Oh, that's just priceless. I was tempted to write a sarcastic comment based on your vast inexperience of playing a TR at level 60. Instead I'll point out that your own argument makes clear you're talking about very high end gear. Most TR's don't have greater vorpals or perfect vorpals. I understand that your focus is solely on PvP and that you don't know how to play any other class than the GF. But I do hope you realize that many players don't have high end gear. Last night I was standing next to Click in the PE. He has rank 8's or 9's in each slot - most don't. He has a greater/perfect (Forget which one) vorpal in his weapon - most don't.
So it's really quite simple, the number you are complaining about are based on BiS gear. Gear that is still uncommon at best. A
Neat, thanks!
Watched for a bit, and it looks like it very much proves my earlier statement that massive hits like that aren't very common at all!
I think you just have a strong urge whatever you believe to prove that is right. If my buddy hits someone for only 1 40k lashing every match I consider that common. It happens every match. Didn't watch the vid but to see 2 big hits in it show how that it can happen a couple times in every match that makes it pretty common.
Yeah, because I was able to instantly point to a recording of it in one pvp match.....He has a 41k hit in the same video. This is from ONE MATCH. If this guy does 20 pvp matches a day he could make a video montage of 40k+ hits that would be 10 minutes long in 2 days. And there are half a dozen TR's with comparable gear/builds as this guy on Mindflayer alone. Guess how hard this guy hits for? (http://gateway.playneverwinter.com/#char%28Lakz@kushtaka%29/charactersheet)
I should know better than to get into these forum arguments. You can show live streaming proof of someone being wrong and they still wont admit it.
Its a shame they do OP damage like that. No wonder why a lot of players are annoyed getting hit all the time for big hits like that.
I think you just have a strong urge whatever you believe to prove that is right. If my buddy hits someone for only 1 40k lashing every match I consider that common. It happens every match. Didn't watch the vid but to see 2 big hits in it show how that it can happen a couple times in every match that makes it pretty common.
Since I generally use logic and facts in an argument, it tends to work out pretty well. This is another of those "I think so therefore it must be so" statements you seem to make regularly. So having watched more of that video, most of those crits were in the same ranges hit by many other geared characters - like say a GF who boasts of a 26K crit. In fact, most of them were more like 11K-14K. So when you say "I consider it common" that has a much weight as when you claim that things that aren't broken, bugged, or exploits are broken, bugged, or exploits. In other words, unsupported opinion.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
And again, I call shenanigans. Screenshot or it didn't happen. My TR is pretty darn effective and a lot of fun to play, but he doesn't hit that hard.
so, I posted a screenshot(live video even) of a TR doing that kind of damage multiple times in ONE MATCH, and you now say " Hey, thats with Lurkers and Lashing and only a few TRs can do it.
So im guessing if someone posted a screenshot or video of it happening over and over from a dozen TRs or more, you would STILL stick to your story. My point was not to change your mind with the video: I don't believe any proof would do that. The point was so that actually reasonable people reading this could see it. Thats not you.....or Abombination....just sayin.
so, I posted a screenshot(live video even) of a TR doing that kind of damage multiple times in ONE MATCH, and you now say " Hey, thats with Lurkers and Lashing and only a few TRs can do it.
So im guessing if someone posted a screenshot or video of it happening over and over from a dozen TRs or more, you would STILL stick to your story. My point was not to change your mind with the video: I don't believe any proof would do that. The point was so that actually reasonable people reading this could see it. Thats not you.....or Abombination....just sayin.
And it's a shame when people who boast of doing more damage demand that others be weakened. Watch the video, realize you're wrong, move on.
And while he is formulating a reply to my post, consider the irony of him telling someone to watch a "video, realize they are wrong, and move on".....
Oh and just a disclaimer: my argument with you does not in any way mean that I am in any agreement with abombination.......he's a special kind of bat **** crazy.
