So wait, what are we supposed to do as rogues now? Stand around and watch the fights others are in? It really doesn't sound like we'll be able to do much, but having a fighter class that can block *everything* from *any* direction is not considered "overpowered"? lmao! (before you say it.... yeah, I know, I must suck at playing)
You're supposed to get yourself onto the preview server and test out some builds for free.
I just finished an extended amount of testing ( 2 hours ) and here are my results.
Bleed now recalculates once it hits the 10th stack. Meaning every tick will be different. No more riding the crit ticks, the ticks will now vary from 400 damage to my max was 9k...this results in a rough loss of DPS equal to 20 % on Boss encounters.
Total Nerf Percentage = 20 %
Lurkers Assault warps you onto the mobs head possibly killing you ( Spellplague etc.. ) , lasts for 7 seconds, no significant damage increase over a 2 hours, Crit severity increase doesn't show on extended damage parse, so not sure if it is even being calculated, and the cool black and white effect is now gone. Lurkers is effectively a waste of 3 points.
Loss of 60 % Damage is irreplaceable.
Total Nerf Percentage : 20 % Damage per second, 60 % Damage while Lurkers used to run.
Loss of Stealth while DPS'ing on boss mobs. Most rogues are crafty enough to hit stealth off and on while runningthrough their rotations on Boss mobs, and stealth lasting roughly 6 seconds previously would allow to maintain 100 % + Crit while DPSing the boss..
This is now gone as Stealth falls off roughly halfway through 1 Duelists Flurry so you do not gain the benefit of a full run while in stealth for the crit bonuses. Damage loss factored in the 10 % range.
Overall this is what we will see if this build goes live.
20 % loss to Bleed
60 % loss to Lurkers Damage when active
10 % loss of Stealth based Crit DPS...
Overall on an encounter it is found that we are looking at a 30 % loss of DPS overall with no survivability added in to offset the loss of damage.
that is 30 % longer it will take to kill bosses, which increases the chance of something going wrong and an event wiping, and people wasting 2 hours of their life to get to a boss that the average group will struggle to kill.
The perma stealth rogue nerf was very needed, nowhere in any other MMO I have played does such an *** clown of a spec exist, it's stupid and annoying for literally everyone else in the game, even other rogues and it does little to nothing for that rogue's team as he is useless.
That closing comment is very amusing. I think what you mean is that some people who play classes/builds (I'd hazard 95% of people who play pvp) are useless. A good permastealth rogue will enable a team to beat a better geared team, assuming the rest of the team play their required role.
Here's the full details of the Nerf to PVE rogues. As mentioned a million times this has only incidental impact on PVP perma-stealth builds. So all you morons rejoicing over a "PVP" nerf get a clue. Also most of you have no clue what a permastealth rogue is. Getting killed in PVP by a rogue who happened to be stealthed at the time is not the same as being killed by a permastealth rogue. You certainly aren't getting 2 shot'ed by permastealth rogues unless they're very very lucky with full 8x greater tenebrous which all happen to proc at once. once again, get a clue.
The changes on PTR is like they are intended this patch to be a pure PVE rogue nerf that just so happens to sorta hurt PVP perma stealth rogues, and not the other way around. Obviously the devs do not play the game nor are they competent at all as Rogues are fine in PVE. We are already being edged out in damage by competent GWFs in terms of damage (Thank god there are so few of them) and the only reason we top DPS charts is because bosses have so many HP that we can single target chew through. Reducing boss hp to 75-85% and we'd be fighting for first against GWF and CWs.
Stealth Nerf: It's no longer useful whatsoever for adding damage (ie combat advantage damage or any +dmg from stealth feats which are all now useless), any attack eats it in seconds, it's only useful for activating encounters to get the bonus.
lurkers is reduced to 5 second duration from 12 seconds.
Lurkers adds +7.5% dps (@ 50% crit rate) instead of +60% dps. Well it would if it were not bugged. it currently adds nothing. but if it goes in as advertised, it would add only 7.5% or less. Any less than 50% crit rate, the +dps % is less.
