If they make bosses more interesting, complex, and harder, while cutting back the adds by a lot, then people would feel much better when they eventually fix exploits.
The infinitely spawning/respawning adds only adds to the resentment that makes people want to exploit.
Ex: "I'm sick and tired of spending so much time on Grast and his huge legion of Trolls. I can barely move, the mobs are so thick. If only there was some way I never had to see him again..."
If you ask me, GG's T2 boss is the perfect example of this. The boss is difficult and requires some strategy, but there isn't a huge amount of adds that you need to control. A decent team can kill this boss, with only a few troubles. The experience is fun, though, if you ask me. The problem is the rewards suck, which makes less people want to win GG.
If they make bosses more interesting, complex, and harder, while cutting back the adds by a lot, then people would feel much better when they eventually fix exploits.
The infinitely spawning/respawning adds only adds to the resentment that makes people want to exploit.
Ex: "I'm sick and tired of spending so much time on Grast and his huge legion of Trolls. I can barely move, the mobs are so thick. If only there was some way I never had to see him again..."
If you ask me, GG's T2 boss is the perfect example of this. The boss is difficult and requires some strategy, but there isn't a huge amount of adds that you need to control. A decent team can kill this boss, with only a few troubles. The experience is fun, though, if you ask me. The problem is the rewards suck, which makes less people want to win GG.
The boss is easy and is a walk in the park. It's just a specific rotation you don't even need to worry about, it will always work! No adds made this boss a bit boring, nothing much to do for support classes. But when did this thread turned into another rant about adds? I'm not sure adds are a relevant issue. People not enjoying the combat mechanics will quit the game anyway. It won't change, neverwinter won't become a RTS or a FPS, it will always be an action game with a lot of red stuff to dodge or tank.
And honestly, i think that people not enjoying the game ruining the fun of people enjoying it is a more critical issue than trying to make changes to the core of the game, because this is highly unlikely to happen.
Pushing mobs off ledges was the level designers' intention. You only have to play FH (full run) to see that there are cliffs staggered evenly to encourage the team to do exactly that.
I can't stand these 'holier than thou' scrubs preaching that this is an exploit. Get off your high horse and wake up to yourself.
Agreed but you know what?..the louder they scream the more will get changed to their liking..was in Spider yesterday and they had put up a fence plus an invisi wall (about 5 feet in length) right before you get to the last campfire...cant punt there anymore.
Again the same post, give mobs decent random drops (blue/purple resources,enchants,runes at 1/100 1/1000 ratio) and suddenly people will kill mobs with pleasure, 1 t2 dungeon has roughly 1k mobs, so 1 random extra purple drop from mobs wont affect the market, and people will even try to avoid throwing some out ledges...
Also, make bosses drop unique items too at 1/100 ratio, for example, Karrundax can drop a wyrmling mount 1/100, that would turn people crazy for doing the dungeon even out of Delves... Pirate king can drop a Parrot augment companion, Spider queen a lolth priestess fashion costume... etc... all at 1/100 ratio... that will extend the game playability 3x, increase the sales for millions of $...
In fact, extend it further, the purple enchants could be 1/1000 Rank 7, 1/10000 Rank 8, 1/100000 Rank 9, 1/1000000 Rank 10... ok, you only have 1 chance between 1 million of hitting the lottery... but that simple change would probably DOUBLE the profit from PWI...
Agreed but you know what?..the louder they scream the more will get changed to their liking..was in Spider yesterday and they had put up a fence plus an invisi wall (about 5 feet in length) right before you get to the last campfire...cant punt there anymore.
Almost 100% positive what you are actually describing is how they keep people from getting on the wall to jump into boss room. Not some small concession to the people who cant seem to shut up about ledges.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
Almost 100% positive what you are actually describing is how they keep people from getting on the wall to jump into boss room. Not some small concession to the people who cant seem to shut up about ledges.
If that's where they thought "the big bad ledge" was that helped players into boss room..they got it really really wrong.;)
Again the same post, give mobs decent random drops (blue/purple resources,enchants,runes at 1/100 1/1000 ratio) and suddenly people will kill mobs with pleasure, 1 t2 dungeon has roughly 1k mobs, so 1 random extra purple drop from mobs wont affect the market, and people will even try to avoid throwing some out ledges...
