Lovely suggestions. Nukeyoo covered most of it but let me re-iterate:
1. Move away. Nukeyoo nailed this. Once I get hit I am more than likely not getting away.
And I keep telling you winning a fight doesn't mean you kill them. If you remove a person from the fight you win. Even if I manage to leave my team loses in that situation. Anything which outright makes an enemy run from the battle is out of balance.
2. Easilly said. Play a DC and try doing that. Until that point you have no idea what other classes face.
3. Attack!? Attack what!? The entire point is that control wizards and devoted clerics can not use basically any of their attacks without having a target! If I can't see them I can't attack!
4. Dodging is quite easy. I can say with confidence that the months doing epic dungeons being a tank cleric has me and other cleric friends from that day in age quite proficient dodging attacks and maintaining positioning.
Thing is I have 2 uses of dodge off the bat and it takes me roughly 1.5-2 seconds until I can dodge again. I can't dodge 8 CoS, 3 Enounters and a daily with possibly 4 dodges if I am lucky. As nukeyoo said, at the very least the CoS will be used as an opener to take down half my health before I can do anything about the situation. If CoS was a skill shot it would be one thing but as far as I am concerned it is 6-8 guaranteed hits (8-12K Damage minimum) and if I opt to take 6 hits I now have to contend with 3 encounters and a daily with 1 dodge, possibly two if I survive for 2 seconds.
Yeah...it's not a learn to play deal. There is nothing I can do to retailiate or protect myself against that. I can try to outheal...it's not effective.
So unless you guys are clerics please stop pretending that life is that easy. The whole point is CoS has clerics and control wizards as sitting ducks. You can argue that all you want but they aren't good arguments. The rogue is a highly offensive class which has defensive powers to completely negate the ability of two classes from defending themselves at all for long periods of time and when played correctly is completely untouchable.
There's no learning to play against it. Moderate skill and a decent build with or without tenebrous will render rogues invulnerable. I have been killed by a single rogue while fighting alongside two wizards because we couldn't target or damage him before his DPS killed us.
That's not balanced. Lowering his damage output will help...
But the ability to go completely immune to everything Control Wizards and Devoted Clerics can throw at them will still exist with these proposed solutions. That above the damage output was always the problem.
EDIT P.S. - The number one issue I face in PvP is actually generating divinity. No divinity = no healing astral shield. No attacking = No Divinity.
The subject was death because of CoS+Stealth:
1. You do not get killed by CoS+Stealth.
2. You do not get killed by CoS+Stealth.
3. You do not get killed by CoS+Stealth
4. You do not get killed by CoS+Stealth.
That should be clear enough for you and I pointed out the same thing to nukeyoo. You should have read my reply before you responded. Those were suggestions you can use against TRs. In my opinion if you are dying just from CoS+Stealth you do not know how to play and are unwilling to learn. In my opinion we have already covered exactly how biased you are against TRs. The idea of PVP is one team wins and one Team looses. One of the easiest ways to win is to cap the points and defend them. You should expect to die sometime and not cry over it because there is no invincible juggernaut class. Trs in reality are not an invincible juggernaut class despite how much you try to make TRs to look like they are an invincible juggernaut class. You should not be playing PVP if you are not willing to die. I played PVP four times today, won once and lost three times mainly because most of the teams had green gear. Did I cry about it and go about wanting nerfs? No, I moved on and finished the rest of my dailies. I rest my case.
Erm, There's no such thing as "Shocking Blade."
There's Shocking Execution and Lashing Blade. If you consider the changes made to Shocking Execution "small" (which happened over two months ago now) then by default changing CoS to diminish the health bar would be microscopic. Rogue have and still do complain about the Shocking Execution changes claiming it's worthless to have now.
And Lashing Blade might have had some small changes made to it (can't recall) but neither Shocking Execution or Lashing Blade has anything to do with the recent changes which were clearly an attempt to reduce the effectiveness of permastealth.
Furthermore #4 is more along the lines of a buff. It wasn't working as a control effect as it should have (bug) and as such cost rogues and other classes the bonus damage which is granted by attacking creatures effected by control effects.
So I made a mistake and wrote Shocking Blade instead of Shocking Execution. Thanks for pointing it out and I fixed it. Clearly you do not know the concept of comparing two things together. I never said the two nerfs were linked together. I was comparing the single Shocking Execution nerf to the 4 changes into this single nerf. I will also point out all four changes are rolled into one nerf. Shocking Execution was only one change and not multiple. One is smaller than four if you did not know. This means the nerf to Shocking Execution was small compared to these four changes. But wait you still want more nerfs. You also do not know how the permastealth rogue works otherwise you would know that the changes the devs are making will hurt all TRs more instead of just targeting permastealths.
I know what are the nerfs... those stuffs arent so important there
the bleed thing was something diferent... it always had 10 stack
To be honest I never really paid attention to bleed since it did not work properly when the game was first Open Beata. Bleed stacked more than 10 according to the TRs that have paid attention. In my opinion those four nerfs put together into one nerf does make a big nerf.
I dont want TR being nerfed to the ground... I want that they balance the game in a certain way that the best party for a dungeon would be one of each class...
Probably not enough what?? If it is not enough nerfs then I guess you really do want TRs nerfed into the ground like the rest of the ones crying for more nerfs. Very interesting how you stated otherwise.
I wonder what will be next to be nerfed. GFs? GWfs? CWs? I can not wait to see.:D I normally do not think about nerfing other classes because it hurts the game. I am changing my mind after seeing all the blind and biased individuals crying for TR nerfs that will hurt the game. I wonder what will happen if all the TRs pulled together to cry for nerfs. hmmmm. GFs? GWFs? CW? We will see in the long run.
Lovely suggestions. Nukeyoo covered most of it but let me re-iterate:
1. Move away. Nukeyoo nailed this. Once I get hit I am more than likely not getting away.
And I keep telling you winning a fight doesn't mean you kill them. If you remove a person from the fight you win. Even if I manage to leave my team loses in that situation. Anything which outright makes an enemy run from the battle is out of balance.
2. Easilly said. Play a DC and try doing that. Until that point you have no idea what other classes face.
3. Attack!? Attack what!? The entire point is that control wizards and devoted clerics can not use basically any of their attacks without having a target! If I can't see them I can't attack!
4. Dodging is quite easy. I can say with confidence that the months doing epic dungeons being a tank cleric has me and other cleric friends from that day in age quite proficient dodging attacks and maintaining positioning.
Thing is I have 2 uses of dodge off the bat and it takes me roughly 1.5-2 seconds until I can dodge again. I can't dodge 8 CoS, 3 Enounters and a daily with possibly 4 dodges if I am lucky. As nukeyoo said, at the very least the CoS will be used as an opener to take down half my health before I can do anything about the situation. If CoS was a skill shot it would be one thing but as far as I am concerned it is 6-8 guaranteed hits (8-12K Damage minimum) and if I opt to take 6 hits I now have to contend with 3 encounters and a daily with 1 dodge, possibly two if I survive for 2 seconds.
Yeah...it's not a learn to play deal. There is nothing I can do to retailiate or protect myself against that. I can try to outheal...it's not effective.
So unless you guys are clerics please stop pretending that life is that easy. The whole point is CoS has clerics and control wizards as sitting ducks. You can argue that all you want but they aren't good arguments. The rogue is a highly offensive class which has defensive powers to completely negate the ability of two classes from defending themselves at all for long periods of time and when played correctly is completely untouchable.
There's no learning to play against it. Moderate skill and a decent build with or without tenebrous will render rogues invulnerable. I have been killed by a single rogue while fighting alongside two wizards because we couldn't target or damage him before his DPS killed us.
That's not balanced. Lowering his damage output will help...