Lurker's stealth regen does not even keep up with DF, it will break during Lurkers from the 3rd hit of a single DF
You can still get 6-7 Daggers off from Cloud of Steel (of the now 8 in lieu of 12 on live). Everything you could do to achieve permastealth and regain stealth while killing players from stealth is the same, you just have to be more careful and attack less because you have less daggers to throw.
As it stands, the overall effect of this patch is a 50% damage reduction to PVE rogues, GWF and CWs will outdamage a TR in dungeons, relegating TR as absolutely useless, except as permastealth detours for speed runs/skipping certain bosses/trash. They will be useless in the actual boss fights themselves, so expect 3CW 1DC 1TR (for dungeons with skips) or 3CW 1DC 1GF groups (for dungeons without them) to become the new standard.
For TRs, instead of wasting time with this patch, you should just remove dailies and the tab ability and call it a day, as that's what this patch does. Congrats, the only viable build now for PVE is permastealth, and that's only as a gimmick charity case to get to bosses faster. Once all the skips are fixed then there won't be a viable PVE build.
For TRs, instead of wasting time with this patch, you should just remove dailies and the tab ability and call it a day, as that's what this patch does. Congrats, the only viable build now for PVE is permastealth, and that's only as a gimmick charity case to get to bosses faster. Once all the skips are fixed then there won't be a viable PVE build.
As you seem to be so fond of saying, "get a clue". Folks who aren't reliant on faceroll crutches are even now reworking things on the preview shard, and will be operating perfectly acceptably after the patch is live. Admittedly, that leaves all the Bads dependent on previously broken mechanics SOL, but such is life.
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kimberixMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
No real point in arguing this any further. The devs have shown very little in the way of listening to their playerbase anyway.
The only way you will make these people sit up and listen is if you stop paying them. Hitting them hard in the wallet will let them know how p*ssed people are way more than raging on a forum.
I stopped playing this game as both of my characters were hit by the nerf hammer (DC and TR), and I absolutely refused to PAY for a respec token to amend the build that THEY changed.
I was pinning my hopes on module1 for them to woo back players in my position but, unfortunately, this company's ongoing implementation of module1 (and accompanying changes) is doing a sterling job of scaring away any players that they may had hoped to win back.
Why are people "testing" the effect of the nerf on the preview server? We know about that, you've left feedback and it remains to be seen if these changes will go live. In the meantime you could be trying out new builds and see what works if these changes go ahead.
Why are people "testing" the effect of the nerf on the preview server? We know about that, you've left feedback and it remains to be seen if these changes will go live. In the meantime you could be trying out new builds and see what works if these changes go ahead.
But what is the point of coming up with a new build? As soon as someone does, it too will be nerfed into the ground! So why bother?
I am currently leveling a rogue because I really like the idea of fighting in stealth. I think its a game mechanic that pretty much no other game has, being able to do constant combat while remaining hidden, that's really cool and what really drew me to trying this class. I don't see why something can't be fixed for PvP only, I don't even care about PvP but my build is being destroyed before I can even try it in PvE =(
Just release some PvP maps that don't have capture points, then you won't need to hold a point and can just run away from the rogue throwing daggers at you until he unstealths, very simple...
This is a very interesting and unique game mechanic that you are taking away here and I really think you should reconsider this due to the PvE repercussions. So many people have offered PvP fixes, please at least consider these and come to a middle ground that does not involve making this class just like every other rogue on every other game.
I have played against perma-stealth rogues in pvp, and yes they can kill CW's pretty easily. But that's their role, when they come against a not-braindead GWF they get stomped on, b/c thats the GWF's role. Balance is not about perfect equilibrium of all classes in 1v1 its about overcoming the other team through tactics and using all the classes effectively against the class they are best at fighting. I might actually PvP more than the occasional gg for grym coins if more people had that mindset.