Also, make bosses drop unique items too at 1/100 ratio, for example, Karrundax can drop a wyrmling mount 1/100, that would turn people crazy for doing the dungeon even out of Delves... Pirate king can drop a Parrot augment companion, Spider queen a lolth priestess fashion costume... etc... all at 1/100 ratio... that will extend the game playability 3x, increase the sales for millions of $...
In fact, extend it further, the purple enchants could be 1/1000 Rank 7, 1/10000 Rank 8, 1/100000 Rank 9, 1/1000000 Rank 10... ok, you only have 1 chance between 1 million of hitting the lottery... but that simple change would probably DOUBLE the profit from PWI...
Your commonsense and logic are not appreciated here.....
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pickygamerMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
This is why I pretty why I've retired my CW. I'm sick and tired of being forced to be a cheater! I spec for DPS, I'm always topping the meters and even blowing away TR's with over 10k GS and I only have 9.6k GS, but none of that matters because the group only wants me to KNOCK STUFF OFF LEDGES!!!
I'm trying to have fun, but noOOooOoOoOo!
Leader: "Hey CW, stop DPSing, put sing near that ledge and repel them off!"
Me: "I'm not spec for pushback"
You have been kicked from group.
Good! I love being kicked for not cheating. It saves me the time from right-clicking my portrait and leaving the group myself.
Ledges we can fall down and they have no invisible walls. This is in the majority of dungeons, so how is it cheating? Can you show me where they said there is to be no punting off ledges? I know they made some fixes to a dungeon here and there but they certainly left tons of pits, cliffs, voids etc in all the dungeons. And in all honesty, no one cares about your dps.....we only have CONTROL wizards and thats why people want CONTROL wizards in their party. Please keep your cw retired.
adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
edited July 2013
I have no issues whatsoever with blowing someone off an edge - it is just a matter of an ability working as intended. However, I hate something like intentional dying to skip to a campfire ahead - that is an exploit as far as I am concerned - I don't like it, and I don't participate in it. Fortunately I have found a guild (on Mindflayer) of people who understand that the game is all about having fun - not about mad races to end bosses.
So, to the OP - if you don't like exploiting, find a good guild of like-minded people and stay away from PUGs.
thats why, when i queue, i only queue for SPellplague and pirate.. used to do karrundax, but as you said, you cant find a group to do it normal with unless you are with guildies.
its a real issue and i hope they will resolve it by eventually getting rid of the exploits - i am no programmer but i can't imagine that it is SOOO hard to get rid of all these shortcuts... just put a wall somewhere or replace the campfire for a few inches... but yeah, this is the one factor that - to me - is really destroying the gaming-experience. i can live with most of the stuff people complain, but making doing normal content impossible is a bad joke and a shame for any game.
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juliusmalemaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 11Arc User
edited July 2013
This is the exact reason I stopped playing this game - i do visit the forums from time to time to see if things have improved - sadly it seems like it is still happening.
5min CN runs seem to be the latest fad. But if you could exploit a raid dungeon in 5min and fulfill your gear grind in an hour would you do it? of course...
5min CN runs seem to be the latest fad. But if you could exploit a raid dungeon in 5min and fulfill your gear grind in an hour would you do it? of course...
Great, so there is another exploit
So glad that I mainly run alts, so at least it means I can get my paws on cheaper Epic gear ^^
Wouldn't solve most of the exploits. Creating a quest inside the dungeon to make people collecting items dropping from npcs or hidden behind mob packs, and increasing the cost of kits by 10 would be more effective imo. But that's up to cryptic to find the solution, i'm just saying there's a problem
They could always just design a dungeon that is fun to play, like one with minimal add management.
I was in Karrundax today.. I am a GF. I just didn't feel like skipping every lil exploit run to camp die especially on stuff. So I left. Someone PM me a nice nasty msg but I don't care. All dungeons are terrible and it would be nice to actually do most of them and not exploit. Its really not hard to clear trash. I don't care if you get your chest or not. You don't deserve it if you don't clear content up to it. Make that the DD fix. Have to clear all trash or you don't get chest.
