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You don't want to eploit and cheat un pugs? Enjoy your kick then!

diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 2,894 Arc User
edited July 2013 in General Discussion (PC)
These days, the pressure in pugs has increased. People are getting so excited about getting their chests and rewards as soon as they can that they don't even care about other players in game. Basically, if you don't want to cheat, use every single non-legit shortcut, use all jump+dodge at the same time stuff, run and die to campfire, you either get kicked or you end up alone in your instance. This week, i've not really been able to play any dungeon if i do not accept to cheat because of that. The only safe places now are Pirate king and frozen heart, but finding parties for the latter is getting long and tedious, and i'm a bit bored to see the pirate king's face. I've often been insulted: ret*rd, facsist, <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, idiot, and so on. The social aspect of cheating is clearly friendly and quite fascinating.

Cheating, on the other hand, is cheap: injury kits are so cheap that people don't even care to waste 5 or 10 of them instead of doing 20 mins of content. You can even play with one or two injuries without noticing it. Healing them for free takes 3 mins. Rewards can be huge, the prices on the AH have increased recently.

Cheating is also very achievable. While you can't cheat or skip in a foundry mission, you can in endgame content because there is no objectives, except "kill boss x" to unlock the boss room and the final chest when there's one. The only exception is spellplague, and the plague there is also several races to campfires. Doing karrundax is impossible if you're not ready to use all of the 3 major shortcut, turning this dungeon into a 15-20 mins joke at most. So is the temple of the spider. Just run from one campfire to the next one and you're done in 15 mins. And when the team doesn't run to it, the rogue will unlock it via permastealth.

There's been many reports on the forums since the start and even if changes have been made, it's clearly not enough. The design of dungeons should be more scripted, like "collect x tokens", "kill x monsters", and so on. Cheating should be a lot more expensive resource-wise and less rewarding. Scripted content might be less fun sometimes, but content exploited exploited to death is clearly not fun at all for people who really enjoy the game and the combat mechanics.

I know there are people who don't enjoy fighting and keep playing, and i expect them to complain about "adds" and stuff as usual but allowing people to cheat is never a good option, because it's really frustrating for those who enjoy the game currently.
Post edited by diogene0 on
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Comments

  • linusgorplinusgorp Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 47
    edited July 2013
    Since there are no consequences in exploiting, don't expect it to end any time soon.

    We enforce a zero-exploit policy in our guild and kick those that we catch exploiting, but we are clearly the exception in that.
  • b0r7b0r7 Member Posts: 60 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Neverwinter Forum Rules of Conduct ~Moderation Team
  • arcbladezarcbladez Member Posts: 210 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    This is why I pretty why I've retired my CW. I'm sick and tired of being forced to be a cheater! I spec for DPS, I'm always topping the meters and even blowing away TR's with over 10k GS and I only have 9.6k GS, but none of that matters because the group only wants me to KNOCK STUFF OFF LEDGES!!!

    I'm trying to have fun, but noOOooOoOoOo!

    Leader: "Hey CW, stop DPSing, put sing near that ledge and repel them off!"
    Me: "I'm not spec for pushback"
    You have been kicked from group.

    Good! I love being kicked for not cheating. It saves me the time from right-clicking my portrait and leaving the group myself.
  • karitrkaritr Member Posts: 662 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    Allowing stuff to be knocked off ledges was the development team's intention! That's why they put ledges there and why they gave us knockback skills.

    Heck even after a developer comes to the forum and states this is a valid and intentional play-style, people still can't get it. Arc, you are getting kicked because you are not making proper use of your class potential, not for any other reason.
  • bioshrikebioshrike Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,729 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I don't view using knocks as exploiting - it's the race to the next campfire, clipping issues, wall climbing, and 'hole in map' kinda stuff that's exploiting in my book. Heck, even sneaking past enemies is ok - as long as you aren't taking advantage of buggy AI or anything.
    <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::>
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  • trollgretrollgre Member Posts: 297
    edited July 2013
    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Neverwinter Forum Rules of Conduct ~Moderation Team
  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 2,894 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    bioshrike wrote: »
    I don't view using knocks as exploiting - it's the race to the next campfire, clipping issues, wall climbing, and 'hole in map' kinda stuff that's exploiting in my book. Heck, even sneaking past enemies is ok - as long as you aren't taking advantage of buggy AI or anything.

    Agreed. I don't mind a few skips if the map allows you not to aggro the npcs. But because of the bad quest design (it's impossible to design a map without any exploitable content), you can run through the dungeon without doing anything but going to the boss.
  • bioshrikebioshrike Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,729 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    diogene0 wrote: »
    Agreed. I don't mind a few skips if the map allows you not to aggro the npcs. But because of the bad quest design (it's impossible to design a map without any exploitable content), you can run through the dungeon without doing anything but going to the boss.