As we can see in this video that 40k crits are pretty common. That isn't a issue right? Rabbinicus you just kinda asked for proof of something you didn't believe and was proved wrong. I have a feeling that you don't like to be wrong and didn't anticipate proof of how 40k+ damage can happen and often.
I posted this on another thread. I have a dream. That today when I log in I will not encounter and Tene builds or get 1 shot by lashing blade.
Please note the use of the word "constantly" in the segment you quoted. It's not there for emphasis, but because some people have been complaining about how OP Tr's are because they "constantly" strike to insane amounts of damage.
so, I posted a screenshot(live video even) of a TR doing that kind of damage multiple times in ONE MATCH, and you now say " Hey, thats with Lurkers and Lashing and only a few TRs can do it.
I've said that before a number of times, so that's not really anything new or different. It's unfortunate that those conversations seem to keep extending into other parts of the forum from where they began, since things end up being repeated or presented without their prior context.
So im guessing if someone posted a screenshot or video of it happening over and over from a dozen TRs or more, you would STILL stick to your story. My point was not to change your mind with the video: I don't believe any proof would do that. The point was so that actually reasonable people reading this could see it. Thats not you.....or Abombination....just sayin.
Ignoring the unnecessary, unfair, untrue, and unwarranted ad hominem remark there, I believe we are having parallel conversations. When someone constantly complains about another class alluding to constant 40K-60K hits that people who play that class doesn't see all the time, asking for factual support is reasonable. If someone shows how this is a regular occurrence from all TR's, that's another matter entirely because that speaks to the initial issue of the complaint. If it is the case of top geared TR's in stealth with Lurker's, then rejoice since Lurker's is still being nerfed but thankfully not broken.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
And while he is formulating a reply to my post, consider the irony of him telling someone to watch a "video, realize they are wrong, and move on".....
Which is entertaining, but shows a challenge based on a difference in perspective. You appear to be saying "see, they happen, therefore they are common." I am saying "sure, they happen, but they are not common."
As we can see in this video that 40k crits are pretty common. That isn't a issue right? Rabbinicus you just kinda asked for proof of something you didn't believe and was proved wrong. I have a feeling that you don't like to be wrong and didn't anticipate proof of how 40k+ damage can happen and often.
I posted this on another thread. I have a dream. That today when I log in I will not encounter and Tene builds or get 1 shot by lashing blade.
We can have dreams right? Just 1 day be nice.
Actually, I have no problem being proven wrong. I'm a fan of learning.
But no, this doesn't prove that 40K crits are "pretty common." In fact it seems to prove that they are rather uncommon based on the parts of the video that I watched. I did not watch all of it, nor did I record the numbers for comparison - so I could still be easily proven wrong if someone is interested in doing that work.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
Despite the fact that he will NEVER admit it, I'm pretty sure he knows he was proven wrong( at least everyone else reading this knows it). So, rather than play "LAST WORD" with a guy who refuses to admit defeat on a forum, lets move on to the entertainment shall we? I call it "Rabbinicus the Black Knight"
Despite the fact that he will NEVER admit it, I'm pretty sure he knows he was proven wrong( at least everyone else reading this knows it). So, rather than play "LAST WORD" with a guy who refuses to admit defeat on a forum, lets move on to the entertainment shall we? I call it "Rabbinicus the Black Knight"
Please don't descend in ad hominem remarks.
If you think I am being unclear, I'm more than happy to discuss and clarify - in a civil manner. It would appear that we're having a parallel conversation, which is unfortunate. The devil remains in the details, and that appears to be where we are disagreeing. As I stated before in what I thought was a clear and concise manner, the issue is frequency/commonality. Or to use YouTube as an example...enjoy
Besides, you can't expect to wield supreme executive power because some watery tart threw a sword at you.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
This post has become indicative of the violence inherent in the system. I will stop repressing you now.