So in short, these nerfs are from a PvP standpoint but still hurt PvE TR's way more than necessary. There has to be another way to combat the PvP exploiting of stealth that doesn't destroy the only alternative PvE build. Right now you can either be full DPS rogue or long-term stealth which does less damage but compensates with survivabiltiy. It's just plain wrong to ruin everyone's PvE experience b/c the TR is currently strong against 2-3 other classes.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
So many thing in this game that have been fixed in other MMO's that still get into this game. Honestly did they not see a permastealth rogue being a problem in PvP, being able to attack while not being attackable is hilarious. Almost all games these days can separate PvP and PvE skills. It is totally stupid to ruin a class for PvE because of PvP.
BTW, why does everyone seem to assume the nerfs were from a pvp perspective? Do the notes say, we nerfed these skills because they were OP in pvp?
Likely because people were constantly complaining about losing to rogues in PvP, often the same few people who would often abandon their team because they just weren't very good at dealing with anything that wasn't a LEEEEROY JENKINS style frontal charge. Permastealth rogues weren't a a problem for people who knew how to counter them , and these changes crush rogues in PvE even more than in PvP since there are still plenty of bad PvP'ers.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
So many thing in this game that have been fixed in other MMO's that still get into this game. Honestly did they not see a permastealth rogue being a problem in PvP, being able to attack while not being attackable is hilarious. Almost all games these days can separate PvP and PvE skills. It is totally stupid to ruin a class for PvE because of PvP.
My bad. Usually I am perma stunned to death by an invisible rogue. I meant to say targetable, yes they are able to be hit by AoE. I don't pvp much in this game, it is not any fun. Regardless in what game does a rogue type class get a perma stealth that they can attack from and there is not any crying on the forums. I dont have a problem with it I am just pointing out the obvious.
My bad. Usually I am perma stunned to death by an invisible rogue. I meant to say targetable, yes they are able to be hit by AoE. I don't pvp much in this game, it is not any fun. Regardless in what game does a rogue type class get a perma stealth that they can attack from and there is not any crying on the forums. I dont have a problem with it I am just pointing out the obvious.
Let me guess you are CW or DC? those are the classes TR is meant to be able to handle, if you we're a GF or GWF you would have no problem stunning/proning them out of stealth and stomping on them, b/c those are the classes that counter TR. Balance doesn't mean anyone can 1v1 anyone, PvP is a test of who can use their class to the best of their ability. Which is why a good TR will be targetting CW's and DC's until he's killed by the fighters.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Let me guess you are CW or DC? those are the classes TR is meant to be able to handle, if you we're a GF or GWF you would have no problem stunning/proning them out of stealth and stomping on them, b/c those are the classes that counter TR. Balance doesn't mean anyone can 1v1 anyone, PvP is a test of who can use their class to the best of their ability. Which is why a good TR will be targetting CW's and DC's until he's killed by the fighters.
Yes, I am a DC and CW, the only 2 classes I leveled. I am also not complaining as I agree with you, TR was meant to take out DC and CW's. I am merely pointing out an obvious flaw. I have never played a game that had any perma stealth class in PvP that stayed that way. There is always crying on the forums by bads that do not understand how TEAM PvP works. You should not be able to 1v1 every class as it is a team effort. I was also pointing out how stupid it is not to have PvP separate from PvE. That way they can nerf say perma stealth to accommodate the lowest common denominator of PvPers and leave PvE alone. This is common practice in games these days yet it is obviously not possible in this one.
My bad. Usually I am perma stunned to death by an invisible rogue. I meant to say targetable, yes they are able to be hit by AoE. I don't pvp much in this game, it is not any fun. Regardless in what game does a rogue type class get a perma stealth that they can attack from and there is not any crying on the forums. I dont have a problem with it I am just pointing out the obvious.
Any effect which dazes or stuns you would take them out of stealth. You, like many people, are confusing stealth and permastealth. Try using shift.
Regarding which game has a rogue class with perma stealth that doesn't result in crying on the forums, I don't think there's any ability in any game which people don't cry about on forums, unless it's useless. Too many people want to be able to play against other players in MMOs as though they were NPCs in a single player game.
edit: also I disagree with you that there should be any pandering to people who whine because they are too rigid to adapt, or who try to solo everything in a team game.
