Hmmm.. where are all these changes leading I wonder by role TRs are supposed to be melee Strikers, take away their ability to do large enough damage and..
1. Striker - The supposed role of a TR, but take away its ability to do damage and TRs don't qualify as Striker's anymore do they, so what exactly are TRs now.. See below.
2. Defender - As Defenders TRs have Impossible to Catch which lasts 5 seconds.. then will probably pop Stealth and leave his companions to their demise since he has no way of holding threat, not even damage.
A Halfling Rogue with 26 CHA, 21 DEX, 15 STR or 24 CHA, 24 DEX, 14 STR and all the Deflection Powers and Feats can get 30% base deflection add gear and probably get more, so that may count as something.. but again no apparent way to hold threat having little damage moreso without Combat Advantage.
3. Controller - As Controllers TRs don't have any hard CCs (Stun. Snare, Heavy Slow) in PVP and outside of Smoke Bomb (Luckily, dazed mobs are as good as stunned) for PVE have little else reliable to work with in PVE either. TRs also have a terrible suite of AOE Powers that aside from having terrible AOE damage.
4. Leader - Well.. TRs have Critical Teamwork which grants the entire party +5% Critical Damage!!
Not even going to compare TR with other Classes in their respective roles, I believe what the DEVs could do is bombard instances and PVP maps with unavoidable, undetectable (Except by TRs) and lethal traps that way TRs will have an actual role to play in the coming future.
Edit: Mistype.
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mctankypantsMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
This has been mentioned before. Not trying to take the wind out of your sails mind you.
I don't mind them tweaking the rogue, but if they are going to ruin permastealth builds, they better give rogues a FREE option to re-roll stats, as well as redistribute skill/feat points. Otherwise they will make a ton of accounts useless and cause people who have spent a ton of time making their character the way they want very frustrated to the point of quitting. I go back to school, as do most people, soon before this patch is released. If they don't give a free re-roll/redistribute option, I'll simply have to quit. I wont have time to raise another lv60 and get all the gears, ect., to enjoy the game the way I want to in my free time. I strongly hope they consider this if nerfing permastealth builds is their goal. Otherwise, they will probably lose a lot of players, myself included.
Here's a bit of my 2 cents as an avid player of the Rogue Class.
Based on what I've read about the complaints about TR's in Stealth, what particularly ticks people off is just one skill alone, which is Cloud of Steel. It has (or had) 12 charges and has a decent range, has a mechanic that increases damage per stack, and has a fairly quick animation time. People have been concerned about our ability to throw daggers in the safety of stealth and from a far range. So I have a few suggestions in mind that may fix this without harming our class mechanic. I'm not sure if these have been suggested already, but here it goes.
- Reduce Cloud of Steel's effective range to 40' - 30'.
- Remove the damage increase per stack mechanic and return the original charges back from 8 to 12. Even 10 will do.
- Increase the animation time of Cloud of Steel by 33% (1/3rd) of its original casting time.
The TR community is still shocked by the previously intended nerfs and it also made other classes worry about the security of their respective class builds. Nerfs can be inevitable at times as they are easier to implement. However something as drastic as changing how an class works should not be the way to go.
I personally am against nerfs. I'm all for buffs. It makes people happy. I personally think the CW class can use some buffs, and the DC is in dire need of them. I know this thread is all about the Trickster Rogue changes but I'll just drop them here since it has a higher chance of being read.
Suggested Control Wizard Buffs:
- Improve the Chill Mechanic. Make them last at least 1 - 2 seconds longer if it's possible. It can be a useful tool for controlling adds and people in PVP, however based on some interviews on CW's regarding why they do not like swearing by the Chill Mechanic, it doesn't last that long making it not too viable to build their character around on.
- Increase the potency of their Shield Spell's defensive buffs. CW's at this point in the game are fragile glass cannons. Some CW's stack defense for PVP, but as a class with no means to become immune to CC, it can be hard to recover once it starts raining CC's from other classes that are heavy on the CC in PVP. Having a significantly increased defense while under the effects of Shield will help address how fragile CW's are.
- Improve the Oppressor Tree. Some ways in which I believe this can be achieved are as follows.
Severe Reaction: Increase the chance from 15% to 20%.
Cold Infusion: Double the effects of this Feat. Making it 2/4/6/8/10% less damage dealt for opponents afflicted with Chill.
Glacial Movement: Make it so that Icy Terrain is also able to have a 25% chance to proc an extra stack of Chill.
Shattered Strike: Increase the Chill Stacks applied by Ice Storm from 5 - 6, giving more control capabilities and utility to the skill. A guaranteed maximized Chill Stack on a Daily will introduce a wide variety of CW builds that can stand toe to toe against other CC heavy classes like the GWF, GF and TR.
CW's so far are being relied upon for one thing, which is throwing mobs off cliffs. I find it disturbing that this leaves little room for CW's who'd like to explore further about how their class can be played in dungeons. By presenting a new way in which the CW can be played (without implementing a new Paragon Path), some improvements to the least played paragon feat tree, the Oppressor Tree, can entice people into speccing towards it since this tree is supposedly increasing the CW's Crowd Control potential.
Suggested Devoted Cleric Buffs:
- Remove Righteousness Mechanic. I find it strange for a class to have a built-in debuff for something they should be excelling at. If it's not possible to remove it entirely, it would be great if they could at least get a -20% reduction for this class debuff.
- Increase the potency of their DPS skills such as Daunting Light, Searing Light, Forgemaster's Flame by 10%.
- Increase the potency of Foresight by 1%. Giving them a total of 9% at rank 3.
