"Community Moderator for the Neverwinter forum. My opinions and views do not reflect those of Perfect World Entertainment or Cryptic Studios. Don't poke the bear."
Actually, they do.
I have just realized this game is dead. Why do I never listen to what people are saying on forums before I start a new game?
They have to go to the ROOT of the problem: Why do the bots queue for PvP?, when they find the answer, then they have to solve it no matter what.
If you google around, and read some of the MMO exploiter and botting forums, PvP is an easy method of AFK levelling. A lot of the better farming exploits need lv 60 chars, so this makes sense.
Admittedly, some of the botters are just people who are sick of levelling yet another alt, but that doesn't make it right, either. Making PvP not give XP, just glory, would at least move the problem around, and reduce its impact on PvP. That's not as big a win as you might imagine, though. While normal Foundry quests are horribly difficult for bots, there are a bunch designed specifically to be easy for them, which is an ominous development. It might well be the Next Big Thing, sadly.
(This makes me a sad kitten, the Foundry is the thing that attracted me to the game, after all. There's some great stuff there. "A Clash Of Wills", anyone?)
It's a knotty problem, and non-trivial to solve, though Crytic are doing a worse job than most. This game is currently a popular "training wheels" game for neophyte bot developers, as well as people making in-process hacks; the barriers to entry need to be a little higher. Even Warframe (which is shockingly buggy) managed their anti-cheating stuff better than this.
The game can't tell why you're quitting the match. Or if its voluntary or not. Anyone can pull the plug. You'd have to add that punishment to everyone. Then if you get disconected for some reason, *poof* there went your pvp bonus hour.
A leavers penalty (such as not being able to requeue for some time) is used in many mmos and MOBA. It does cut down on leavers. It also sets a standard for the game's culture, it makes it clear that leaving is in bad form and that if you sign up for a game you are expected to play to the end. The inconvenience that may cause at times to an individual is far outweighed by the benefits it provides to the community and the game as a whole.
Dont bother, these moderators are basically the developers lackeys. In other words, they are useless and their opinions should not be taken seriously.
I'm surprised they haven't deleted your post, banned you, and/or locked this thread yet. That's usually what the mods do when you prove them wrong and make them look bad on these forums.
Mods deleting proof of invulnerability hacks shows that they and PWE wants to sweep this huge problem under the rug, just like I said before. We're bringing awareness to the exploits, bugs, and hacks in this game, yet they want to hide it from the public and pretend like it's not an issue.
I'm surprised they haven't deleted your post, banned you, and/or locked this thread yet. That's usually what the mods do when you prove them wrong and make them look bad on these forums.
Mods deleting proof of invulnerability hacks shows that they and PWE wants to sweep this huge problem under the rug, just like I said before. We're bringing awareness to the exploits, bugs, and hacks in this game, yet they want to hide it from the public and pretend like it's not an issue.
Actually the mods in this forum are really accepting and give the community a lot of leeway to express its opinion. They are also volunteers as far as know, which means they care a lot more about the game than most people here, since they are willing to give their time for free. I have strongly disagreed with some of the mods opinions in the past, but they have never silenced my voice because of that.
If you want to see HAMSTER moderation at work, go and play on the GW2 forums, the comment you just made would earn you a perma ban most likely. I assure you the mods here are amazingly open minded and liberal.
Yeah, there is no need to "bring awareness" about exploits to anyone but to the developers directly by reporting it through the methods given to you. Those are the folks that can actually do something about it. Unfortunately, by airing them on public forums, you SHARE the exploit, making the problem take much longer to clean up.
That's just one of the major reasons NOT to discuss, promote, share exploits of any kind on the forums. And it doesn't matter who discussed it first, if you discuss it, link to it, share it, you can and probably will be banned.
This is simply in the best interests for those of us who do care about the game, the community, and the future of the game.
And some guess wrong. A PWE/Cryptic moderator's opinion is always our own, unless we are delivering a specific message from a specific Cryptic employee (we are not employees, we are volunteers). In other words, we are gamers as yourself, who have been chosen to administer the forums, and help ensure it becomes and remains a valuable addendum to the game. We do this in our own time, and with no promise of reward or monetary benefit.