Yes, I am a DC and CW, the only 2 classes I leveled. I am also not complaining as I agree with you, TR was meant to take out DC and CW's. I am merely pointing out an obvious flaw. I have never played a game that had any perma stealth class in PvP that stayed that way. There is always crying on the forums by bads that do not understand how TEAM PvP works. You should not be able to 1v1 every class as it is a team effort. I was also pointing out how stupid it is not to have PvP separate from PvE. That way they can nerf say perma stealth to accommodate the lowest common denominator of PvPers and leave PvE alone. This is common practice in games these days yet it is obviously not possible in this one.
I have never played a game with nearly perma stealth class either, thats why it's very unique and intriguing to me in PvE. Go ahead and nerf it in PvP that doesn't bother me at all, but leave the ability to play your well set up unique class in PvE. The trade-off for near perma-stealth is a sizable decrease in damage. seems very fair trade to me (in PvE) if I want to use that build.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I'm not too happy with what I am reading, another nerf to rogues? And when the new class gets put in? Another set of balancing that won't work. Why punish people who actually read and use the skills as intended and then change them? 3rd cryptic game with the same old bull****. Think i might be done with the cryptic mentality of bottom dollar is all that matters, take away all the fun and the things that make the game enteraining or rewarding instead of caring about the actual game.
Pathetic, this dev team should have their asses wooped!
While I agree that rogues do not need another change, it would seriously make yours, and every other person who doesn't get its post a lot more readable if you all could get it through your thick skull that the people who work on the cash shop (which any free to play game needs) and those that produce new content, and the those that fix bugs are all completely different divisions of the company. They do not work together on any level. Because a few new cash shop items are released does not mean people quit working on fixing bugs. Also, if the cash shop was not being added to or did not exist, you would not be complaining about this game... because you would not be playing it, as it would not be here.
It would also be nice if people like yourself quit pretending to know the internal structure of every company involved with MMO's. Regardless of how the various departments are structured and what their responsibilities are its safe to say there are ongoing issues that have not been solved. The management of the company that allocates resources to various functions is beyond remiss in understanding the voice of their customer. The management of the game DOES direct more attention to cash grab than it should with the current state of the game.
I have two separate departments for the lab in my business. One group designs products while the other QC's the ongoing production of those products. As demand varies in each area we are capable of reallocating resource to whatever best serves our customers. In addition if need be we invest in overtime. You can drone on and on about how Cryptic is different than my business but you are wrong. There is no doubt that those who design new content and those who fix bugs are capable to work in either area. If they aren't then whoever did the hiring needs fired.
I am sure Cryptic has done Extensive internal testing and have no plans to make sweeping changes to the Tr class. Now that the test server is available players can test these new changes and see just how much they really affect the Tr class.
Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor.
~Sholom Aleichem
1. I don't give a **** about pvp and all the 'permastealth is OP' QQ-ing. Yeah I do pvp occassionally and yeah those rogues can be irritating but that's pretty much it.
2. The majority of this game's playerbase is comprised of PvE oriented people and I don't think anyone is going to argue that.
3. If you are going to PvE at 60 it means doing dungeons. Doing dungeons in this game (reasonably effectively) means bringing the classes which will help you accomplish that goal.
4. Rogues were (supposedly) designed as the primary single-target damage class. And with the proper build they can in fact fulfill that role.
And here's the problem: the changes on the preview pretty much invalidate that build and that design approach to rogues. The funny thing is that it will be easy to find decent alternatives for pvp builds (if they even get affected much, which i doubt) but alternatives for pve? Sure, you may find a build/builds that sorta works. However, it is not going to work as well as the current one. As a matter of fact it will not be competitive vs. GWF/CW and considering how much more utility those classes bring there simply won't be much of an incentive to bring a TR along for the ride.
That is the crux of the problem. The proposed changes, as they stand, will strip the TR of its assigned role in the majority of game content. Which is a pity, I personally enjoyed the playstyle and the interactions between the TR's stealth/powers/feats mechanics. With the changes as they currently are, those will be mostly gone. I don't think that is a good way of solving problems the class may have (personally, I was aghast at the changes, I felt the class was fine.. and screw pvp, you want to pvp - go play WoT).