I have never played a Devoted Cleric before, but I have been reading a lot in the Wiki. And quite frankly the entire class seems pretty underwhelming. There might be a lot of better suggestions out there for buffs towards this class, but I'll just lay down the ones in which I think may prove to be beneficial for the overall identity of the Devoted Cleric class.
That's all I can offer for my 2 cents regarding these recent changes for the TR class. It would also be great if by any chance we can determine what exactly it is the combat development team was trying to achieve by drastically changing our class mechanic.
Based on what I've read about the complaints about TR's in Stealth, what particularly ticks people off is just one skill alone, which is Cloud of Steel. It has (or had) 12 charges and has a decent range, has a mechanic that increases damage per stack, and has a fairly quick animation time. People have been concerned about our ability to throw daggers in the safety of stealth and from a far range.
Or just disable jump-throwing. Everybody is rooted when they attack, but jump-walking works extremely well with CoS.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Based on what I've read about the complaints about TR's in Stealth, what particularly ticks people off is just one skill alone, which is Cloud of Steel. It has (or had) 12 charges and has a decent range, has a mechanic that increases damage per stack, and has a fairly quick animation time. People have been concerned about our ability to throw daggers in the safety of stealth and from a far range. So I have a few suggestions in mind that may fix this without harming our class mechanic. I'm not sure if these have been suggested already, but here it goes.
- Reduce Cloud of Steel's effective range to 40' - 30'.
- Remove the damage increase per stack mechanic and return the original charges back from 8 to 12. Even 10 will do.
- Increase the animation time of Cloud of Steel by 33% (1/3rd) of its original casting time.
I never thought of that but that would work too. CoS from stealth is a low risk high reward attack. By lowering the range their risk for detection is much higher and as such would be better to me.
- Remove Righteousness Mechanic. I find it strange for a class to have a built-in debuff for something they should be excelling at. If it's not possible to remove it entirely, it would be great if they could at least get a -20% reduction for this class debuff.
- Increase the potency of their DPS skills such as Daunting Light, Searing Light, Forgemaster's Flame by 10%.
- Increase the potency of Foresight by 1%. Giving them a total of 9% at rank 3.
Despite the cries by many Devoted Clerics, Righteousness absolutely is not a problem and would not make a huge difference. The problem in PvP is that we are the only class without a proper defensive move to safe our own necks.
Rogues have ItC. GWF's have Unstoppable. GF's have Shield Block and various powers which prevent CC.
CW's also lack those insane personal defenses but make up for it with massive CC of their own.
DC's have next to nothing. Divine Sunburst is the only repel effect they have. Chains is nice but 100% useless against ranged enemies, rogues or GF's that use threatening rush. Our defense is to heal and if the enemy prevents us from gaining divinity by focusing on us we die before we can even attempt to heal ourselves or our allies.
The issue with the cleric isn't that it is unable to heal itself...
It's that it is CC'd or unable to CC it's enemies too much in order to maintain healing abilities. If clerics had a defense beyond healing (which relies on divinity that is mainly only available via offensive attacks) then they would be more viable.
But that's a separate issue from the rogue. I don't care about Lurker's Assault. I don't care if they are invisible. I don't care if they have tenebrous.
I care that they can safely attack me with CoS from stealth with no risk to themselves. No reliable way for me to retaliate. No way for me to prevent/dodge the damage. And as long as that remains true it'll be broken. Fix the CoS nonsense and I couldn't care less how much damage you do because I will run circles around rogues without the free shot CoS attacks.
Or just disable jump-throwing. Everybody is rooted when they attack, but jump-walking works extremely well with CoS.
True. I think the most recent patch notes in the preview shard mentioned that it was going to address this issue by resetting the momentum of Cloud of Steel after a jump. We have to be absolutely rooted to the ground in order to keep the stacks after that. I can't say for sure about how this will impact the playstyle of some TR builds since I never have managed to perfect the jump-throwing trick people do because of the awful latency here.
I never thought of that but that would work too. CoS from stealth is a low risk high reward attack. By lowering the range their risk for detection is much higher and as such would be better to me.
CoS in general has always been too powerful for the level in which we gain it due to its stacking mechanic and the rate in which they are activated. From my experience I believe the animation time for each dagger thrown is less than a second, around 0.5 or less for each dagger thrown. We have 12 charges but the speed in which each dagger is thrown and the 60' range turns this skill into an inescapable death trap of an ability. People won't be able to run or dodge fast enough in order to get out of its effective area of range, and this allows some of us who use 7x Greater Tenebrous to proc it from afar, without risking detection; whether they be permastealth or not.
However CoS by itself isn't all that dangerous in my opinion. But CoS paired with Lurkers Assault, Perfect Vorpal, Greater Plague Fire, Greater Tenebrous, is what creates the problem which leads people to usually associate these with TR's who use Stealth. Increasing the factor of risk for CoS (and not its overall efficacy) will help address this "balance" issue without fully murdering the skill or our class mechanic. Even if the stacks are reduced to 8, it still will not stop people from using it to proc their hard-earned Greater Tenebrous Enchantments from a safe distance.
These however are just one guy's two cents, which hopefully gets read by a dev one of these days.
Despite the cries by many Devoted Clerics, Righteousness absolutely is not a problem and would not make a huge difference. The problem in PvP is that we are the only class without a proper defensive move to safe our own necks.
The cleric also underperforms in PvE, espcacially in group PvE at which they should excel as leader class. Protection spells are so weak that a cleric in average causal groups is usually constrained to use 3/3 encounter slots and 2/2 dailies for healing powers.
It is very difficult to compare the efficiency of cleric with fighter or rogues, their role is just to different. However, wizards as controllers intersects with the cleric as leader in protection of the group.
