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Making "Exclusive Cash-only Races" Is Unacceptable

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    shiaikashiaika Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Silverstars Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    sominator wrote: »
    Hey all, just chiming in here with some info from the Extended FAQ:

    Our goal is ensure that all game content is available to all players without paying a dime. We do want to offer special, fun customization options like character races for players who have chosen to invest in a pack, but in the scope of the game mechanics these benefits are more cosmetic than mechanical, as everyone can still enjoy all the game content Fury of the Feywild offers without these perks.

    You can also find the stats for the Sun and Moon Elf races there.

    Thanks! :)

    F.A.Q. says
    What are the specifics surrounding the exclusivity of the Menzoberranzan Renegade Drow that comes with the Hero of the North Pack?

    The Menzo-Renegade look, tattoo, racial background, racial ability, and special companion will remain permanently exclusive to Hero of the North Pack purchases. The vanilla, non-Menzoberranzan Renegade Drow race will be unavailable for at least 60 days after release. We are currently planning to do a future update that will allow all players will be able to create a regular Drow character.
    So why must people pay for a colour palette instead of being given the "drow treatment"? I know that no one (99.99%) is going to buy that pack just for the Moon Elves but I fail to see why the "drow treatment" was ok back then and not now. Less outrage expected about the issue?

    Don't get me wrong, if I plan not on buying it is because of my huge amount of ADs lost to buggy game (that I won't see again, apparently) and swamped support since Cthulhu was using diapers. But as much as I was against drow being exclusive of only Hero owners, I'm against Moon Elves (their coour palette, as I doubt that they look much different than Sun Elves, Elves and Drows) being exclusive here. Races incluce some mechanics and bonuses so they are not cosmetic. Being forced to choose, better paid races than paid classes but don't treat races as cosmetic because they are not.
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    deathssickledeathssickle Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    shiaika wrote: »
    F.A.Q. says

    So why must people pay for a colour palette instead of being given the "drow treatment"? I know that no one (99.99%) is going to buy that pack just for the Moon Elves but I fail to see why the "drow treatment" was ok back then and not now. Less outrage expected about the issue?

    Don't get me wrong, if I plan not on buying it is because of my huge amount of ADs lost to buggy game (that I won't see again, apparently) and swamped support since Cthulhu was using diapers. But as much as I was against drow being exclusive of only Hero owners, I'm against Moon Elves (their coour palette, as I doubt that they look much different than Sun Elves, Elves and Drows) being exclusive here. Races incluce some mechanics and bonuses so they are not cosmetic. Being forced to choose, better paid races than paid classes but don't treat races as cosmetic because they are not.

    For the drow it was because everyone wants to be Drizzt... welll almost everyone
    I am usually Deaths Crowbar.


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    agodbeaagodbea Member Posts: 63 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    personally i think there is to many versions of Elfs in d&d

    They could make some races/classes unlocked by achivments. Making them rarer and taking a in game effort
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    kentuckyfriedfookentuckyfriedfoo Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Expect everything to be "premium" in the future, they are already milking the game (charging very high prices for an "expansion" that consists of no actual new content and recolored races).
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    rapticorrapticor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,078 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Expect everything to be "premium" in the future, they are already milking the game (charging very high prices for an "expansion" that consists of no actual new content and recolored races).

    They are charging NOTHING for the expansion. You can get it absolutely free on 22-Aug. Or whatever the date is. If you want some "bonus" stuff then yes they do have packs available for OPTIONAL purchase.

    It also has new content so I'm not sure which "expansion" you are referring to. One of us seems to be confused here and I don't think it's me.
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    alaerickalaerick Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 166 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    What annoys me most about this decision is us Guardian founders are getting the shaft. No special races, we got a mount, a dog and a few useless items that I literally deleted 30s after opening the pack. The starter weapon is only useful till level 15 which you can get to in your first two hours of playing the game. So all in all.. I really do not mind paying for a game.. I even more so don't mind helping developers get paid.. I do however hate feeling cheated and right now that's exactly what I feel.. Cheated.