I feel bad for nerfed TR's but as a CW, I prefer no TR in my dungeon party.
My complaints about TR in dungeons:
1. Normally less defense than GF and GWF.
2. When TR goes stealth, CW and DC are more likely to attract aggro.
3. GWF is usually as good as or better at AoE damage on large mobs. GF is better at attracting aggro.
4. Killing boss too fast can result in too many adds and lead to a wipe.
2. When TR goes stealth, CW and DC are more likely to attract aggro.
4. Killing boss too fast can result in too many adds and lead to a wipe.
I'm not sure what you're smoking, but..
2) What? The TR is single target DPS. Things they are attacking tend to die- it doesn't suit the way the class works to give 20 mobs a wedgie then vanish. This is simply a ludicrous assertion. If the odd rare multi-target effect is too much for you, then the group has other problems.
4) When the boss is down, it doesn't matter. What do you have to fear from "a wipe" precisely? Spending a kit, before having to walk over and loot, after the mobs have despawned? In any case, if you managed to stay alive while the boss was up and spawning more adds, why are you suddenly doomed when he isn't? Are you bound by some sort of wierd promise to swap to assless chaps and dance in a lewd manner rather than fighting them as you have previously?
You seem to have problems with both game mechanics or fundamental logic. I'd love to be a fly on the wall when you trot out your "reasoning".
Yes, I am very strongly in favour of nerfing rogues, but god-on-a-stick preserve me from allies like you
There is no doubt that those who design new content and those who fix bugs are capable to work in either area. If they aren't then whoever did the hiring needs fired.
What was that you said about people pretending to know the internal structure? You probably make shoes or something equally uncomparable.
of course one thing about this nerf people are not actually taking into account is it is NOT a nerf to permastealth it just affects all builds permastealth being one of them. Permastealth relys on Bait and switch and the stelth strike power to refill the stealth bars neither of those have been touched, nor has blood batch or impossible to catch or smoke bomb all powers more popular in pvp than pve. this is probably because while permastelth rogues were annoying they accually wernt THAT great in dps/crits so they ddidnt really one shot people as much as the executioner hybrid builds that maxed crits and dps.
Lurkers and COS were key the executioner builds that tried to incorporate as much stealth as possible without sacrificing crit.
they probably did some sort of data-mining to target powers that crit builds and stealth builds had in common so that they could best nerf every rogue build. The premise is if EVERY single build uses the same power that power may be OP. granted they went a bit overboard on LA, so I hope they lighten up a bit on it.
Now what they should also do is look for powers that NO build uses powers that are considered useless and a waste of points and buff those to balance what they are taking away, maybe then we will have more middle of the road options rather than nerfed or pointless....
Comments
I just finished an extended amount of testing ( 2 hours ) and here are my results.
Bleed now recalculates once it hits the 10th stack. Meaning every tick will be different. No more riding the crit ticks, the ticks will now vary from 400 damage to my max was 9k...this results in a rough loss of DPS equal to 20 % on Boss encounters.
Total Nerf Percentage = 20 %
Lurkers Assault warps you onto the mobs head possibly killing you ( Spellplague etc.. ) , lasts for 7 seconds, no significant damage increase over a 2 hours, Crit severity increase doesn't show on extended damage parse, so not sure if it is even being calculated, and the cool black and white effect is now gone. Lurkers is effectively a waste of 3 points.
Loss of 60 % Damage is irreplaceable.
Total Nerf Percentage : 20 % Damage per second, 60 % Damage while Lurkers used to run.
Loss of Stealth while DPS'ing on boss mobs. Most rogues are crafty enough to hit stealth off and on while runningthrough their rotations on Boss mobs, and stealth lasting roughly 6 seconds previously would allow to maintain 100 % + Crit while DPSing the boss..
This is now gone as Stealth falls off roughly halfway through 1 Duelists Flurry so you do not gain the benefit of a full run while in stealth for the crit bonuses. Damage loss factored in the 10 % range.
Overall this is what we will see if this build goes live.
