Devoted Clerics have one spell to prevent rogues from coming into melee range without requiring a target and it's a very short duration.
That is supposed to be a joke right? You say that as if you have never used a divine sunburst ever. It sends rogues flying even if they are stealthed and they will not be after getting hit, not to mention they will be outside range for shadow strike at that point. We can easily out heal/dodge CoS and if you didn't totally ignore con score and def getting one hit killed because of lack of paying attention becomes a non issue. Is the dc a killing class not really, we still have a one shot but frankly we are there to turn our teammates into beasts.
There are two factors in pvp that need attention. First you cannot ignore defense and hp and expect to not drop like a rock, building for pvp is way different then building for pve as any class. Secondly Tenes, yes I said it Tenes does more to unbalance pvp than anything else. Simply limiting Tenes to one only would make a lot of nerf cries vanish, I'm not saying it would end them all but a large portion of them would cease. Playing all the classes reveals it is a lot more balanced than people think.
If you want to be a front line fighter play gf or gwf. If you want to be the antagonist picking off the weak getting in for a kill and getting out fast play tr. If you want to be a ranged kiting and controlling killer play cw. If you want to be a mid line support player that turns your pals into killing machines play a dc. If your current class is not what you want to do re-roll. It all boils down to know your role, if you want a different one re-roll.
A well played dc can rack up a good number of kills by simply melting the faces of wounded people while assisting their team, but the team should be the main focus.
I have been on all 5 sides of the fence and I'm ready for this grass is greener BS to stop!
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
what happens with your ability to dodge then?
does it only work against GF abilities?
and considering your comments about there beeing no counters:
for that that there are no counters, they get countered alot
seems unlogical
also you cant balance playerskill, if you believe that that is possible, then you are really naive
and since you said yourself that "learn to play" comments are a big no-no, i surely wont bring them but your posts really sound like that
Ah well
-Desstzo
In order to dodge the Guardian Fighter and GWF At-Wills I need only keep out of range of their at wills.
That's easy enough because CW's and DC's are ranged classes. If a Guardian Fighter Bull Rushes me I dodge avoiding both the knockdown and any risk of a basic attack. I'll put chains of blazing light down and prevent them from reaching me.
As long as I keep out of reach a GF and I will basically stalemate.
As for a GWF it's a bit more complicated but if I keep him out of reach his unstoppable will not come up or will at least be up less often. As such it's again merely a dance of keeping out of range using CC effects to keep myself out of harm's way.
On top of that I can also use at-wills while I kite which not only allows me to deal damage over time but also helps me keep divinity for Astral Shield and Sunburst.
What's the difference with rogues?
I have said it in every post I can't prevent the damage from daggers. If I dodge I will at best have 6 stick in me compared to the zero from keeping out of reach of GF's and GWF's.
Next I can not attack a rogue in stealth at range. This means no divinity generation so I will not be able to use Astral Shield or Sunburst to keep myself out of harms way. It's akin to having to bailing a boat that has a hole in the bottom of the boat. Eventually the boat will sink.
The coup de gras is that ItC will cost me any control. I can't do damage, I can't CC them, all I can do is dodge the attacks with no way to relent the assault until ItC runs out thus resulting in the renewal of the stealth CoS barrage.
There's no playskill that can counter that. It is a losing battle which has far too many odds in the favor of the rogue. All low risk and high reward for the rogues.
If he's barraging me with CoS from stealth he is doing damage and taking none in return. High reward, low risk.
If he is in melee range with ItC on he is doing damage (or at least preventing me from doing much but dodge) without taking damage. High reward, low risk.
You can say it can be countered all you want but there's no counter. I can get lucky and he could mess up permitting me to damage him for a period of time but it is a microscopically short-lived victory more often than not.
That is supposed to be a joke right? You say that as if you have never used a divine sunburst ever. It sends rogues flying even if they are stealthed and they will not be after getting hit, not to mention they will be outside range for shadow strike at that point.
Use a divine sunburst on an ItC rogue. Doesn't do much good.
And the rogue's range on CoS is further than Sunburst's radius. Yeah you could get *lucky* but then you're out some precious divinity in a fight I already said limits divinity generation massively. And even then it would be nothing more than a short reprieve. The damage output on a cleric would not kill a rogue from full health before the Stealth/ItC combo continued.
and why is paper then complaining that pickaxe beats it?
isnt it supposed to be like that?
otherwise it wouldnt be rock, paper, pickaxe anymore
TRs beat CWs
CWs beat GF/GWFs
GF/GWFs beat TRs
sounds balanced, unless you are paper and whine about scissors ofc
Ah well
-Desstzo
I wish this list was kinda accurate, but I've never personally experienced the "CW beat GF/GWF", never ever. Versus a good CW it can be difficult to kill them as a GWF, if they look for your controls and dodge them. As a GF its freight train vs empy coke can pretty much. I personally feel the TR vs CW to be far more equal out of a CW perspective.
In group vs group combat the CW is great for locking down the GF, since Ray of Frost chill is unblockable, so you just open with it, then when the GF is frozen you dish out the other controls and damage spells. 1vs1 its just not that easy, since he'll be in your face in seconds. Does this make GF imbalanced? No since the game isnt designed around 1vs1.
I know I'll have hard time as a TR vs GF/GWF too. Does this mean I want them nerfed? No not really, since they are killable if you handle your skills the right way. I'm also aware everything will be hard as a DC. Does this mean I want them buffed? Yes infact it does, since they are at a bad preformance level right now. Are TRs the thing I fear the most as a DC? No far from it. For me its, GF, GWF, CW then TR. The TR just doesnt have the gap closers/control that a GWF or GF has, or the ranged superiority/control of a CW.
I dont think I've lost a single 1vs1 as a GF yet in BGs vs a TR, CW, GWF or DC.
@Ambi: FmF, use it, love it, live by it. There, your TR problems are gone. Use it instead of the wasteful chains. FmF is perfect for filling the downtime gap on AS, it has a very high heal. Aslong as you ignore it and dont use it, your cries for nerfs wont be taken seriously.
If TR uses CoS, use AS, if TR gets close, sap him with FmF. Third encounter is your choice, Healing Word maybe for more staying power. Are you even using feated foresight?