If a CW is conenctrate on their role in using controll spells to protect the group from rushing enemies, at the same time the CWs also contribute to the group DPS by a large amount.
In contrast, if a cleric focus on his role as a leader to use protection spells and healing to reduce incoming damage, he does next to no damage and mostly contribute the least to the group DPS. The reason is that there is only one leader type power that actually give protection/heal and damage which is sunburst. On the other hand, healing is not that strong in Neverwinter so that it would justify the huge amount of damage difference of the cleric compared to other classes. In fact, if you compare healing with damage dealed by a CW in an average run it is less then half of the score. And this damage score of a CW don't count in the damage that was avoided by controll spells of the CW.
True. I think the most recent patch notes in the preview shard mentioned that it was going to address this issue by resetting the momentum of Cloud of Steel after a jump. We have to be absolutely rooted to the ground in order to keep the stacks after that. I can't say for sure about how this will impact the playstyle of some TR builds since I never have managed to perfect the jump-throwing trick people do because of the awful latency here.
That's good to hear. It makes the TR the only one who can attack and move, coupled with stealth that's just too nasty.
However CoS by itself isn't all that dangerous in my opinion. But CoS paired with Lurkers Assault, Perfect Vorpal, Greater Plague Fire, Greater Tenebrous, is what creates the problem which leads people to usually associate these with TR's who use Stealth. Increasing the factor of risk for CoS (and not its overall efficacy) will help address this "balance" issue without fully murdering the skill or our class mechanic. Even if the stacks are reduced to 8, it still will not stop people from using it to proc their hard-earned Greater Tenebrous Enchantments from a safe distance.
Procrate may be the issue, but I've seen too many people just standing there, wondering why their health is getting low, not dodging.
In the end though, every class gets to one-two-shot, it's just the TR's get to do it unseen.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Procrate may be the issue, but I've seen too many people just standing there, wondering why their health is getting low, not dodging.
If there wasn't an auto aim you'd be correct.
Since CoS Auto Aims it's more or less guaranteed hits and long as you keep the cursor semi near the person and the only way to "dodge" is to use stamina.
Sure Wizard and Cleric At Wills Auto Aim too but the damage doesn't increase to being 5K hits after armor is considered. Sure you can dodge by using the actual dodge mechanic but that's just leaves you vulnerable to what are actually supposed to be the deadly attacks.
You wouldn't dodge a wizard's magic missile. You would dodge Ice Knife, Entanglement, Chill Strike, or encounter/daily powers.
The same goes for the cleric. Hammer of Fate, Break the Spirit, or FmF would be the main attacks you would want to dodge against a cleric if you're not simply using it for maneuverability to close gaps since the attacks are by in large weak.
With a rogue being forced to dodge 2 At Wills out of four in order to break the chain effects now leaves enemies less able to contend with the true issues in the rogue's arsenal: Lashing Blade, Smokebomb, Shocking Execution, Whirlwind of Blades, Dazing Strike, etc.
Those are the abilities that are the main threat. Those are the abilities we should be worried about dodging.
If there wasn't an auto aim you'd be correct.
Since CoS Auto Aims it's more or less guaranteed hits and long as you keep the cursor semi near the person and the only way to "dodge" is to use stamina.
Sure Wizard and Cleric At Wills Auto Aim too but the damage doesn't increase to being 5K hits after armor is considered. Sure you can dodge by using the actual dodge mechanic but that's just leaves you vulnerable to what are actually supposed to be the deadly attacks.
You wouldn't dodge a wizard's magic missile. You would dodge Ice Knife, Entanglement, Chill Strike, or encounter/daily powers.
The same goes for the cleric. Hammer of Fate, Break the Spirit, or FmF would be the main attacks you would want to dodge against a cleric if you're not simply using it for maneuverability to close gaps since the attacks are by in large weak.
With a rogue being forced to dodge 2 At Wills out of four in order to break the chain effects now leaves enemies less able to contend with the true issues in the rogue's arsenal: Lashing Blade, Smokebomb, Shocking Execution, Whirlwind of Blades, Dazing Strike, etc.
Those are the abilities that are the main threat. Those are the abilities we should be worried about dodging.
You are hung up on how CoS worked and not how it will work after patch. And how on earth can you say Whirlwind of Blades or Shocking Execution for that matter are the main threats? You claim those are threats aswell as DS, SB and LB. How do you fit them all into a deadly stealth spec? Well you dont, so you are far off the subject that is the main focal point, stealth spec+CoS+LA i.e the thing that has been nerfed.
If you slot LA you most likely wont have neither WoB or SE, since they are both trash compared to Bloodbath. LA will still be better post patch than SE or WoB. I doubt there is a TR that runs without BB in PvP, it's one of the best 1vs1 tools you have.
You still refuse to work with what you have to counter the post patch CoS, you wont have to dodge it, since it's 8 charges that can easily be avoided/mitigated through other things. HW is one option to pretty much negate the effect of CoS. It deals 66% of it's former damage. And as I said before, even with LA and stealth active, it will deal less damage post-patch than what it did on it's own pre-patch.
Quick example.
Live CoS: 300*12 =3600
Live Cos+LA: 300*160% = 480, 480*12 = 5760
Test Cos: 300*8 = 2400
Test CoS+LA: 300*125% = 375, 375*8 = 3000
[Test CoS] deals 67% of [Live CoS] damage.
[Test CoS+LA] deals 83% of [Live CoS] damage.
[Test CoS+LA] deals 52% of [Live CoS+LA] damage.