Now, sometimes we do need to enforce the Rules of Conduct and the Terms of Service. We're fine with voicing concerns of the game, we just require you to do so with common decency to others. On the other hand, because of our length of time in the community, and responsibilities, we are in a unique position to ensure the voice of the community is heard (this is the fun part for me). We often pass along constructive criticism, suggestions, exploits to those who need to know. It may surprise some of you newcomers (who've only been around a few months) we are just as critical of the game as some of you.
Yeah, there is no need to "bring awareness" about exploits to anyone but to the developers directly by reporting it through the methods given to you. Those are the folks that can actually do something about it. Unfortunately, by airing them on public forums, you SHARE the exploit, making the problem take much longer to clean up.
Oh like the AH exploits that were fixed ever so promptly to the point of bringing the servers down for a whole day emergency maintenance to fix it many weeks later. Yeah, that system works so well. /sarcasm
Actually the mods in this forum are really accepting and give the community a lot of leeway to express its opinion. They are also volunteers as far as know, which means they care a lot more about the game than most people here, since they are willing to give their time for free. I have strongly disagreed with some of the mods opinions in the past, but they have never silenced my voice because of that.
If you want to see HAMSTER moderation at work, go and play on the GW2 forums, the comment you just made would earn you a perma ban most likely. I assure you the mods here are amazingly open minded and liberal.
Thanks! Yeah it's all in how you word it. Some people just do not know how to have a discussion, or they take advantage of the anonymity of the internet to act like a fool.
We try to be as open minded as possible... and often challenge anyone with criticism to do so with a potential solution. If it's a good one, you can bet one of us is bringing it the attention of Cryptic. In fact, the last big update contained many of these very solutions.
Oh like the AH exploits that were fixed ever so promptly to the point of bringing the servers down for a whole day emergency maintenance to fix it many weeks later. Yeah, that system works so well. /sarcasm
It worked as good as could be expected. The servers were not taken down weeks later, but well within 48 hours of it being reported. I was here that weekend! And I'm telling you, people were spamming info on the exploit as fast as I could remove it. All that did was lengthen the time for Cryptic to clean up. The code fix itself, is the same. Its the cleanup and the followup (cleaning inventories, handing out bans) that takes longer.
Report it right away, and you have done the community a service. Open up on the forums, and you do the opposite.
Have you noticed this comment one page before your rant?
Cryptic knows about it, and is actively working on multiple solutions. This is an industry wide problem. The blame should never lie at the feat of developers, but at the feet of those who cheat.
Yeah Cryptic MAY know about it but that doesn't mean they're actually DOING anything about it. But not surprising when it comes to a company that got bought out by PWE.
Yeah Cryptic MAY know about it but that doesn't mean they're actually DOING anything about it. But not surprising when it comes to a company that got bought out by PWE.
Yes because they arent saying anything must OBVIOUSLY mean they arent doing anything about it.
use the fracking Gear Score ffs !!! under level 60 bots are rarely well geared while people are
put an option box : "report bot" ; then if suspected ask the player a random question about the character like "how many armor pen do you have?" or "2+5?" .....
btw it is NOT difficult as it is stated before ...... or do something else ;p
Seems to be a growing number of these bots at lvl 60 on mindflayer. Mostly TR's that never mount and never roll, and run the same pattern every time they respawn. They are easy to spot on your own team, but because they actually attack and even get kills on occasion you might not notice them as a bot at first on the other team. At first I was trying to be vigilant and report them all, but when you get in a match with 2 of them on your team and 3 on the other team, and the non bot players on the other team all just quit the match, it becomes too depressing to even bother trying to report them all. The guy saying he's seen 10 bots in 100 matches has either been very lucky, or doesn't pay very good attention.
use the fracking Gear Score ffs !!! under level 60 bots are rarely well geared while people are
put an option box : "report bot" ; then if suspected ask the player a random question about the character like "how many armor pen do you have?" or "2+5?" .....
btw it is NOT difficult as it is stated before ... use your mighty brain ... or do something else ;p
No its too difficult for them, they have already said it. Basically they think that they are "smart" enough to develop a bot detection programme. Getting off their HAMSTER and hunt down bots is too much work for them, so they will just make it look very melodramatic, to fool majority of the people that they are working on it, which they have done successfully.