    Well, there are a few things they could do to address the common exploits:

    1. Campfires don't unlock until all team members have made it to them.
    2. Add doors behind all bosses that don't open until the boss is defeated.
    3. Add invisible walls along the quest paths so you can't just jump down to get to a point further ahead.
    3. Similar to #2 above, campfires that come right after a boss don't unlock until after the boss is defeated.
    4. In the case of Dungeon Delves, the chest at the end only unlocks after all bosses in the dungeon have been defeated.
    <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::>
    "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
    Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 2,894 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    bioshrike wrote: »
    Well, there are a few things they could do to address the common exploits:

    1. Campfires don't unlock until all team members have made it to them.
    2. Add doors behind all bosses that don't open until the boss is defeated.
    3. Add invisible walls along the quest paths so you can't just jump down to get to a point further ahead.
    3. Similar to #2 above, campfires that come right after a boss don't unlock until after the boss is defeated.
    4. In the case of Dungeon Delves, the chest at the end only unlocks after all bosses in the dungeon have been defeated.

    Wouldn't solve most of the exploits. Creating a quest inside the dungeon to make people collecting items dropping from npcs or hidden behind mob packs, and increasing the cost of kits by 10 would be more effective imo. But that's up to cryptic to find the solution, i'm just saying there's a problem
  • katbozejziemikatbozejziemi Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 856 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    So you basically made a thread to boast about using exploits even though using exploits is a violation of the ToS?
    Haha, okay.
  • dardovedardove Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    So you basically made a thread to boast about using exploits even though using exploits is a violation of the ToS?
    Haha, okay.

    I think you read the thread wrong.
  • mconosrepmconosrep Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    So you basically made a thread to boast about using exploits even though using exploits is a violation of the ToS?
    Haha, okay.

    1/10 and that is generous.
  • kiraliakiralia Member Posts: 383 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    linusgorp wrote: »
    Since there are no consequences in exploiting, don't expect it to end any time soon.

    We enforce a zero-exploit policy in our guild and kick those that we catch exploiting, but we are clearly the exception in that.

    Shard and guild name? I know a few people who would be interested in that.
  • tickledpinkstickledpinks Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 276 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    Question you need to ask yourself is this: "Does banning these folks and fixing these shortcuts and exploits further their business ZEN model?..or does it hinder it?' I believe you'll realize the answer is pretty clear.
  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 2,894 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Question you need to ask yourself is this: "Does banning these folks and fixing these shortcuts and exploits further their business ZEN model?..or does it hinder it?' I believe you'll realize the answer is pretty clear.

    I'm not asking for bans, i don't mind. I'm just telling i'd really like to see actual dungeon fixes. Something fixing all exploits once and for all.
  • lewstelamon01lewstelamon01 Member Posts: 7,415 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    So you basically made a thread to boast about using exploits even though using exploits is a violation of the ToS?
    Haha, okay.

    He wasn't boasting. He was asking "why are so many PuGs eager to use exploits and not care about the consequences?"
    ROLL TIDE ROLL

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  • kanenankanenan Member Posts: 115 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    The more people cheat, the cheaper things will get, the more people will get bored and frustrated.. and then more people will leave. It IS a problem, I agree with the OP that it isn't right, and that some new mechanics need to be introduced to endgame content to ensure that groups MUST CLEAR the WHOLE thing. Then.. and only then.. will there be any respect for top geared players, b/c at the moment.. there isn't any. Having Perfect everything is a massive indicator that you either got away clean exploiting or cheating or (very rare here) you really truly dominate the AH or spent an enormous sum at the zen shop.
    - behold, halflings.
  • imsmithyimsmithy Member Posts: 1,378 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    The perfect example of an exploitable map is the new Fardelvers Crypt in Gaunt , it actually seems more desirable to speed run the T1 dungeon 3 or 4 or even more times in the 30 minutes it is open than to do the harder T2 one , it's possible to get the entire Gaunt armor set and weapon in less then a week lol
  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 2,894 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    imsmithy wrote: »
    The perfect example of an exploitable map is the new Fardelvers Crypt in Gaunt , it actually seems more desirable to speed run the T1 dungeon 3 or 4 or even more times in the 30 minutes it is open than to do the harder T2 one , it's possible to get the entire Gaunt armor set and weapon in less then a week lol