(I think we just lost 90% of the people reading this)
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
(and there go the rest)
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
Please note the use of the word "constantly" in the segment you quoted. It's not there for emphasis, but because some people have been complaining about how OP Tr's are because they "constantly" strike to insane amounts of damage.
I've said that before a number of times, so that's not really anything new or different. It's unfortunate that those conversations seem to keep extending into other parts of the forum from where they began, since things end up being repeated or presented without their prior context.
Ignoring the unnecessary, unfair, untrue, and unwarranted ad hominem remark there, I believe we are having parallel conversations. When someone constantly complains about another class alluding to constant 40K-60K hits that people who play that class doesn't see all the time, asking for factual support is reasonable. If someone shows how this is a regular occurrence from all TR's, that's another matter entirely because that speaks to the initial issue of the complaint. If it is the case of top geared TR's in stealth with Lurker's, then rejoice since Lurker's is still being nerfed but thankfully not broken.
Average rogues hit to hard that's the problem so when they are geared its 1 shot city and beyond to much damage.
Please don't descend in ad hominem remarks.
If you think I am being unclear, I'm more than happy to discuss and clarify - in a civil manner. It would appear that we're having a parallel conversation, which is unfortunate. The devil remains in the details, and that appears to be where we are disagreeing. As I stated before in what I thought was a clear and concise manner, the issue is frequency/commonality. Or to use YouTube as an example...enjoy
Besides, you can't expect to wield supreme executive power because some watery tart threw a sword at you.
You just think you are on some high horse don't you... We can see you like to debate and try to swindle out of being wrong. If you aren't a politician then run. You can go far.
Despite the fact that he will NEVER admit it, I'm pretty sure he knows he was proven wrong( at least everyone else reading this knows it). So, rather than play "LAST WORD" with a guy who refuses to admit defeat on a forum, lets move on to the entertainment shall we? I call it "Rabbinicus the Black Knight"
Despite the fact that he will NEVER admit it, I'm pretty sure he knows he was proven wrong( at least everyone else reading this knows it). So, rather than play "LAST WORD" with a guy who refuses to admit defeat on a forum, lets move on to the entertainment shall we? I call it "Rabbinicus the Black Knight"
In this epic duel you will notice the lack of Tene's. If the Green Knight had Tene's on the first time he punched the Black knight they would of proced and he would be standing the victor. Good to see what a non Tene' fight looks like epic indeed.
I would also like to point out that the TR in this video stacks ArP to the extreme. He hits hard on tanks also due to the high ArP build.
Which makes sense, since for PvP ArPen is a core stat to pump up. Otherwise you're going to have a heck of a time cracking through the crunchy shell to get to gooey insides, also known as "how many hits does it take to get to the center of the GF?"
Average rogues hit to hard that's the problem so when they are geared its 1 shot city and beyond to much damage.
Average TR's hit harder than the average CW, but they have to close to melee range to do it and stack ArPen/Recovery to boot. Being geared to one-shot a lot of players takes a lot of doing.
You just think you are on some high horse don't you... We can see you like to debate and try to swindle out of being wrong. If you aren't a politician then run. You can go far.
Please don't try to personalize things when you don't know the other people involved. I know that I value civility and politesse and I presume I am speaking other mature adults until proven otherwise.
If you would like to engage in a civil debate, I'm more than happy to do so.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
Which makes sense, since for PvP ArPen is a core stat to pump up. Otherwise you're going to have a heck of a time cracking through the crunchy shell to get to gooey insides, also known as "how many hits does it take to get to the center of the GF?"
Average TR's hit harder than the average CW, but they have to close to melee range to do it and stack ArPen/Recovery to boot. Being geared to one-shot a lot of players takes a lot of doing.
Please don't try to personalize things when you don't know the other people involved. I know that I value civility and politesse and I presume I am speaking other mature adults until proven otherwise.
If you would like to engage in a civil debate, I'm more than happy to do so.