20 % loss to Bleed
60 % loss to Lurkers Damage when active
10 % loss of Stealth based Crit DPS...
Overall on an encounter it is found that we are looking at a 30 % loss of DPS overall with no survivability added in to offset the loss of damage.
that is 30 % longer it will take to kill bosses, which increases the chance of something going wrong and an event wiping, and people wasting 2 hours of their life to get to a boss that the average group will struggle to kill.
GG Cryptic.
The changes on PTR is like they are intended this patch to be a pure PVE rogue nerf that just so happens to sorta hurt PVP perma stealth rogues, and not the other way around. Obviously the devs do not play the game nor are they competent at all as Rogues are fine in PVE. We are already being edged out in damage by competent GWFs in terms of damage (Thank god there are so few of them) and the only reason we top DPS charts is because bosses have so many HP that we can single target chew through. Reducing boss hp to 75-85% and we'd be fighting for first against GWF and CWs.
Stealth Nerf: It's no longer useful whatsoever for adding damage (ie combat advantage damage or any +dmg from stealth feats which are all now useless), any attack eats it in seconds, it's only useful for activating encounters to get the bonus.
lurkers is reduced to 5 second duration from 12 seconds.
Lurkers adds +7.5% dps (@ 50% crit rate) instead of +60% dps. Well it would if it were not bugged. it currently adds nothing. but if it goes in as advertised, it would add only 7.5% or less. Any less than 50% crit rate, the +dps % is less.
Lurker's stealth regen does not even keep up with DF, it will break during Lurkers from the 3rd hit of a single DF
You can still get 6-7 Daggers off from Cloud of Steel (of the now 8 in lieu of 12 on live). Everything you could do to achieve permastealth and regain stealth while killing players from stealth is the same, you just have to be more careful and attack less because you have less daggers to throw.
As it stands, the overall effect of this patch is a 50% damage reduction to PVE rogues, GWF and CWs will outdamage a TR in dungeons, relegating TR as absolutely useless, except as permastealth detours for speed runs/skipping certain bosses/trash. They will be useless in the actual boss fights themselves, so expect 3CW 1DC 1TR (for dungeons with skips) or 3CW 1DC 1GF groups (for dungeons without them) to become the new standard.
For TRs, instead of wasting time with this patch, you should just remove dailies and the tab ability and call it a day, as that's what this patch does. Congrats, the only viable build now for PVE is permastealth, and that's only as a gimmick charity case to get to bosses faster. Once all the skips are fixed then there won't be a viable PVE build.
As you seem to be so fond of saying, "get a clue". Folks who aren't reliant on faceroll crutches are even now reworking things on the preview shard, and will be operating perfectly acceptably after the patch is live. Admittedly, that leaves all the Bads dependent on previously broken mechanics SOL, but such is life.
The only way you will make these people sit up and listen is if you stop paying them. Hitting them hard in the wallet will let them know how p*ssed people are way more than raging on a forum.
I stopped playing this game as both of my characters were hit by the nerf hammer (DC and TR), and I absolutely refused to PAY for a respec token to amend the build that THEY changed.
I was pinning my hopes on module1 for them to woo back players in my position but, unfortunately, this company's ongoing implementation of module1 (and accompanying changes) is doing a sterling job of scaring away any players that they may had hoped to win back.
They do listen, the player base asked/cried for these nerfs and the nerfs were given.
But what is the point of coming up with a new build? As soon as someone does, it too will be nerfed into the ground! So why bother?
Just release some PvP maps that don't have capture points, then you won't need to hold a point and can just run away from the rogue throwing daggers at you until he unstealths, very simple...
This is a very interesting and unique game mechanic that you are taking away here and I really think you should reconsider this due to the PvE repercussions. So many people have offered PvP fixes, please at least consider these and come to a middle ground that does not involve making this class just like every other rogue on every other game.
I have played against perma-stealth rogues in pvp, and yes they can kill CW's pretty easily. But that's their role, when they come against a not-braindead GWF they get stomped on, b/c thats the GWF's role. Balance is not about perfect equilibrium of all classes in 1v1 its about overcoming the other team through tactics and using all the classes effectively against the class they are best at fighting. I might actually PvP more than the occasional gg for grym coins if more people had that mindset.
