Proper way to handle PVP bots

alaerick · July 2013

Put a UI option that must be clicked with the mouse in an ever changing location on the screen like a code or a puzzle. Each time a person queues for a PvP round and it pops the code must be entered. It can be something simple, 4 digits, or a phrase. If the box is always moving to a new location and the order of the numbers / letters in different tile locations bots will fail to enter pvp rounds. Problem solved. No other silly solutions required.

Example: Code word - PVPFTW

Example Random Config 1:
|P|X|W|
|V|P|T|
|X|F|X|

Example Random Config 2:
|X|F|P|
|T|X|V|
|W|P|X|

etc.. by clicking the correct code you are entered in to the round. The wrong entry will rearrange the letters to a new random configuration and give the person a second chance to enter it correctly. Two failures and it cancels your queue and forces you to start over. Mind you in my example there's two P's which provides a problem unless either counts as either spot but I figured it would suffice.

Example code #2: 123456789

|4|2|7|
|1|6|9|
|3|5|8|

etc..

Problem solved.

-The End-

oregonize · July 2013

This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Neverwinter Forum Rules of Conduct ~Moderation Team

alaerick · July 2013

lol wtf? All I did was say "Wow you got moderated fast".. Wish I saw it before someone got to it tho. :P

cichard · July 2013

if a human can think of a way to "slow down bots" a human will think of away to by pass such protocol. simple bmp detection could locate and find the order of the letters and do a scaled click. your protocol is flawed.

alaerick · July 2013

cichard wrote: »

if a human can think of a way to "slow down bots" a human will think of away to by pass such protocol. simple bmp detection could locate and find the order of the letters and do a scaled click. your protocol is flawed.

Actually as of the current moment in time no bots are capable of doing this. If the box is always in a different location on the screen and the passphrase alternating and the letters/numbers moving.. it would be a fool proof anti-bot solution.

suxip01111 · July 2013

cichard wrote: »

if a human can think of a way to "slow down bots" a human will think of away to by pass such protocol. simple bmp detection could locate and find the order of the letters and do a scaled click. your protocol is flawed.

Exactly this, it would be child's play to program a bot to solve these puzzles.

The only thing you can do right now is to place any bots you see on your ignore list, which ensures you aren't grouped with that bot (or any bots on the account) ever again (that is, until the bot creator makes more bots).

alaerick · July 2013

suxip01111 wrote: »

Exactly this, it would be child's play to program a bot to solve these puzzles.

The only thing you can do right now is to place any bots you see on your ignore list, which ensures you aren't grouped with that bot (or any bots on the account) ever again (that is, until the bot creator makes more bots).

You are exactly wrong. If you understood how bots work this is far to complex for a simple script to solve. There are too many factors involved to make it work right. If it was possible it would at the very least remove bots from pvp for a long time until someone figured out how to solve this. It would be more trouble than it was worth and would render all current bots obsolete.

stormysg · July 2013

alaerick wrote: »

Actually as of the current moment in time no bots are capable of doing this. If the box is always in a different location on the screen and the passphrase alternating and the letters/numbers moving.. it would be a fool proof anti-bot solution.

That's actually very simple to implement in a bot. I think I can write a script for this in under a day. Once it involves image processing, everything becomes simple. No matter where the box is, positioning is never going to affect a bot. Although if it keeps changing shape and colors then it might take a while for the author to find out all possible combinations, maybe a day or two? just queue and un-queue 50-100 times, take screenies and voila you have nearly all the combinations.

If the bots right now are able to run around, queue for pvp and even attack players with skills, then i suppose the author(s) would be able to by pass this pretty easily.

Still a good idea none-the-less. Needs a bit more thinking and improvement. Right now, it would probably create a few days of bot-less pvp, or at the max a week. After that you'd start seeing them again.

Also, it would be a pain for real humans queuing for pvp having to go through this kind of system.

vampiregoat · July 2013

that thought is not logical captain

lonnehart · July 2013

So Bots are going to be the birth of true Artificial Intelligence if they can solve any puzzle we can throw at them?

kevinf08 · July 2013

Or, you know, they could remove the rewards for losing a pvp match. At least then the bot makers would make bots that don't suck and have half empty slots with greens in the rest. You never know, they might even use a mount too.

alaerick · July 2013

stormysg wrote: »

That's actually very simple to implement in a bot. I think I can write a script for this in under a day. Once it involves image processing, everything becomes simple. No matter where the box is, positioning is never going to affect a bot. Although if it keeps changing shape and colors then it might take a while for the author to find out all possible combinations, maybe a day or two? just queue and un-queue 50-100 times, take screenies and voila you have nearly all the combinations.