This is good. The change to lurkers was a bad idea, as it favored high crit builds which is a combination of feats, stats (dex, which not all rogues have maxed) and gear. Obviously (or not???) it would be useless to a lower dex rogue with average or below crit (under 35% chance) and a big pain to acquire new gear and enchants for crit and a total reroll if your race caused your dex to be low.
The perma stealth build issue is much easier to fix. Just change the stealth bar to give combat advantage for the duration, and let the first attack from stealth remove only the invisibility portion while keeping the CA bonus. That should fix the pvp crying and whining and pve exploits (bosskills without taking any hits etc) while keeping most of the important features (able to sneak so long as you do not attack, and damage bonus which is the important part).
Also, consider making some of the other daily skills a better choice. The reason we all use lurkers is that most of the others are very weak.
My mage 11.5K Gear Score full T2 with 21 000 life.
Spell controls, shield and teleports are completely ineffective and useless, i just have to watch me die.
- New One Shot rogue records DPS: 34k !!!
- Rogue low stuff 2 shoot :
- Warrior def 3 shoot :
- Warrior def hits as hard as I (15K) :
Result :
- Rogue : dps very high, resist dps and controle very high (immune or stealth)
- Warrior def : dps high, resist dps and controle very high (shield total immune)
- Mage : dps high, resist dps and controle very low
I do not know if this is incompetence or whether it is for marketing reasons, but those who see this as a good pvp, I ask them to do something else.
If Cryptic needs experienced staff, I can work for you, because the ship continues to sink. Wake up ...
Cordially. (translation google)
PS : The screens as I mercilessly, then do not bother to say that these are exceptional circumstances.
With a rogue being forced to dodge 2 At Wills out of four in order to break the chain effects now leaves enemies less able to contend with the true issues in the rogue's arsenal: Lashing Blade, Smokebomb, Shocking Execution, Whirlwind of Blades, Dazing Strike, etc.
Those are the abilities that are the main threat. Those are the abilities we should be worried about dodging.
One dodge resets the damage timer, I really don't understand why you're happy to dodge and kite every other class (as you've stated in earlier posts) but always seem to get hung up when it's about TR's.
My mage 11.5K Gear Score full T2 with 21 000 life.
Spell controls, shield and teleports are completely ineffective and useless, i just have to watch me die.
- New One Shot rogue records DPS: 34k !!!
- Rogue 2 shoot :
- Warrior def 3 shoot :
- Warrior def hits as hard as I (15K) :
Showed me that everything Their errors are taking damage lol
my dear
you need fingers
control
and long dash
That you have but not the know how to use
19secs cooldown lash blade ... 1 dash = 1 Dogde
need control? we are there
Ex: Noodle / Alt / Raw.... look CWs.
MassiveDMG TR 60 Half-Orc
Fandangos TR 60 Half-Orc
Massivewall GF 60 Human
Massive GWF 60 Human
control, and long dash ? Useless against these immune or untouchable classes.
As for the dodges of mages, they are limited, and he died so soon after that it is not necessary to hope to expect something else.
I exchange my dodges pleasure against your immune / stealth or warrior's shield with pleasure!
You do not know this game at the highest level, avoid misinformation thank you.
Dodge Mage
- Does not allow the mage to damage during this time.
- Prevents damage and checks only if done at the right time.
- There is no limit on the duration.
- it kills combining several skills that require time
Immune / stealth rogue:
- Allows the rogue to damage during this time.
- Always avoid damage and controls
- Is almost unlimited if the combined length of several skills (enough to kill the opponent before his huge dps benefits)
- it kills in 1 or 2 shots or very very quickly
Shiled War
- Always avoid damage and controls
- Is of unlimited duration
- it kills in 3 shots.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
One dodge resets the damage timer, I really don't understand why you're happy to dodge and kite every other class (as you've stated in earlier posts) but always seem to get hung up when it's about TR's.
Because in order to dodge GF's and GWF's I merely have to out maneuver them.
For CW's and Wizards I have to dodge their encounter powers and can always retaliate against them while they use the far lower damage basic attacks.
I can out maneuver rogues in melee range...but ItC seriously inhibits my repertoire. I can't dodge CoS of their At-Will attacks which hurt far, far more than CW's and DC's At-Wills and their far, far more deadly Encounter Attacks. There's simply too much to dodge in order for that "counter" to be viable. Would you suggest people dodge magic missile? That's what you're telling me to do. You'll LIMIT the damage by dodging but it's a lost cause battle against a class with far more defensive powers and offensive potential than any other class.
Every other class can be dodged and out-maneuvered by careful dodges and positioning. Rogues simply have too many high offensive and defensive abilities for other classes to maneuver against them.
Heck that could be part of the problem: the rogue all around has no direct sense of direction.
Are they supposed to be the ultimate damage class? The ultimate maneuverable class? A melee class or a ranged class? A stealth class or defensive class?
It's everything short of a healing class. No matter what it is not balanced how it is or with the proposed changes so long as they can remain invulnerable close up and able to attack from stealth at a range. The class could be nerfed in so many other ways which would make it more in line...but doing that would damage the class far more than simply eliminating the ItC, Stealth and CoS combo.
Because in order to dodge GF's and GWF's I merely have to out maneuver them.
For CW's and Wizards I have to dodge their encounter powers and can always retaliate against them while they use the far lower damage basic attacks.
I can out maneuver rogues in melee range...but ItC seriously inhibits my repertoire. I can't dodge CoS of their At-Will attacks which hurt far, far more than CW's and DC's At-Wills and their far, far more deadly Encounter Attacks. There's simply too much to dodge in order for that "counter" to be viable. Would you suggest people dodge magic missile? That's what you're telling me to do. You'll LIMIT the damage by dodging but it's a lost cause battle against a class with far more defensive powers and offensive potential than any other class.