So in short, these nerfs are from a PvP standpoint but still hurt PvE TR's way more than necessary. There has to be another way to combat the PvP exploiting of stealth that doesn't destroy the only alternative PvE build. Right now you can either be full DPS rogue or long-term stealth which does less damage but compensates with survivabiltiy. It's just plain wrong to ruin everyone's PvE experience b/c the TR is currently strong against 2-3 other classes.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
How many threads have you seen saying that the TR was too OP in PvE compared to how many were crying about PvP?
Guess that's answered your question for you..
Likely because people were constantly complaining about losing to rogues in PvP, often the same few people who would often abandon their team because they just weren't very good at dealing with anything that wasn't a LEEEEROY JENKINS style frontal charge. Permastealth rogues weren't a a problem for people who knew how to counter them , and these changes crush rogues in PvE even more than in PvP since there are still plenty of bad PvP'ers.
False; stealthed characters can be attacked.
My bad. Usually I am perma stunned to death by an invisible rogue. I meant to say targetable, yes they are able to be hit by AoE. I don't pvp much in this game, it is not any fun. Regardless in what game does a rogue type class get a perma stealth that they can attack from and there is not any crying on the forums. I dont have a problem with it I am just pointing out the obvious.
Let me guess you are CW or DC? those are the classes TR is meant to be able to handle, if you we're a GF or GWF you would have no problem stunning/proning them out of stealth and stomping on them, b/c those are the classes that counter TR. Balance doesn't mean anyone can 1v1 anyone, PvP is a test of who can use their class to the best of their ability. Which is why a good TR will be targetting CW's and DC's until he's killed by the fighters.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Yes, I am a DC and CW, the only 2 classes I leveled. I am also not complaining as I agree with you, TR was meant to take out DC and CW's. I am merely pointing out an obvious flaw. I have never played a game that had any perma stealth class in PvP that stayed that way. There is always crying on the forums by bads that do not understand how TEAM PvP works. You should not be able to 1v1 every class as it is a team effort. I was also pointing out how stupid it is not to have PvP separate from PvE. That way they can nerf say perma stealth to accommodate the lowest common denominator of PvPers and leave PvE alone. This is common practice in games these days yet it is obviously not possible in this one.
Regarding which game has a rogue class with perma stealth that doesn't result in crying on the forums, I don't think there's any ability in any game which people don't cry about on forums, unless it's useless. Too many people want to be able to play against other players in MMOs as though they were NPCs in a single player game.
edit: also I disagree with you that there should be any pandering to people who whine because they are too rigid to adapt, or who try to solo everything in a team game.
I have never played a game with nearly perma stealth class either, thats why it's very unique and intriguing to me in PvE. Go ahead and nerf it in PvP that doesn't bother me at all, but leave the ability to play your well set up unique class in PvE. The trade-off for near perma-stealth is a sizable decrease in damage. seems very fair trade to me (in PvE) if I want to use that build.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Pathetic, this dev team should have their asses wooped!
Dorlin: Level 65 GF/2nd Account: Calias/62
Elkysium: Level 65 CW/2nd Account: Krystalyn/62
Artemis: Level 65 TR/2nd Account: Fayne/62
Zantoth: Level 65 DC/2nd Account: Nemea/62
Kryndar: Level 65 HR/2nd Account: Lilith/62
Goreb: Level 65 GWF/2nd Account: Tysha/62
Bamidor: Level 65 OP/2nd Account: Valindra/62
It would also be nice if people like yourself quit pretending to know the internal structure of every company involved with MMO's. Regardless of how the various departments are structured and what their responsibilities are its safe to say there are ongoing issues that have not been solved. The management of the company that allocates resources to various functions is beyond remiss in understanding the voice of their customer. The management of the game DOES direct more attention to cash grab than it should with the current state of the game.