But the ability to go completely immune to everything Control Wizards and Devoted Clerics can throw at them will still exist with these proposed solutions. That above the damage output was always the problem.
EDIT P.S. - The number one issue I face in PvP is actually generating divinity. No divinity = no healing astral shield. No attacking = No Divinity.
Truth to be said, you have the same exact problems with almost all the other classes as a cleric.
What you're talking about is not a TR problem, it's a generic Cleric problem. You cannot retaliate nor protect yourself against any class because almost every other class can stun lock you or ignore your 2 CCs (1 knockback and 1 snare).
You're against perma stealth but you aren't actually speaking about perma stealth because perma-stealther don't have 3 offensive encounters and (unless "properly" enchanted) can't kill you with just 8 daggers (which requires 30 seconds to be fully effective again).
You're actually speaking about a regular TR with 1 or 2 defensive encounters (one of which may be Shadow Strike and the other Bait and Switch or Impossible to Catch) and that can kill you with a Lashing Blade (20s cooldown) from stealth (100% crit chance).
The problem is that none of the proposed nerf did have any major impact on this build. With the PvP set you were still able to throw all the 8 daggers while stealthed and then use Shadow Strike or Lurker Assault and basically oneshot a DC/CW with Lashing Blade (or Shoking Execution while in stealth).
If you were looking for a nerf for the perma stealth, these ones could have some very minor impacts to that build. But if you were hoping that, with such a changes, you had more chances against a TR (or a GF/GWF/CW for what it matter), sorry but you were (are) completely wrong.
Truth to be said, you have the same exact problems with almost all the other classes as a cleric.
What you're talking about is not a TR problem, it's a generic Cleric problem. You cannot retaliate nor protect yourself against any class because almost every other class can stun lock you or ignore your 2 CCs (1 knockback and 1 snare).
You're against perma stealth but you aren't actually speaking about perma stealth because perma-stealther don't have 3 offensive encounters and (unless "properly" enchanted) can't kill you with just 8 daggers (which requires 30 seconds to be fully effective again).
You're actually speaking about a regular TR with 1 or 2 defensive encounters (one of which may be Shadow Strike and the other Bait and Switch or Impossible to Catch) and that can kill you with a Lashing Blade (20s cooldown) from stealth (100% crit chance).
The problem is that none of the proposed nerf did have any major impact on this build. With the PvP set you were still able to throw all the 8 daggers while stealthed and then use Shadow Strike or Lurker Assault and basically oneshot a DC/CW with Lashing Blade (or Shoking Execution while in stealth).
If you were looking for a nerf for the perma stealth, these ones could have some very minor impacts to that build. But if you were hoping that, with such a changes, you had more chances against a TR (or a GF/GWF/CW for what it matter), sorry but you were (are) completely wrong.
You are completely correct. Is ambisinisterr asking for GF Nerfs or GWF Nerfs or CW Nerfs or his class to be buffed? No, ambisinisterr only wants the TRs to be nerfed into the ground and ambisinisterr celebrates when it looks like it is happening.
Lovely suggestions. Nukeyoo covered most of it but let me re-iterate:
1. Move away. Nukeyoo nailed this. Once I get hit I am more than likely not getting away.
And I keep telling you winning a fight doesn't mean you kill them. If you remove a person from the fight you win. Even if I manage to leave my team loses in that situation. Anything which outright makes an enemy run from the battle is out of balance.
Isn't that only the case when you are alone? Why is a DC alone on a point? Just dodge once after the 3rd dagger or so while your melee teammate runs around swinging his sword, he'll find him and trash him.
3. Attack!? Attack what!? The entire point is that control wizards and devoted clerics can not use basically any of their attacks without having a target! If I can't see them I can't attack!
Sunburst, Chains of Blinding light, dodge to reset CoS, run around a put a mark on them. I agree that you have the disadvantage of not being able to strike empty air like melee classes, but you do have AoE to compensate...somewhat.
(Casting time may be upped a little to balance it, imo)
4. Dodging is quite easy. I can say with confidence that the months doing epic dungeons being a tank cleric has me and other cleric friends from that day in age quite proficient dodging attacks and maintaining positioning.
Thing is I have 2 uses of dodge off the bat and it takes me roughly 1.5-2 seconds until I can dodge again. I can't dodge 8 CoS, 3 Enounters and a daily with possibly 4 dodges if I am lucky. As nukeyoo said, at the very least the CoS will be used as an opener to take down half my health before I can do anything about the situation. If CoS was a skill shot it would be one thing but as far as I am concerned it is 6-8 guaranteed hits (8-12K Damage minimum) and if I opt to take 6 hits I now have to contend with 3 encounters and a daily with 1 dodge, possibly two if I survive for 2 seconds.
Yeah...it's not a learn to play deal. There is nothing I can do to retailiate or protect myself against that. I can try to outheal...it's not effective.
So unless you guys are clerics please stop pretending that life is that easy. The whole point is CoS has clerics and control wizards as sitting ducks. You can argue that all you want but they aren't good arguments. The rogue is a highly offensive class which has defensive powers to completely negate the ability of two classes from defending themselves at all for long periods of time and when played correctly is completely untouchable.
There's no learning to play against it. Moderate skill and a decent build with or without tenebrous will render rogues invulnerable. I have been killed by a single rogue while fighting alongside two wizards because we couldn't target or damage him before his DPS killed us.
And none of those wizards managed to pull of an AoE effect? It only takes one conduit of ice to keep track of the TR and shred his stealth meter.
I'm not saying L2P, but I am saying that these things do work against TR's.
Yes and no. The rogue's damage goes up exponentially in melee range. A control Wizard could always lift them up into the air and end the threat with that but Devoted Clerics are too squishy to sustain melee blows from Trickster Rogues and lack any form of CC which would allow them to remain in melee range of a Trickster Rogue without taking damage.
Furthermore that entire concept goes out the window when you also couple in ItC. That's the nail on the coffin which destroys the risk rogues have to take when going within melee range of Control Wizards and Devoted Clerics.
First, TR stealth skip wasnt a fool proof plan in Fardelver even, there where mobs aggroing TRs through stealth, then attacking when stealth broke. The same goes for the open world dungeons and other encounters, some mobs see you and attack you while in stealth attacking them. It may work at times, but thats something that can get fixed without doing anything about PvP stealth. Just give the mobs you like stealth detection and its fixed.
Anyways, now all of a sudden the complaining isnt about CoS+Stealth anymore, now it's about TRs doing to much melee damage. Make up your mind ffs. You probably never use, FmF or AS on your DC I suspect, or sunburst for that matter. If the rogue stays stealthed to confuse you, his damage will come from sly flourish most likely. It can be countered by a Div-FmF to his face or an AS.
If he pops his stealth to deal encounter damage, then stealth isnt an issue at all anymore is it? Wasnt that what the complaining was about? Again, make up your mind.
And so he pops ItC, then you should stop stressing and start thinking about what to do. Like uhm, dodge 2 times to avoid his damage or run around if you are away from melee. Running away doesnt mean running off, it means running in a circle around the node. And again, this cant be stressed enough ont he forums, your issue isnt with TRs as a cleric, its with every class really that can lock you out from your heals, which is every class. I cant count the times I've kept a DC locked down from 100%-0% on my CW, GF or GWF. They are too easy to kill. Atleast a rogue cant lock them down in the same way.
You also said that if you run are forced to run off you are taken out of the fight and no use to your team. Then I ask you, what kinda trash teams do you play with that dont protect their DC? Its a team based setting in PvP, use it. Dont be that guy running off in panic, run to your team mates and have them help you. Player/team skill or lack there off is not something to balance classes around.
TRs are also silly easy with a CW, you have one at-will that ruins their whole day, Ray of Frost. You dont need to channel it for the full duration, you just need to tap it from time to time during the fight and kite them to death. Conduit of Ice also helps, since it keeps refreshing chill aswell as debuffing their mitigation (if specced for it). Without the old 12 charge CoS they will be even easier to kite.