Every other class can be dodged and out-maneuvered by careful dodges and positioning. Rogues simply have too many high offensive and defensive abilities for other classes to maneuver against them.
Heck that could be part of the problem: the rogue all around has no direct sense of direction.
Are the supposed to be the ultimate damage class? The ultimate maneuverable class? A melee class or a ranged class? A stealth class or defensive class?
It's everything short of a healing class. No matter what it is not balanced how it is or with the proposed changes so long as they can remain invulnerable close up and able to attack from stealth at a range. The class could be nerfed in so many other ways which would make it more in line...but doing that would damage the class far more than simply eliminating the CoS, Stealth and CoS combo.
MassiveDMG TR 60 Half-Orc
Fandangos TR 60 Half-Orc
Massivewall GF 60 Human
Massive GWF 60 Human
ANALYZING YOUR ONLY SHIFT / Dogde
AGAINST ALL THE BENEFITS OF THE ROGUE
REALLY LOST TIME
but I wonder if your CW has no other skills
because if you are playing with Dogde
as you kill something and how to get lvl 60?
Not only will your repeat posts like flood, but in addition you actually amalgams. The Pvp game is already twisted, if more members of the forum are doing so, it may still get worse for the future of this game is not won!
I mean dogge because you started to talk about it, no point in trying to turn what others say to give reason.
Now for the benefits that you mentioned the mage, I repeat what I said in the previous page, since in addition, you do not even read what i wrote :
Because in order to dodge GF's and GWF's I merely have to out maneuver them.
For CW's and Wizards I have to dodge their encounter powers and can always retaliate against them while they use the far lower damage basic attacks.
I can out maneuver rogues in melee range...but ItC seriously inhibits my repertoire. I can't dodge CoS of their At-Will attacks which hurt far, far more than CW's and DC's At-Wills and their far, far more deadly Encounter Attacks. There's simply too much to dodge in order for that "counter" to be viable. Would you suggest people dodge magic missile? That's what you're telling me to do. You'll LIMIT the damage by dodging but it's a lost cause battle against a class with far more defensive powers and offensive potential than any other class.
If you can dodge the GF's bull rush and frontline surge, you're a pretty decent dodger. Those encounters have almost no casting time, and once you're in it, you're dead. That's why I don't understand why you seem so reluctant to dodge when it comes to CoS.
Damage resets after your dodge, and really, it does little damage the first few throws. After your dodge the TR has that many less knifes and has to start with pitiful damage again, never reaching the full 12 (or 8 next patch). CoS only does more damage when you sit idly by to take it all.
GWF with sprint are faster, and you say you can kite those yet complain about the beefiness of TR's? If you can kite an unstoppable GWF, you can kite a TR for 5 seconds when he's in ItC.
But don't get me wrong here, I do think CoS should drain stealth or have the TR show up as he would in melee range. Devs fixing the jump-attack is a very good thing too.
I just really don't see why you single out the TR for it's 'OPness' while you claim no problems with the "Opness" of the GF and GWF. Those two classes do what you say the TR is doing to you far better, faster and harder. They only don't do it from stealth.
The class could be nerfed in so many other ways which would make it more in line...but doing that would damage the class far more than simply eliminating the ItC, Stealth and CoS combo.
CoS has been taken care off. You are still stuck on the old function and you are discussing it on the PTR forum, you as a mod should know this is the wrong forum to discuss live skills.
Read the numbers I posted earlier if you dont believe me that it's taken care off.
You started to argue about stealth+CoS was OP, now you throw more skills into the argument, even though we havent seen yet where TRs are at post patch. I'm so very glad you arent a dev at Cryptic.
Comments
1. Striker - The supposed role of a TR, but take away its ability to do damage and TRs don't qualify as Striker's anymore do they, so what exactly are TRs now.. See below.
2. Defender - As Defenders TRs have Impossible to Catch which lasts 5 seconds.. then will probably pop Stealth and leave his companions to their demise since he has no way of holding threat, not even damage.
A Halfling Rogue with 26 CHA, 21 DEX, 15 STR or 24 CHA, 24 DEX, 14 STR and all the Deflection Powers and Feats can get 30% base deflection add gear and probably get more, so that may count as something.. but again no apparent way to hold threat having little damage moreso without Combat Advantage.
3. Controller - As Controllers TRs don't have any hard CCs (Stun. Snare, Heavy Slow) in PVP and outside of Smoke Bomb (Luckily, dazed mobs are as good as stunned) for PVE have little else reliable to work with in PVE either. TRs also have a terrible suite of AOE Powers that aside from having terrible AOE damage.
4. Leader - Well.. TRs have Critical Teamwork which grants the entire party +5% Critical Damage!!
Not even going to compare TR with other Classes in their respective roles, I believe what the DEVs could do is bombard instances and PVP maps with unavoidable, undetectable (Except by TRs) and lethal traps that way TRs will have an actual role to play in the coming future.
Edit: Mistype.
Based on what I've read about the complaints about TR's in Stealth, what particularly ticks people off is just one skill alone, which is Cloud of Steel. It has (or had) 12 charges and has a decent range, has a mechanic that increases damage per stack, and has a fairly quick animation time. People have been concerned about our ability to throw daggers in the safety of stealth and from a far range. So I have a few suggestions in mind that may fix this without harming our class mechanic. I'm not sure if these have been suggested already, but here it goes.
- Reduce Cloud of Steel's effective range to 40' - 30'.
- Remove the damage increase per stack mechanic and return the original charges back from 8 to 12. Even 10 will do.
- Increase the animation time of Cloud of Steel by 33% (1/3rd) of its original casting time.