I was in Karrundax today.. I am a GF. I just didn't feel like skipping every lil exploit run to camp die especially on stuff. So I left. Someone PM me a nice nasty msg but I don't care. All dungeons are terrible and it would be nice to actually do most of them and not exploit. Its really not hard to clear trash. I don't care if you get your chest or not. You don't deserve it if you don't clear content up to it. Make that the DD fix. Have to clear all trash or you don't get chest.
Not boring enough. Delve chest needs to require an enchanted key to open.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
There a certain factors you take into Consideration when discussing game mechanics and over all designs.
How are you not sure that this was Intended?
If this is as wide scale as you say it is, developers would have known about it, and if that they would more and likely wait until an expansion pack before they could tackle that.
I believe that the focus of this is to make you do more Foundry dungeons that Cryptic ones though that's my opinion. But if something is not breaking game play its not really cheating, they just find a quicker way to do it and get what they want.
Why fight when you can run?
Though if someone wants to die to reach the next campfire that's just the user using there head, there is nothing in game design logic that would make a game maker for see that's what people are doing, Don't blame cryptic or PW blame the users they are the ones that are doing its not the Game Mechanics they are just using the game Mechanics in a exploitable way. The only fix to that is having Check points and making them start over from the last Camp Fire not the one ahead.
Or just lock them into a room where if you don't clear at-least 90% of it, then you can't go forward.
I was in Karrundax today.. I am a GF. I just didn't feel like skipping every lil exploit run to camp die especially on stuff. So I left. Someone PM me a nice nasty msg but I don't care. All dungeons are terrible and it would be nice to actually do most of them and not exploit. Its really not hard to clear trash. I don't care if you get your chest or not. You don't deserve it if you don't clear content up to it. Make that the DD fix. Have to clear all trash or you don't get chest.
Heh i agree with you. NWs pve simply sucks. No role playing, just mindless grinding and red spot avoiding. Anybody can do it. The biggest joke so far is that TRs tank boss while the actual tank fights the trash.
You folks need to wait until you have run some of these dungeons 50 or so times....then you will understand why people cut corners to get to the end bosses. You guys want to kill the 40 trash and mini bosses before the next campfire? Nah, after doing it repeatedly you will appreciate the run to campfire and die. Saving 10-30 minutes a run adds up.
I am still leveling my GF but the endgame doesn't sound good... especially the campfire die run...
For the campfire, i think the best solution is a timer, like 10 mins between each campfire.
- for the good teams it's not a problem if they are "too efficient" and reach the next campfire in 5 mins... death is not an option so campfires are useless !
- for the common teams, the next campfire will turns on, no problem,
- for the team who "don't like all those fights" : one of them skips the content, takes a coffee and waits ~9 mins until the campfire turns on, the rest of the team dies, and they repeat to the next campfire...
And if players need a reason to kill all the boss, I think it could be fun if during the final boss fight, all boss alive spam in addition of the usual reinforcement :
- good challenge for the great and/or overgear and/or hardcore players !
- and for the others => kill all boss one by one before the final boss^^
I am still leveling my GF but the endgame doesn't sound good... especially the campfire die run...
For the campfire, i think the best solution is a timer, like 10 mins between each campfire.
- for the good teams it's not a problem if they are "too efficient" and reach the next campfire in 5 mins... death is not an option so campfires are useless !
- for the common teams, the next campfire will turns on, no problem,
- for the team who "don't like all those fights" : one of them skips the content, takes a coffee and waits ~9 mins until the campfire turns on, the rest of the team dies, and they repeat to the next campfire...
And if players need a reason to kill all the boss, I think it could be fun if during the final boss fight, all boss alive spam in addition of the usual reinforcement :
- good challenge for the great and/or overgear and/or hardcore players !
- and for the others => kill all boss one by one before the final boss^^
So now you want to add a time component? Why?
Let me repeat - Once you run a dungeon 20+ times you will understand WHY people skip a lot of trash. Adding 10 minutes per campfire to unlock is asking for each and every run to be increased by 30+ minutes.
allowing stuff to be knocked off ledges was the development team's intention! That's why they put ledges there and why they gave us knockback skills.
Heck even after a developer comes to the forum and states this is a valid and intentional play-style, people still can't get it. Arc, you are getting kicked because you are not making proper use of your class potential, not for any other reason.