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited August 2013
Haha, well at least we agree on something sneakyervin.
If you can get to a CW on a GF or a GWF it's basically game over but there in lies the key. A good CW can and has locked me up as a GF and I have done the same to them.
Whereas I do agree in a team fight as a Cleric my number on fear is the GF's CC chain.
But team fights are a different dynamic. While I fear the GF more in team fights it's normally because in team fights rogues have a harder time focusing on a target. I find I can keep rogues and GF's spinning to keep up equally well in team fights but if a Guardian Fighter does catch me I know the fight is over. I can take a hit from a rogue and walk away but if a GF knocks me prone I know my death will come swiftly either at his hands or at the hands of another enemy.
This is vastly different when there isn't a mix of players. A good TR should be able to go 1v3 against 3 CW's/DC's and come out on top by keeping out of range and using CoS in stealth and then using ItC and encounters in melee. That is why, although DC's do need a buff, I see this as a TR problem. Unless a GF/GWF/Rogue is there a rogue can easily handle multiple DC's and CW's with the proper focus and time.
That shouldn't happen.
I know wizards aren't underpowered. They can both prove an immense challenge to every class so seeing rogues avoid taking any damage against multiple CW's even if they have a DC there is a major flaw...
And one centered around untargetable attacking from a range in stealth and being impossible to catch in melee.
You can say it cant be countered all you want but there are counters
I mean, i am a DC as well and have no problems, exactly as alot of other DCs too....so it cant be the class that is failing here
Ah well
-Desstzo
Please list your counters that you would perform on your DC and I will tell you how simple it is for me to counter your counter with my TR. I'm guessing at least 90% of what you could offer me would be rendered useless simply by means of movement/repositioning. (Which I do at 30%+ run speed while in stealth with dodge rolling replenishing 10% stealth)
DC's are basically a free kill for me on my rogue barring circumstances where they get help. Ran into one yesterday that was more difficult to kill then normal but only because he was eating major rejuv pots like candy. Needless to say he rage quit the match after 4-5 deaths and probably at least 15 pots.
But still please enlighten me of your superior counters you speak of that render TR's "no problem".
Ah well
-nuk.....oh... wait i think my names already listed somewhere on here
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percefusMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
GWF is a striker, if you buy a gwf companion (sellsword) you will see that he is classified as a striker... GWF is not a tank, he cant agro very well if he goes pure defense, or even worse he cant agro without being near the mob... Tank is GF
if he goes dmg he wont survive enough to tank all mobs as well
where did you came with GWF not being a striker... you just need to see that in a solo queue if you are a GWF you are going to wait a long time because it competes with rogues.. while GF is way faster...
AOE dmg is not so good, because you have singularity... even so TR has dmg enough to easily kill one by one...,if GWF is not a striker and he is not a tank... what is he? Useless
And it is really easy to find party for DD as a GWF... not.
I would have to agree with Sneaky, his definition of GWF class is closer than you are, when he used the term " hybrid " because you are part damage dealer and part defender, so hybrid is the correct term. The only true striker class is the trickster rogue. Sorry
The Sellsword companion for all intents and purposes is not a GWF but a striker companion and uses the power Wicked Strike and Weapon Master
To be honest I am not a true believer in "perma-stealth", I can see where some may have issues with it in pvp, I don't use perma-stealth and never will. I do use stealth because it is a requisite of our class but not the way those that run perma-stealth do. The problem is that Cryptic never said WHY they were nerfing the rogue the way they did so that still is quite a mystery. If they were trying to nerf perma-stealth they completely did it the WRONG way!
All they ended up doing the first time was making a class that depends on stealth USELESS !
You need to remember, Cryptic designed this game not the players and in any mmo there will be min and max users. Perma-stealth is in a sense a max build using our primary attribute stealth. The person that designed perma-stealth has even told them a simple way to get rid of it if that was their intention.
I for one wish they would come out and tell us just what they are trying to accomplish with this class because there are many intelligent players who could help them get their desired effect without destroying this class. I also wish they would stop nerfing our daily powers ( 2 so far) because as it is now our class is the slowest to accumulate action points in all of the classes!
A Proud Member Of THE 300 Guild - Tene's are nothing but P2W, Nerf or Remove please!
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
Having read the majority of this thread I can tell you the person(s) looking pathetic is not who you mentioned.
I for one wish they would come out and tell us just what they are trying to accomplish with this class because there are many intelligent players who could help them get their desired effect without destroying this class. I also wish they would stop nerfing our daily powers ( 2 so far) because as it is now our class is the slowest to accumulate action points in all of the classes!
Sadly true and every dmg nerf rogues take have made it worse without it ever being addressed, eventually it will be just that a Daily.
Use a divine sunburst on an ItC rogue. Doesn't do much good.
And the rogue's range on CoS is further than Sunburst's radius. Yeah you could get *lucky* but then you're out some precious divinity in a fight I already said limits divinity generation massively. And even then it would be nothing more than a short reprieve. The damage output on a cleric would not kill a rogue from full health before the Stealth/ItC combo continued.
Why? It's not like you can't tell he is currently ITC or not, you make it sound like ITC and CoS are always up 100% of the time. Everything a rogue has can be countered, even the dreaded Lurkers(Makes a distinct sound from a mile away alerting of the rogues position) either move away for 10 seconds or move into the rogue and sunburst... either way he just wasted a daily.
Please list your counters that you would perform on your DC and I will tell you how simple it is for me to counter your counter with my TR. I'm guessing at least 90% of what you could offer me would be rendered useless simply by means of movement/repositioning. (Which I do at 30%+ run speed while in stealth with dodge rolling replenishing 10% stealth)
DC's are basically a free kill for me on my rogue barring circumstances where they get help. Ran into one yesterday that was more difficult to kill then normal but only because he was eating major rejuv pots like candy. Needless to say he rage quit the match after 4-5 deaths and probably at least 15 pots.
But still please enlighten me of your superior counters you speak of that render TR's "no problem".
