mctankypantsMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
Completely removing pots from pvp would also speed things up in matches. You'd no longer have certain classes running away at maximum speed to get that pot and come back to the fight. I'm not pointing fingers mind you...
Completely removing pots from pvp would also speed things up in matches. You'd no longer have certain classes running away at maximum speed to get that pot and come back to the fight. I'm not pointing fingers mind you...
I agree completely 1000% but I proposed a idea in another thread. Instead of health pots they are all random buff potions. say 500 to power. 1000 to def. etc. That would make something interesting I can see the epic fight on the bridge for buffs before attacking mid. This would make Domination a lil more true and I think a lot more fun.
Completely removing pots from pvp would also speed things up in matches. You'd no longer have certain classes running away at maximum speed to get that pot and come back to the fight. I'm not pointing fingers mind you...
A little secret I don't mind sharing, you know how potions are sometimes bugged? I can do it consistently, whenever I pug and see the enemy GWFs running the wannabe tanky spec and abuse the potions, I just bug them and GG no more hero GWFs backcaping us.
They also addressed this in the upcoming patch, if you take a potion and take hit, it disables the regen.
mctankypantsMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
I like the idea of buffs or something similar to that. If there were points on the map that when controlled aided your team in some way it'd be more of a tooth and nail fight. I think we can all agree that the point system in pvp needs a revamp because once you're team is down past a certain point, people either bail or sit at the campfire. I digress. Back to the subject at hand. Tene's need fixing Devs.
History of those enchants is directly related to P2W, at first they were on 6s internal cooldown, they later got nerfed to 20s and buffed again to 15s. People may argue about this game being F2P and balance issue, but these enchants are GAME BREAKING and are only obtainable from ZEN store.
People need to open their eyes and realize this is P2W at its purest form, the problem is even months after the game is out, we see players still thinking gear score matters and epics are always best in slot, so ofcourse they will argue that this is F2P without any P2W gear, they don't know how strong these enchants are. And if they claim that you can obtain them through AH, I rather bash my head into the wall than explaining them how stupid they sound.
History of those enchants is directly related to P2W, at first they were on 6s internal cooldown, they later got nerfed to 20s and buffed again to 15s. People may argue about this game being F2P and balance issue, but these enchants are GAME BREAKING and are only obtainable from ZEN store.
People need to open their eyes and realize this is P2W at its purest form, the problem is even months after the game is out, we see players still thinking gear score matters and epics are always best in slot, so ofcourse they will argue that this is F2P without any P2W gear, they don't know how strong these enchants are. And if they claim that you can obtain them through AH, I rather bash my head into the wall than explaining them how stupid they sound.
Agreed, but I don't like terms like P2W. It's a total misnomer, there is no such thing as pay to win, if anything you're paying for convenience.
edit: off topic for a sec, what happened to Medic? Did he sell his account?
Guild: Lemonade Stand | Server: Dragon (Original) | PvP Forever | 1og0s * TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
Agreed, but I don't like terms like P2W. It's a total misnomer, there is no such thing as pay to win, if anything you're paying for convenience.
edit: off topic for a sec, what happened to Medic? Did he sell his account?
All of them except me and steroidz left to play POE.
Also I like the term P2W more:
Player A: Installs game, pvps, gets full pvp gear, starts farming dungeons, gets full epics, crafts couple lvl 5/6/7 enchants or buys them (150k~ for rank 7?), crafts weapon enchant (probbly lesser or normal).
Player B: Installs game, pvps, gets full pvp gear, starts farming dungeons, gets full epics, BUYS KEYS with ZEN, opens nightmare boxes, buys wards, crafts gr8r tenes (estimated worth 3.8mil at peak on our server x 7 = 26.6mil), buys tons of vorpal shards, crafts perfect enchant with wards (another ZEN item), estimated worth 15mil (I know its 30mil on MindFlyer).
Now the question is: How much time does player A has to invest to reach player's B equivalent gear?