If the bots right now are able to run around, queue for pvp and even attack players with skills, then i suppose the author(s) would be able to by pass this pretty easily.

Still a good idea none-the-less. Needs a bit more thinking and improvement. Right now, it would probably create a few days of bot-less pvp, or at the max a week. After that you'd start seeing them again.

Also, it would be a pain for real humans queuing for pvp having to go through this kind of system.

There's a flaw to your logic on this. It's the same reason captcha images work on forums to prevent bots from spamming new accounts. If there is no live text even with image detection the sequence of letters and numbers color combinations and anything else like scribbles through the images etc.. would render the bots ineffectual because it has to solve the puzzle before the timer expires and do so accurately. Even if you did it a few hundred times if it was coded properly to begin with to be truly random it would prevent bots from succeeding. Last I checked image recognition still takes time.. Furthermore, it's much easier to program aimbots and attack sequences since the player is an identifiable object in code and aimbots have been around since the dark ages of online fps gaming. Image recognition is still in it's infancy. hehe but either way if the programmers setup a system that rotated different types of puzzles such as shapes, letters & numbers, emoticons, etc.. every hour randomly no bot would ever be able to catch up.

and personally I'd much rather have to do a puzzle to get in to pvp than deal with bots or any of the other really bad systems others are proposing which can easily be abused such as vote kicking (que multiple accounts on several computers to grief others as an example).

notmuchleft · July 2013

I agree, if captcha images work on forums then why shouldn't this idea work? I think it's an elegant solution and I challenge anyone who thinks a script can be written to circumvent the system to...write such a sample script. Or risk your opinions being seen as nothing of substance.

skarsys · July 2013

In order for bots to not be able to beat this "proposed" system, it needs to have codes that are generated freshly and randomly. If the system uses a number of codes from a list, then in a time frame all possible variations would be known and hence can be scripted.

lonnehart · July 2013

It's one thing to use a puzzle to get into PvP, but what's to keep a Botter from solving the puzzle himself then letting his bots loose after the match begins?

justkaz · July 2013

Some simple steps to stop bots:

1. GMs. Actual GMs has always been the best deterrent against botters, exploiters, and gold sellers. Neverwinter has none, that's why exploiting and botting are so rampant. With real GMs in the game, they can read and investigate reports of botting, then ban the botters fast and easy. It takes money to hire GMs though and PWE will never pay for GMs to monitor this game.

2. Don't allow for PvP potions to be sold back to the vendor for gold. Gold is one of the main reasons why botters bot in PvP after they reached level 60. Take away that incentive and they have 1 less reason to bot.

3. Don't give XP to the losing team below level 60 PvP. This is the other main reason why botters bot in PvP. They level up using PvP because it's fast and easy. Whether they're on the winning or losing team, they get XP. If you made it so that the losing team got no XP, then bots would have little reason to bot in PvP under level 60 because more often than not, the teams they're on loses.

4. Make PvP gear Bind on Pickup. This is the last reason why botters bot in PvP. They acquire PvP gear and sell it on the AH, even though it's for little AD. They don't care though. Any AD is good AD to them so they can sell it for real money. Remove this incentive and they'll stop botting. I never understood why PvP gear was Bind on Equip in the first place...

There you have it. Simple, easy steps to get rid of botting in PvP. I doubt PWE or Cryptic cares enough to address this major problem in Neverwinter though, so most of what I just typed is wasted on deaf ears and blind eyes.

alaerick · July 2013

kevinf08 wrote: »

Or, you know, they could remove the rewards for losing a pvp match. At least then the bot makers would make bots that don't suck and have half empty slots with greens in the rest. You never know, they might even use a mount too.

^^ This is exactly the kind of stupid solution my proposal is to prevent. Removing rewards for losing coupled with timed lockouts for leaving is the fastest way to kill pvp in any game. Is that your goal? I've seen it before it never turns out well.

notmuchleft wrote: »

I agree, if captcha images work on forums then why shouldn't this idea work? I think it's an elegant solution and I challenge anyone who thinks a script can be written to circumvent the system to...write such a sample script. Or risk your opinions being seen as nothing of substance.