This is why I pretty why I've retired my CW. I'm sick and tired of being forced to be a cheater! I spec for DPS, I'm always topping the meters and even blowing away TR's with over 10k GS and I only have 9.6k GS, but none of that matters because the group only wants me to KNOCK STUFF OFF LEDGES!!!
I'm trying to have fun, but noOOooOoOoOo!
Leader: "Hey CW, stop DPSing, put sing near that ledge and repel them off!"
Me: "I'm not spec for pushback"
You have been kicked from group.
Good! I love being kicked for not cheating. It saves me the time from right-clicking my portrait and leaving the group myself.
You realize the mobs remaining hp is added to your dps? So your rocking numbers are likely from being forced to push mobs off ledges.
Heh i agree with you. NWs pve simply sucks. No role playing, just mindless grinding and red spot avoiding. Anybody can do it. The biggest joke so far is that TRs tank boss while the actual tank fights the trash.
I dont get this complaint. In this game adds are much more dangerous an the boss. As the tank shouldnt you handle the most dangerous element in the fight?
I like the change from other mmos. Standing in front of the boss gets boring after awhile.
I dont get this complaint. In this game adds are much more dangerous an the boss. As the tank shouldnt you handle the most dangerous element in the fight?
I like the change from other mmos. Standing in front of the boss gets boring after awhile.
You folks need to wait until you have run some of these dungeons 50 or so times....then you will understand why people cut corners to get to the end bosses. You guys want to kill the 40 trash and mini bosses before the next campfire? Nah, after doing it repeatedly you will appreciate the run to campfire and die. Saving 10-30 minutes a run adds up.
I've done those 50 runs you're talking about. I'm still having fun. I guess i'm oneof the lucky peoeple who like the game and enjoy it. Why would you prevent people who enjoy the game to do it just to get rewards you don't even need?
The sad truth: The designers of the end-boss fight adding adds approach are the ones exploiting the players, not the other way around. We play (and many pay) to have fun and to have challenging fights - but also to have a variety of experiences, not the same boss fight in different rooms skinned differently.
Comments
The infinitely spawning/respawning adds only adds to the resentment that makes people want to exploit.
Ex: "I'm sick and tired of spending so much time on Grast and his huge legion of Trolls. I can barely move, the mobs are so thick. If only there was some way I never had to see him again..."
If you ask me, GG's T2 boss is the perfect example of this. The boss is difficult and requires some strategy, but there isn't a huge amount of adds that you need to control. A decent team can kill this boss, with only a few troubles. The experience is fun, though, if you ask me. The problem is the rewards suck, which makes less people want to win GG.
The boss is easy and is a walk in the park. It's just a specific rotation you don't even need to worry about, it will always work! No adds made this boss a bit boring, nothing much to do for support classes. But when did this thread turned into another rant about adds? I'm not sure adds are a relevant issue. People not enjoying the combat mechanics will quit the game anyway. It won't change, neverwinter won't become a RTS or a FPS, it will always be an action game with a lot of red stuff to dodge or tank.
And honestly, i think that people not enjoying the game ruining the fun of people enjoying it is a more critical issue than trying to make changes to the core of the game, because this is highly unlikely to happen.
Agreed but you know what?..the louder they scream the more will get changed to their liking..was in Spider yesterday and they had put up a fence plus an invisi wall (about 5 feet in length) right before you get to the last campfire...cant punt there anymore.
Also, make bosses drop unique items too at 1/100 ratio, for example, Karrundax can drop a wyrmling mount 1/100, that would turn people crazy for doing the dungeon even out of Delves... Pirate king can drop a Parrot augment companion, Spider queen a lolth priestess fashion costume... etc... all at 1/100 ratio... that will extend the game playability 3x, increase the sales for millions of $...
In fact, extend it further, the purple enchants could be 1/1000 Rank 7, 1/10000 Rank 8, 1/100000 Rank 9, 1/1000000 Rank 10... ok, you only have 1 chance between 1 million of hitting the lottery... but that simple change would probably DOUBLE the profit from PWI...
Almost 100% positive what you are actually describing is how they keep people from getting on the wall to jump into boss room. Not some small concession to the people who cant seem to shut up about ledges.