The TR community is still shocked by the previously intended nerfs and it also made other classes worry about the security of their respective class builds. Nerfs can be inevitable at times as they are easier to implement. However something as drastic as changing how an class works should not be the way to go.
I personally am against nerfs. I'm all for buffs. It makes people happy. I personally think the CW class can use some buffs, and the DC is in dire need of them. I know this thread is all about the Trickster Rogue changes but I'll just drop them here since it has a higher chance of being read.
Suggested Control Wizard Buffs:
- Improve the Chill Mechanic. Make them last at least 1 - 2 seconds longer if it's possible. It can be a useful tool for controlling adds and people in PVP, however based on some interviews on CW's regarding why they do not like swearing by the Chill Mechanic, it doesn't last that long making it not too viable to build their character around on.
- Increase the potency of their Shield Spell's defensive buffs. CW's at this point in the game are fragile glass cannons. Some CW's stack defense for PVP, but as a class with no means to become immune to CC, it can be hard to recover once it starts raining CC's from other classes that are heavy on the CC in PVP. Having a significantly increased defense while under the effects of Shield will help address how fragile CW's are.
- Improve the Oppressor Tree. Some ways in which I believe this can be achieved are as follows.
CW's so far are being relied upon for one thing, which is throwing mobs off cliffs. I find it disturbing that this leaves little room for CW's who'd like to explore further about how their class can be played in dungeons. By presenting a new way in which the CW can be played (without implementing a new Paragon Path), some improvements to the least played paragon feat tree, the Oppressor Tree, can entice people into speccing towards it since this tree is supposedly increasing the CW's Crowd Control potential.
Suggested Devoted Cleric Buffs:
- Remove Righteousness Mechanic. I find it strange for a class to have a built-in debuff for something they should be excelling at. If it's not possible to remove it entirely, it would be great if they could at least get a -20% reduction for this class debuff.
- Increase the potency of their DPS skills such as Daunting Light, Searing Light, Forgemaster's Flame by 10%.
- Increase the potency of Foresight by 1%. Giving them a total of 9% at rank 3.
I have never played a Devoted Cleric before, but I have been reading a lot in the Wiki. And quite frankly the entire class seems pretty underwhelming. There might be a lot of better suggestions out there for buffs towards this class, but I'll just lay down the ones in which I think may prove to be beneficial for the overall identity of the Devoted Cleric class.
That's all I can offer for my 2 cents regarding these recent changes for the TR class. It would also be great if by any chance we can determine what exactly it is the combat development team was trying to achieve by drastically changing our class mechanic.
Much love and support from an avid TR player!
Or just disable jump-throwing. Everybody is rooted when they attack, but jump-walking works extremely well with CoS.
I never thought of that but that would work too. CoS from stealth is a low risk high reward attack. By lowering the range their risk for detection is much higher and as such would be better to me.
Despite the cries by many Devoted Clerics, Righteousness absolutely is not a problem and would not make a huge difference. The problem in PvP is that we are the only class without a proper defensive move to safe our own necks.
Rogues have ItC. GWF's have Unstoppable. GF's have Shield Block and various powers which prevent CC.
CW's also lack those insane personal defenses but make up for it with massive CC of their own.
DC's have next to nothing. Divine Sunburst is the only repel effect they have. Chains is nice but 100% useless against ranged enemies, rogues or GF's that use threatening rush. Our defense is to heal and if the enemy prevents us from gaining divinity by focusing on us we die before we can even attempt to heal ourselves or our allies.
The issue with the cleric isn't that it is unable to heal itself...
It's that it is CC'd or unable to CC it's enemies too much in order to maintain healing abilities. If clerics had a defense beyond healing (which relies on divinity that is mainly only available via offensive attacks) then they would be more viable.
But that's a separate issue from the rogue. I don't care about Lurker's Assault. I don't care if they are invisible. I don't care if they have tenebrous.
I care that they can safely attack me with CoS from stealth with no risk to themselves. No reliable way for me to retaliate. No way for me to prevent/dodge the damage. And as long as that remains true it'll be broken. Fix the CoS nonsense and I couldn't care less how much damage you do because I will run circles around rogues without the free shot CoS attacks.
True. I think the most recent patch notes in the preview shard mentioned that it was going to address this issue by resetting the momentum of Cloud of Steel after a jump. We have to be absolutely rooted to the ground in order to keep the stacks after that. I can't say for sure about how this will impact the playstyle of some TR builds since I never have managed to perfect the jump-throwing trick people do because of the awful latency here.
CoS in general has always been too powerful for the level in which we gain it due to its stacking mechanic and the rate in which they are activated. From my experience I believe the animation time for each dagger thrown is less than a second, around 0.5 or less for each dagger thrown. We have 12 charges but the speed in which each dagger is thrown and the 60' range turns this skill into an inescapable death trap of an ability. People won't be able to run or dodge fast enough in order to get out of its effective area of range, and this allows some of us who use 7x Greater Tenebrous to proc it from afar, without risking detection; whether they be permastealth or not.
However CoS by itself isn't all that dangerous in my opinion. But CoS paired with Lurkers Assault, Perfect Vorpal, Greater Plague Fire, Greater Tenebrous, is what creates the problem which leads people to usually associate these with TR's who use Stealth. Increasing the factor of risk for CoS (and not its overall efficacy) will help address this "balance" issue without fully murdering the skill or our class mechanic. Even if the stacks are reduced to 8, it still will not stop people from using it to proc their hard-earned Greater Tenebrous Enchantments from a safe distance.
These however are just one guy's two cents, which hopefully gets read by a dev one of these days.