If you use legal terms sure its not P2W, technically you can obtain everything without spending a dime, if you use common sense you realize that's one big bull****.
spanky2014Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 78
edited August 2013
I agree with gctrl, it is pay for convenience and not "pay to win".
You even stated it yourself. There is nothing that someone who does not want to spend a dime can't get in this game.
I don't think there is any game out there that is truely Pay-to-Win. Pay to win is where you need to pay money to get an "exclusive" item that gives them an advantage over those who didn't spend money.
People use the term Pay-to-Win to be mean Pay-for-Convenience. Free to play games need to make money somehow and this is the way they do it. Let the people who can afford it pay for the convenience.
All of them except me and steroidz left to play POE.
Also I like the term P2W more:
Player A: Installs game, pvps, gets full pvp gear, starts farming dungeons, gets full epics, crafts couple lvl 5/6/7 enchants or buys them (150k~ for rank 7?), crafts weapon enchant (probbly lesser or normal).
Player B: Installs game, pvps, gets full pvp gear, starts farming dungeons, gets full epics, BUYS KEYS with ZEN, opens nightmare boxes, buys wards, crafts gr8r tenes (estimated worth 3.8mil at peak on our server x 7 = 26.6mil), buys tons of vorpal shards, crafts perfect enchant with wards (another ZEN item), estimated worth 15mil (I know its 30mil on MindFlyer).
Now the question is: How much time does player A has to invest to reach player's B equivalent gear?
If you use legal terms sure its not P2W, technically you can obtain everything without spending a dime, if you use common sense you realize that's one big bull****.
How about this scenario:
Player C: Installs game, Levels 55 Characters and farms Leadership for 2 months. Buys Full Epics, T10, Perfect Enchants, G-Tene's and destroy's all in PvP.
It's what Crytpic wants us to do and why they are pushing more and more towards leadership farming as each character slot costs 250 Zen!
Player A: Installs game, pvps, gets full pvp gear, starts farming dungeons, gets full epics, crafts couple lvl 5/6/7 enchants or buys them (150k~ for rank 7?), crafts weapon enchant (probbly lesser or normal).
Player B: Installs game, pvps, gets full pvp gear, starts farming dungeons, gets full epics, BUYS KEYS with ZEN, opens nightmare boxes, buys wards, crafts gr8r tenes (estimated worth 3.8mil at peak on our server x 7 = 26.6mil), buys tons of vorpal shards, crafts perfect enchant with wards (another ZEN item), estimated worth 15mil (I know its 30mil on MindFlyer).
Now the question is: How much time does player A has to invest to reach player's B equivalent gear?
If you use legal terms sure its not P2W, technically you can obtain everything without spending a dime, if you use common sense you realize that's one big bull****.
Here's what you're missing though, Player B has a real life job he has to go to every day in order to buy zen. So in reality, he's W2W, Working to Win, and that is no different than all the work Player A has to do in game to get BIS.
Guild: Lemonade Stand | Server: Dragon (Original) | PvP Forever | 1og0s * TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
If you are getting into bragging rights here you can save yourself the time :[
Lol no I put that on youtube for more people to see thats it not bragging haha. Also, I was premade wit kobe and all them too righjt before GG came out. I quit after GG. I only found this forumn cause friend said someone was talking about my youtube vid.
This game will always be pay for convenience nothing more. Sure ive bought some keys and I farm a lot so I bought 2 bags. I also bought a tiger mount for my alts to run around on. Made some gaming more convenient. Not needed. I also look at a game with a 60buck price tag. If its free 2 play why not throw in 20bucks to help the game out and get something that is fun. That isn't pay 2 win at all.
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bpskibbenheimsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 210Bounty Hunter
edited August 2013
To make PVP more balanced a lot of people suggest gear score separation at 60. Tenebs would break this aswell. Many of the TRs stacking Tenebs for example wear a bunch of boe and green gear to stack HP an have GSs in the 8k and 9k range, but are some of the most well geared players for pvp.