@Thalesamr: There is no reason to lower TR damage just so the GWF can catch up, its not the games fault or the TR communities fault you didnt do your research on which role each class has. You rolled a hybrid, not a pure striker. You cant have everything on a class.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited August 2013
Assuming is bad. I actually do not like FmF at all and to believe any cleric doesn't have AS on...well...that's just an insult.
Clerics and Wizards are RANGED classes. They are ranged for a reason. My goal against any class is to keep as far away as possible so going in close is a bad idea...yet the only way to deal with rogues in stealth. It's merely a counter-intuitive concept. In order for me to deal with a rogue that is attacking me from a range I have to go within melee range...in which they have a repetuir of even higher damaging abilities. Hardly fair or logical.
Chains would be the all around yay I can deal with permastealth rogues except for one key problem: it's only a bind. As such it does absolutely nothing except diminish the stealth meter and it will virtually never reduce it enough to bring them out of stealth unless the rogue is just plain bad.
It's very clear you guys don't play Control Wizards and Devoted Clerics.
This is the order of operations:
Rogue nearly gets within range: he pops stealth and peppers you with daggers.
You choose the option to fight, you get within range so that you can retaliate and he pops ItC. Congratulations you now can not CC or Damage him. Yippee.
If you manage to live past that he goes back into stealth still without any DoT on him because of ItC.
Rinse and repeat.
You make it sound like all rogues are horribly bad. Even a bad rogue can alternate these effects and effectively prevent any damage from being taken. To think otherwise is pure ignorance and shows that you have never played from the other side. Sure things always seem hard from the other side of the fence but the bottom line is it takes only a moderate amount of playskill to keep at a distance until ItC is up.
And that moderate amount of playskill can't be countered by wizards and clerics. Doesn't matter how good the DC/CW is as long as they can't target a rogue in stealth or do anything while ItC is up this issue will exist. Sure if I have a few allies, preferably a GF/GWF it's more manageable, but that's true of any class and can't be a basis for arguments. Control Wizards and Devoted Clerics aren't supposed to be holding the hands of other players in order to leave the spawn area. It should help but it shouldn't be required and most certainly not because they can't hope to survive past 15 seconds without a hand to hold because one class can make themselves permanently invulnerable to them.
Assuming is bad. I actually do not like FmF at all and to believe any cleric doesn't have AS on...well...that's just an insult.
Clerics and Wizards are RANGED classes. They are ranged for a reason. My goal against any class is to keep as far away as possible so going in close is a bad idea...yet the only way to deal with rogues in stealth. It's merely a counter-intuitive concept. In order for me to deal with a rogue that is attacking me from a range I have to go within melee range...in which they have a repetuir of even higher damaging abilities. Hardly fair or logical.
Chains would be the all around yay I can deal with permastealth rogues except for one key problem: it's only a bind. As such it does absolutely nothing except diminish the stealth meter and it will virtually never reduce it enough to bring them out of stealth unless the rogue is just plain bad.
It's very clear you guys don't play Control Wizards and Devoted Clerics.
This is the order of operations:
Rogue nearly gets within range: he pops stealth and peppers you with daggers.
You choose the option to fight, you get within range so that you can retaliate and he pops ItC. Congratulations you now can not CC or Damage him. Yippee.
If you manage to live past that he goes back into stealth still without any DoT on him because of ItC.
Rinse and repeat.
You make it sound like all rogues are horribly bad. Even a bad rogue can alternate these effects and effectively prevent any damage from being taken. To think otherwise is pure ignorance and shows that you have never played from the other side. Sure things always seem hard from the other side of the fence but the bottom line is it takes only a moderate amount of playskill to keep at a distance until ItC is up.
And that moderate amount of playskill can't be countered by wizards and clerics. Doesn't matter how good the DC/CW is as long as they can't target a rogue in stealth or do anything while ItC is up this issue will exist. Sure if I have a few allies, preferably a GF/GWF it's more manageable, but that's true of any class and can't be a basis for arguments. Control Wizards and Devoted Clerics aren't supposed to be holding the hands of other players in order to leave the spawn area. It should help but it shouldn't be required and most certainly not because they can't hope to survive past 15 seconds without a hand to hold because one class can make themselves permanently invulnerable to them.
You make it seem all rouges are invincible, invulnerable, and all powerful like gods. When in reality they are not at all and can be defeated. In reality there is not a juggernaut class in this game despite how much you try to make TRs look like one.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited August 2013
Get on a DC/CW and tell me they are not a juggernaught without a GF/GWF/TR next to you.
Get on a DC/CW and tell me they are not a juggernaught without a GF/GWF/TR next to you.
Guess you do not know the meaning of the word juggernaut.
juggernaut
n.
1. An overwhelming, advancing force that crushes or seems to crush everything in its path:
2. any large, overpowering, destructive force or object.
Every class has its vulnerabilities and advantages. There is not a single class that is invincible/invulnerable. Interesting how you mention GFs/GWFs with TRs and are not wanting them nerfed like you want TRs. This nerf and any other nerfs are just going to make the game more unbalanced.
Clerics and Wizards are RANGED classes. They are ranged for a reason. My goal against any class is to keep as far away as possible so going in close is a bad idea...yet the only way to deal with rogues in stealth. It's merely a counter-intuitive concept. In order for me to deal with a rogue that is attacking me from a range I have to go within melee range...in which they have a repetuir of even higher damaging abilities. Hardly fair or logical.
The TR needs to melee to finish you off, you have skills to prevent him coming close and you don't have to see him in order to use them. Why is that unfair and illogical?
Control Wizards and Devoted Clerics aren't supposed to be holding the hands of other players in order to leave the spawn area. It should help but it shouldn't be required and most certainly not because they can't hope to survive past 15 seconds without a hand to hold because one class can make themselves permanently invulnerable to them.
The other classes are supposed to protect the support classes, you can't blame one class for people not living up to that expectation.
Truth to be said ambisinisterr, you have the same exact problems with almost all the other classes as a cleric.
What you're talking about is not a TR problem, it's a generic Cleric problem. You cannot retaliate nor protect yourself against any class because almost every other class can stun lock you or ignore your 2 CCs (1 knockback and 1 snare).
You're against perma stealth but you aren't actually speaking about perma stealth because perma-stealther don't have 3 offensive encounters and (unless "properly" enchanted) can't kill you with just 8 daggers (which requires 30 seconds to be fully effective again).
You're actually speaking about a regular TR with 1 or 2 defensive encounters (one of which may be Shadow Strike and the other Bait and Switch or Impossible to Catch) and that can kill you with a Lashing Blade (20s cooldown) from stealth (100% crit chance).
The problem is that none of the proposed nerf did have any major impact on this build. With the PvP set you were still able to throw all the 8 daggers while stealthed and then use Shadow Strike or Lurker Assault and basically oneshot a DC/CW with Lashing Blade (or Shoking Execution while in stealth).
If you were looking for a nerf for the perma stealth, these ones could have some very minor impacts to that build. But if you were hoping that, with such a changes, you had more chances against a TR (or a GF/GWF/CW for what it matter), sorry but you were (are) completely wrong.
In my opinion this is a very valid response that certain people will continue to ignore and argue against. Those people want TRs nerfed into the ground even if it hurts the game.
Isn't that only the case when you are alone? Why is a DC alone on a point? Just dodge once after the 3rd dagger or so while your melee teammate runs around swinging his sword, he'll find him and trash him.
Sunburst, Chains of Blinding light, dodge to reset CoS, run around a put a mark on them. I agree that you have the disadvantage of not being able to strike empty air like melee classes, but you do have AoE to compensate...somewhat.