Of course Average TR's hit harder then average CW's. A average TR can 1 shot you. The average damage is insane on a TR. Its not hard to get 20-30k crits on a TR just minimum gear is required compaired to some classes that never do that. If a TR is geared then he can 1 shot anyone. I don't think anyone is worried about top geared TR's I think everyone is annoyed with how any TR does tops in damage.
Of course Average TR's hit harder then average CW's. A average TR can 1 shot you. The average damage is insane on a TR. Its not hard to get 20-30k crits on a TR just minimum gear is required compaired to some classes that never do that. If a TR is geared then he can 1 shot anyone. I don't think anyone is worried about top geared TR's I think everyone is annoyed with how any TR does tops in damage.
So let's unpack this.
What is the average damage for an average TR and an average CW? What is an "average" TR or CW? Is it Rank 5 enchants? What skills? Or we could ignore that part since none of us have any kind of valid data to back this up and go with the part you seemingly missed from my post - that the TR has to get there first. If the CW is well played, the TR isn't going to get there unless the TR is also very well played.
Since you don't play a TR, you should really stop writing about what is and is not "hard" for a TR. By all means, share your insights on what you do play, which as I recall is only a GF. Finish leveling your TR to 60 and then feel free to share what you have learned by playing your TR about what is easy and what is hard.
When you say "I think everyone is annoyed with how any TR does tops in damage," what you're really saying is "I don't like how TR's outdamage my GF." We know this because you have written as much and admitted that, as well as the fact that you think that your GF should be able to do the most damage. Please stop. Just write without claiming to speak for anyone else.
Once again, the TR is a striker class. They are the best class in the game for putting out single target damage. CW's, GWF's, and GF's have solid AoE options that TR's lack. A well played TR will out-DPS a well played GF because that is how they are intended to work. So a TR doing more damage appears to be WAI, even if you don't like it.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
Hi NW, i just wanna say a thing...during pvp match i find some GF with Conqueror spec with 6 3% tenebrous and full socket R8 Hp at last 33-36k Hp....they just 1shot my TEAM.....running over 4-5k Lunging Strike and 4-6 proc of Tenebrous 2-3k every time and versus every1 (33-36k hp x3 /100 = 990 1080 dmg how is possible 2-3k? and no ****ing CD) U can ignore that type of ****....but belive me there is no way to beat that type of GF with load of defense power and insane Tenebrous procs.....
So let's unpack this.
What is the average damage for an average TR and an average CW? What is an "average" TR or CW? Is it Rank 5 enchants? What skills? Or we could ignore that part since none of us have any kind of valid data to back this up and go with the part you seemingly missed from my post - that the TR has to get there first. If the CW is well played, the TR isn't going to get there unless the TR is also very well played.
Since you don't play a TR, you should really stop writing about what is and is not "hard" for a TR. By all means, share your insights on what you do play, which as I recall is only a GF. Finish leveling your TR to 60 and then feel free to share what you have learned by playing your TR about what is easy and what is hard.
When you say "I think everyone is annoyed with how any TR does tops in damage," what you're really saying is "I don't like how TR's outdamage my GF." We know this because you have written as much and admitted that, as well as the fact that you think that your GF should be able to do the most damage. Please stop. Just write without claiming to speak for anyone else.
Once again, the TR is a striker class. They are the best class in the game for putting out single target damage. CW's, GWF's, and GF's have solid AoE options that TR's lack. A well played TR will out-DPS a well played GF because that is how they are intended to work. So a TR doing more damage appears to be WAI, even if you don't like it.
A TR should be tops in damage just not worlds apart. In PvE I don't expect to outdamage a TR if they are geared its what they do. Now lets talk about PvP yes a TR can out damage in rank 5's when other toons are in rank 7's. Give a TR rank 5 average gear and a normal vorpal and watch him nuke everything. 25k crits. Easy gear not a lot spent. When they get greater vorpals and actually gear there toon then its 40k+ The average Tr that can farm for 1 day will out damage much higher geared players cause of impact shot and lashing blade. If everyone had the same gear on a TR will shine because they are a far stronger class which is why they aren't in balance. Hence a TR with not great gear can nuke a cleric in T2 great gear with good enchants just because of his class.