If that's where they thought "the big bad ledge" was that helped players into boss room..they got it really really wrong.;)
Your commonsense and logic are not appreciated here.....
Ledges we can fall down and they have no invisible walls. This is in the majority of dungeons, so how is it cheating? Can you show me where they said there is to be no punting off ledges? I know they made some fixes to a dungeon here and there but they certainly left tons of pits, cliffs, voids etc in all the dungeons. And in all honesty, no one cares about your dps.....we only have CONTROL wizards and thats why people want CONTROL wizards in their party. Please keep your cw retired.
http://black-marker-guild.com/index.php?topic=8.0
Back to topic.
So, to the OP - if you don't like exploiting, find a good guild of like-minded people and stay away from PUGs.
its a real issue and i hope they will resolve it by eventually getting rid of the exploits - i am no programmer but i can't imagine that it is SOOO hard to get rid of all these shortcuts... just put a wall somewhere or replace the campfire for a few inches... but yeah, this is the one factor that - to me - is really destroying the gaming-experience. i can live with most of the stuff people complain, but making doing normal content impossible is a bad joke and a shame for any game.
This game, for me at least, is one big fail.
Great, so there is another exploit
So glad that I mainly run alts, so at least it means I can get my paws on cheaper Epic gear ^^
They could always just design a dungeon that is fun to play, like one with minimal add management.
Not boring enough. Delve chest needs to require an enchanted key to open.
How are you not sure that this was Intended?
If this is as wide scale as you say it is, developers would have known about it, and if that they would more and likely wait until an expansion pack before they could tackle that.
I believe that the focus of this is to make you do more Foundry dungeons that Cryptic ones though that's my opinion. But if something is not breaking game play its not really cheating, they just find a quicker way to do it and get what they want.
Why fight when you can run?
Though if someone wants to die to reach the next campfire that's just the user using there head, there is nothing in game design logic that would make a game maker for see that's what people are doing, Don't blame cryptic or PW blame the users they are the ones that are doing its not the Game Mechanics they are just using the game Mechanics in a exploitable way. The only fix to that is having Check points and making them start over from the last Camp Fire not the one ahead.
Or just lock them into a room where if you don't clear at-least 90% of it, then you can't go forward.
Heh i agree with you. NWs pve simply sucks. No role playing, just mindless grinding and red spot avoiding. Anybody can do it. The biggest joke so far is that TRs tank boss while the actual tank fights the trash.
For the campfire, i think the best solution is a timer, like 10 mins between each campfire.
- for the good teams it's not a problem if they are "too efficient" and reach the next campfire in 5 mins... death is not an option so campfires are useless !
- for the common teams, the next campfire will turns on, no problem,
- for the team who "don't like all those fights" : one of them skips the content, takes a coffee and waits ~9 mins until the campfire turns on, the rest of the team dies, and they repeat to the next campfire...
And if players need a reason to kill all the boss, I think it could be fun if during the final boss fight, all boss alive spam in addition of the usual reinforcement :
- good challenge for the great and/or overgear and/or hardcore players !
- and for the others => kill all boss one by one before the final boss^^
So now you want to add a time component? Why?
Let me repeat - Once you run a dungeon 20+ times you will understand WHY people skip a lot of trash. Adding 10 minutes per campfire to unlock is asking for each and every run to be increased by 30+ minutes.
this.......................................................................
"Sir, were now surrounded"!
Thats great news son, now we can attack from ALL sides"!
You realize the mobs remaining hp is added to your dps? So your rocking numbers are likely from being forced to push mobs off ledges.
I dont get this complaint. In this game adds are much more dangerous an the boss. As the tank shouldnt you handle the most dangerous element in the fight?
I like the change from other mmos. Standing in front of the boss gets boring after awhile.
I agree...adds left unchecked are no joke.
I've done those 50 runs you're talking about. I'm still having fun. I guess i'm oneof the lucky peoeple who like the game and enjoy it. Why would you prevent people who enjoy the game to do it just to get rewards you don't even need?
Seems you are right, my post (as others i made with this elegant, perfect, easy to implement solution) has been blatantly ignored
They exploited us first!
Amillion Dollars L60 'easy mode' GWF