Ah well
-nuk.....oh... wait i think my names already listed somewhere on here
i know that the counters can be countered
but the counters to counter the counters can be countered as well
and the counters to counter the counters that counter the initital counters can be countered as well
thats called balance and doesnt mean one side is OP
Ah well
-Desstzo
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kingculexMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Very nice image and it does mean balance. CW sometimes even snag Rouges. In my opinion these nerfs are going to unbalance the game. It seems the devs agreed that the nerf to stealth was too heavy handed and did not fix what they were trying to fix. It would make things a lot easier if the devs told us what they are planning on fixing. There are other ways to fix permastealth rouges than by nerfing stealth directly if they are planning to fix permastealth rouges. We will do not know what their goals are.
Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
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kingculexMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
People need to stop treating Domination like Deathmatch... I barely ever play my DC in PVP.... but decided I would today... even when the numbnuts melee ran off I followed them... and stayed alive pretty much anytime I was close to one of them. Doing what I do best... keeping my Melee classes alive... now the CWs and TRs died like normal (surprisingly the CWs stayed alive longer than ALL but one TR who was geared to the teeth).
So as a TR as my main... my GF as my tank (I still suck with him) I found my experience this morning in PVP much easier with my DC than I do with my TR. It's a lot less work to prevent dieing with my DC. Just follow and stop thinking I can get kills without support... my DC 9.4K won all but 1 match... did I get 2 for 1s like I do with my TR... no... my teams however, won more often.
A TR that plays as a DC and knows how to play a DC properly. Are you on the dragon shard? It is good to have friends like you in the game especially when dungeon delves starts up.
Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
Control Wizards have a couple which can prevent enemies from reaching them but those are mainly dailies. I can't recall any encounter powers which prevent targets from reaching Control Wizards without a target.
In the end I become more and more convinced you guys play rogues and notice when your play errors are tossed back into your face which I surely have done on more than one occasion...
You make it sound like a bad thing
But I play all five classes, gs ranging from 8.5 to 10.5, so I'm definitely not elite.
Since your main point of contension is how I can say I do not have a major problem against GF's and GWF's as a Cleric I'll stick to that:
I can dodge the knockdowns. I can use chains to keep them at a distance. I can bide time until allies arrive or hold my own until I make a play error.
My point is you can use the same tactics against a TR. You know that when he pops ItC and has used another perma-stealth encounter before, he'll either have a second perma-stealth slotted, or a damagedealer, likely slashing blade.
So either no damage dealers or a ridiculously easy one to dodge.
Your only problem is CoS, and while you keep repeating it, there's no reason for you not to dodge after the first couple of daggers and reset the damage on them. TR's had 12, now they get 8, but it still takes a long time to recharge them. You're not only dodging his daggers, you're also extending their downtime.
Whereas a Rogue, as I have repeated time and time again, could kill me straight up with CoS before the recent changes. The recent changes no doubt have stopped that, great, but instead of being outright dead from CoS I'll still have half of my HP gone without being able to retaliate or kite effectively.
You've read many people here, TR and otherwise, and can see on video's, that CoS usually takes half a life to more if the opponent doesn't dodge.
I have no way to counter that. No amount of kiting will contend with that. No amount of playskill can save me from a quick death because the amount of damage I can take and the amount of times I can dodge are far less than a rogue's damage output and the number of daggers and encounter powers a rogue can dish my way.
TR's have three encounter slots, same as you, full perma-stealth have no damaging encounter powers slotted. So you only need to worry about Path of the Blade or Blitz, which don't hurt much, Dazing Strike or Lashing Blade, which are easily dodged, and Deft Strike, taking the TR right at your back.
If you can dodge the faster casting Bull Rush, you can dodge Lashing Blade.
If you can get to a CW on a GF or a GWF it's basically game over but there in lies the key. A good CW can and has locked me up as a GF and I have done the same to them.
Whereas I do agree in a team fight as a Cleric my number on fear is the GF's CC chain.
But team fights are a different dynamic. While I fear the GF more in team fights it's normally because in team fights rogues have a harder time focusing on a target. I find I can keep rogues and GF's spinning to keep up equally well in team fights but if a Guardian Fighter does catch me I know the fight is over. I can take a hit from a rogue and walk away but if a GF knocks me prone I know my death will come swiftly either at his hands or at the hands of another enemy.
Now you are saying it yourself, it's the same with TR's, either you make the mistake, or they do. Personally I find the 5seconds ItC far more manageable than the Bouncing Betty of the GF, in which I'm really immobilized.
You've stated somewhere else you can't get enough Divine Power because you can't attack the TR. Why not slot Divine Fortune and Healing Word? With a TR around you'll have a constant source of DP, offsetting the damage of the CoS. Place a Brand of the Sun on him and it'll get even better.
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kingculexMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Thank you for confirming that the counters you would offer are in fact pointless when countered themselves.
Ah well
-too easy
Too easy what? He was not avoiding the question and clearly stated that the counters can be countered. Everything can be countered. That is the idea of balance.
Let me explain his post more clearly:
1. He counters (counter1) the attack with a move.
2. The move he used to counter(counter1) the attack is countered(countered2) by a move done by the opponent.
3. The move used by the opponent to counter(counter2) the move he used to counter(counter1)the attack is countered(counter3) by another move he makes.
4.on and on counter counter counter back and forth.
That is called balance and doesn't mean one side is OP. Rouges are not invincible or invulnerable. Funny how he even said it was pointless posting the counters. He is correct that the only reason to list the counters is so you can list yours. It would not help anyone at all and would be dragged on and on endlessly. It is interesting how this thread has become unproductive in my opinion. The original topic of the thread was changes made by the devs to the Trickster Rouge class. That is why the thread is labeled Trickster Rouge Changes. In my opinion the thread has changed from the original topic and is now just being used by people to argue back at each other. The thread is now unproductive in my opinion. I will not respond to any reply to this post.
Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
Current state of balance heavily favours most rogue builds and some builds of other classes.
The only imbalance I see in builds which got BOTH damage and surviability.
1) TRs, their ItC is just too good skill to be encounter, make it Daily so they would have to actually choose between being invicible and doing damage.
2) GFs, Stalwart Bulwark builds, again - they have superior surviability (30k+ HP) which converts directly to damage, sorry but 10k power is just too much. Change the set bonus to work with their current power so they have to actually make themselves fragile to achieve such damage
3) GWFs, unstoppable is unessary skill - why do they have such good surviability skill when they are baned from tanking becuase of unsufficient threat generation? Make Unstoppable instead 50% damage ressistance increase 20% damage and 20% ressistance and no temporary HP so they can be competitive in terms of damage with rogues(or give them the taunt).