Seems to be a growing number of these bots at lvl 60 on mindflayer. Mostly TR's that never mount and never roll, and run the same pattern every time they respawn. They are easy to spot on your own team, but because they actually attack and even get kills on occasion you might not notice them as a bot at first on the other team. At first I was trying to be vigilant and report them all, but when you get in a match with 2 of them on your team and 3 on the other team, and the non bot players on the other team all just quit the match, it becomes too depressing to even bother trying to report them all. The guy saying he's seen 10 bots in 100 matches has either been very lucky, or doesn't pay very good attention.
I never mount either, mounts are annoying to get and zones are way to small to even consider buying one for real money.
Logically yeah players should hate bots enough to do anything to get rid of them.l..
But as soon as those methods impact player's "freedoms" such as choosing where to sell their product and for how much their attitudes tend to change.
As I said I loved it. The players who stayed loved it...
But it hurt business. And when the company sold large portions of their shares into an investment company who didn't care about the game's quality the first thing they did was let the bots come back and kick the legitimate players out.
They tried something new and I would gladly live under such a system again. It was a crime free game. A Utopia of sorts.
But the majority of gamers won't deal with the system and will instead go elsehwere no different than a subscription cost barrier.
EDIT - As for the PvP Solution *looks around* they reduced the rewards for losing vastly...
And players are crying their eyes out. Heck I'm all for removing rewards for losing PvP matches but with such a system would be the exodus of large portions the legitimate PvP players.
Welcome to the world of development. How do you fight an issue which hurts legitimate players without ticking off the legitimate player base?
Yep, you take away rewards for losing side and the first thing that happens is that (outside of pvp bonus hour) when your team starts to lose, you bail and re-queue for a new battle, which then hurts winning side since rewards go down for them if they just have to ride out clock and get no points for kills and capping.
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bostishMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
Don't bots break on patch day due to the need to identify memory addresses?
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hobokenboyBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
Yep, you take away rewards for losing side and the first thing that happens is that (outside of pvp bonus hour) when your team starts to lose, you bail and re-queue for a new battle, which then hurts winning side since rewards go down for them if they just have to ride out clock and get no points for kills and capping.
Then take away rewards for the entire match. The whole REASON bots are there(or anywhere, for that matter) is to get the most reward for the least amount of effort.
If all you get to do is (as a post earlier in the forum suggests) is gloat and teabag, I can guarantee there'll be no bots. Heck, back when Halo first came out, it's all you got to do, and there was NO SHORTAGE of players for PvP matches. People still cheated, using aimbots and the like, but at least there was a person piloting the thing around.
Then take away rewards for the entire match. The whole REASON bots are there(or anywhere, for that matter) is to get the most reward for the least amount of effort.
If all you get to do is (as a post earlier in the forum suggests) is gloat and teabag, I can guarantee there'll be no bots. Heck, back when Halo first came out, it's all you got to do, and there was NO SHORTAGE of players for PvP matches. People still cheated, using aimbots and the like, but at least there was a person piloting the thing around.
I haven't read any of this thread up until this post, but I find myself considering that this might be the solution. I haven't checked how much honor I have in quite some time since I don't really need anything that honor can buy. I PvP to get the satisfaction of dominating other players or the dismay of being dominated by other players.
I would gladly trade the rewards that one can buy from participating in PvP for an unbroken, fulfilling and strategic PvP experience with no bots and far far less automatic quitters. If there is no "glory" besides the glory won from dominating the opposing team, I think the bots would decrease dramatically...and the people who truly enjoy PvP surely wouldn't complain...
If there was some fix out there they'd of bought into it.
However even if there was some magical person who could solve the problem this falls under the armor versus weapon issue that mankind has been dealing with for a millennium.
A weapon will come out and then the armor smiths devise a way to stop that weapon from being effective. Weaponsmiths will then make a weapon to bypass the kinks in that armor. And the better is never-ending with armor always being one step behind.
It likely started with leather preventing stone tools from penatrating skin and went all the way to Kevlar protecting people from bullets. However as basically everybody this day in age knows there are armor piecing rounds which will circumvent Kevlar. So the fight goes on.