    Doing 3 legit runs within 30 mins is achievable. I've done it several times. But the map and quest design allow cheats i don't even want to know. I know some can get under the map via a pillar or something like that. The stealth rogue exploit rules though.
  • kindyrekindyre Member Posts: 101
    edited July 2013
    I've pretty much stopped running epic dungeons because of this. Running dungeons is only fun below 60 now, while leveling alts... and even there people are in such a hurry to finish the dungeon that most of the time they don't talk or explore or do any of the optional content. Just bumrush for the boss. Really frustrating.
  • tharsoniusvbtharsoniusvb Member Posts: 43
    edited July 2013
    I agree, exploiting is really an issue. It has gone so far, that people don't even realise that they are exploiting. Just today I ran Karrundax with a random group and of cause it didn't take long before someone said "Die at campfire". I just asked politely, if we could maybe run this without cheats or exploits, because it just is boring and cheap. Well, I was informed that this is no exploit, this is how it's meant to be. Silly me. Obviously it's so common by now that doing a straight run seems alien to a lot of people. The developers really have to do something about this. Exploits and bugs in the dungeons need to be fixed. This is imho much more important than any new content. Before you give as new stuff (and belive me, i do want new endgame content) fix what is already there.
  • admanteadmante Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    The constant exploits have made me stop playing for the most part. Dungeons are the main content for me and I want to actually run them rather than run to the end as fast as possible. Now I just do professions and wait for changes. Cryptic is losing lots of players like me if they don't fix things.
  • tickledpinkstickledpinks Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 276 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    well..to some folks..cheap drops..cheap dungeons..cheap dungeon boss mechanics lends themselves to cheap exploits. I'm sorry but if I run a T2 dungeon and repeatedly get T1 RNG drops that aren't even worth 2 gold, I'm not surprised some people don't think these are exploits..or don't care.
  • tharsoniusvbtharsoniusvb Member Posts: 43
    edited July 2013
    To a certain extend i also can understand it. I am not even really blaming the players. The stingy rewards, the dungeon delve mechanic, that makes dungeon runs outside of DD-time completly pointless, all this encourages players to exploit and cheat. The fault is with the developers. Exploits and bugs in dungeons are known for a long time and hardly anything gets fixed. It seems they just don't care or this is just very low priority. But the should care, because i'm sure they will lose and probably have lost a lot of players through this. But instead of taking care of these issues, they give us a broken Gauntlrym as new content, with a dungeon just as exploitable as the rest
  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 2,894 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    well..to some folks..cheap drops..cheap dungeons..cheap dungeon boss mechanics lends themselves to cheap exploits. I'm sorry but if I run a T2 dungeon and repeatedly get T1 RNG drops that aren't even worth 2 gold, I'm not surprised some people don't think these are exploits..or don't care.

    Basic statement: the more it drops the less valuable it is. If T2 dropped all the time it would be completely worthless. Thus the current droprates are fine. It's even a bit high, i keep getting T2s repeatedly. Half of the time.
  • infernal667infernal667 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    With the current dungeon design short cuts are needed. The content is so boring that I cannot condemn anyone for bypassing everything. The adds are uninspring, the bosses are uninspiring, the dungeons are uninspiring linear, the complexity is low. Its just brain off and rush through. Why would I ever want to do those pre boss areas voluntarily?

    Maybe if the adds dropped AD I might reconsider. But until it is worth my time to kill them I will try to bypass. If the developers really want us to fight everything they can just add doors. But they do not, so I feel it is OK to run to the next camp and die or to use the terrain to bypass stuff.

    Dont worry, REAL exploits like walking under the map are getting removed one by one. I do really hope that the new dungeons will be more interesting. Otherwise it is back to 'speed run now!'.
  • imsmithyimsmithy Member Posts: 1,378 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    diogene0 wrote: »
    Doing 3 legit runs within 30 mins is achievable. I've done it several times. But the map and quest design allow cheats i don't even want to know. I know some can get under the map via a pillar or something like that. The stealth rogue exploit rules though.

    I know that and that's the sad part , it seems that now at least 3 out of every 5 times I join a pug for that dungeon its either do it the 'fast' way or the highway , I'm a CW on my main so I know how annoying it is when you feel pressured into for want of a better word cheating , its not a very comfortable position to be in when your halfway through a epic with the DD timer ticking away and the other 4 players are basically expecting you to just use AS to sweep everything up and then repel it all off a cliff , not only that but its incredibly tedious gameplay , just joined a guild (Imba) who doesn't really look too kindly on using shortcuts or exploits so hopefully I'll have a regular group at some point in the near future who don't just miss everything possible.
  • avidlurkeravidlurker Member Posts: 43
    edited July 2013
    I'm on the fence about repelling.

    I do believe it is intended game play, especially in some situations like the triple marsh mystics or triple hallucinated erynies in Dread Vault.
    But I also believe it seems to be extremely overused towards the high end.

    Glitching your way through a dungeon, camp fire respawns after /killme or similar though I put squarely into the exploit category and all excuses as to way it's justified are just that, excuses.
    It's all about loot and selling it on the AH, nothing else.

    In the light of all the discussed exploits I find it laughable that people are crying for new content. I translate it now as: give us new stuff to exploit, the profit margin on the AH is too little for our liking.
  • wolfiswolfis Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Pushing mobs off ledges was the level designers' intention. You only have to play FH (full run) to see that there are cliffs staggered evenly to encourage the team to do exactly that.

    I can't stand these 'holier than thou' scrubs preaching that this is an exploit. Get off your high horse and wake up to yourself.
  • aislehealzjuaislehealzju Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Question you need to ask yourself is this: "Does banning these folks and fixing these shortcuts and exploits further their business ZEN model?..or does it hinder it?' I believe you'll realize the answer is pretty clear.

    I think that it Improves the zen bussiness model because the content will last much longer in the long run therefor increasing revenue.
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