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Isn't that the point of pvp, to hope your enemy doesn't use a counter against you ? I mean if we are fighting and I swing my sword, the counter would be to block or move to avoid being hit, right ? So when I swing my sword I hope you don't block or move and I land a hit. If there where no counters then that would be a problem but if a player has a counter and fails to use it, whose fault is that ? As far as a DC well he's a healer and in most games I have ever played he needs support, without it he is unfortunately dead. That's the nateure of the beast.....
Yes, that is part of the topic that's being discussed. The TR's ability to deal substantial damage with CoS from stealth with little to no repercussions due to the lack of actual viable counters. Couple it with multiple other abilities and it creates a situation where there is simply no countering it for some classes. The back and forth you've stumbled into between myself and the "Ahh well -desstzo" gentleman stems initially from....
There's no playskill that can counter that. It is a losing battle which has far too many odds in the favor of the rogue. All low risk and high reward for the rogues.
If he's barraging me with CoS from stealth he is doing damage and taking none in return. High reward, low risk.
If he is in melee range with ItC on he is doing damage (or at least preventing me from doing much but dodge) without taking damage. High reward, low risk.
You can say it can be countered all you want but there's no counter. I can get lucky and he could mess up permitting me to damage him for a period of time but it is a microscopically short-lived victory more often than not.
Use a divine sunburst on an ItC rogue. Doesn't do much good.
And the rogue's range on CoS is further than Sunburst's radius. Yeah you could get *lucky* but then you're out some precious divinity in a fight I already said limits divinity generation massively. And even then it would be nothing more than a short reprieve. The damage output on a cleric would not kill a rogue from full health before the Stealth/ItC combo continued.
Please list your counters that you would perform on your DC and I will tell you how simple it is for me to counter your counter with my TR. I'm guessing at least 90% of what you could offer me would be rendered useless simply by means of movement/repositioning. (Which I do at 30%+ run speed while in stealth with dodge rolling replenishing 10% stealth)
DC's are basically a free kill for me on my rogue barring circumstances where they get help. Ran into one yesterday that was more difficult to kill then normal but only because he was eating major rejuv pots like candy. Needless to say he rage quit the match after 4-5 deaths and probably at least 15 pots.
But still please enlighten me of your superior counters you speak of that render TR's "no problem".
i know that the counters can be countered
but the counters to counter the counters can be countered as well
and the counters to counter the counters that counter the initital counters can be countered as well
thats called balance and doesnt mean one side is OP
I pointed out he was deflecting... inevitably leading him to...
what would be the point of posting the counters?
so you can post your counters to the counters and feel great about it?
wouldnt really help anyone besides you
Essentially back at square one where the DC without help has little to no counter ability versus a properly played rogue. Whether or not you believe the DC requires help from others to survive is irrelevant since that wasn't part of the initial discussion.
Yes, that is part of the topic that's being discussed. The TR's ability to deal substantial damage with CoS from stealth with little to no repercussions due to the lack of actual viable counters. Couple it with multiple other abilities and it creates a situation where there is simply no countering it for some classes.
those "some" classes are just not in game yet, every class has ways to counter TR moves, problem is that most of them arent as obvious as others and thus people need to actually learn their class to perform them instead of just playing along...but nowadays people rather whine on the forums then actually learn the game
its just natural that the 2h guy gets stomped by someone who plays for 3 weeks at cap already but that doesnt mean that the class from guy2 is overpowered, it just means he already learned stuff that guy1 is still missing
Ah well
-Desstzo
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cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
A TR that plays as a DC and knows how to play a DC properly. Are you on the dragon shard? It is good to have friends like you in the game especially when dungeon delves starts up.
Yeah I'm on dragon Candoryl Lyvanthar@cbrowne0329 is my DC
Vzyncar is my PVP Scoundrel Build
Theolyneous is my PVE Executioner Build
Ferrum Laterre is my GF Conqueuer Build (still getting the hang of him in PVP)
Right now I'm working on my enchants... I'm one of those idiots that likes to earn and grind for his stuff and not buy it in AH. I have a vorpal and lesser plague now... just need Coal wards. I have about 20 of enchants from Karrundax and Pirate King... but I'm tryign to get them all to greater or perfect before slotting them... and with 4 chars at 60... well yeah...
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percefusMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yes, that is part of the topic that's being discussed. The TR's ability to deal substantial damage with CoS from stealth with little to no repercussions due to the lack of actual viable counters. Couple it with multiple other abilities and it creates a situation where there is simply no countering it for some classes. The back and forth you've stumbled into between myself and the "Ahh well -desstzo" gentleman stems initially from....
So I asked...
To which he replied deflecting...
I pointed out he was deflecting... inevitably leading him to...
Essentially back at square one where the DC without help has little to no counter ability versus a properly played rogue. Whether or not you believe the DC requires help from others to survive is irrelevant since that wasn't part of the initial discussion.
I am not disagreeing with you but the fact remains there are counters that can be used and counters to counter them too. I think we all can agree on that, but the DC is really a support class in this game because that's how it was designed. I do feel what you might be missing is the fact that far too many players in pvp are out for themselves instead of using teamwork and synergy and DC can be killed by any other class in this game that does damage.
I believe the most powerful power in this game is the sum of all and that's TEAMWORK and thru teamwork comes synergy. And teamwork should be something that everyone on each side strives for, most of the time when you see premades in pvp it's teamwork at it's finest.
Please don't get me wrong, I love playing my TR and I too find the perma-stealth rogue build not very pvp friendly (I don't use it nor ever will) and I am also all about balance and fairness in game play as well. But to cripple a class in pve because of pvp, that's not fair either.
I know it has been said many times but if the developers truly wanted balance there wouldn't be enchantments such as tenes in game. I feel they are one of the worst culprits in this game that screams P2W more than anything else, PERIOD! And EVERYONE should be screaming for them to either be nerfed or removed for any semblance of balance.
I don't give a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> if PW makes money from them, if everyone screams about them then and only then will they be dealt with.....
A Proud Member Of THE 300 Guild - Tene's are nothing but P2W, Nerf or Remove please!
