) at least work in the area we need most MOBILITY. Any class can outrun us. GG cryptic, you've made the rouge to from punisher to punching bag.

    Seriously, I don't mind this update, but please, just either give us more mobility or stop nerfing us.

    Infinite dodge ? lol
  • linuxx39linuxx39 Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    when the nerfs were first announced I quit as my TR is my main. Well I see you made some adjustments but guess what..I moved on. Next time think before you post Devs.
  • kantazo1kantazo1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Trickster Rogue is Now Jester Rogue, what a shame, what a farce.
    Seek and ye shall find. Yeshua
  • kingculexkingculex Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Lurker's Assault: This power now grants 15 / 20 / 25% bonus damage, down from 20 / 40 / 60%.
    Lurker's Assault: This power now teleports the player to the targeted enemy, if an enemy is targeted.
    Lurker's Assault: This power can no longer be canceled by Disable effects.



    The nerf to Lurker's Assault damage sucks but it can now no longer be canceled and it even teleports you to an enemy....... Try running from us now! Granted deft strike teleported TRs already.... but still mwahahaha

    It looks like there are a ton of nerfs added into the module for all classes and not just the TR nerf. I should have looked closer for more nerfs. It looks like mainly the nerfs to the TRs got the most publicity.
    Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.

    There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
  • linuxx39linuxx39 Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    I would rather have the damage back...

    We have no dailies worth using anymore really.
  • kingculexkingculex Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    linuxx39 wrote: »
    I would rather have the damage back...

    We have no dailies worth using anymore really.

    All I can say is invest in Tenebrous. Cryptic will make money off of more people putting cash in the game to convert to zen to get tenebrous enchantments. Those are becoming more common lately in PVP. I may even respec to a more stealthy TR as well since everyone complained so much. I am just laughing at everyone who wanted TRs nerfed because it ends up every class got nerfed. Nerfs all around! Want to nerf TRs more? Well, your class might be nerfed along with TRs.
    Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.

    There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
  • piterdevriesdunepiterdevriesdune Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    I haven't played my rogue since the first announcement either, nor will I be until they get this game sorted out again.

    I absolutely love this game, but with all the weird balance changes going on, I no longer see it as worth any time.
    Good luck!

    Edit: For the record, I really only play DDs, and I couldn't give two shots of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about PVP balance.
  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 2,894 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Hi everyone,

    A few changes to the Rogue will be going to Preview with the next patch:

    At-Wills Depleting Stealth
    In the end, this change didn't really solve the issues that we wanted it to. There are still some exploitative ways to play the Rogue that we're looking at, but this change didn't end up solving the core issue and hurt normal (and creative) gameplay

    Hello crucial!

    Creative exploiters currently use bait and switch and shadow strike, along with impossible to catch when something gets wrong. Now I hope you should be able to work on actual fixes.
  • kingculexkingculex Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    diogene0 wrote: »
    Hello crucial!

    Creative exploiters currently use bait and switch and shadow strike, along with impossible to catch when something gets wrong. Now I hope you should be able to work on actual fixes.

    Oh you want more nerfs??? Ok, more bigger nerfs to every class. Using a class's defensive moves is now exploiting?? Ok, time to nerf unstoppable in GWFs and the GF's shield. The only way to really balance the game is to nerf ALL classes. The devs figured this out and there is nerfs for every class in the next module. TRs are not the only ones being nerfed.
    Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.

    There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
  • fresh0utlawfresh0utlaw Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    logically, if we can get all the classes nerfed tilled they become herp derp easy mode, it would technically become balanced, not only that but it will draw in more customers to the game because of it's easy mode derpness which is a good way in increasing it's player base and financial income. Crypic/PWI should follow blizzard's WoW model and cater towards the derp users considering they are the majority.

    Things I would recommend for Neverwinter

    1. Nerf all classes. This is probably the best way in balancing the game. If we can get all of the classes damage reduced it will make pvp last longer as you will no longer get one-shotted by attacks. Consider how the low level PvP is from 10-59, most 1v1 fights take time and its more interesting then a one-shot kill method like the level 60 pvp tier.

    2. By Nerfing all the classes, it will make new users have a better understanding of the game as well make it easier for them to get familiar with the class. For instances, I like the idea of taking away CoS Jump Attack to maintain mobility, it was actually hard to do for the majority of new users. Simple things that require multiple actions of buttons reduced to it's minimum is ideal for new users.

    3. We need more Lock boxes and cash shop items. For starters the Lock Boxes are a great way for increasing PWI/Cryptic's financial income, however that isn't the main point. The main point is that you can get Enchantments such as Tenebrous which is a nice way in gearing your Character especially for those who do not PvE for enchantments. I can see that Neverwinter is closely becoming a PvP focused game and so we should have more Cash Shop items to cater towards PvP.
  • fresh0utlawfresh0utlaw Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Hi everyone,

    A few changes to the Rogue will be going to Preview with the next patch:

    At-Wills Depleting Stealth
    In the end, this change didn't really solve the issues that we wanted it to. There are still some exploitative ways to play the Rogue that we're looking at, but this change didn't end up solving the core issue and hurt normal (and creative) gameplay. At-Will powers will no longer deplete your stealth.

    So the during development for the TR encounters. Bait and Switch refills stealth and Shadow Strike refills stealth, they weren't actually meant to be used together to maintain stealth, if you did use it.. it was actually a "Creative Exploit".

    However to maintain 100% uptime of stealth you would need Intelligence. Intelligence was definitly not recommended for Rogues so putting ability score points into Intelligences would also be considered as a "Creative Exploit".

    I think the best thing to do is nerf and dumb down the entire class so only one type of build is viable, that way all TR's can be the same and it will be easier to tweak and nerf for future updates and balancing
  • kingculexkingculex Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    So the during development for the TR encounters. Bait and Switch refills stealth and Shadow Strike refills stealth, they weren't actually meant to be used together to maintain stealth, if you did use it.. it was actually a "Creative Exploit".

    However to maintain 100% uptime of stealth you would need Intelligence. Intelligence was definitly not recommended for Rogues so putting ability score points into Intelligences would also be considered as a "Creative Exploit".

    I think the best thing to do is nerf and dumb down the entire class so only one type of build is viable, that way all TR's can be the same and it will be easier to tweak and nerf for future updates and balancing

    Sure do it to ALL classes and not just TRs that way it is balanced. I already suggested nerfing everything down or making everything the same. How do you know they were not meant to be used together? hmm You are just assuming. The devs would have made it to were they could not be used together if they were not meant to work together. Granted yeah the idea of intelligence helping stealth is a creative idea.
    Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.

    There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
  • percefuspercefus Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    I think the best thing to do is nerf and dumb down the entire class so only one type of build is viable, that way all TR's can be the same and it will be easier to tweak and nerf for future updates and balancing

    You are joking, correct ?
    image.php?type=sigpic&userid=45696675&dateline=1374083559
    A Proud Member Of THE 300 Guild - Tene's are nothing but P2W, Nerf or Remove please!
  • kingculexkingculex Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    percefus wrote: »
    You are joking, correct ?

    Probably not joking but it would have to be done to every class to ensure balance......
    Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.

    There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
This discussion has been closed.