    What they should have done instead of adding "new packs" is added more things to the existing ones to make them more worth while to purchase. You know say thank you in a nice way to those of us who coughed up the cash before they even launched the game. They could add some of these things to a post launch pack.. that's fine since you constantly want a new influx of money.. I'm cool with that.. but making like 50 different 59$ packs is just bull****. I wish the weapon you got was an item that constantly matched your level till 60. At which time it would become outclassed by epics. Even if it was a half grade lower than a normal blue like for example. Level 19 Looted Blue Dmg 100, Greywolf legacy weapon level 19 Dmg 99. Then it would have been worth something.. but all in all.. huge disappointment. Made me feel like never spending more money on this game again.
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    kentuckyfriedfookentuckyfriedfoo Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    rapticor wrote: »
    They are charging NOTHING for the expansion. You can get it absolutely free on 22-Aug. Or whatever the date is. If you want some "bonus" stuff then yes they do have packs available for OPTIONAL purchase.

    It also has new content so I'm not sure which "expansion" you are referring to. One of us seems to be confused here and I don't think it's me.

    It's definitely you because you're assuming I meant you're required to purchase it. That was not mentioned. They are selling their expansion for 60 dollars BUT NOT REQUIRED.
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    theviking2006theviking2006 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 817 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    It's definitely you because you're assuming I meant you're required to purchase it. That was not mentioned. They are selling their expansion for 60 dollars BUT NOT REQUIRED.

    They arent selling the expansion at all.
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    kentuckyfriedfookentuckyfriedfoo Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    They arent selling the expansion at all.

    You think just because you're not required to buy it to access the new areas makes it not sold as an expansion? It's basically saying "if you want the complete expansion (aka all the perks of the new additions) please pay."
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    theviking2006theviking2006 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 817 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    You think just because you're not required to buy it to access the new areas makes it not sold as an expansion? It's basically saying "if you want the complete expansion (aka all the perks of the new additions) please pay."

    You can access all of the new content for free, all of the new area's and the new profession and get all of the new gear. All for free. You dont need to buy anything! You only need to pay if you want a cosmetic race of Moon Elf. That is it.
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    darklodusdarklodus Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 31
    edited July 2013
    If it's not been said already, I could see the race being unlocked either through a smaller zen purchase or via AD. Either way, you could in essence get it free if you got the AD built up. Just my 2 cents...

    darklodus
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    deathssickledeathssickle Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    alaerick wrote: »
    What annoys me most about this decision is us Guardian founders are getting the shaft. No special races, we got a mount, a dog and a few useless items that I literally deleted 30s after opening the pack. The starter weapon is only useful till level 15 which you can get to in your first two hours of playing the game. So all in all.. I really do not mind paying for a game.. I even more so don't mind helping developers get paid.. I do however hate feeling cheated and right now that's exactly what I feel.. Cheated.

    What they should have done instead of adding "new packs" is added more things to the existing ones to make them more worth while to purchase. You know say thank you in a nice way to those of us who coughed up the cash before they even launched the game. They could add some of these things to a post launch pack.. that's fine since you constantly want a new influx of money.. I'm cool with that.. but making like 50 different 59$ packs is just bull****. I wish the weapon you got was an item that constantly matched your level till 60. At which time it would become outclassed by epics. Even if it was a half grade lower than a normal blue like for example. Level 19 Looted Blue Dmg 100, Greywolf legacy weapon level 19 Dmg 99. Then it would have been worth something.. but all in all.. huge disappointment. Made me feel like never spending more money on this game again.
    I know what you mean..
    I am usually Deaths Crowbar.


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    khatzhaskhatzhas Member Posts: 268 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    They arent selling the expansion at all.
    In weasel words, it could be argued that he meant "selling" meaning "persuading to be interested in" rather than an actual monetary transaction.

    Just not in this case.
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    alaerickalaerick Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 166 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    I know what you mean..

    I think I'll start a topic about it called "How about you throw us Guardian Founders a bone?" Feel free to bump it when you see it.
    A beautiful death awaits you...
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    kasyeekasyee Member Posts: 45 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    knightfalz wrote: »
    If their sales fail to produce their expected revenue, and they feel a reduction of prices will allow them to meet their target, prices will eventually go down over time. The game is still early. They are still in the process of feeling out what this particular market is willing to bear. They will use their sales data to determine that, rather than forum complaints.