Thanks.

lonnehart wrote: »

It's one thing to use a puzzle to get into PvP, but what's to keep a Botter from solving the puzzle himself then letting his bots loose after the match begins?

This is true however, most of these bots are left running 24/7. Stopping botting altogether is a fools errand but reducing them to a level of rarity is much preferred. Most of these bots I would wager are logged in and left running while people work, or are gold seller accounts and unmanaged. That is the only actual benefit of using them. It is worth more to a person to actually play the round and win if their goal is xp, glory or gold from sold items.

justkaz wrote: »

Some simple steps to stop bots:

1. GMs. Actual GMs has always been the best deterrent against botters, exploiters, and gold sellers. Neverwinter has none, that's why exploiting and botting are so rampant. With real GMs in the game, they can read and investigate reports of botting, then ban the botters fast and easy. It takes money to hire GMs though and PWE will never pay for GMs to monitor this game.

2. Don't allow for PvP potions to be sold back to the vendor for gold. Gold is one of the main reasons why botters bot in PvP after they reached level 60. Take away that incentive and they have 1 less reason to bot.

3. Don't give XP to the losing team below level 60 PvP. This is the other main reason why botters bot in PvP. They level up using PvP because it's fast and easy. Whether they're on the winning or losing team, they get XP. If you made it so that the losing team got no XP, then bots would have little reason to bot in PvP under level 60 because more often than not, the teams they're on loses.

4. Make PvP gear Bind on Pickup. This is the last reason why botters bot in PvP. They acquire PvP gear and sell it on the AH, even though it's for little AD. They don't care though. Any AD is good AD to them so they can sell it for real money. Remove this incentive and they'll stop botting. I never understood why PvP gear was Bind on Equip in the first place...

There you have it. Simple, easy steps to get rid of botting in PvP. I doubt PWE or Cryptic cares enough to address this major problem in Neverwinter though, so most of what I just typed is wasted on deaf ears and blind eyes.

1) GMs are the best deterrent for any mischief when coupled with a good system for reporting.. but they also cost money and that in turn comes back to us the players. This is a free game not a p2p game so expecting this kind of active solution is unrealistic tho preferred.

2) This punishes the players more than anything. However, I would concede to this being added in addition to the puzzle to further discourage botting.

3) I believe XP should be removed from PVP period.. but I also enjoy midlevel pvp more than max level pvp where it becomes a RL $$ game of who has the best enchants. But that's just me. So I certainly won't disagree with you here just remove them from both winning and losing because as it stands if winning gets xp botters are still going to bot based on the law of averages.. you win some you lose some.. you are still making a net gain while gone and not playing.

4) I agree with this one too. PVP gear should be BOP.. however that alone nor coupled with the other suggestions would stop botting. I hate to say it but griefers (People who hate pvp so much they will go out of their way to ruin it for others) would still bot just to ruin your fun. Basically saying this might discourage botting but does nothing to prevent it.

yerune · July 2013

alaerick wrote: »

4) I agree with this one too. PVP gear should be BOP.. however that alone nor coupled with the other suggestions would stop botting. I hate to say it but griefers (People who hate pvp so much they will go out of their way to ruin it for others) would still bot just to ruin your fun. Basically saying this might discourage botting but does nothing to prevent it.

It was 'fixed' in a previous patch, right? Thing is, items not for your class won't bind.

alaerick · July 2013

yerune wrote: »

It was 'fixed' in a previous patch, right? Thing is, items not for your class won't bind.

Gold sellers will do anything for a product to sell with huh? I don't know which is worse gold sellers or the people who pay them to ruin games.

skarsys · July 2013

Please don't think of removing EXP gain for losses in PVP, as you end up punishing legit players too, not just bots. There are many ways to deal with bots, punishing legit players should not be one of them, even as collateral damage. I don't want to describe what happened in GW2 to many legit players in the dev war vs bots.

alaerick · July 2013

skarsys wrote: »

Please don't think of removing EXP gain for losses in PVP, as you end up punishing legit players too, not just bots. There are many ways to deal with bots, punishing legit players should not be one of them, even as collateral damage. I don't want to describe what happened in GW2 to many legit players in the dev war vs bots.