Just ran into such a build, i suppose.
My GWF is nothing special, i admit. Basic heroic duelist set, 2k defense and around 3,4k power, with 6k estimated attack, and 24k hp.
Well, this GF was a real turtle, but somehow he kept charging at people, me included, stunlocking them prone, while hitting for 11k. Yeah, 11k. A guardian fighter. Then he was running in circle a bit, till he could attack again. Managed to kill him once cause i could circle him and hit him from behind, but were in at least 2-3 versus 1. In 1v1, i couldn't do a thing. It was just a prone fest with insane damage. Unuseful to say he was also a tank. Couldn't even go unstoppable. Iwas stunlocked and my 24k hp were over in no time. Looked like a TR with a shield. At the end of the match, he got 29 kills and 1 Death.
A TR should be tops in damage just not worlds apart. In PvE I don't expect to outdamage a TR if they are geared its what they do. Now lets talk about PvP yes a TR can out damage in rank 5's when other toons are in rank 7's. Give a TR rank 5 average gear and a normal vorpal and watch him nuke everything. 25k crits. Easy gear not a lot spent. When they get greater vorpals and actually gear there toon then its 40k+ The average Tr that can farm for 1 day will out damage much higher geared players cause of impact shot and lashing blade. If everyone had the same gear on a TR will shine because they are a far stronger class which is why they aren't in balance. Hence a TR with not great gear can nuke a cleric in T2 great gear with good enchants just because of his class.
I think that your standard for "stronger" is more than moderately skewed based on your stated goals of being able to do the most damage as a GF.
TR's are the best at single target damage, this is intentional as they are the sole Striker class in the game. This is what they do and I am not aware of anyone who has made any sort of valid argument otherwise. They don't have the ability to mitigate damage like a GF or dish out massive AoE damage like a CW or a GWF. Please note I am not mentioning DC's because I haven't leveled mine past 45 (I just wasn't enjoying playing him) and because I believe they have been unfairly limited (I am of course open to being educated about this by experienced DC players). This does not mean that they are "stronger" than other classes, but they are different.
While I am surprised and a little pleased that you have finally acknowledged that TR's should have the lead in damage, it is perfectly okay for them to be worlds apart or at least head and shoulders above most other classes. Again, this is the purpose of the TR - to deal damage. Everything about the class is shaped to facilitate this goal. They do not have the same kinds of bags of tricks that the CW's and GF's have, which balances out to some degree because they can kill things more quickly. They also have to kill things more quickly since if they're caught out of stealth they're dead in very short order.
As for your example of a TR taking out a top-geared cleric, I think that you and I both know that taking out a cleric in PvP isn't a challenge for most other classes unless the player is VERY good.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
Tenes let tank/hp builds get high damage. No matter if it has cooldown. It's a tank build. It's made to last. Which perfectly match a high damage mechanic that is profitable in long fights. No matter how you look at it, something that let's a tank hit for 11k, makes no sense. It's like being a tank with a skill that makes you inflict massive burst damage, just like a rogue. A tank that can DPS like a rogue doesn't sound balanced.
Tenes give the most bonus to high HP builds. Which means, even if you put tene's on the other classes, there would still be a huge difference. This difference eincreases the more you stack tenes together. So, stacking tenebrous, a GF or sentinel GWF, who have the most HP in the game and are specialized tanks, will progressively increase their advantage against other classes that are not specialized in tank/HP. Even if they use tene's too, cause their bonus from tene's is obviously lower.
Other classes can't counter tenes with enchants that increase your damage. Simple: a DPS can use only 1 enchant that increase his damage for a given %. They don't stack. Tanks can stack tenes until the bonus value double the one of regular DPS enchants (Greater plague fire, for example).