    Yeah but may loose a lot of player in proccess which is not good.
    I honestly am not hardcore player - I dont care if Im little gimpy.
    But I have friends that like to have everything and if having everything means spending 50-60 bucks eacxh month its a "not gonna play" choice for them :(
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    knightfalzknightfalz Member Posts: 1,261 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    kasyee wrote: »
    Yeah but may loose a lot of player in proccess which is not good.
    I honestly am not hardcore player - I dont care if Im little gimpy.
    But I have friends that like to have everything and if having everything means spending 50-60 bucks eacxh month its a "not gonna play" choice for them :(

    May arguments are nothing but groundless speculation. That your friends want to have everything is an issue related to your friends, not the offer of packs. If they gotta get 'em all, this may be a difficult game for them. Not every game is meant for every person. Many people, though, are capable of only purchasing extras of particular interest to themselves, rather than everything that comes along.
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    tharkantharkan Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Yea I'm disappointed too. I swear, if they do this for Dragonborn, I am going to freak...
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    knightfalzknightfalz Member Posts: 1,261 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    tharkan wrote: »
    Yea I'm disappointed too. I swear, if they do this for Dragonborn, I am going to freak...

    Prepare to get your freak on now, so it will be truly monumental.

    It sounds by name alone like a prime product that many will want.

    Ka-Chinnggg!!!
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    kasyeekasyee Member Posts: 45 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    knightfalz wrote: »
    May arguments are nothing but groundless speculation. That your friends want to have everything is an issue related to your friends, not the offer of packs. If they gotta get 'em all, this may be a difficult game for them. Not every game is meant for every person. Many people, though, are capable of only purchasing extras of particular interest to themselves, rather than everything that comes along.

    Well I am casual player - I dont care if I have cool skin or not.
    I just think selling things addind power is not good thing in game claiming to be F2P.
    Cosmetics? Go on - I dont care.
    Some races with cooler looks? Go on.
    Faster leveling? Go on.
    But power :(.

    Also compared to other games its VERY costy.
    In abonament gams you pay this 20-30$ a month and get EVERYTHING.
    To get everything in nwo ypou would have to pay lots more.
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    khatzhaskhatzhas Member Posts: 268 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    kasyee wrote: »
    Also compared to other games its VERY costy.
    In abonament gams you pay this 20-30$ a month and get EVERYTHING.
    To get everything in nwo ypou would have to pay lots more.
    The point is though, that you don't need to buy everything. You don't need to buy anything.

    There aren't many games where you can get everything without having to pay anything.
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    ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited July 2013
    Just popping in to share the stats of the two "races" for those who didn't know...
    What are the stats for the Sun and Moon Elf races?

    Sun Elves:

    Inner Calm - Racial
    Your inner peace and serenity cause you to focus more clearly on the task at hand. +2% Action Point gain.

    Sun Elf Grace Racial
    Your bottomless grace increases your resistance to Crowd Control effects by 10%.

    Ability Score choices
    +2 Intelligence
    +2 Dexterity OR Charisma

    Moon Elves

    Wanderlust - Racial
    You cannot stay in one place long and are always roaming and seeking new oddities. +1% Action Point gain and +1% Stamina Regen.

    Moon Elf Resilience Racial
    Your elven resilience increases your resistance to Crowd Control effects by 10%.

    Ability Score choices
    +2 Intelligence
    +2 Dexterity OR Charisma

    So the only difference between the two races is cosmetic and -1% Action Point Gain for +1 Stamina Regeneration in Moon Elves.

    They really aren't two different races in this regard. They have very slightly different mechanics so everybody gets the Sun Elves and the Moon Elves are simply a variant no different than the Menzo-Renegade is to the Drow.

    If you don't have access to the Moon Elves you are really only missing out on a cosmetic and mild variant; not a full race.
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    knightfalzknightfalz Member Posts: 1,261 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    kasyee wrote: »
    Well I am casual player - I dont care if I have cool skin or not.
    I just think selling things addind power is not good thing in game claiming to be F2P.
    Cosmetics? Go on - I dont care.
    Some races with cooler looks? Go on.
    Faster leveling? Go on.
    But power :(.
    Selling things that grant power generally isn't a good idea. I don't recall anything in the pack that grants power. Perhaps you are referring to something else being sold.
    Also compared to other games its VERY costy.
    In abonament gams you pay this 20-30$ a month and get EVERYTHING.
    To get everything in nwo ypou would have to pay lots more.
    It can be. The thing with games where you pay a monthly fee, you have access to everything when you pay, but nothing when you don't. With Neverwinter and similar games, if I quit spending money I still have access to everything I purchased. Persons, when choosing a game, have to consider which of the two is better for them.
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    knightfalzknightfalz Member Posts: 1,261 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    wingofbenu wrote: »
    they alrweady sell power.