(Casting time may be upped a little to balance it, imo)
And none of those wizards managed to pull of an AoE effect? It only takes one conduit of ice to keep track of the TR and shred his stealth meter.
In my opinion these are some very valid questions that may never be fully answered because they want to ruin the game by nerfing TRs into the ground instead of balancing it.
Anyways, now all of a sudden the complaining isnt about CoS+Stealth anymore, now it's about TRs doing to much melee damage. Make up your mind ffs. You probably never use, FmF or AS on your DC I suspect, or sunburst for that matter. If the rogue stays stealthed to confuse you, his damage will come from sly flourish most likely. It can be countered by a Div-FmF to his face or an AS.
A very valid observation in my opinion. In my opinion the reason for the change in complaining was because the individual is so biased against TRs. The individual wants any and every excuse to try to promote an agenda of nerfing TRs even if it will ruin the game further. The DC nerf hurt the game and the devs adjusted difficulty in a later patch lowering it. I wonder if the difficulty of the PVE portion will be lowered again because of this nerf to TRs. We will see.
The TR needs to melee to finish you off, you have skills to prevent him coming close and you don't have to see him in order to use them. Why is that unfair and illogical?
In my opinion it is not unfair or illogical in reality. Some people will want TRs nerfed no matter what and will give any excuse. It will just lead to the game being ruined because the TRs will retaliate and cry for this or that to be nerfed. An unending cycle that with destroy the game.
The other classes are supposed to protect the support classes, you can't blame one class for people not living up to that expectation.
In my opinion you are correct that the other classes are suppose to protect the support class and there is no valid reason to blame one class for team mate not living up to the that expectation. I have also seen some DCs who were basically invincible toward TRs in PVP. I hate to say it but I have also been killed off repeatedly by a DC during a PVP match on the Dragon shard. Lucy was the DC's name and I wonder what gear/build he or she was using. DCs can survive if the know how too, but they still should be protected by the other classes.
Assuming is bad. I actually do not like FmF at all and to believe any cleric doesn't have AS on...well...that's just an insult.
Clerics and Wizards are RANGED classes. They are ranged for a reason. My goal against any class is to keep as far away as possible so going in close is a bad idea...yet the only way to deal with rogues in stealth. It's merely a counter-intuitive concept. In order for me to deal with a rogue that is attacking me from a range I have to go within melee range...in which they have a repetuir of even higher damaging abilities. Hardly fair or logical.
Wait wait wait what? So you are refusing to use a valid skill i.e FmF, a skill that is great against rogues, and you have the nerve to go call for nerfs? You arent even using what is within your arsenal to battle the TR and you still call for nerfs!? Hypocrisy, straight out hypocrisy.
FmF along with BotS are absolutley mindblowing for battling rogues. They are both DoTs which lets you move freely while still dealing damage. And FmF turns whoever you cast it on into a healing battery. The damage they will deal to you while in melee range if you have FmF on them wont even be noticable. And with the right feats you should run around with the same mitigation as a GF, or close to it. So with FmF and AS you will br able to last long against a TR. But if you arent using the skills given to you, thats not their fault, its yours and you should be in no place asking for nerfs to them if you arent using the skills you have open for your class.
You have also strayed further from the subject that was CoS+stealth killing you. Now its just about TRs killing you in general.
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cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
The TR needs to melee to finish you off, you have skills to prevent him coming close and you don't have to see him in order to use them. Why is that unfair and illogical?
The other classes are supposed to protect the support classes, you can't blame one class for people not living up to that expectation.
People need to stop treating Domination like Deathmatch... I barely ever play my DC in PVP.... but decided I would today... even when the numbnuts melee ran off I followed them... and stayed alive pretty much anytime I was close to one of them. Doing what I do best... keeping my Melee classes alive... now the CWs and TRs died like normal (surprisingly the CWs stayed alive longer than ALL but one TR who was geared to the teeth).
So as a TR as my main... my GF as my tank (I still suck with him) I found my experience this morning in PVP much easier with my DC than I do with my TR. It's a lot less work to prevent dieing with my DC. Just follow and stop thinking I can get kills without support... my DC 9.4K won all but 1 match... did I get 2 for 1s like I do with my TR... no... my teams however, won more often.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
The TR needs to melee to finish you off, you have skills to prevent him coming close and you don't have to see him in order to use them. Why is that unfair and illogical?
Not true.
Devoted Clerics have one spell to prevent rogues from coming into melee range without requiring a target and it's a very short duration bind.
Control Wizards have a couple which can prevent enemies from reaching them but those are mainly dailies. I can't recall any encounter powers which prevent targets from reaching Control Wizards without a target.
In the end I become more and more convinced you guys play rogues and notice when your play errors are tossed back into your face which I surely have done on more than one occassion...
But the story remains the same...
For me to survive more than a few seconds against a rogue I have to rely on rogues committing play errors because the utility they have is completely unbeatable as long as they maintain a basic level of playskill. They don't have to be amazing to avoid taking a single point of damage they merely have to understand alternating between stealth and ItC in order to render TWO classes dead in the water.
If they couldn't remain at a distance throwing knives without allowing me to retaliate I would be fine. That's what I argue for. But as it stands I can fight every other class with Control Wizards and Clerics and feel like I have a fair fight. I can fight as any other class against any other class and feel like I have a fair fight. Except when I face a rogue.
CW's can freeze GF's so while I *can try* to block much of their CC they can easily render GF's useless. GWF's can be killed easily enough if CW's time their CC before/between unstoppable. Devoted Clerics do need a bit of a buff to bring them up to par with the other classes.
Rogues are a bit more of a challenge to both classes to contend with but it's purely because they use the same tricks. The thing is unlike CW's and DC's the tankiness of GF and GWF's as well as will at least give them a fighting chance. Without being spec'd for PvP on my Guardian Fighter (no chain prones) I will normally simply stalemate against rogues simply by making CoS 100% ineffective and CCing them when they come within range.
That's why I don't call for changes to the other classes. I do think DC's need a buff to be more viable but this problem goes way above and beyond clerics. The problem remains the ability for all but the worst rogues to alternate between ItC in mellee range and CoS in stealth to be the class with the best defense and the most offense unless there is at least three enemies. It's an issue for every class to contend with but the issue is only most prevalent on CW's and DC's because they lack the ability to defend themselves against such tactics.
This is more like Rock, Paper, Pickaxe than Rock, Paper, Scissors. The rogues are the strongest class in the game. It supplies the most offense and defense in one package with only one weakness: requiring moderate playskill.
And as long as you guys don't expereince the other side you will always argue it's easier to contend with than it is in reality. Prove me wrong. Show me you can defeat rogues with no problem. Until then you are simply ignoring the other side of the fence.
Devoted Clerics have one spell to prevent rogues from coming into melee range without requiring a target and it's a very short duration bind.
Control Wizards have a couple which can prevent enemies from reaching them but those are mainly dailies. I can't recall any encounter powers which prevent targets from reaching Control Wizards without a target.
In the end I become more and more convinced you guys play rogues and notice when your play errors are tossed back into your face which I surely have done on more than one occassion...
But the story remains the same...
For me to survive more than a few seconds against a rogue I have to rely on rogues committing play errors because the utility they have is completely unbeatable as long as they maintain a basic level of playskill. They don't have to be amazing to avoid taking a single point of damage they merely have to understand alternating between stealth and ItC in order to render TWO classes dead in the water.
If they couldn't remain at a distance throwing knives without allowing me to retaliate I would be fine. That's what I argue for. But as it stands I can fight every other class with Control Wizards and Clerics and feel like I have a fair fight. I can fight as any other class against any other class and feel like I have a fair fight. Except when I face a rogue.