Haha, well at least we agree on something sneakyervin.
If you can get to a CW on a GF or a GWF it's basically game over but there in lies the key. A good CW can and has locked me up as a GF and I have done the same to them.
A GF of equal skill will destroy any CW, the same goes for GWF. Both have enough gap closers to be in the CWs face within seconds when its 1vs1. The CW just wont lock you up long enough to finish you. LS and Threatening Rush are enough to stay within melee range constantly vs a CW. Just like unstoppable and sprint for GWFs. Its alot of HPs to take down before they manage to reach you and control you to death.
I've been on the brink of death on my GWF many times, only to turn around, pop unstoppable, takedown, flourish, crescendo, resto strike and wipe out whatever I hit. It doesnt matter what class it is, with the debuffs, arpen and damage buffs to my encounters through unstoppable and WMS they will sit at very low mitigation.
With a GF all you need to get off is 1 of your controls, then the rest will hit and kill, and the GF controls are easy to hit with. For the GWF its a wee bit harder, since their animations are more obvious, takedown is quite quick and short though, so a good opener.
As a support class like the DC I see no reason to not use AS, Healing word/SB and FmF. Those are the best encounters you can get because they keep you alive. Add forsight on that and you have the mitigation of a GF. I would personally argue that sunburst isnt needed and that HW would be much better along with the divinity building class feat while healing. Slap BotS on that and A-seal or SF and you should have a good start. It will give you everything you can want from a support class.
And as mentioned in your post, group combat, that is the key to PvP.
@Nukeyoo: Stop comparing live server things on a PTR forum. You keep bringing up CoS way too often, when it has been nerfed hard on the PTR. The live combo is dead, you wont see it again, so stop bringing it up on these forums. If you wanna argue about CoS OP damage, go to the live forums and discuss the live version. The PTR version will hit for roughly half of the live version, the PTR kill combo will also hit for half of what it does on live, or less.
CoS in stealth whether it be 12 or 8 charges is capable of doing substantial amount of dps with little to no repercussions.
The repercussion is the recharge time when the opponent dodges.
People are discussing counters, counter-counters and the value of those, and you've been in enough threads to have seen most of them. You can't go on saying there are no counters, people are talking about them already.
And I'd be fine with CoS draining stealth a bit, or make it otherwise on-par with melee-range.
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percefusMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The only change that I've even mentioned that differs from the current PTS setup would be for CoS to apply a bit of drain to stealth when used in stealth. Far from class crippling in pvp and hardly noticeable in pve. What's more entertaining is that some of these same people that argue so adamantly against this proposed change were okay with and even recommended in some cases the idea of only CoS draining stealth even saying that it was balancing, but that was when the overnerf of all at-wills draining stealth was on the table. So now that its off the table the idea of CoS draining stealth is class ruining according to them.
The only problem I see currently is that we have absolutely no idea what the developers are trying to accomplish with this proposed nerf. I am unaware that any of them have posted what they wish to accomplish with this nerf, if I am wrong please direct me to any post that would clarify it. To solve any issue one needs to know the problem, be it perma-stealth, CoS or whatever, we need to know and should be demanding what it is they are trying to accomplish with this nerf before anything is put into place on the live server.
Until that has been clarified I just don't see nerfing anything with the rogue class or any other for that matter.
I am all for fair play and balance but not at the expense of rendering any class useless in PvE because of PvP in this game which in my opinion is a lot more important than what PvP in this game currently offers....
A Proud Member Of THE 300 Guild - Tene's are nothing but P2W, Nerf or Remove please!
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kingculexMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
I have an idea several people will like or hate. It is reasonable to have some give and take to make both parties happy.
Step one: Have CoS drain stealth. <-This will knock rogues out of stealth.
Step two: Have CoS briefly stun a target when used by a stealth rogue. <-Only fair with stealth being drained.
Optional Step Three: Using CoS while stealthed does not cost any charges. <-Only optional, probably not a good idea.
Basically it makes CoS drain stealth and gives it the properties of impact shot with lower damage per dagger. Basically an 8 shot Impact Shot instead of a 3 shot one. The step three is optional but would be a bad idea in the long run. This is just an idea to make both parties happy. I wish we knew what the devs are trying to do with the nerfs.
Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
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thalesamrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
My party only go PvE, it is funny that we all are doing TR and deleting our GWFs XD.
But our DC does more dmg than anyone since she can use buff/debuff that doubles our dmg... everything melts like ice...
but we maybe need a CW after they fixes FH in expansion patch...
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
My party only go PvE, it is funny that we all are doing TR and deleting our GWFs XD.
But our DC does more dmg than anyone since she can use buff/debuff that doubles our dmg... everything melts like ice...
but we maybe need a CW after they fixes FH in expansion patch...
Comments
what happens with your ability to dodge then?
does it only work against GF abilities?
and considering your comments about there beeing no counters:
for that that there are no counters, they get countered alot
seems unlogical
also you cant balance playerskill, if you believe that that is possible, then you are really naive
and since you said yourself that "learn to play" comments are a big no-no, i surely wont bring them but your posts really sound like that
Ah well
-Desstzo
That is supposed to be a joke right? You say that as if you have never used a divine sunburst ever. It sends rogues flying even if they are stealthed and they will not be after getting hit, not to mention they will be outside range for shadow strike at that point. We can easily out heal/dodge CoS and if you didn't totally ignore con score and def getting one hit killed because of lack of paying attention becomes a non issue. Is the dc a killing class not really, we still have a one shot but frankly we are there to turn our teammates into beasts.
There are two factors in pvp that need attention. First you cannot ignore defense and hp and expect to not drop like a rock, building for pvp is way different then building for pve as any class. Secondly Tenes, yes I said it Tenes does more to unbalance pvp than anything else. Simply limiting Tenes to one only would make a lot of nerf cries vanish, I'm not saying it would end them all but a large portion of them would cease. Playing all the classes reveals it is a lot more balanced than people think.
If you want to be a front line fighter play gf or gwf. If you want to be the antagonist picking off the weak getting in for a kill and getting out fast play tr. If you want to be a ranged kiting and controlling killer play cw. If you want to be a mid line support player that turns your pals into killing machines play a dc. If your current class is not what you want to do re-roll. It all boils down to know your role, if you want a different one re-roll.