    seeing as the only eay to get a max level enchantment built in anything less than a few months or massive AD manipulation on the AH requires the cash shop.
    That could well be what the poster was referring to. It's hard to say, as the comment wasn't detailed.
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    kasyeekasyee Member Posts: 45 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    For me mount is also power - I mean e.g. in pvp when you can escape really easily with violet mount.
    Or companions that increase the character stats its power too.
    If I remember good pack contains both mount and companion of this kind (stone).

    Power is also AD - because for AD you can aquire epic gear.

    So having money with this pack you can buy:
    1) Better stats - which is also in zen store
    2) Fast mount - which is also in zen store
    3) AD to get best gear - which ofc can be also achieved by buying zen and selling it.
    But in both ways - its purchuasing the power.

    If it was all cosmetic or faster leveling or some cool loking races I woudnt care.
    But reality is they sell everything.
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    kobuirisgameskobuirisgames Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I'm at the point in my life where I have some disposal income and don't really spend it on anything but games. See my founder title. I can afford the packs and think some of the stuff in them is pretty cool.

    However! I really feel for people that can't just plop down $60 whenever these packs are announced. I'd really love to see all the pack exclusive stuff be made available in some form later on. Put them on the Zen store for some silly amount, or for trade bars, or whatever. You want it, you can save up the AD for it eventually. Forever exclusivity is pretty lame. I really don't see people buying these packs to lord it over anyone and I think most are like me--we don't really care if others can get this stuff by other means. And if helps support the game by letting people trickle in money later to get the stuff, all the better.
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    knightfalzknightfalz Member Posts: 1,261 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    kasyee wrote: »
    For me mount is also power - I mean e.g. in pvp when you can escape really easily with violet mount.
    Or companions that increase the character stats its power too.
    If I remember good pack contains both mount and companion of this kind (stone).

    Power is also AD - because for AD you can aquire epic gear.

    So having money with this pack you can buy:
    1) Better stats - which is also in zen store
    2) Fast mount - which is also in zen store
    3) AD to get best gear - which ofc can be also achieved by buying zen and selling it.
    But in both ways - its purchuasing the power.

    If it was all cosmetic or faster leveling or some cool loking races I woudnt care.
    But reality is they sell everything.

    It does have a purple mount. I don't know how valuable that is in PvP, as I don't do that, but if it provides great benefit it could be described as paying for power.

    The stat boosting item isn't a companion like an ioun stone, but in some way uses the neck slot. If that requires a sacrifice of the equipment piece that normally goes their, it may not provide much in the way of power due to the tradeoff.

    The AD sum may have been an advantage earlier in the game, but many can earn AD in the game fairly well, so it isn't a huge advantage.

    Since you can already do all these things, as you point out yourself, in the game, this pack isn't so much providing power you can't achieve elsewhere and by other means, but a discount on the cost of achieving such things by virtue of purchasing a pack.

    In the case of the pack, I don't think you're going to be able to convince anyone it is an undue purchase of power, that separates it from what is already on offer.
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    knightfalzknightfalz Member Posts: 1,261 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I'm at the point in my life where I have some disposal income and don't really spend it on anything but games. See my founder title. I can afford the packs and think some of the stuff in them is pretty cool.

    However! I really feel for people that can't just plop down $60 whenever these packs are announced. I'd really love to see all the pack exclusive stuff be made available in some form later on. Put them on the Zen store for some silly amount, or for trade bars, or whatever. You want it, you can save up the AD for it eventually. Forever exclusivity is pretty lame. I really don't see people buying these packs to lord it over anyone and I think most are like me--we don't really care if others can get this stuff by other means. And if helps support the game by letting people trickle in money later to get the stuff, all the better.

    I personally wouldn't have any problem with this.
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    wingofbenuwingofbenu Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    cribstaxxx wrote: »
    Um I have played roughly 2 months and have not spent any money. I have 6 character slots, epic mount from zen store, ioun stone, a couple fashion items, nearly fully geared CW (except enchants) and pretty well geared GWF. I am FAR from a hardcore player, 1 DD a day at the most if I can even get on at all.