CW's can freeze GF's so while I *can try* to block much of their CC they can easily render GF's useless. GWF's can be killed easily enough if CW's time their CC before/between unstoppable. Devoted Clerics do need a bit of a buff to bring them up to par with the other classes.
Rogues are a bit more of a challenge to both classes to contend with but it's purely because they use the same tricks. The thing is unlike CW's and DC's the tankiness of GF and GWF's as well as will at least give them a fighting chance. Without being spec'd for PvP on my Guardian Fighter (no chain prones) I will normally simply stalemate against rogues simply by making CoS 100% ineffective and CCing them when they come within range.
That's why I don't call for changes to the other classes. I do think DC's need a buff to be more viable but this problem goes way above and beyond clerics. The problem remains the ability for all but the worst rogues to alternate between ItC in mellee range and CoS in stealth to be the class with the best defense and the most offense unless there is at least three enemies. It's an issue for every class to contend with but the issue is only most prevalent on CW's and DC's because they lack the ability to defend themselves against such tactics.
This is more like Rock, Paper, Pickaxe than Rock, Paper, Scissors. The rogues are the strongest class in the game. It supplies the most offense and defense in one package with only one weakness: requiring moderate playskill.
And as long as you guys don't expereince the other side you will always argue it's easier to contend with than it is in reality. Prove me wrong. Show me you can defeat rogues with no problem. Until then you are simply ignoring the other side of the fence.
So you finally admit that DCs need a buff. I will make a DC if this buff ever occurs. I have been mainly saying DCs need a buff anyways. The rogue class has the most offense but it does not have the most defense. Rogues come no were close to GFs. GFs have the ability to block anything if they know how to use there character correctly. Rogues have low armor and can be killed in stealth even with ITC by players who know how to do it.
Why don't you take your own advice and play as a rogue against GFs, GWFs, DCs, and CWs who know what they are doing. You will see just how hard it is to kill them. Prove me wrong. Until then you are simply ignoring the other side of the fence and crying for nerfs with no real knowledge of Rogues. Prove me wrong. I have 2 more slots open, today I will start a CW.
So you finally admit that DCs need a buff. I will make a DC if this buff ever occurs. I have been mainly saying DCs need a buff anyways. The rogue class has the most offense but it does not have the most defense. Rogues come no were close to GFs. GFs have the ability to block anything if they know how to use there character correctly. Rogues have low armor and can be killed in stealth even with ITC by players who know how to do it.
Why don't you take your own advice and play as a rogue against GFs, GWFs, DCs, and CWs who know what they are doing. You will see just how hard it is to kill them. Prove me wrong. Until then you are simply ignoring the other side of the fence and crying for nerfs with no real knowledge of Rogues. Prove me wrong. I have 2 more slots open, today I will start a CW.
Look at my discussions in other threads and stop putting words in my mouth.
I have long said DC's need a buff but they need a buff to bring them on par.
Conversely rogues need a debuff to bring them on par.
and why is paper then complaining that pickaxe beats it?
isnt it supposed to be like that?
Pickaxe beats rock and would be rough against paper. Rogues can and do contend quite well against Gf's and GWF's. It's about an even match if there's good playskill. First person to mess up and allow a hit will win.
Pickaxe beats rock and would be rough against paper.
well, when you hit paper with a pickaxe, its destroyed, kinda lika with a scissors, just not with a clear cut but a big hole
and for the pickaxe, it depends on the pickaxe and the stone
to use minecraftterms: whe nyou use a wooden pickaxe to farm obsidian, youre doing something very wrong and lose your pickaxe soon. when you use your diamond pickaxe to farm normal stone, the stone has no chance
translated into neverwinter: its a gear thing and has nothing to do with the classes
but what i find funny is that you say that rogues and GF/GWFs are equal yet you have no problems with GF/GWFs...
is it just me or does that sound REALLY unlogic?
Ah well
-Desstzo
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cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
So you finally admit that DCs need a buff. I will make a DC if this buff ever occurs. I have been mainly saying DCs need a buff anyways. The rogue class has the most offense but it does not have the most defense. Rogues come no were close to GFs. GFs have the ability to block anything if they know how to use there character correctly. Rogues have low armor and can be killed in stealth even with ITC by players who know how to do it.
Why don't you take your own advice and play as a rogue against GFs, GWFs, DCs, and CWs who know what they are doing. You will see just how hard it is to kill them. Prove me wrong. Until then you are simply ignoring the other side of the fence and crying for nerfs with no real knowledge of Rogues. Prove me wrong. I have 2 more slots open, today I will start a CW.
I deleted my CW and my GWF to make a second TR way back when they announced thee nerf to Shocking Execution. I can tell you out of all the classes I've levelled the CW was by far the fastest... going from 0 to 30 in 2 days just doing the missions. granted it was a weekend... so probably played 12 hours... but SERIOUSLY. The same amount of time playing I was only able to get the GWF to 19.
GF was the toon I least died with SO easy...
DC was faster than my two TRs... but I was REALLY learning my 2 TRs so... not sure how it would take me today.
well, when you hit paper with a pickaxe, its destroyed, kinda lika with a scissors, just not with a clear cut but a big hole
and for the pickaxe, it depends on the pickaxe and the stone
to use minecraftterms: whe nyou use a wooden pickaxe to farm obsidian, youre doing something very wrong and lose your pickaxe soon. when you use your diamond pickaxe to farm normal stone, the stone has no chance
translated into neverwinter: its a gear thing and has nothing to do with the classes
but what i find funny is that you say that rogues and GF/GWFs are equal yet you have no problems with GF/GWFs...
is it just me or does that sound REALLY unlogic?
Ah well
-Desstzo
I could not agree more. Read all the other posts in the thread to get a better picture.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
but what i find funny is that you say that rogues and GF/GWFs are equal yet you have no problems with GF/GWFs...
is it just me or does that sound REALLY unlogic?
It's quite simple: I can play around GF and GWF. As a Cleric I will always die to them without assistance but I can play around them and as previously stated as a CW playskill will allow easy managability of both GF's and GWF's.
Since your main point of contension is how I can say I do not have a major problem against GF's and GWF's as a Cleric I'll stick to that:
I can dodge the knockdowns. I can use chains to keep them at a distance. I can bide time until allies arrive or hold my own until I make a play error.
I do not like that once I am on the ground against a GF I will be in a perpetual chain CC but it can at the very least be dodged and managed to a point. My own ability to kite their attacks and dodge at key moments is why I am not overly concerned with Guardian Fighters and Great Weapon Fighters being "OP."
I will basically never be able to kill a GF or GWF. They simply are able to take too much damage and as a cleric I will almost never get the chance to do enough damage to a GF or GWF in order to kill them on my own before my team or their team arrives although I have done so on rare occassions.
Learn to play comments have basically become a bad juju topic in the rogue threads but for questioning my ability to play as much as the rogues have it should be pretty evident that my disposition towards GF's and GWF's who are often considered OP tis day in age is proof I am more than capable of playing well.
I am nothing if not skilled at kiting. I can kite most GF's and GWF's for minutes at a time.
Whereas a Rogue, as I have repeated time and time again, could kill me straight up with CoS before the recent changes. The recent changes no doubt have stopped that, great, but instead of being outright dead from CoS I'll still have half of my HP gone without being able to retaliate or kite effectively. That might be fine if not for the second factor: ItC allowing them to get within melee range and prevent me from doing anything other than to dodge. If by some means I manage to kite and survive I simply get to look forward to more CoS from stealth and another wave of ItC encounter powers.
I have no way to counter that. No amount of kiting will contend with that. No amount of playskill can save me from a quick death because the amount of damage I can take and the amount of times I can dodge are far less than a rogue's damage output and the number of daggers and encounter powers a rogue can dish my way.
Why do I voice discontent at this? Simple: there's no counter. There's no defensive action that will prolong my dead more than seconds, and going on the offense is like bringing a knife to a gunfight.