A well played dc can rack up a good number of kills by simply melting the faces of wounded people while assisting their team, but the team should be the main focus.
I have been on all 5 sides of the fence and I'm ready for this grass is greener BS to stop!
In order to dodge the Guardian Fighter and GWF At-Wills I need only keep out of range of their at wills.
That's easy enough because CW's and DC's are ranged classes. If a Guardian Fighter Bull Rushes me I dodge avoiding both the knockdown and any risk of a basic attack. I'll put chains of blazing light down and prevent them from reaching me.
As long as I keep out of reach a GF and I will basically stalemate.
As for a GWF it's a bit more complicated but if I keep him out of reach his unstoppable will not come up or will at least be up less often. As such it's again merely a dance of keeping out of range using CC effects to keep myself out of harm's way.
On top of that I can also use at-wills while I kite which not only allows me to deal damage over time but also helps me keep divinity for Astral Shield and Sunburst.
What's the difference with rogues?
I have said it in every post I can't prevent the damage from daggers. If I dodge I will at best have 6 stick in me compared to the zero from keeping out of reach of GF's and GWF's.
Next I can not attack a rogue in stealth at range. This means no divinity generation so I will not be able to use Astral Shield or Sunburst to keep myself out of harms way. It's akin to having to bailing a boat that has a hole in the bottom of the boat. Eventually the boat will sink.
The coup de gras is that ItC will cost me any control. I can't do damage, I can't CC them, all I can do is dodge the attacks with no way to relent the assault until ItC runs out thus resulting in the renewal of the stealth CoS barrage.
There's no playskill that can counter that. It is a losing battle which has far too many odds in the favor of the rogue. All low risk and high reward for the rogues.
If he's barraging me with CoS from stealth he is doing damage and taking none in return. High reward, low risk.
If he is in melee range with ItC on he is doing damage (or at least preventing me from doing much but dodge) without taking damage. High reward, low risk.
You can say it can be countered all you want but there's no counter. I can get lucky and he could mess up permitting me to damage him for a period of time but it is a microscopically short-lived victory more often than not.
Use a divine sunburst on an ItC rogue. Doesn't do much good.
And the rogue's range on CoS is further than Sunburst's radius. Yeah you could get *lucky* but then you're out some precious divinity in a fight I already said limits divinity generation massively. And even then it would be nothing more than a short reprieve. The damage output on a cleric would not kill a rogue from full health before the Stealth/ItC combo continued.
I mean, i am a DC as well and have no problems, exactly as alot of other DCs too....so it cant be the class that is failing here
Ah well
-Desstzo
I wish this list was kinda accurate, but I've never personally experienced the "CW beat GF/GWF", never ever. Versus a good CW it can be difficult to kill them as a GWF, if they look for your controls and dodge them. As a GF its freight train vs empy coke can pretty much. I personally feel the TR vs CW to be far more equal out of a CW perspective.
In group vs group combat the CW is great for locking down the GF, since Ray of Frost chill is unblockable, so you just open with it, then when the GF is frozen you dish out the other controls and damage spells. 1vs1 its just not that easy, since he'll be in your face in seconds. Does this make GF imbalanced? No since the game isnt designed around 1vs1.
I know I'll have hard time as a TR vs GF/GWF too. Does this mean I want them nerfed? No not really, since they are killable if you handle your skills the right way. I'm also aware everything will be hard as a DC. Does this mean I want them buffed? Yes infact it does, since they are at a bad preformance level right now. Are TRs the thing I fear the most as a DC? No far from it. For me its, GF, GWF, CW then TR. The TR just doesnt have the gap closers/control that a GWF or GF has, or the ranged superiority/control of a CW.
I dont think I've lost a single 1vs1 as a GF yet in BGs vs a TR, CW, GWF or DC.
@Ambi: FmF, use it, love it, live by it. There, your TR problems are gone. Use it instead of the wasteful chains. FmF is perfect for filling the downtime gap on AS, it has a very high heal. Aslong as you ignore it and dont use it, your cries for nerfs wont be taken seriously.
If TR uses CoS, use AS, if TR gets close, sap him with FmF. Third encounter is your choice, Healing Word maybe for more staying power. Are you even using feated foresight?
If you can get to a CW on a GF or a GWF it's basically game over but there in lies the key. A good CW can and has locked me up as a GF and I have done the same to them.
Whereas I do agree in a team fight as a Cleric my number on fear is the GF's CC chain.
But team fights are a different dynamic. While I fear the GF more in team fights it's normally because in team fights rogues have a harder time focusing on a target. I find I can keep rogues and GF's spinning to keep up equally well in team fights but if a Guardian Fighter does catch me I know the fight is over. I can take a hit from a rogue and walk away but if a GF knocks me prone I know my death will come swiftly either at his hands or at the hands of another enemy.
This is vastly different when there isn't a mix of players. A good TR should be able to go 1v3 against 3 CW's/DC's and come out on top by keeping out of range and using CoS in stealth and then using ItC and encounters in melee. That is why, although DC's do need a buff, I see this as a TR problem. Unless a GF/GWF/Rogue is there a rogue can easily handle multiple DC's and CW's with the proper focus and time.
That shouldn't happen.
I know wizards aren't underpowered. They can both prove an immense challenge to every class so seeing rogues avoid taking any damage against multiple CW's even if they have a DC there is a major flaw...
And one centered around untargetable attacking from a range in stealth and being impossible to catch in melee.
Please list your counters that you would perform on your DC and I will tell you how simple it is for me to counter your counter with my TR. I'm guessing at least 90% of what you could offer me would be rendered useless simply by means of movement/repositioning. (Which I do at 30%+ run speed while in stealth with dodge rolling replenishing 10% stealth)
DC's are basically a free kill for me on my rogue barring circumstances where they get help. Ran into one yesterday that was more difficult to kill then normal but only because he was eating major rejuv pots like candy. Needless to say he rage quit the match after 4-5 deaths and probably at least 15 pots.
But still please enlighten me of your superior counters you speak of that render TR's "no problem".