Hi NW, i just wanna say a thing...during pvp match i find some GF with Conqueror spec with 6 3% tenebrous and full socket R8 Hp at last 33-36k Hp....they just 1shot my TEAM.....running over 4-5k Lunging Strike and 4-6 proc of Tenebrous 2-3k every time and versus every1 (33-36k hp x3 /100 = 990 1080 dmg how is possible 2-3k? and no ****ing CD) U can ignore that type of ****....but belive me there is no way to beat that type of GF with load of defense power and insane Tenebrous procs.....
Have a nice day.
So you saying a player with BiS gear that is worth over 20 mil AD was stomping you in pvp? And how much would your TEAMS total AD be? maybe 20 mil? So that sounds about right...
I agree its pretty dang OP and I have offered up SEVERAL ways to balance pvp out before and the DEVs dont really care honestly...
Greater Tene is what causes the PVP to be unbalanced. It DOES have a 20 sec CD but its serverside so that means they can proc back to back in the right conditions but then they will have to wait 20 seconds...
Also GFs are NOT the most OP with tene... Sent GWFs are. THey have higher HP pools, more regen AND faster attacks meaning more tene procs.
GFs are REALLY immobile AND attack pretty slow too.
Ill repost ONE of my tene solutions:
Drop the %s to - Lesser: 1% Regular: 1.5% Greater:2% give it a small reduction in CD but make it a HARD CD versus a server side CD of maybe 8-10 seconds and then allow it to hit multiple targets via AoE with no cap on the number hit.
This buffs it quite a bit in PVE, while diminishing the advantage it gives in pvp.
With a 30k HP pool @ 2% 7 GTEs will hit for 4200 single target with 7 GTEs and ALL proc-ing, as opposed to 6300 but allowing it to hit multiple targets exponentially increases the DPS for PVE without making it too OP in PVP.
The HARD CD will also assist in PVP since multiple procs back to back are what cause the additional insane damage burst which will be fixed via the hard CD. I bet that if they even left it at 3% but gave it a HARD CD it would fix the PVP issue ALOT. THe biggest problem ISNT the time of the CD its that its a serverside CD versus a hard CD, which didnt balance PVP at all but just made tene horrible for pve...
Here's what you're missing though, Player B has a real life job he has to go to every day in order to buy zen. So in reality, he's W2W, Working to Win, and that is no different than all the work Player A has to do in game to get BIS.
The other thing this guy is missing is that MOST players with GTE enchants DIDNT buy them... They got them early on when you could MAKE a GTE for 300k AD... So getting 6-7 of them only cost a few mil.
NOW the prices are high and its almost impossible to get unless you want to spend HUNDREDs of dollars... Most people with GTE didnt do that... they just started realizing the huge advantage of them early on...
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dcoy1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
The P2W nature of these games really just turns me off on MMOs in general. Don't start the BS about "oh you can play AH and get same gear". Most of the people who have the gamebreaking enchants either paid a LOT ( ie not a reasonable amount vs a sub game) or exploited to get it. Probably a number well over 90% and YOU personally posting that you just did it by selling gear you gained legit in game doesn't change what the vast majority did to get there's.
TLDR - a sub game would have fixed those enchants a long time ago, but PW will let people pay hundreds of $$ to break PVP.
To make PVP more balanced a lot of people suggest gear score separation at 60. Tenebs would break this aswell. Many of the TRs stacking Tenebs for example wear a bunch of boe and green gear to stack HP an have GSs in the 8k and 9k range, but are some of the most well geared players for pvp.
Tenebs are a problem.
To have ranking on GS in PvP they would need to introduce a PvP system first. The beta PvP we have with 2 maps of scrimmage in 5v5 isn't exactly worth ranking anything.
So since I have top gear and don't use bugged Tene's I would have to fight bugged Tene's that don't exactly fix anything either.
Getting rid of Tene's or just making it 1 per character is a simple fix and yes its simple. Just do it!
Then add some maps with different objective then the 2 boring base cap ones we have and then maybe someday we can take a look at rankings.
The P2W nature of these games really just turns me off on MMOs in general. Don't start the BS about "oh you can play AH and get same gear". Most of the people who have the gamebreaking enchants either paid a LOT ( ie not a reasonable amount vs a sub game) or exploited to get it. Probably a number well over 90% and YOU personally posting that you just did it by selling gear you gained legit in game doesn't change what the vast majority did to get there's.