As far as I see it there's only a few things which could solve this balance issue:
1) Remove/Alter ItC. I do not like this idea personally because it is a rogue's main defense against CC abilities. I think we can agree altering this skill would leave rogues near defensless.
2) Make rogues targetable by ranged at-will (not encounter) attack while in stealth. Don't even need to shadow them but simply allow ranged attacks to still attack near where players think the rogue is with a chance of hitting them. However this would ruin much of the defensive nature of Stealth which I believe we can agree is bad. Rogues do need the defensive utilities.
3) Make CoS a skill shot so I can kite and dodge the attacks. I like this but as I am not sure of the feasibility I haven't pushed it.
4) The change I have called for numerous times in the last few months: make CoS diminish the stealth bar. If rogues want to remain in stealth defensively let them. If they want to do damage in melee where I can see and target them have it remain a high risk high reward situation. If they want to use CoS in stealth then by all means allow them to but the trade off should be reduced time in stealth to balance the high reward and low risk nature of the tactic.
I am hardly being unfair about this. I am telling you how it is for a CW and DC. A rogue with a basic understanding of timing can easily be 100% invulnerable and kill multiple CW's and DC's without taking a scratch.
Such a change wouldn't nerf the rogue to the ground. All it would do is make them think more carefully about their choices in tactic. They could still empty all of their CoS shots into me but they would have to be prepared for the fact they would become vulnerable and need to pop ItC.
Furthermore I agree that diminishing stealth on melee At-Wills would hurt the rogues tremendously both in PvP and PvE however using CoS from stealth in PvE is just not common at all and would have a very minimal impact.
My requests are about balance. About allowing playskill to determine the decisiveness of death. I kill many wizards as a GF because of my own playskill or their lack of it. The same goes for my cleric against GF's and GWF's. But when it comes to rogues it's not a matter of if, in fact it's not even a matter of when, but rather it is a matter of "How Soon?"
High risk and high rewards is what the rogue should be about and right now with CoS, Stealth and ItC it doesn't play out like that. That needs to change for the sake of balance.
Comments
The subject was death because of CoS+Stealth:
1. You do not get killed by CoS+Stealth.
2. You do not get killed by CoS+Stealth.
3. You do not get killed by CoS+Stealth
4. You do not get killed by CoS+Stealth.
That should be clear enough for you and I pointed out the same thing to nukeyoo. You should have read my reply before you responded. Those were suggestions you can use against TRs. In my opinion if you are dying just from CoS+Stealth you do not know how to play and are unwilling to learn. In my opinion we have already covered exactly how biased you are against TRs. The idea of PVP is one team wins and one Team looses. One of the easiest ways to win is to cap the points and defend them. You should expect to die sometime and not cry over it because there is no invincible juggernaut class. Trs in reality are not an invincible juggernaut class despite how much you try to make TRs to look like they are an invincible juggernaut class. You should not be playing PVP if you are not willing to die. I played PVP four times today, won once and lost three times mainly because most of the teams had green gear. Did I cry about it and go about wanting nerfs? No, I moved on and finished the rest of my dailies. I rest my case.
So I made a mistake and wrote Shocking Blade instead of Shocking Execution. Thanks for pointing it out and I fixed it. Clearly you do not know the concept of comparing two things together. I never said the two nerfs were linked together. I was comparing the single Shocking Execution nerf to the 4 changes into this single nerf. I will also point out all four changes are rolled into one nerf. Shocking Execution was only one change and not multiple. One is smaller than four if you did not know. This means the nerf to Shocking Execution was small compared to these four changes. But wait you still want more nerfs. You also do not know how the permastealth rogue works otherwise you would know that the changes the devs are making will hurt all TRs more instead of just targeting permastealths.
To be honest I never really paid attention to bleed since it did not work properly when the game was first Open Beata. Bleed stacked more than 10 according to the TRs that have paid attention. In my opinion those four nerfs put together into one nerf does make a big nerf.
Probably not enough what?? If it is not enough nerfs then I guess you really do want TRs nerfed into the ground like the rest of the ones crying for more nerfs. Very interesting how you stated otherwise.
Truth to be said, you have the same exact problems with almost all the other classes as a cleric.
What you're talking about is not a TR problem, it's a generic Cleric problem. You cannot retaliate nor protect yourself against any class because almost every other class can stun lock you or ignore your 2 CCs (1 knockback and 1 snare).
You're against perma stealth but you aren't actually speaking about perma stealth because perma-stealther don't have 3 offensive encounters and (unless "properly" enchanted) can't kill you with just 8 daggers (which requires 30 seconds to be fully effective again).
You're actually speaking about a regular TR with 1 or 2 defensive encounters (one of which may be Shadow Strike and the other Bait and Switch or Impossible to Catch) and that can kill you with a Lashing Blade (20s cooldown) from stealth (100% crit chance).
The problem is that none of the proposed nerf did have any major impact on this build. With the PvP set you were still able to throw all the 8 daggers while stealthed and then use Shadow Strike or Lurker Assault and basically oneshot a DC/CW with Lashing Blade (or Shoking Execution while in stealth).
If you were looking for a nerf for the perma stealth, these ones could have some very minor impacts to that build. But if you were hoping that, with such a changes, you had more chances against a TR (or a GF/GWF/CW for what it matter), sorry but you were (are) completely wrong.
You are completely correct. Is ambisinisterr asking for GF Nerfs or GWF Nerfs or CW Nerfs or his class to be buffed? No, ambisinisterr only wants the TRs to be nerfed into the ground and ambisinisterr celebrates when it looks like it is happening.
Isn't that only the case when you are alone? Why is a DC alone on a point? Just dodge once after the 3rd dagger or so while your melee teammate runs around swinging his sword, he'll find him and trash him.
DC's are probably worst for PvP, but that's not because of the TR.
Sunburst, Chains of Blinding light, dodge to reset CoS, run around a put a mark on them. I agree that you have the disadvantage of not being able to strike empty air like melee classes, but you do have AoE to compensate...somewhat.
(Casting time may be upped a little to balance it, imo)
And none of those wizards managed to pull of an AoE effect? It only takes one conduit of ice to keep track of the TR and shred his stealth meter.
I'm not saying L2P, but I am saying that these things do work against TR's.
First, TR stealth skip wasnt a fool proof plan in Fardelver even, there where mobs aggroing TRs through stealth, then attacking when stealth broke. The same goes for the open world dungeons and other encounters, some mobs see you and attack you while in stealth attacking them. It may work at times, but thats something that can get fixed without doing anything about PvP stealth. Just give the mobs you like stealth detection and its fixed.
Anyways, now all of a sudden the complaining isnt about CoS+Stealth anymore, now it's about TRs doing to much melee damage. Make up your mind ffs. You probably never use, FmF or AS on your DC I suspect, or sunburst for that matter. If the rogue stays stealthed to confuse you, his damage will come from sly flourish most likely. It can be countered by a Div-FmF to his face or an AS.
If he pops his stealth to deal encounter damage, then stealth isnt an issue at all anymore is it? Wasnt that what the complaining was about? Again, make up your mind.
And so he pops ItC, then you should stop stressing and start thinking about what to do. Like uhm, dodge 2 times to avoid his damage or run around if you are away from melee. Running away doesnt mean running off, it means running in a circle around the node. And again, this cant be stressed enough ont he forums, your issue isnt with TRs as a cleric, its with every class really that can lock you out from your heals, which is every class. I cant count the times I've kept a DC locked down from 100%-0% on my CW, GF or GWF. They are too easy to kill. Atleast a rogue cant lock them down in the same way.
You also said that if you run are forced to run off you are taken out of the fight and no use to your team. Then I ask you, what kinda trash teams do you play with that dont protect their DC? Its a team based setting in PvP, use it. Dont be that guy running off in panic, run to your team mates and have them help you. Player/team skill or lack there off is not something to balance classes around.
