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Thx for allowing the bots to ruin PvP
elkysium
Member Posts: 161 Arc User
As the title states, most of us know the bots and the gold farmers and kick them so we can get someone useful. Now we have to put up with them with the no armor, no weapon, no skill and run to a point over and over and over and die over and over and over just so they can get the glory to sell. It's like having a 4vs5, 3vs5 or whatever depending on how many freaking bots are in the group. So thanks again for helping the gold farmers and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> us. Whatever team has the bots now auto loses. Guess that was your plan, well done! Nice thinking things through... Oh wait i forgot we're dealing with cryptic here. Hey this is awesome, lets change it and screw it up! lol
Sorry just freaking agrrivated and tired of cryptics moronic moves...
I won't respond to this either, just putting my 2 cents worth out there...
Sorry just freaking agrrivated and tired of cryptics moronic moves...
I won't respond to this either, just putting my 2 cents worth out there...
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Games have bots, especially new games. It took ArenaNet about 6 months after launching to get rid of their massive bot infestation in Guild Wars 2. Both Neverwinter and GW2 have similar economies that are very attractive to bots so they swarm like moths to a flame. I'm pretty sure they're working on it, trying to figure out exactly how to identify and exterminate them. We have to help them with this by reporting every bot we see so they can be investigated further. We need to do our part as well. Stay vigilant and more importantly, be patient.
won`t get fixed, your best hope is bots are made better maybe.
don`t expect your help from pwe /cryptic
In fact it is so difficult that the entire gaming industry poors millions of dollars a year into bot detection research and the bots always manage to stay one step ahead.
Bots are constantly being dealt with internally and I promise you that once you reach level 60 the bots will all but magically disappear. Bots remain an issue mainly at lower levels and decreasing steadily until you reach level 60.
Despite what tcarnce states things are being done about bots. It's just nowhere near as simple as any gamer believes.
and the problem with losing the ability to kick players out of pvp... this was abused and that is why it is no longer an option.
Yea but try to think of how much man power do you need to catch the bots? Lets say we have a system to report player AFK. Ok. how many before it flag for GM to look at? does it decay? (it should.... *hint hint* *cough* chat ban *cough*) now the GM would have to invisibly port in and observe the bot action take action.
How many PvP session are going at any given time? How many bot you think a single GM can catch and manually ban the user? realistically? I would say probably 2-3 a hour? how many bots in the game? how many GM you need to counter it? how much are you going to pay these gm? (would have to be employee since they have the power to prevent players from playing)
Now on the "flip side" (my personal opinion) the bots DOES help the game/economy in other ways.
Lets say you are a new player with lots of money. You want to get stuff, you can buy all your epic much cheaper by buying Zen and converting them to AD. Yay for Cryptic. The Entry cost is "lowered" for new players which can be a good thing. Win for Cryptic, losing for Players.
Of course there is a balance act of how much player to lose when it start hitting the wallet. Another hard thing to look at is how much money is Cryptic is going to spend on anti-bot software/hiring GM before it becomes cost prohibitive (i.e. losing money more than gaining) that is the curse of any business and F2P.
F2P just means you can get a new account. IP ban is not feasible since many ISP use dynamic IP which can accidentally BAN legit players so only account ban is feasible but you can always create a new account.
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
I have read many reports on how bots can be detected. Metrics is the best way. In game dm/gm are another way. Other games controll the level of bots why cant this game? Another way to controll bots is subscription based games. If you get caught and your paying subscription then you loose the cash for the sub you just lost. A free to play game you loose a free account and just make another one.
Another way to take care of botting. YOu know those questions you need to answer to get forum accounts or other things like that the type what word you see below. Make a system that the player has to sort something out like quick puzzle or something that a bot cant do. And say after doing a few of those each time it doesnt come up everytime it gets less and less. But still has a random spawn. That would work for node farming bots.
However even if there was some magical person who could solve the problem this falls under the armor versus weapon issue that mankind has been dealing with for a millennium.
A weapon will come out and then the armor smiths devise a way to stop that weapon from being effective. Weaponsmiths will then make a weapon to bypass the kinks in that armor. And the better is never-ending with armor always being one step behind.