TLDR - a sub game would have fixed those enchants a long time ago, but PW will let people pay hundreds of $$ to break PVP.
Honestly the reason people even have GTE enchants is because of all the dumb players who early on sold them for 10k AD because they didnt realize the value of what they had...
Its almost like getting a T2 chest within a week of OB and saying it looks like <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> gear and selling it for really cheap... You then cant really get mad at the player who goes and buys them all up to get BiS gear because its cheap...
People need to realize the market price of lesser tenes was as low at 10k AD versus now its almost 20x that... Most people were able to get them for ALOT cheaper then what you can today.
I agree that bove alot of ppl exploited early on to get that amazing gear, but like Lantiss said, alot of those players have moved on now... So finding a GTE player is somewhat rare (on mindlfayer anyways) these days
if he has 37k life hten he has ArP GWFS get ArP from Con so 20 con is 10% ArP if he has 26 yup thast 16% ArP.
is Dex in GF and CON in GWF there is a post somewhere in the forum that said that.
as for on topic GF is the most balanced class around, you need a full rotation to kill even daily sometimes, and with luck you can kill someone, with tenes yes is to OP i do agree but the problem is the Tene Enchant not the GF cause also GWF with Tene is OP and unstopable
Everything works out in the end . If it hasn't worked out yet, it isn't the end...
If you read the new Fay patch, everyone gets a FREE Tene. PvP will be completely broken come xpac.
2200 Regen & 10% dmg buff based on power. So my 11k GF will have a free 1100 dmg on my attacks. :P Yep not broken at all.
Link for that patch notes I don't see.
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honoraryorangeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
Tenes are not cheating, nor are they overpowered. Any class who replaces Tenes with other enchants of equal value (Rank 9 crit/arpen) will do just as well, with far higher sustained damage and a tiny bit less burst.
Tenes are not cheating, nor are they overpowered. Any class who replaces Tenes with other enchants of equal value (Rank 9 crit/arpen) will do just as well, with far higher sustained damage and a tiny bit less burst.
I welcome your opinion but I don't agree. The enchant is bad for PvP as a whole and the gimmick builds made around them.
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borgued3Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 150Bounty Hunter
Tenes are not cheating, nor are they overpowered. Any class who replaces Tenes with other enchants of equal value (Rank 9 crit/arpen) will do just as well, with far higher sustained damage and a tiny bit less burst.
people were too focused on 1 specific enchant because it is the most common, but fact is that enchants are the tipping factor on pvp, regardless of class.
With the right enchants any class is a 1 hit killer, yet we see people coming to forums to say "class x is OP and broken" and their basis usually falls on "i saw it hitting for 30k+ crit" and numbering very high crits from certain skills, but thats because they see the ubber enchanted players rolling over people.
Put said OP class against every other class on 1x1 fights with 0 enchants and you will see if in fact a class is overpowered or not compared to others. Yet that level of insight scapes people when its time for nerf calling.
History of those enchants is directly related to P2W, at first they were on 6s internal cooldown, they later got nerfed to 20s and buffed again to 15s. People may argue about this game being F2P and balance issue, but these enchants are GAME BREAKING and are only obtainable from ZEN store.
People need to open their eyes and realize this is P2W at its purest form, the problem is even months after the game is out, we see players still thinking gear score matters and epics are always best in slot, so ofcourse they will argue that this is F2P without any P2W gear, they don't know how strong these enchants are. And if they claim that you can obtain them through AH, I rather bash my head into the wall than explaining them how stupid they sound.
You know, it's ironic that you're the one who's now so outspoken about Tenes being P2W, broken, and OP. Seeing as how you and your guild has abused 7 Greater Tenebrous stacking for months, along with other exploits, and used them on every character / class you've ever played in PvP.