You either have to make them not stackable, or put a very low chance for them to trigger (like 5%).
Anything else, is obviously OP. It's just math and pure logic.
Every TR that I feel has "outplayed" (normally when their hitting 20k+) me in the last few days with huge lashing blades, I whisper them and discuss their build, I've yet to find someone that has told me they haven't been using lurkers or tene's.
Isn't the answer to stop whining about TR's till this patch comes in, then we can re-discuss.
Stop tene's from stacking, then we can re-discuss GF balance.
Every TR that I feel has "outplayed" (normally when their hitting 20k+) me in the last few days with huge lashing blades, I whisper them and discuss their build, I've yet to find someone that has told me they haven't been using lurkers or tene's.
Isn't the answer to stop whining about TR's till this patch comes in, then we can re-discuss.
Stop tene's from stacking, then we can re-discuss GF balance.
Yeah it seems like the common thing in all builds that people cry about on the forums is Tene's, sounds like it's not the classes that need to be changed but the enchant.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Comments
I think you just have a strong urge whatever you believe to prove that is right. If my buddy hits someone for only 1 40k lashing every match I consider that common. It happens every match. Didn't watch the vid but to see 2 big hits in it show how that it can happen a couple times in every match that makes it pretty common.
Its a shame they do OP damage like that. No wonder why a lot of players are annoyed getting hit all the time for big hits like that.
Since I generally use logic and facts in an argument, it tends to work out pretty well. This is another of those "I think so therefore it must be so" statements you seem to make regularly. So having watched more of that video, most of those crits were in the same ranges hit by many other geared characters - like say a GF who boasts of a 26K crit. In fact, most of them were more like 11K-14K. So when you say "I consider it common" that has a much weight as when you claim that things that aren't broken, bugged, or exploits are broken, bugged, or exploits. In other words, unsupported opinion.
And it's a shame when people who boast of doing more damage demand that others be weakened. Watch the video, realize you're wrong, move on.
Actually.....
so, I posted a screenshot(live video even) of a TR doing that kind of damage multiple times in ONE MATCH, and you now say " Hey, thats with Lurkers and Lashing and only a few TRs can do it.
So im guessing if someone posted a screenshot or video of it happening over and over from a dozen TRs or more, you would STILL stick to your story. My point was not to change your mind with the video: I don't believe any proof would do that. The point was so that actually reasonable people reading this could see it. Thats not you.....or Abombination....just sayin.
Very nicely done.
And while he is formulating a reply to my post, consider the irony of him telling someone to watch a "video, realize they are wrong, and move on".....
Oh and just a disclaimer: my argument with you does not in any way mean that I am in any agreement with abombination.......he's a special kind of bat **** crazy.
I posted this on another thread. I have a dream. That today when I log in I will not encounter and Tene builds or get 1 shot by lashing blade.
We can have dreams right? Just 1 day be nice.
Please note the use of the word "constantly" in the segment you quoted. It's not there for emphasis, but because some people have been complaining about how OP Tr's are because they "constantly" strike to insane amounts of damage.
I've said that before a number of times, so that's not really anything new or different. It's unfortunate that those conversations seem to keep extending into other parts of the forum from where they began, since things end up being repeated or presented without their prior context.
Ignoring the unnecessary, unfair, untrue, and unwarranted ad hominem remark there, I believe we are having parallel conversations. When someone constantly complains about another class alluding to constant 40K-60K hits that people who play that class doesn't see all the time, asking for factual support is reasonable. If someone shows how this is a regular occurrence from all TR's, that's another matter entirely because that speaks to the initial issue of the complaint. If it is the case of top geared TR's in stealth with Lurker's, then rejoice since Lurker's is still being nerfed but thankfully not broken.
Which is entertaining, but shows a challenge based on a difference in perspective. You appear to be saying "see, they happen, therefore they are common." I am saying "sure, they happen, but they are not common."
Actually, I have no problem being proven wrong. I'm a fan of learning.