It likely started with leather preventing stone tools from penatrating skin and went all the way to Kevlar protecting people from bullets. However as basically everybody this day in age knows there are armor piecing rounds which will circumvent Kevlar. So the fight goes on.
Every additional piece of armor that prevents bots from taking hold in MMO's is circumvented much, much faster than any company can dream of rectifying. Prove me wrong and hire a bunch of people who can fix the problem. However I promise gamers under-estimate the issues which plague the world and the ingenuity of those who wish to circumvent the rules humanity has decided upon.
Metrics are used by every game company as main methods of detecting bots. The issue becomes how quickly they can be detected and normally it's long, long after players notice them.
In game bans do happen on basically every MMO. Still there's only so many DM/GM's that you can hire in order to ban before you actually have no money left to make any new content.
Furthermore there's a large margin in error on those reports. What makes a player a bot? Doing similar actions over and over again? What if I just don't care about the PvP match and decide to keep running to mid and fighting just so I am doing something productive. Bans based on behavior and the human eye are always extremely fallable.
Subscriptions are dead. Sorry. Subscriptions are nothing but a wall which prevent players from even trying the game. SWTOR proved this when they stayed firm that they would never go free to play until the players spoke with their wallets and refused to pay the entrance fee.
MMO's live by having a large amount of players and the best way to do this is to not do anything which prevents possible players from playing the game. Within the next decade I believe we'll start seeing younger gamers join in the communities which have never (and will never) pay subscription fees.
Sadly, this is true. Even if a company doesn't budge and insist on Subscription they have HIGH level of competition of similar game that is Free 2 play. There are so many players out there and everyone want THAT player in their pocket. People like me can only afford one or two PAID at any given time (I just don't have the time to play as much)
So you are right that free 2 play is here to stay.
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
So your saying its imposible and we should give up and just except the fact that botting is here to stay. Then why doesnt the devs just remove the pvp system of the game then. Whats the point when 50-70 % of the time your playing against bots. And why not shut down the AH while they are at it. Or do you suggest we all just start botting which is stupid whats the point of playing a MMO like that.
What worries me the most is games becoming the be all end all of humanities issue....
I mean really bots in a game is not that big of a deal.
Frustrating yes possible issues to game economy yes of course.
But really it is easier to circumvent security then it is to find away to stop all intrusions.
Props to the designers for continual work and efforts to improve the gameplay and for
keeping us as informed as they can on those efforts.
That includes raiding/dungeons with advanced AI's. If you can think of it a coder can design it.
I'm saying don't trivialise a matter which costs millions of dollars a year to combat.
There are plenty of simple solutions to fix the issue actually but all of them would have players crying. For instance one other game actually outright prevented trading outside of the game's Auction House. I personally loved this as it made cheating outright impossible (no exageration) but it also cut the player base down drastically. I quit playing the moment the company gave up and allowed a flood of bots worse than I ever saw before back into the game despite the outcry of the honest players.
But bots will honestly never be completely gone. It's not what you want to hear and it's not what any game company (note I am saying this as a player) would say but it's the reality of the situation.
Bots ruin games and every single MMO company basically splits their resources and devotes half the people who should be working on additional content to combating bots instead. I don't have the details on Cryptic but it honestly can't be much different. However these actions tend to be behind the scenes and as such you will never see the fruits of their labor. And unfortunately when you do it's often in a way which will negatively impact the gameplay for all players in order to limit the negative effects of botting.
The reality of bots is that a magical solution to kill all the bots would be great and we all hope for one but in truth the fight against bots is more about improving the speed and accuracy of detection.
It will never pay off for a normal player to bot because they will be detected and banned long before any noticeable payoff as well as losing anythign they validly earned but those who are here to bot are like hydras. They don't care if you ban a single account because they'll make two more in it's wake. Seeing bots doesn't mean they aren't being banned or removed. They simply make more accounts whenever they are banned.
(And contrary to popular believe IP Bans and MMO's don't mix)
It is simple. Add party vote kicking. Yes, it can be abused too, but which is more detrimental to the game?