Don't get me wrong. I don't support the idea of removing XP from "JUST" the losers.. I believe it should be removed PERIOD. But that's because I want to get geared properly for my level then pvp at that level range and get glory not have to worry that 3 rounds later I'll have out leveled my gear again.. I hate grinding for gear. I just want to pvp in something decent without worrying about the horrible enchant pvp at 60 I have to deal with on my main. :P

utania · July 2013

alaerick wrote: »

Put a UI option that must be clicked with the mouse in an ever changing location on the screen like a code or a puzzle. Each time a person queues for a PvP round and it pops the code must be entered. It can be something simple, 4 digits, or a phrase. If the box is always moving to a new location and the order of the numbers / letters in different tile locations bots will fail to enter pvp rounds. Problem solved. No other silly solutions required.

Example: Code word - PVPFTW

Example Random Config 1:
|P|X|W|
|V|P|T|
|X|F|X|

Example Random Config 2:
|X|F|P|
|T|X|V|
|W|P|X|

So which P do you click first to get the code right

thecurls · July 2013

utania wrote: »

So which P do you click first to get the code right

The grey one.

alaerick · July 2013

utania wrote: »

So which P do you click first to get the code right

alaerick wrote: »

Mind you in my example there's two P's which provides a problem unless either counts as either spot but I figured it would suffice.

:P I covered that

lol

thecurls wrote: »

The grey one.

haha yeah if the boxes were color coded it would make a difference but I was just being silly :P

kroniker · July 2013

Just make PvP gear bound to character and give some more rewards for glory.

sereenawind · July 2013

suxip01111 wrote: »

Exactly this, it would be child's play to program a bot to solve these puzzles.

The only thing you can do right now is to place any bots you see on your ignore list, which ensures you aren't grouped with that bot (or any bots on the account) ever again (that is, until the bot creator makes more bots).

Any bot found should have the person associated with it's accounts, permanently banned!
It is a clear violation of the rules thus they should have their accounts ( any and ALL of them Permanently and irrevocably banned. from their IP addresses not their names! That would keep them from just making a new account at least from that ip address anyway!:p

alaerick · July 2013

sereenawind wrote: »

Any bot found should have the person associated with it's accounts, permanently banned!
It is a clear violation of the rules thus they should have their accounts ( any and ALL of them Permanently and irrevocably banned. from their IP addresses not their names! That would keep them from just making a new account at least from that ip address anyway!:p

While I agree the post you replied to is hyperbole. It's tossing about broad generalizations based on a lack of understanding of how complex code algorithms and image detection actually works. As I pointed out in my initial response to them if they were correct every forum in the world would be flooded by bot spam... yet they aren't because of captcha images which still are too complicated for bots to decode when done properly. My suggestion just takes it a step further to ensure that bots would utterly fail to overcome the requirements of queuing for pvp at all without direct human input.

alaerick · July 2013

kroniker wrote: »

Just make PvP gear bound to character and give some more rewards for glory.

As stated above this won't stop botting. Maybe deter some people who are gold sellers but won't deter people who are using it to afk farm levels while at work or asleep.

thejadeemperor · July 2013

kevinf08 wrote: »

Or, you know, they could remove the rewards for losing a pvp match. At least then the bot makers would make bots that don't suck and have half empty slots with greens in the rest. You never know, they might even use a mount too.

Bots still can win battles. The team with 1 bot has a better chance of beating a team with 2 bots.

kevinf08 · July 2013

sereenawind wrote: »

Any bot found should have the person associated with it's accounts, permanently banned!
It is a clear violation of the rules thus they should have their accounts ( any and ALL of them Permanently and irrevocably banned. from their IP addresses not their names! That would keep them from just making a new account at least from that ip address anyway!:p

IP bans aren't terribly difficult to bypass.

Also there is an issue with this. If that IP is recycled in the future, and a completely different person tried to play NW under that IP address, they will be banned.

Same applies to MAC address bans.

lonnehart · July 2013

How about a seperate Spawn Chamber for PvP? You know.. one that the combatants appear in. After death, you appear in there and must solve that puzzle to get out. If you can't solve it in time or the player decides to AFK in there, they get kicked from the match and are replaced by other players waiting in line to get in.

Proper way to handle PVP bots

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