You guys made a name for yourselves thanks to G.Tene stacking and other exploits, such as abusing bugged Thunderheads. So why the sudden change of heart? Why weren't you saying these things a month ago or even 2 weeks ago when you were happily abusing G.Tenebrous stacking?
Comments
I agree completely 1000% but I proposed a idea in another thread. Instead of health pots they are all random buff potions. say 500 to power. 1000 to def. etc. That would make something interesting I can see the epic fight on the bridge for buffs before attacking mid. This would make Domination a lil more true and I think a lot more fun.
A little secret I don't mind sharing, you know how potions are sometimes bugged? I can do it consistently, whenever I pug and see the enemy GWFs running the wannabe tanky spec and abuse the potions, I just bug them and GG no more hero GWFs backcaping us.
They also addressed this in the upcoming patch, if you take a potion and take hit, it disables the regen.
true story
Agreed, but I don't like terms like P2W. It's a total misnomer, there is no such thing as pay to win, if anything you're paying for convenience.
edit: off topic for a sec, what happened to Medic? Did he sell his account?
* TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
All of them except me and steroidz left to play POE.
Also I like the term P2W more:
Player A: Installs game, pvps, gets full pvp gear, starts farming dungeons, gets full epics, crafts couple lvl 5/6/7 enchants or buys them (150k~ for rank 7?), crafts weapon enchant (probbly lesser or normal).
Player B: Installs game, pvps, gets full pvp gear, starts farming dungeons, gets full epics, BUYS KEYS with ZEN, opens nightmare boxes, buys wards, crafts gr8r tenes (estimated worth 3.8mil at peak on our server x 7 = 26.6mil), buys tons of vorpal shards, crafts perfect enchant with wards (another ZEN item), estimated worth 15mil (I know its 30mil on MindFlyer).
Now the question is: How much time does player A has to invest to reach player's B equivalent gear?
If you use legal terms sure its not P2W, technically you can obtain everything without spending a dime, if you use common sense you realize that's one big bull****.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
You even stated it yourself. There is nothing that someone who does not want to spend a dime can't get in this game.
I don't think there is any game out there that is truely Pay-to-Win. Pay to win is where you need to pay money to get an "exclusive" item that gives them an advantage over those who didn't spend money.
People use the term Pay-to-Win to be mean Pay-for-Convenience. Free to play games need to make money somehow and this is the way they do it. Let the people who can afford it pay for the convenience.
How about this scenario:
Player C: Installs game, Levels 55 Characters and farms Leadership for 2 months. Buys Full Epics, T10, Perfect Enchants, G-Tene's and destroy's all in PvP.
It's what Crytpic wants us to do and why they are pushing more and more towards leadership farming as each character slot costs 250 Zen!
Hehe cool, I actually left PoE to play NW
Here's what you're missing though, Player B has a real life job he has to go to every day in order to buy zen. So in reality, he's W2W, Working to Win, and that is no different than all the work Player A has to do in game to get BIS.
* TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
Tenebs are a problem.
So you saying a player with BiS gear that is worth over 20 mil AD was stomping you in pvp? And how much would your TEAMS total AD be? maybe 20 mil? So that sounds about right...
I agree its pretty dang OP and I have offered up SEVERAL ways to balance pvp out before and the DEVs dont really care honestly...
Greater Tene is what causes the PVP to be unbalanced. It DOES have a 20 sec CD but its serverside so that means they can proc back to back in the right conditions but then they will have to wait 20 seconds...
Also GFs are NOT the most OP with tene... Sent GWFs are. THey have higher HP pools, more regen AND faster attacks meaning more tene procs.
GFs are REALLY immobile AND attack pretty slow too.
Ill repost ONE of my tene solutions:
Drop the %s to - Lesser: 1% Regular: 1.5% Greater:2% give it a small reduction in CD but make it a HARD CD versus a server side CD of maybe 8-10 seconds and then allow it to hit multiple targets via AoE with no cap on the number hit.
This buffs it quite a bit in PVE, while diminishing the advantage it gives in pvp.