Every additional piece of armor that prevents bots from taking hold in MMO's is circumvented much, much faster than any company can dream of rectifying. Prove me wrong and hire a bunch of people who can fix the problem. However I promise gamers under-estimate the issues which plague the world and the ingenuity of those who wish to circumvent the rules humanity has decided upon.
one game had the same problem 10 years ago....... what they did was introduce a simple strategy.... they post a simple question before each round of pvp and after ressing after each death, thus isolating bots.
one game had the same problem 10 years ago....... what they did was introduce a simple strategy.... they post a simple question before each round of pvp and after ressing after each death, thus isolating bots.
I think you're overestimating the ability of the average PvPer to pass even a modest Turing test.
A leavers penalty (such as not being able to requeue for some time) is used in many mmos and MOBA. It does cut down on leavers. It also sets a standard for the game's culture, it makes it clear that leaving is in bad form and that if you sign up for a game you are expected to play to the end. The inconvenience that may cause at times to an individual is far outweighed by the benefits it provides to the community and the game as a whole.
A moderate leaver penalty would be fine (imo). I was responding to a suggested 1 hour penalty combined with removing all rewards to the losing side. Also want to point out that many of the games that do have leaver penalties still have their share of bots.
A moderate leaver penalty would be fine (imo). I was responding to a suggested 1 hour penalty combined with removing all rewards to the losing side. Also want to point out that many of the games that do have leaver penalties still have their share of bots.
Yeah you are right 1 hour seems a bit harsh, probably just people giving an extreme solution because they are fed up with people leaving for no real reason.
put up a "fight againts bot" can be done many ways, there are easy way to done it, but some of the way to do it is probably changing the game core itself, will they want it to do it or not that the question ...
Comments
Actually, they do.
I have just realized this game is dead. Why do I never listen to what people are saying on forums before I start a new game?
If you google around, and read some of the MMO exploiter and botting forums, PvP is an easy method of AFK levelling. A lot of the better farming exploits need lv 60 chars, so this makes sense.
Admittedly, some of the botters are just people who are sick of levelling yet another alt, but that doesn't make it right, either. Making PvP not give XP, just glory, would at least move the problem around, and reduce its impact on PvP. That's not as big a win as you might imagine, though. While normal Foundry quests are horribly difficult for bots, there are a bunch designed specifically to be easy for them, which is an ominous development. It might well be the Next Big Thing, sadly.
(This makes me a sad kitten, the Foundry is the thing that attracted me to the game, after all. There's some great stuff there. "A Clash Of Wills", anyone?)
It's a knotty problem, and non-trivial to solve, though Crytic are doing a worse job than most. This game is currently a popular "training wheels" game for neophyte bot developers, as well as people making in-process hacks; the barriers to entry need to be a little higher. Even Warframe (which is shockingly buggy) managed their anti-cheating stuff better than this.
A leavers penalty (such as not being able to requeue for some time) is used in many mmos and MOBA. It does cut down on leavers. It also sets a standard for the game's culture, it makes it clear that leaving is in bad form and that if you sign up for a game you are expected to play to the end. The inconvenience that may cause at times to an individual is far outweighed by the benefits it provides to the community and the game as a whole.
I'm surprised they haven't deleted your post, banned you, and/or locked this thread yet. That's usually what the mods do when you prove them wrong and make them look bad on these forums.
Mods deleting proof of invulnerability hacks shows that they and PWE wants to sweep this huge problem under the rug, just like I said before. We're bringing awareness to the exploits, bugs, and hacks in this game, yet they want to hide it from the public and pretend like it's not an issue.
Actually the mods in this forum are really accepting and give the community a lot of leeway to express its opinion. They are also volunteers as far as know, which means they care a lot more about the game than most people here, since they are willing to give their time for free. I have strongly disagreed with some of the mods opinions in the past, but they have never silenced my voice because of that.
If you want to see HAMSTER moderation at work, go and play on the GW2 forums, the comment you just made would earn you a perma ban most likely. I assure you the mods here are amazingly open minded and liberal.
That's just one of the major reasons NOT to discuss, promote, share exploits of any kind on the forums. And it doesn't matter who discussed it first, if you discuss it, link to it, share it, you can and probably will be banned.
This is simply in the best interests for those of us who do care about the game, the community, and the future of the game.
And some guess wrong. A PWE/Cryptic moderator's opinion is always our own, unless we are delivering a specific message from a specific Cryptic employee (we are not employees, we are volunteers). In other words, we are gamers as yourself, who have been chosen to administer the forums, and help ensure it becomes and remains a valuable addendum to the game. We do this in our own time, and with no promise of reward or monetary benefit.