Ah well
-nuk.....oh... wait i think my names already listed somewhere on here
Trickster Rogue - Role: Striker
Ability Scores Primary: Dexterity
Secondary: Strength,Charisma
Source: http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Trickster_Rogue
Great Weapon Fighter - Role: Damage Dealer,Secondary Defender
Ability Scores Primary: Strength
Secondary: Constitution, Dexterity
Source: http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Great_Weapon_Fighter
I would have to agree with Sneaky, his definition of GWF class is closer than you are, when he used the term " hybrid " because you are part damage dealer and part defender, so hybrid is the correct term. The only true striker class is the trickster rogue. Sorry
The Sellsword companion for all intents and purposes is not a GWF but a striker companion and uses the power Wicked Strike and Weapon Master
Source: http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Sellsword
To be honest I am not a true believer in "perma-stealth", I can see where some may have issues with it in pvp, I don't use perma-stealth and never will. I do use stealth because it is a requisite of our class but not the way those that run perma-stealth do. The problem is that Cryptic never said WHY they were nerfing the rogue the way they did so that still is quite a mystery. If they were trying to nerf perma-stealth they completely did it the WRONG way!
All they ended up doing the first time was making a class that depends on stealth USELESS !
You need to remember, Cryptic designed this game not the players and in any mmo there will be min and max users. Perma-stealth is in a sense a max build using our primary attribute stealth. The person that designed perma-stealth has even told them a simple way to get rid of it if that was their intention.
I for one wish they would come out and tell us just what they are trying to accomplish with this class because there are many intelligent players who could help them get their desired effect without destroying this class. I also wish they would stop nerfing our daily powers ( 2 so far) because as it is now our class is the slowest to accumulate action points in all of the classes!
A Proud Member Of THE 300 Guild - Tene's are nothing but P2W, Nerf or Remove please!
Sadly true and every dmg nerf rogues take have made it worse without it ever being addressed, eventually it will be just that a Daily.
Why? It's not like you can't tell he is currently ITC or not, you make it sound like ITC and CoS are always up 100% of the time. Everything a rogue has can be countered, even the dreaded Lurkers(Makes a distinct sound from a mile away alerting of the rogues position) either move away for 10 seconds or move into the rogue and sunburst... either way he just wasted a daily.
I'm out
I'm pretty sure it goes like this...
i know that the counters can be countered
but the counters to counter the counters can be countered as well
and the counters to counter the counters that counter the initital counters can be countered as well
thats called balance and doesnt mean one side is OP
Ah well
-Desstzo
Very nice image and it does mean balance. CW sometimes even snag Rouges. In my opinion these nerfs are going to unbalance the game. It seems the devs agreed that the nerf to stealth was too heavy handed and did not fix what they were trying to fix. It would make things a lot easier if the devs told us what they are planning on fixing. There are other ways to fix permastealth rouges than by nerfing stealth directly if they are planning to fix permastealth rouges. We will do not know what their goals are.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
A TR that plays as a DC and knows how to play a DC properly. Are you on the dragon shard? It is good to have friends like you in the game especially when dungeon delves starts up.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
You have Sunburst too, and the DoT At-Will.
Shield
You make it sound like a bad thing
But I play all five classes, gs ranging from 8.5 to 10.5, so I'm definitely not elite.
My point is you can use the same tactics against a TR. You know that when he pops ItC and has used another perma-stealth encounter before, he'll either have a second perma-stealth slotted, or a damagedealer, likely slashing blade.
So either no damage dealers or a ridiculously easy one to dodge.
Your only problem is CoS, and while you keep repeating it, there's no reason for you not to dodge after the first couple of daggers and reset the damage on them. TR's had 12, now they get 8, but it still takes a long time to recharge them. You're not only dodging his daggers, you're also extending their downtime.
You've read many people here, TR and otherwise, and can see on video's, that CoS usually takes half a life to more if the opponent doesn't dodge.
TR's have three encounter slots, same as you, full perma-stealth have no damaging encounter powers slotted. So you only need to worry about Path of the Blade or Blitz, which don't hurt much, Dazing Strike or Lashing Blade, which are easily dodged, and Deft Strike, taking the TR right at your back.
If you can dodge the faster casting Bull Rush, you can dodge Lashing Blade.
Again, same applies for TR's.
Now you are saying it yourself, it's the same with TR's, either you make the mistake, or they do. Personally I find the 5seconds ItC far more manageable than the Bouncing Betty of the GF, in which I'm really immobilized.
You've stated somewhere else you can't get enough Divine Power because you can't attack the TR. Why not slot Divine Fortune and Healing Word? With a TR around you'll have a constant source of DP, offsetting the damage of the CoS. Place a Brand of the Sun on him and it'll get even better.
Too easy what? He was not avoiding the question and clearly stated that the counters can be countered. Everything can be countered. That is the idea of balance.
Let me explain his post more clearly:
1. He counters (counter1) the attack with a move.
2. The move he used to counter(counter1) the attack is countered(countered2) by a move done by the opponent.
3. The move used by the opponent to counter(counter2) the move he used to counter(counter1)the attack is countered(counter3) by another move he makes.
4.on and on counter counter counter back and forth.
That is called balance and doesn't mean one side is OP. Rouges are not invincible or invulnerable. Funny how he even said it was pointless posting the counters. He is correct that the only reason to list the counters is so you can list yours. It would not help anyone at all and would be dragged on and on endlessly. It is interesting how this thread has become unproductive in my opinion. The original topic of the thread was changes made by the devs to the Trickster Rouge class. That is why the thread is labeled Trickster Rouge Changes. In my opinion the thread has changed from the original topic and is now just being used by people to argue back at each other. The thread is now unproductive in my opinion. I will not respond to any reply to this post.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
The only imbalance I see in builds which got BOTH damage and surviability.
1) TRs, their ItC is just too good skill to be encounter, make it Daily so they would have to actually choose between being invicible and doing damage.
2) GFs, Stalwart Bulwark builds, again - they have superior surviability (30k+ HP) which converts directly to damage, sorry but 10k power is just too much. Change the set bonus to work with their current power so they have to actually make themselves fragile to achieve such damage
3) GWFs, unstoppable is unessary skill - why do they have such good surviability skill when they are baned from tanking becuase of unsufficient threat generation? Make Unstoppable instead 50% damage ressistance increase 20% damage and 20% ressistance and no temporary HP so they can be competitive in terms of damage with rogues(or give them the taunt).