But no, this doesn't prove that 40K crits are "pretty common." In fact it seems to prove that they are rather uncommon based on the parts of the video that I watched. I did not watch all of it, nor did I record the numbers for comparison - so I could still be easily proven wrong if someone is interested in doing that work.
I think this video sums up our discussion pretty well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhRUe-gz690
Please don't descend in ad hominem remarks.
If you think I am being unclear, I'm more than happy to discuss and clarify - in a civil manner. It would appear that we're having a parallel conversation, which is unfortunate. The devil remains in the details, and that appears to be where we are disagreeing. As I stated before in what I thought was a clear and concise manner, the issue is frequency/commonality. Or to use YouTube as an example...enjoy
Besides, you can't expect to wield supreme executive power because some watery tart threw a sword at you.
This post has become indicative of the violence inherent in the system. I will stop repressing you now.
(I think we just lost 90% of the people reading this)
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
(and there go the rest)
I would also like to point out that the TR in this video stacks ArP to the extreme. He hits hard on tanks also due to the high ArP build.
Average rogues hit to hard that's the problem so when they are geared its 1 shot city and beyond to much damage.
You just think you are on some high horse don't you... We can see you like to debate and try to swindle out of being wrong. If you aren't a politician then run. You can go far.
Amazing fight. Very suspenseful. Much better then the PvP we have in place. I was entertained.
In this epic duel you will notice the lack of Tene's. If the Green Knight had Tene's on the first time he punched the Black knight they would of proced and he would be standing the victor. Good to see what a non Tene' fight looks like epic indeed.
Take notes cryptic.
Which makes sense, since for PvP ArPen is a core stat to pump up. Otherwise you're going to have a heck of a time cracking through the crunchy shell to get to gooey insides, also known as "how many hits does it take to get to the center of the GF?"
Average TR's hit harder than the average CW, but they have to close to melee range to do it and stack ArPen/Recovery to boot. Being geared to one-shot a lot of players takes a lot of doing.
Please don't try to personalize things when you don't know the other people involved. I know that I value civility and politesse and I presume I am speaking other mature adults until proven otherwise.
If you would like to engage in a civil debate, I'm more than happy to do so.
Of course Average TR's hit harder then average CW's. A average TR can 1 shot you. The average damage is insane on a TR. Its not hard to get 20-30k crits on a TR just minimum gear is required compaired to some classes that never do that. If a TR is geared then he can 1 shot anyone. I don't think anyone is worried about top geared TR's I think everyone is annoyed with how any TR does tops in damage.
So let's unpack this.
What is the average damage for an average TR and an average CW? What is an "average" TR or CW? Is it Rank 5 enchants? What skills? Or we could ignore that part since none of us have any kind of valid data to back this up and go with the part you seemingly missed from my post - that the TR has to get there first. If the CW is well played, the TR isn't going to get there unless the TR is also very well played.
Since you don't play a TR, you should really stop writing about what is and is not "hard" for a TR. By all means, share your insights on what you do play, which as I recall is only a GF. Finish leveling your TR to 60 and then feel free to share what you have learned by playing your TR about what is easy and what is hard.
When you say "I think everyone is annoyed with how any TR does tops in damage," what you're really saying is "I don't like how TR's outdamage my GF." We know this because you have written as much and admitted that, as well as the fact that you think that your GF should be able to do the most damage. Please stop. Just write without claiming to speak for anyone else.
Once again, the TR is a striker class. They are the best class in the game for putting out single target damage. CW's, GWF's, and GF's have solid AoE options that TR's lack. A well played TR will out-DPS a well played GF because that is how they are intended to work. So a TR doing more damage appears to be WAI, even if you don't like it.