The cleric also underperforms in PvE, espcacially in group PvE at which they should excel as leader class. Protection spells are so weak that a cleric in average causal groups is usually constrained to use 3/3 encounter slots and 2/2 dailies for healing powers.
It is very difficult to compare the efficiency of cleric with fighter or rogues, their role is just to different. However, wizards as controllers intersects with the cleric as leader in protection of the group.
If a CW is conenctrate on their role in using controll spells to protect the group from rushing enemies, at the same time the CWs also contribute to the group DPS by a large amount.
In contrast, if a cleric focus on his role as a leader to use protection spells and healing to reduce incoming damage, he does next to no damage and mostly contribute the least to the group DPS. The reason is that there is only one leader type power that actually give protection/heal and damage which is sunburst. On the other hand, healing is not that strong in Neverwinter so that it would justify the huge amount of damage difference of the cleric compared to other classes. In fact, if you compare healing with damage dealed by a CW in an average run it is less then half of the score. And this damage score of a CW don't count in the damage that was avoided by controll spells of the CW.
That's good to hear. It makes the TR the only one who can attack and move, coupled with stealth that's just too nasty.
Procrate may be the issue, but I've seen too many people just standing there, wondering why their health is getting low, not dodging.
In the end though, every class gets to one-two-shot, it's just the TR's get to do it unseen.
If there wasn't an auto aim you'd be correct.
Since CoS Auto Aims it's more or less guaranteed hits and long as you keep the cursor semi near the person and the only way to "dodge" is to use stamina.
Sure Wizard and Cleric At Wills Auto Aim too but the damage doesn't increase to being 5K hits after armor is considered. Sure you can dodge by using the actual dodge mechanic but that's just leaves you vulnerable to what are actually supposed to be the deadly attacks.
You wouldn't dodge a wizard's magic missile. You would dodge Ice Knife, Entanglement, Chill Strike, or encounter/daily powers.
The same goes for the cleric. Hammer of Fate, Break the Spirit, or FmF would be the main attacks you would want to dodge against a cleric if you're not simply using it for maneuverability to close gaps since the attacks are by in large weak.
With a rogue being forced to dodge 2 At Wills out of four in order to break the chain effects now leaves enemies less able to contend with the true issues in the rogue's arsenal: Lashing Blade, Smokebomb, Shocking Execution, Whirlwind of Blades, Dazing Strike, etc.
Those are the abilities that are the main threat. Those are the abilities we should be worried about dodging.
You are hung up on how CoS worked and not how it will work after patch. And how on earth can you say Whirlwind of Blades or Shocking Execution for that matter are the main threats? You claim those are threats aswell as DS, SB and LB. How do you fit them all into a deadly stealth spec? Well you dont, so you are far off the subject that is the main focal point, stealth spec+CoS+LA i.e the thing that has been nerfed.
If you slot LA you most likely wont have neither WoB or SE, since they are both trash compared to Bloodbath. LA will still be better post patch than SE or WoB. I doubt there is a TR that runs without BB in PvP, it's one of the best 1vs1 tools you have.
You still refuse to work with what you have to counter the post patch CoS, you wont have to dodge it, since it's 8 charges that can easily be avoided/mitigated through other things. HW is one option to pretty much negate the effect of CoS. It deals 66% of it's former damage. And as I said before, even with LA and stealth active, it will deal less damage post-patch than what it did on it's own pre-patch.
Quick example.
Live CoS: 300*12 =3600
Live Cos+LA: 300*160% = 480, 480*12 = 5760
Test Cos: 300*8 = 2400
Test CoS+LA: 300*125% = 375, 375*8 = 3000
[Test CoS] deals 67% of [Live CoS] damage.
[Test CoS+LA] deals 83% of [Live CoS] damage.
[Test CoS+LA] deals 52% of [Live CoS+LA] damage.
The perma stealth build issue is much easier to fix. Just change the stealth bar to give combat advantage for the duration, and let the first attack from stealth remove only the invisibility portion while keeping the CA bonus. That should fix the pvp crying and whining and pve exploits (bosskills without taking any hits etc) while keeping most of the important features (able to sneak so long as you do not attack, and damage bonus which is the important part).
Also, consider making some of the other daily skills a better choice. The reason we all use lurkers is that most of the others are very weak.
Ridiculous balancing Pvp.
My mage 11.5K Gear Score full T2 with 21 000 life.
Spell controls, shield and teleports are completely ineffective and useless, i just have to watch me die.
- New One Shot rogue records DPS: 34k !!!
- Rogue low stuff 2 shoot :
- Warrior def 3 shoot :
- Warrior def hits as hard as I (15K) :
Result :
- Rogue : dps very high, resist dps and controle very high (immune or stealth)
- Warrior def : dps high, resist dps and controle very high (shield total immune)
- Mage : dps high, resist dps and controle very low
Find the error !
If Cryptic needs experienced staff, I can work for you, because the ship continues to sink. Wake up ...
Cordially. (translation google)
PS : The screens as I mercilessly, then do not bother to say that these are exceptional circumstances.
One dodge resets the damage timer, I really don't understand why you're happy to dodge and kite every other class (as you've stated in earlier posts) but always seem to get hung up when it's about TR's.
Showed me that everything Their errors are taking damage lol
my dear
you need fingers
control
and long dash
That you have but not the know how to use
19secs cooldown lash blade ... 1 dash = 1 Dogde
need control? we are there
Ex: Noodle / Alt / Raw.... look CWs.
Fandangos TR 60 Half-Orc
Massivewall GF 60 Human
Massive GWF 60 Human
Server: Dragon
LA = Daily no one has it all the time.
my hits.
I spend studying my class team
to do this
there comes you cry and you want to change?
nobody is invincible in this game
I know very good and strong chars.