Yes, that is part of the topic that's being discussed. The TR's ability to deal substantial damage with CoS from stealth with little to no repercussions due to the lack of actual viable counters. Couple it with multiple other abilities and it creates a situation where there is simply no countering it for some classes. The back and forth you've stumbled into between myself and the "Ahh well -desstzo" gentleman stems initially from....
So I asked...
To which he replied deflecting...
I pointed out he was deflecting... inevitably leading him to...
Essentially back at square one where the DC without help has little to no counter ability versus a properly played rogue. Whether or not you believe the DC requires help from others to survive is irrelevant since that wasn't part of the initial discussion.
its just natural that the 2h guy gets stomped by someone who plays for 3 weeks at cap already but that doesnt mean that the class from guy2 is overpowered, it just means he already learned stuff that guy1 is still missing
Ah well
-Desstzo
Yeah I'm on dragon Candoryl Lyvanthar@cbrowne0329 is my DC
Vzyncar is my PVP Scoundrel Build
Theolyneous is my PVE Executioner Build
Ferrum Laterre is my GF Conqueuer Build (still getting the hang of him in PVP)
Right now I'm working on my enchants... I'm one of those idiots that likes to earn and grind for his stuff and not buy it in AH. I have a vorpal and lesser plague now... just need Coal wards. I have about 20 of enchants from Karrundax and Pirate King... but I'm tryign to get them all to greater or perfect before slotting them... and with 4 chars at 60... well yeah...
I am not disagreeing with you but the fact remains there are counters that can be used and counters to counter them too. I think we all can agree on that, but the DC is really a support class in this game because that's how it was designed. I do feel what you might be missing is the fact that far too many players in pvp are out for themselves instead of using teamwork and synergy and DC can be killed by any other class in this game that does damage.
I believe the most powerful power in this game is the sum of all and that's TEAMWORK and thru teamwork comes synergy. And teamwork should be something that everyone on each side strives for, most of the time when you see premades in pvp it's teamwork at it's finest.
Please don't get me wrong, I love playing my TR and I too find the perma-stealth rogue build not very pvp friendly (I don't use it nor ever will) and I am also all about balance and fairness in game play as well. But to cripple a class in pve because of pvp, that's not fair either.
I know it has been said many times but if the developers truly wanted balance there wouldn't be enchantments such as tenes in game. I feel they are one of the worst culprits in this game that screams P2W more than anything else, PERIOD! And EVERYONE should be screaming for them to either be nerfed or removed for any semblance of balance.
I don't give a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> if PW makes money from them, if everyone screams about them then and only then will they be dealt with.....
A Proud Member Of THE 300 Guild - Tene's are nothing but P2W, Nerf or Remove please!
A GF of equal skill will destroy any CW, the same goes for GWF. Both have enough gap closers to be in the CWs face within seconds when its 1vs1. The CW just wont lock you up long enough to finish you. LS and Threatening Rush are enough to stay within melee range constantly vs a CW. Just like unstoppable and sprint for GWFs. Its alot of HPs to take down before they manage to reach you and control you to death.
I've been on the brink of death on my GWF many times, only to turn around, pop unstoppable, takedown, flourish, crescendo, resto strike and wipe out whatever I hit. It doesnt matter what class it is, with the debuffs, arpen and damage buffs to my encounters through unstoppable and WMS they will sit at very low mitigation.
With a GF all you need to get off is 1 of your controls, then the rest will hit and kill, and the GF controls are easy to hit with. For the GWF its a wee bit harder, since their animations are more obvious, takedown is quite quick and short though, so a good opener.
As a support class like the DC I see no reason to not use AS, Healing word/SB and FmF. Those are the best encounters you can get because they keep you alive. Add forsight on that and you have the mitigation of a GF. I would personally argue that sunburst isnt needed and that HW would be much better along with the divinity building class feat while healing. Slap BotS on that and A-seal or SF and you should have a good start. It will give you everything you can want from a support class.
And as mentioned in your post, group combat, that is the key to PvP.
@Nukeyoo: Stop comparing live server things on a PTR forum. You keep bringing up CoS way too often, when it has been nerfed hard on the PTR. The live combo is dead, you wont see it again, so stop bringing it up on these forums. If you wanna argue about CoS OP damage, go to the live forums and discuss the live version. The PTR version will hit for roughly half of the live version, the PTR kill combo will also hit for half of what it does on live, or less.
The repercussion is the recharge time when the opponent dodges.
People are discussing counters, counter-counters and the value of those, and you've been in enough threads to have seen most of them. You can't go on saying there are no counters, people are talking about them already.
And I'd be fine with CoS draining stealth a bit, or make it otherwise on-par with melee-range.
The only problem I see currently is that we have absolutely no idea what the developers are trying to accomplish with this proposed nerf. I am unaware that any of them have posted what they wish to accomplish with this nerf, if I am wrong please direct me to any post that would clarify it. To solve any issue one needs to know the problem, be it perma-stealth, CoS or whatever, we need to know and should be demanding what it is they are trying to accomplish with this nerf before anything is put into place on the live server.
Until that has been clarified I just don't see nerfing anything with the rogue class or any other for that matter.
I am all for fair play and balance but not at the expense of rendering any class useless in PvE because of PvP in this game which in my opinion is a lot more important than what PvP in this game currently offers....
A Proud Member Of THE 300 Guild - Tene's are nothing but P2W, Nerf or Remove please!
Step one: Have CoS drain stealth. <-This will knock rogues out of stealth.
Step two: Have CoS briefly stun a target when used by a stealth rogue. <-Only fair with stealth being drained.
Optional Step Three: Using CoS while stealthed does not cost any charges. <-Only optional, probably not a good idea.
Basically it makes CoS drain stealth and gives it the properties of impact shot with lower damage per dagger. Basically an 8 shot Impact Shot instead of a 3 shot one. The step three is optional but would be a bad idea in the long run. This is just an idea to make both parties happy. I wish we knew what the devs are trying to do with the nerfs.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
But our DC does more dmg than anyone since she can use buff/debuff that doubles our dmg... everything melts like ice...
but we maybe need a CW after they fixes FH in expansion patch...
huh......?
Release Notes: NW.5.20130714b.7
Release Notes
Combat
Trickster Rogue