TRs are also silly easy with a CW, you have one at-will that ruins their whole day, Ray of Frost. You dont need to channel it for the full duration, you just need to tap it from time to time during the fight and kite them to death. Conduit of Ice also helps, since it keeps refreshing chill aswell as debuffing their mitigation (if specced for it). Without the old 12 charge CoS they will be even easier to kite.
@Thalesamr: There is no reason to lower TR damage just so the GWF can catch up, its not the games fault or the TR communities fault you didnt do your research on which role each class has. You rolled a hybrid, not a pure striker. You cant have everything on a class.
Clerics and Wizards are RANGED classes. They are ranged for a reason. My goal against any class is to keep as far away as possible so going in close is a bad idea...yet the only way to deal with rogues in stealth. It's merely a counter-intuitive concept. In order for me to deal with a rogue that is attacking me from a range I have to go within melee range...in which they have a repetuir of even higher damaging abilities. Hardly fair or logical.
Chains would be the all around yay I can deal with permastealth rogues except for one key problem: it's only a bind. As such it does absolutely nothing except diminish the stealth meter and it will virtually never reduce it enough to bring them out of stealth unless the rogue is just plain bad.
It's very clear you guys don't play Control Wizards and Devoted Clerics.
This is the order of operations:
Rogue nearly gets within range: he pops stealth and peppers you with daggers.
You choose the option to fight, you get within range so that you can retaliate and he pops ItC. Congratulations you now can not CC or Damage him. Yippee.
If you manage to live past that he goes back into stealth still without any DoT on him because of ItC.
Rinse and repeat.
You make it sound like all rogues are horribly bad. Even a bad rogue can alternate these effects and effectively prevent any damage from being taken. To think otherwise is pure ignorance and shows that you have never played from the other side. Sure things always seem hard from the other side of the fence but the bottom line is it takes only a moderate amount of playskill to keep at a distance until ItC is up.
And that moderate amount of playskill can't be countered by wizards and clerics. Doesn't matter how good the DC/CW is as long as they can't target a rogue in stealth or do anything while ItC is up this issue will exist. Sure if I have a few allies, preferably a GF/GWF it's more manageable, but that's true of any class and can't be a basis for arguments. Control Wizards and Devoted Clerics aren't supposed to be holding the hands of other players in order to leave the spawn area. It should help but it shouldn't be required and most certainly not because they can't hope to survive past 15 seconds without a hand to hold because one class can make themselves permanently invulnerable to them.
You make it seem all rouges are invincible, invulnerable, and all powerful like gods. When in reality they are not at all and can be defeated. In reality there is not a juggernaut class in this game despite how much you try to make TRs look like one.
Guess you do not know the meaning of the word juggernaut.
juggernaut
n.
1. An overwhelming, advancing force that crushes or seems to crush everything in its path:
2. any large, overpowering, destructive force or object.
Every class has its vulnerabilities and advantages. There is not a single class that is invincible/invulnerable. Interesting how you mention GFs/GWFs with TRs and are not wanting them nerfed like you want TRs. This nerf and any other nerfs are just going to make the game more unbalanced.
The TR needs to melee to finish you off, you have skills to prevent him coming close and you don't have to see him in order to use them. Why is that unfair and illogical?
The other classes are supposed to protect the support classes, you can't blame one class for people not living up to that expectation.
In my opinion this is a very valid response that certain people will continue to ignore and argue against. Those people want TRs nerfed into the ground even if it hurts the game.
In my opinion these are some very valid questions that may never be fully answered because they want to ruin the game by nerfing TRs into the ground instead of balancing it.
A very valid observation in my opinion. In my opinion the reason for the change in complaining was because the individual is so biased against TRs. The individual wants any and every excuse to try to promote an agenda of nerfing TRs even if it will ruin the game further. The DC nerf hurt the game and the devs adjusted difficulty in a later patch lowering it. I wonder if the difficulty of the PVE portion will be lowered again because of this nerf to TRs. We will see.
Seems that saying something is not logical is basically saying it is irrational. Very interesting.
In my opinion it is not unfair or illogical in reality. Some people will want TRs nerfed no matter what and will give any excuse. It will just lead to the game being ruined because the TRs will retaliate and cry for this or that to be nerfed. An unending cycle that with destroy the game.
In my opinion you are correct that the other classes are suppose to protect the support class and there is no valid reason to blame one class for team mate not living up to the that expectation. I have also seen some DCs who were basically invincible toward TRs in PVP. I hate to say it but I have also been killed off repeatedly by a DC during a PVP match on the Dragon shard. Lucy was the DC's name and I wonder what gear/build he or she was using. DCs can survive if the know how too, but they still should be protected by the other classes.
Wait wait wait what? So you are refusing to use a valid skill i.e FmF, a skill that is great against rogues, and you have the nerve to go call for nerfs? You arent even using what is within your arsenal to battle the TR and you still call for nerfs!? Hypocrisy, straight out hypocrisy.
FmF along with BotS are absolutley mindblowing for battling rogues. They are both DoTs which lets you move freely while still dealing damage. And FmF turns whoever you cast it on into a healing battery. The damage they will deal to you while in melee range if you have FmF on them wont even be noticable. And with the right feats you should run around with the same mitigation as a GF, or close to it. So with FmF and AS you will br able to last long against a TR. But if you arent using the skills given to you, thats not their fault, its yours and you should be in no place asking for nerfs to them if you arent using the skills you have open for your class.
You have also strayed further from the subject that was CoS+stealth killing you. Now its just about TRs killing you in general.
People need to stop treating Domination like Deathmatch... I barely ever play my DC in PVP.... but decided I would today... even when the numbnuts melee ran off I followed them... and stayed alive pretty much anytime I was close to one of them. Doing what I do best... keeping my Melee classes alive... now the CWs and TRs died like normal (surprisingly the CWs stayed alive longer than ALL but one TR who was geared to the teeth).
So as a TR as my main... my GF as my tank (I still suck with him) I found my experience this morning in PVP much easier with my DC than I do with my TR. It's a lot less work to prevent dieing with my DC. Just follow and stop thinking I can get kills without support... my DC 9.4K won all but 1 match... did I get 2 for 1s like I do with my TR... no... my teams however, won more often.
Not true.
Devoted Clerics have one spell to prevent rogues from coming into melee range without requiring a target and it's a very short duration bind.
Control Wizards have a couple which can prevent enemies from reaching them but those are mainly dailies. I can't recall any encounter powers which prevent targets from reaching Control Wizards without a target.
In the end I become more and more convinced you guys play rogues and notice when your play errors are tossed back into your face which I surely have done on more than one occassion...
But the story remains the same...
For me to survive more than a few seconds against a rogue I have to rely on rogues committing play errors because the utility they have is completely unbeatable as long as they maintain a basic level of playskill. They don't have to be amazing to avoid taking a single point of damage they merely have to understand alternating between stealth and ItC in order to render TWO classes dead in the water.
If they couldn't remain at a distance throwing knives without allowing me to retaliate I would be fine. That's what I argue for. But as it stands I can fight every other class with Control Wizards and Clerics and feel like I have a fair fight. I can fight as any other class against any other class and feel like I have a fair fight. Except when I face a rogue.
CW's can freeze GF's so while I *can try* to block much of their CC they can easily render GF's useless. GWF's can be killed easily enough if CW's time their CC before/between unstoppable. Devoted Clerics do need a bit of a buff to bring them up to par with the other classes.
Rogues are a bit more of a challenge to both classes to contend with but it's purely because they use the same tricks. The thing is unlike CW's and DC's the tankiness of GF and GWF's as well as will at least give them a fighting chance. Without being spec'd for PvP on my Guardian Fighter (no chain prones) I will normally simply stalemate against rogues simply by making CoS 100% ineffective and CCing them when they come within range.