A TR should be tops in damage just not worlds apart. In PvE I don't expect to outdamage a TR if they are geared its what they do. Now lets talk about PvP yes a TR can out damage in rank 5's when other toons are in rank 7's. Give a TR rank 5 average gear and a normal vorpal and watch him nuke everything. 25k crits. Easy gear not a lot spent. When they get greater vorpals and actually gear there toon then its 40k+ The average Tr that can farm for 1 day will out damage much higher geared players cause of impact shot and lashing blade. If everyone had the same gear on a TR will shine because they are a far stronger class which is why they aren't in balance. Hence a TR with not great gear can nuke a cleric in T2 great gear with good enchants just because of his class.
My GWF is nothing special, i admit. Basic heroic duelist set, 2k defense and around 3,4k power, with 6k estimated attack, and 24k hp.
Well, this GF was a real turtle, but somehow he kept charging at people, me included, stunlocking them prone, while hitting for 11k. Yeah, 11k. A guardian fighter. Then he was running in circle a bit, till he could attack again. Managed to kill him once cause i could circle him and hit him from behind, but were in at least 2-3 versus 1. In 1v1, i couldn't do a thing. It was just a prone fest with insane damage. Unuseful to say he was also a tank. Couldn't even go unstoppable. Iwas stunlocked and my 24k hp were over in no time. Looked like a TR with a shield. At the end of the match, he got 29 kills and 1 Death.
Yeah, may be OP. Just a bit
I think that your standard for "stronger" is more than moderately skewed based on your stated goals of being able to do the most damage as a GF.
TR's are the best at single target damage, this is intentional as they are the sole Striker class in the game. This is what they do and I am not aware of anyone who has made any sort of valid argument otherwise. They don't have the ability to mitigate damage like a GF or dish out massive AoE damage like a CW or a GWF. Please note I am not mentioning DC's because I haven't leveled mine past 45 (I just wasn't enjoying playing him) and because I believe they have been unfairly limited (I am of course open to being educated about this by experienced DC players). This does not mean that they are "stronger" than other classes, but they are different.
While I am surprised and a little pleased that you have finally acknowledged that TR's should have the lead in damage, it is perfectly okay for them to be worlds apart or at least head and shoulders above most other classes. Again, this is the purpose of the TR - to deal damage. Everything about the class is shaped to facilitate this goal. They do not have the same kinds of bags of tricks that the CW's and GF's have, which balances out to some degree because they can kill things more quickly. They also have to kill things more quickly since if they're caught out of stealth they're dead in very short order.
As for your example of a TR taking out a top-geared cleric, I think that you and I both know that taking out a cleric in PvP isn't a challenge for most other classes unless the player is VERY good.
Tenes let tank/hp builds get high damage. No matter if it has cooldown. It's a tank build. It's made to last. Which perfectly match a high damage mechanic that is profitable in long fights. No matter how you look at it, something that let's a tank hit for 11k, makes no sense. It's like being a tank with a skill that makes you inflict massive burst damage, just like a rogue. A tank that can DPS like a rogue doesn't sound balanced.
Tenes give the most bonus to high HP builds. Which means, even if you put tene's on the other classes, there would still be a huge difference. This difference eincreases the more you stack tenes together. So, stacking tenebrous, a GF or sentinel GWF, who have the most HP in the game and are specialized tanks, will progressively increase their advantage against other classes that are not specialized in tank/HP. Even if they use tene's too, cause their bonus from tene's is obviously lower.
Other classes can't counter tenes with enchants that increase your damage. Simple: a DPS can use only 1 enchant that increase his damage for a given %. They don't stack. Tanks can stack tenes until the bonus value double the one of regular DPS enchants (Greater plague fire, for example).
You either have to make them not stackable, or put a very low chance for them to trigger (like 5%).
Anything else, is obviously OP. It's just math and pure logic.
Isn't the answer to stop whining about TR's till this patch comes in, then we can re-discuss.
Stop tene's from stacking, then we can re-discuss GF balance.
Yeah it seems like the common thing in all builds that people cry about on the forums is Tene's, sounds like it's not the classes that need to be changed but the enchant.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.