With a 30k HP pool @ 2% 7 GTEs will hit for 4200 single target with 7 GTEs and ALL proc-ing, as opposed to 6300 but allowing it to hit multiple targets exponentially increases the DPS for PVE without making it too OP in PVP.
The HARD CD will also assist in PVP since multiple procs back to back are what cause the additional insane damage burst which will be fixed via the hard CD. I bet that if they even left it at 3% but gave it a HARD CD it would fix the PVP issue ALOT. THe biggest problem ISNT the time of the CD its that its a serverside CD versus a hard CD, which didnt balance PVP at all but just made tene horrible for pve...
The other thing this guy is missing is that MOST players with GTE enchants DIDNT buy them... They got them early on when you could MAKE a GTE for 300k AD... So getting 6-7 of them only cost a few mil.
NOW the prices are high and its almost impossible to get unless you want to spend HUNDREDs of dollars... Most people with GTE didnt do that... they just started realizing the huge advantage of them early on...
TLDR - a sub game would have fixed those enchants a long time ago, but PW will let people pay hundreds of $$ to break PVP.
To have ranking on GS in PvP they would need to introduce a PvP system first. The beta PvP we have with 2 maps of scrimmage in 5v5 isn't exactly worth ranking anything.
So since I have top gear and don't use bugged Tene's I would have to fight bugged Tene's that don't exactly fix anything either.
Getting rid of Tene's or just making it 1 per character is a simple fix and yes its simple. Just do it!
Then add some maps with different objective then the 2 boring base cap ones we have and then maybe someday we can take a look at rankings.
Honestly the reason people even have GTE enchants is because of all the dumb players who early on sold them for 10k AD because they didnt realize the value of what they had...
Its almost like getting a T2 chest within a week of OB and saying it looks like <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> gear and selling it for really cheap... You then cant really get mad at the player who goes and buys them all up to get BiS gear because its cheap...
People need to realize the market price of lesser tenes was as low at 10k AD versus now its almost 20x that... Most people were able to get them for ALOT cheaper then what you can today.
I agree that bove alot of ppl exploited early on to get that amazing gear, but like Lantiss said, alot of those players have moved on now... So finding a GTE player is somewhat rare (on mindlfayer anyways) these days
Actually, 2 char slots are free. You just need to farm gmail accounts.
is Dex in GF and CON in GWF there is a post somewhere in the forum that said that.
as for on topic GF is the most balanced class around, you need a full rotation to kill even daily sometimes, and with luck you can kill someone, with tenes yes is to OP i do agree but the problem is the Tene Enchant not the GF cause also GWF with Tene is OP and unstopable
2200 Regen & 10% dmg buff based on power. So my 11k GF will have a free 1100 dmg on my attacks. :P Yep not broken at all.
Link for that patch notes I don't see.
I welcome your opinion but I don't agree. The enchant is bad for PvP as a whole and the gimmick builds made around them.
people were too focused on 1 specific enchant because it is the most common, but fact is that enchants are the tipping factor on pvp, regardless of class.
With the right enchants any class is a 1 hit killer, yet we see people coming to forums to say "class x is OP and broken" and their basis usually falls on "i saw it hitting for 30k+ crit" and numbering very high crits from certain skills, but thats because they see the ubber enchanted players rolling over people.
Put said OP class against every other class on 1x1 fights with 0 enchants and you will see if in fact a class is overpowered or not compared to others. Yet that level of insight scapes people when its time for nerf calling.
They don't want their ridiculously tanky class (GWF and GF) to not be able to kill people if G.Tenes were properly nerfed.
You know, it's ironic that you're the one who's now so outspoken about Tenes being P2W, broken, and OP. Seeing as how you and your guild has abused 7 Greater Tenebrous stacking for months, along with other exploits, and used them on every character / class you've ever played in PvP.
You guys made a name for yourselves thanks to G.Tene stacking and other exploits, such as abusing bugged Thunderheads. So why the sudden change of heart? Why weren't you saying these things a month ago or even 2 weeks ago when you were happily abusing G.Tenebrous stacking?
I'm a Tanky GF and only use 3 G-Tene's because they have a higher DPS gain than ArP.