GWF - Drey and Steroidz
GF - Judge and Steroidz
CW - Dreyfurss, Goku, Noodle, Alt
TR-Cheetos, Merch
you need to spend a little of your time to think about how to build your character.
I'm not perma rogue .. I'm FULLDMG rogue. then my ability to survive is limited ...
Fandangos TR 60 Half-Orc
Massivewall GF 60 Human
Massive GWF 60 Human
Server: Dragon
As for the dodges of mages, they are limited, and he died so soon after that it is not necessary to hope to expect something else.
I exchange my dodges pleasure against your immune / stealth or warrior's shield with pleasure!
You do not know this game at the highest level, avoid misinformation thank you.
impossible to catch? 3 secs? 17 secs cooldown?
makes me laugh
a lot of crying, a few fingers?
Waiting for the right time to beat.
fight with the char that
with unstoppable or impossible.
fight at intervals
cooldowns
I will not prolong this conversation
as I said before a lot of crying
and little study on classes
Fandangos TR 60 Half-Orc
Massivewall GF 60 Human
Massive GWF 60 Human
Server: Dragon
make one!
You want to fight from afar without exposing yourself? want to control, debuff?
look for the CW
look for places away from the confusion, where you not focused.
looks at the positive side
won some free advice.
Fandangos TR 60 Half-Orc
Massivewall GF 60 Human
Massive GWF 60 Human
Server: Dragon
To add to what I said in the previous page:
Dodge Mage
- Does not allow the mage to damage during this time.
- Prevents damage and checks only if done at the right time.
- There is no limit on the duration.
- it kills combining several skills that require time
Immune / stealth rogue:
- Allows the rogue to damage during this time.
- Always avoid damage and controls
- Is almost unlimited if the combined length of several skills (enough to kill the opponent before his huge dps benefits)
- it kills in 1 or 2 shots or very very quickly
Shiled War
- Always avoid damage and controls
- Is of unlimited duration
- it kills in 3 shots.
Because in order to dodge GF's and GWF's I merely have to out maneuver them.
For CW's and Wizards I have to dodge their encounter powers and can always retaliate against them while they use the far lower damage basic attacks.
I can out maneuver rogues in melee range...but ItC seriously inhibits my repertoire. I can't dodge CoS of their At-Will attacks which hurt far, far more than CW's and DC's At-Wills and their far, far more deadly Encounter Attacks. There's simply too much to dodge in order for that "counter" to be viable. Would you suggest people dodge magic missile? That's what you're telling me to do. You'll LIMIT the damage by dodging but it's a lost cause battle against a class with far more defensive powers and offensive potential than any other class.
Every other class can be dodged and out-maneuvered by careful dodges and positioning. Rogues simply have too many high offensive and defensive abilities for other classes to maneuver against them.
Heck that could be part of the problem: the rogue all around has no direct sense of direction.
Are they supposed to be the ultimate damage class? The ultimate maneuverable class? A melee class or a ranged class? A stealth class or defensive class?
It's everything short of a healing class. No matter what it is not balanced how it is or with the proposed changes so long as they can remain invulnerable close up and able to attack from stealth at a range. The class could be nerfed in so many other ways which would make it more in line...but doing that would damage the class far more than simply eliminating the ItC, Stealth and CoS combo.
AGAINST ALL THE BENEFITS OF THE ROGUE
REALLY LOST TIME
but I wonder if your CW has no other skills
because if you are playing with Dogde
as you kill something and how to get lvl 60?
Fandangos TR 60 Half-Orc
Massivewall GF 60 Human
Massive GWF 60 Human
Server: Dragon
enjoy...
Fandangos TR 60 Half-Orc
Massivewall GF 60 Human
Massive GWF 60 Human
Server: Dragon
Not only will your repeat posts like flood, but in addition you actually amalgams. The Pvp game is already twisted, if more members of the forum are doing so, it may still get worse for the future of this game is not won!
I mean dogge because you started to talk about it, no point in trying to turn what others say to give reason.
Now for the benefits that you mentioned the mage, I repeat what I said in the previous page, since in addition, you do not even read what i wrote :
Good wind !
My suggestion. Play a rogue, and learn what to look for and how to counter them.
Every time they idiot-proof something...they make better idiots.
If you can dodge the GF's bull rush and frontline surge, you're a pretty decent dodger. Those encounters have almost no casting time, and once you're in it, you're dead. That's why I don't understand why you seem so reluctant to dodge when it comes to CoS.
Damage resets after your dodge, and really, it does little damage the first few throws. After your dodge the TR has that many less knifes and has to start with pitiful damage again, never reaching the full 12 (or 8 next patch). CoS only does more damage when you sit idly by to take it all.
GWF with sprint are faster, and you say you can kite those yet complain about the beefiness of TR's? If you can kite an unstoppable GWF, you can kite a TR for 5 seconds when he's in ItC.
But don't get me wrong here, I do think CoS should drain stealth or have the TR show up as he would in melee range. Devs fixing the jump-attack is a very good thing too.
I just really don't see why you single out the TR for it's 'OPness' while you claim no problems with the "Opness" of the GF and GWF. Those two classes do what you say the TR is doing to you far better, faster and harder. They only don't do it from stealth.
CoS has been taken care off. You are still stuck on the old function and you are discussing it on the PTR forum, you as a mod should know this is the wrong forum to discuss live skills.
Read the numbers I posted earlier if you dont believe me that it's taken care off.
You started to argue about stealth+CoS was OP, now you throw more skills into the argument, even though we havent seen yet where TRs are at post patch. I'm so very glad you arent a dev at Cryptic.