I have two separate departments for the lab in my business. One group designs products while the other QC's the ongoing production of those products. As demand varies in each area we are capable of reallocating resource to whatever best serves our customers. In addition if need be we invest in overtime. You can drone on and on about how Cryptic is different than my business but you are wrong. There is no doubt that those who design new content and those who fix bugs are capable to work in either area. If they aren't then whoever did the hiring needs fired.
Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor.
~Sholom Aleichem
1. I don't give a **** about pvp and all the 'permastealth is OP' QQ-ing. Yeah I do pvp occassionally and yeah those rogues can be irritating but that's pretty much it.
2. The majority of this game's playerbase is comprised of PvE oriented people and I don't think anyone is going to argue that.
3. If you are going to PvE at 60 it means doing dungeons. Doing dungeons in this game (reasonably effectively) means bringing the classes which will help you accomplish that goal.
4. Rogues were (supposedly) designed as the primary single-target damage class. And with the proper build they can in fact fulfill that role.
And here's the problem: the changes on the preview pretty much invalidate that build and that design approach to rogues. The funny thing is that it will be easy to find decent alternatives for pvp builds (if they even get affected much, which i doubt) but alternatives for pve? Sure, you may find a build/builds that sorta works. However, it is not going to work as well as the current one. As a matter of fact it will not be competitive vs. GWF/CW and considering how much more utility those classes bring there simply won't be much of an incentive to bring a TR along for the ride.
That is the crux of the problem. The proposed changes, as they stand, will strip the TR of its assigned role in the majority of game content. Which is a pity, I personally enjoyed the playstyle and the interactions between the TR's stealth/powers/feats mechanics. With the changes as they currently are, those will be mostly gone. I don't think that is a good way of solving problems the class may have (personally, I was aghast at the changes, I felt the class was fine.. and screw pvp, you want to pvp - go play WoT).
My complaints about TR in dungeons:
1. Normally less defense than GF and GWF.
2. When TR goes stealth, CW and DC are more likely to attract aggro.
3. GWF is usually as good as or better at AoE damage on large mobs. GF is better at attracting aggro.
4. Killing boss too fast can result in too many adds and lead to a wipe.
I'm not sure what you're smoking, but..
2) What? The TR is single target DPS. Things they are attacking tend to die- it doesn't suit the way the class works to give 20 mobs a wedgie then vanish. This is simply a ludicrous assertion. If the odd rare multi-target effect is too much for you, then the group has other problems.
4) When the boss is down, it doesn't matter. What do you have to fear from "a wipe" precisely? Spending a kit, before having to walk over and loot, after the mobs have despawned? In any case, if you managed to stay alive while the boss was up and spawning more adds, why are you suddenly doomed when he isn't? Are you bound by some sort of wierd promise to swap to assless chaps and dance in a lewd manner rather than fighting them as you have previously?
You seem to have problems with both game mechanics or fundamental logic. I'd love to be a fly on the wall when you trot out your "reasoning".
Yes, I am very strongly in favour of nerfing rogues, but god-on-a-stick preserve me from allies like you
You have obviously never played a DC...
You obviously don't know how to use your DC!
I come in 1st place lots of times, not always, and keep my team healed!
Dorlin: Level 65 GF/2nd Account: Calias/62
Elkysium: Level 65 CW/2nd Account: Krystalyn/62
Artemis: Level 65 TR/2nd Account: Fayne/62
Zantoth: Level 65 DC/2nd Account: Nemea/62
Kryndar: Level 65 HR/2nd Account: Lilith/62
Goreb: Level 65 GWF/2nd Account: Tysha/62
Bamidor: Level 65 OP/2nd Account: Valindra/62
Lurkers and COS were key the executioner builds that tried to incorporate as much stealth as possible without sacrificing crit.
they probably did some sort of data-mining to target powers that crit builds and stealth builds had in common so that they could best nerf every rogue build. The premise is if EVERY single build uses the same power that power may be OP. granted they went a bit overboard on LA, so I hope they lighten up a bit on it.
Now what they should also do is look for powers that NO build uses powers that are considered useless and a waste of points and buff those to balance what they are taking away, maybe then we will have more middle of the road options rather than nerfed or pointless....