That's why I don't call for changes to the other classes. I do think DC's need a buff to be more viable but this problem goes way above and beyond clerics. The problem remains the ability for all but the worst rogues to alternate between ItC in mellee range and CoS in stealth to be the class with the best defense and the most offense unless there is at least three enemies. It's an issue for every class to contend with but the issue is only most prevalent on CW's and DC's because they lack the ability to defend themselves against such tactics.
This is more like Rock, Paper, Pickaxe than Rock, Paper, Scissors. The rogues are the strongest class in the game. It supplies the most offense and defense in one package with only one weakness: requiring moderate playskill.
And as long as you guys don't expereince the other side you will always argue it's easier to contend with than it is in reality. Prove me wrong. Show me you can defeat rogues with no problem. Until then you are simply ignoring the other side of the fence.
and why is paper then complaining that pickaxe beats it?
isnt it supposed to be like that?
otherwise it wouldnt be rock, paper, pickaxe anymore
TRs beat CWs
CWs beat GF/GWFs
GF/GWFs beat TRs
sounds balanced, unless you are paper and whine about scissors ofc
Ah well
-Desstzo
So on point... LIKE!
So you finally admit that DCs need a buff. I will make a DC if this buff ever occurs. I have been mainly saying DCs need a buff anyways. The rogue class has the most offense but it does not have the most defense. Rogues come no were close to GFs. GFs have the ability to block anything if they know how to use there character correctly. Rogues have low armor and can be killed in stealth even with ITC by players who know how to do it.
Why don't you take your own advice and play as a rogue against GFs, GWFs, DCs, and CWs who know what they are doing. You will see just how hard it is to kill them. Prove me wrong. Until then you are simply ignoring the other side of the fence and crying for nerfs with no real knowledge of Rogues. Prove me wrong. I have 2 more slots open, today I will start a CW.
So correct. Hmm where is all the TRs crying for GFs and GWFs to be nerfed? Maybe I should find them and join them.
Better Yet:
TRs beat CWs/DCs
CWs beat GF/GWFs
GF/GWFs beat TRs/DCs
It all seems fair yet people cry for nerfs to ruin the game.
Look at my discussions in other threads and stop putting words in my mouth.
I have long said DC's need a buff but they need a buff to bring them on par.
Conversely rogues need a debuff to bring them on par.
Pickaxe beats rock and would be rough against paper. Rogues can and do contend quite well against Gf's and GWF's. It's about an even match if there's good playskill. First person to mess up and allow a hit will win.
and for the pickaxe, it depends on the pickaxe and the stone
to use minecraftterms: whe nyou use a wooden pickaxe to farm obsidian, youre doing something very wrong and lose your pickaxe soon. when you use your diamond pickaxe to farm normal stone, the stone has no chance
translated into neverwinter: its a gear thing and has nothing to do with the classes
but what i find funny is that you say that rogues and GF/GWFs are equal yet you have no problems with GF/GWFs...
is it just me or does that sound REALLY unlogic?
Ah well
-Desstzo
I deleted my CW and my GWF to make a second TR way back when they announced thee nerf to Shocking Execution. I can tell you out of all the classes I've levelled the CW was by far the fastest... going from 0 to 30 in 2 days just doing the missions. granted it was a weekend... so probably played 12 hours... but SERIOUSLY. The same amount of time playing I was only able to get the GWF to 19.
GF was the toon I least died with SO easy...
DC was faster than my two TRs... but I was REALLY learning my 2 TRs so... not sure how it would take me today.
I could not agree more. Read all the other posts in the thread to get a better picture.
It's quite simple: I can play around GF and GWF. As a Cleric I will always die to them without assistance but I can play around them and as previously stated as a CW playskill will allow easy managability of both GF's and GWF's.
Since your main point of contension is how I can say I do not have a major problem against GF's and GWF's as a Cleric I'll stick to that:
I can dodge the knockdowns. I can use chains to keep them at a distance. I can bide time until allies arrive or hold my own until I make a play error.
I do not like that once I am on the ground against a GF I will be in a perpetual chain CC but it can at the very least be dodged and managed to a point. My own ability to kite their attacks and dodge at key moments is why I am not overly concerned with Guardian Fighters and Great Weapon Fighters being "OP."
I will basically never be able to kill a GF or GWF. They simply are able to take too much damage and as a cleric I will almost never get the chance to do enough damage to a GF or GWF in order to kill them on my own before my team or their team arrives although I have done so on rare occassions.
Learn to play comments have basically become a bad juju topic in the rogue threads but for questioning my ability to play as much as the rogues have it should be pretty evident that my disposition towards GF's and GWF's who are often considered OP tis day in age is proof I am more than capable of playing well.
I am nothing if not skilled at kiting. I can kite most GF's and GWF's for minutes at a time.
Whereas a Rogue, as I have repeated time and time again, could kill me straight up with CoS before the recent changes. The recent changes no doubt have stopped that, great, but instead of being outright dead from CoS I'll still have half of my HP gone without being able to retaliate or kite effectively. That might be fine if not for the second factor: ItC allowing them to get within melee range and prevent me from doing anything other than to dodge. If by some means I manage to kite and survive I simply get to look forward to more CoS from stealth and another wave of ItC encounter powers.
I have no way to counter that. No amount of kiting will contend with that. No amount of playskill can save me from a quick death because the amount of damage I can take and the amount of times I can dodge are far less than a rogue's damage output and the number of daggers and encounter powers a rogue can dish my way.
Why do I voice discontent at this? Simple: there's no counter. There's no defensive action that will prolong my dead more than seconds, and going on the offense is like bringing a knife to a gunfight.
As far as I see it there's only a few things which could solve this balance issue:
1) Remove/Alter ItC. I do not like this idea personally because it is a rogue's main defense against CC abilities. I think we can agree altering this skill would leave rogues near defensless.
2) Make rogues targetable by ranged at-will (not encounter) attack while in stealth. Don't even need to shadow them but simply allow ranged attacks to still attack near where players think the rogue is with a chance of hitting them. However this would ruin much of the defensive nature of Stealth which I believe we can agree is bad. Rogues do need the defensive utilities.
3) Make CoS a skill shot so I can kite and dodge the attacks. I like this but as I am not sure of the feasibility I haven't pushed it.
4) The change I have called for numerous times in the last few months: make CoS diminish the stealth bar. If rogues want to remain in stealth defensively let them. If they want to do damage in melee where I can see and target them have it remain a high risk high reward situation. If they want to use CoS in stealth then by all means allow them to but the trade off should be reduced time in stealth to balance the high reward and low risk nature of the tactic.
I am hardly being unfair about this. I am telling you how it is for a CW and DC. A rogue with a basic understanding of timing can easily be 100% invulnerable and kill multiple CW's and DC's without taking a scratch.
Such a change wouldn't nerf the rogue to the ground. All it would do is make them think more carefully about their choices in tactic. They could still empty all of their CoS shots into me but they would have to be prepared for the fact they would become vulnerable and need to pop ItC.
Furthermore I agree that diminishing stealth on melee At-Wills would hurt the rogues tremendously both in PvP and PvE however using CoS from stealth in PvE is just not common at all and would have a very minimal impact.
My requests are about balance. About allowing playskill to determine the decisiveness of death. I kill many wizards as a GF because of my own playskill or their lack of it. The same goes for my cleric against GF's and GWF's. But when it comes to rogues it's not a matter of if, in fact it's not even a matter of when, but rather it is a matter of "How Soon?"
High risk and high rewards is what the rogue should be about and right now with CoS, Stealth and ItC it doesn't play out like that. That needs to change for the sake of balance.
Kudos if you read that wall of text.