    Edit: I really don't understand the desire to be able to complete everything and have all BiS with rank 8+ enchants easily. that would make the game just not fun, it needs to be somewhat of a grind. I feel sorry for people that just buy everything the moment they hit 60, that is no fun at all imo.


    the thing is. by the time you grind all that out I guarantee you there'll be new BiS with rank 10 enchantments.
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    zebularzebular Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 15,270 Community Moderator
    edited July 2013
    . . . . . I'd much rather buy new classes and races out-right than pay for content. I feel all new races and classes that are not free should be purchasable in the Cash Shop directly and not only obtainable through an expensive Pack, regardless if they are more-or-less just a new skin of a free race.

    . . . . . $60.00 to me, is a whole new game. I understand the package comes with a handful of goodies but when those goodies are equivalent in price to a top-end brand new game, complete with content, then something is wrong with the pricing model of individual store items in the cash shop. There should be no reason to charge this much for these things, in my opinion, unless the package was a complete expansion - which it is not.

    . . . . . I wish they would consider putting up each individual item in these packs in the cash shop for individual sale.


    On to my gripe on Moon Elf marketing:

    . . . . . Also, I feel it is backwards to charge for the Moon Elf. It should be the Sun Elf that is "more special" (if one of the two must be marketed in such a way) for the most common elven sub-race in the Realms are the Moon Elves. Long ago, most of the Sun Elves retreated to Evermeet and other places of seclusion during and after the Crown Wars, thousands of years ago. It was the Moon Elves and Wild (Sylvan/Green) that spread out across the mainlands and make whole communities. Many Sun Elves did remain and continued populating the Mainland, do not get me wrong. Just not on a scale that would make them more common than the Moon Elves.

    . . . . . If any of the other sub-races should be make this "rare" or "special" it should be the Sun Elves or Sea Elves, just most certainly not the Moon Elves despite the fact that Cormanthyr (Myth Drannor) has been rebuilt. Even back in its height, the majority elven sub-race back that were Moon Elves.

    . . . . . I feel this decision goes against Forgotten Realms Lore and makes a false preconception to new players to the Realms on how common (or in this case, uncommon) Moon Elves actually are.
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    wingofbenuwingofbenu Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    zebular wrote: »
    . . . . . I'd much rather buy new classes and races out-right than pay for content. I feel all new races and classes that are not free should be purchasable in the Cash Shop directly and not only obtainable through an expensive Pack, regardless if they are more-or-less just a new skin of a free race.

    . . . . . $60.00 to me, is a whole new game. I understand the package comes with a handful of goodies but when those goodies are equivalent in price to a top-end brand new game, complete with content, then something is wrong with the pricing model of individual store items in the cash shop. There should be no reason to charge this much for these things, in my opinion, unless the package was a complete expansion - which it is not.

    . . . . . I wish they would consider putting up each individual item in these packs in the cash shop for individual sale.


    On to my gripe on Moon Elf marketing:

    . . . . . Also, I feel it is backwards to charge for the Moon Elf. It should be the Sun Elf that is "more special" (if one of the two must be marketed in such a way) for the most common elven sub-race in the Realms are the Moon Elves. Long ago, most of the Sun Elves retreated to Evermeet and other places of seclusion during and after the Crown Wars, thousands of years ago. It was the Moon Elves and Wild (Sylvan/Green) that spread out across the mainlands and make whole communities. Many Sun Elves did remain and continued populating the Mainland, do not get me wrong. Just not on a scale that would make them more common than the Moon Elves.

    . . . . . If any of the other sub-races should be make this "rare" or "special" it should be the Sun Elves or Sea Elves, just most certainly not the Moon Elves despite the fact that Cormanthyr (Myth Drannor) has been rebuilt. Even back in its height, the majority elven sub-race back that were Moon Elves.

    . . . . . I feel this decision goes against Forgotten Realms Lore and makes a false preconception to new players to the Realms on how common (or in this case, uncommon) Moon Elves actually are.

    the thing is..I doubt Cryptic/PWE gives two <edits> about canon. Its just probably slightly more work to make Moon elf textures than give regular elves a golden tan.
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