Now, sometimes we do need to enforce the Rules of Conduct and the Terms of Service. We're fine with voicing concerns of the game, we just require you to do so with common decency to others. On the other hand, because of our length of time in the community, and responsibilities, we are in a unique position to ensure the voice of the community is heard (this is the fun part for me). We often pass along constructive criticism, suggestions, exploits to those who need to know. It may surprise some of you newcomers (who've only been around a few months) we are just as critical of the game as some of you.
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Wow, I'm impressed. All of this time and the OP never replied to this thread. Kudos on keeping your promise.
Oh like the AH exploits that were fixed ever so promptly to the point of bringing the servers down for a whole day emergency maintenance to fix it many weeks later. Yeah, that system works so well.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
Thanks! Yeah it's all in how you word it. Some people just do not know how to have a discussion, or they take advantage of the anonymity of the internet to act like a fool.
We try to be as open minded as possible... and often challenge anyone with criticism to do so with a potential solution. If it's a good one, you can bet one of us is bringing it the attention of Cryptic. In fact, the last big update contained many of these very solutions.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
Though still waiting on a response from Ambi to my offer
It worked as good as could be expected. The servers were not taken down weeks later, but well within 48 hours of it being reported. I was here that weekend! And I'm telling you, people were spamming info on the exploit as fast as I could remove it. All that did was lengthen the time for Cryptic to clean up. The code fix itself, is the same. Its the cleanup and the followup (cleaning inventories, handing out bans) that takes longer.
Report it right away, and you have done the community a service. Open up on the forums, and you do the opposite.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
Yeah Cryptic MAY know about it but that doesn't mean they're actually DOING anything about it. But not surprising when it comes to a company that got bought out by PWE.
Yes because they arent saying anything must OBVIOUSLY mean they arent doing anything about it.
put an option box : "report bot" ; then if suspected ask the player a random question about the character like "how many armor pen do you have?" or "2+5?" .....
btw it is NOT difficult as it is stated before ...... or do something else ;p
No its too difficult for them, they have already said it. Basically they think that they are "smart" enough to develop a bot detection programme. Getting off their HAMSTER and hunt down bots is too much work for them, so they will just make it look very melodramatic, to fool majority of the people that they are working on it, which they have done successfully.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Neverwinter Forum Rules of Conduct ~Moderation Team
I never mount either, mounts are annoying to get and zones are way to small to even consider buying one for real money.
Yep, you take away rewards for losing side and the first thing that happens is that (outside of pvp bonus hour) when your team starts to lose, you bail and re-queue for a new battle, which then hurts winning side since rewards go down for them if they just have to ride out clock and get no points for kills and capping.
Then take away rewards for the entire match. The whole REASON bots are there(or anywhere, for that matter) is to get the most reward for the least amount of effort.
If all you get to do is (as a post earlier in the forum suggests) is gloat and teabag, I can guarantee there'll be no bots. Heck, back when Halo first came out, it's all you got to do, and there was NO SHORTAGE of players for PvP matches. People still cheated, using aimbots and the like, but at least there was a person piloting the thing around.
I haven't read any of this thread up until this post, but I find myself considering that this might be the solution. I haven't checked how much honor I have in quite some time since I don't really need anything that honor can buy. I PvP to get the satisfaction of dominating other players or the dismay of being dominated by other players.
I would gladly trade the rewards that one can buy from participating in PvP for an unbroken, fulfilling and strategic PvP experience with no bots and far far less automatic quitters. If there is no "glory" besides the glory won from dominating the opposing team, I think the bots would decrease dramatically...and the people who truly enjoy PvP surely wouldn't complain...
one game had the same problem 10 years ago....... what they did was introduce a simple strategy.... they post a simple question before each round of pvp and after ressing after each death, thus isolating bots.
I think you're overestimating the ability of the average PvPer to pass even a modest Turing test.
A moderate leaver penalty would be fine (imo). I was responding to a suggested 1 hour penalty combined with removing all rewards to the losing side. Also want to point out that many of the games that do have leaver penalties still have their share of bots.
Yeah you are right 1 hour seems a bit harsh, probably just people giving an extreme solution because they are fed up with people leaving for no real reason.
Bots/afkers/leavers, the axis of evil!