Then make the players cry. Seriously, you've been in these forums. It is pretty much what goes on anyway. Cryptic should man up and take a stand and do something about it. One of those "simple solutions".
Said it before, will say it again. Take all rewards away from PvP and you'll see no more bots in PvP. That leaves node farming.
Or better yet. Develop a participation scale of rewards. No participation to very little(IE, what a bot normally does) = 0 reward.
Marginal participation, marginal reward.
Full participation, full reward.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
That is one of my suggestion. I actually "stole" it from SWTOR.
Lets say you are base defending, you get certain points defending a base (granted you can bot it but still)
but you also get points in healing and get points in attacking.
So a person attacking and defending a base would get more points and thus get higher reward (glory)
So active player (or super active bot) will get higher glory and player just sitting around a node defending would get less glory.
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
While a vote kick would certainly hinder their profits, it wouldn't be enough. Assuming they were removed from a game by a pro-active team .... they will hop right back into another game. To solve this problem you could simply put a 1-4 hour restriction of queuing for another PvP match after you have been "vote kicked" by your team.
Just my two cents.
Logically yeah players should hate bots enough to do anything to get rid of them.l..
But as soon as those methods impact player's "freedoms" such as choosing where to sell their product and for how much their attitudes tend to change.
As I said I loved it. The players who stayed loved it...
But it hurt business. And when the company sold large portions of their shares into an investment company who didn't care about the game's quality the first thing they did was let the bots come back and kick the legitimate players out.
They tried something new and I would gladly live under such a system again. It was a crime free game. A Utopia of sorts.
But the majority of gamers won't deal with the system and will instead go elsehwere no different than a subscription cost barrier.
EDIT - As for the PvP Solution *looks around* they reduced the rewards for losing vastly...
And players are crying their eyes out. Heck I'm all for removing rewards for losing PvP matches but with such a system would be the exodus of large portions the legitimate PvP players.
Welcome to the world of development. How do you fight an issue which hurts legitimate players without ticking off the legitimate player base?
Escape > Help > Request GM Help > Behavior
It's buried, I give you that, but it's there.
True, someone would eventually come up with some way to circumvent the reward ratio thing...so that would leave my original suggestion.
Why do people bot in the first place? Easy reward with little effort. I am fairly certain....no. I'm 100% certain that if the only reward there was in PvP was "OUR TEAM WON!!", there would be no botting in PvP.
Not even sure why there are the "profession" nodes, either. They're basically useless. Put the things one would find in there on the store(not zen store, ingame vendors!) and just get rid of nodes. BAM. Node farming gone.
Two VERY EASY, LOW COST solutions. Free of charge. You can use them, Cryptic, I won't sue or charge you for the ideas.
Said it in the last post, am reiterating. MAN UP. No more platitudes and excuses. Fix it or forget it. (My personal stance on the subject, not any kind of ultimatum.)
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
The down side of only letting "winning team" win anything is that if a players are put with bots and lose, they will moan of losing and not getting anything.
That is why I suggest the point system, you still win (even REAL players ended up on bot team)
ambisinisterr I suggest that you can we should be able to report for "botting" or "report behavior" via right click and enter the info. Of course this shouldn't stack with chat ban (to prevent abuse) and GM would have to review it and no auto ban. (again to prevent abuse)
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
I believe the best correction that can be made will take a refocusing of opinion on PWE/Cryptic's part. MMO developers, including Cryptic, need to stop rewarding repetitive time sinks. If they did that the bots would be for the most part, impractical. DDO was very good with this until in recent years.
There is another way to end botter coding careers. That is to go after them legally/monetarily. WoW and Evon are two games that have benefited from aggressive campaigns vs. botters, and they win.
And what if I told you the truth, that "professional" farming bots, don't care about getting banned, as they will roll new accounts the next day. In a truly f2p game such as Neverwinter, PWE/Cryptic DOES NOT make more money if they stand pat (only those who make games with a required box price would), it's in their best interest to ACT.
The change needs to come from within. Defensively, change the game mechanics. Offensively, go after the bot creators.
What can we do to help PWE/Cryptic stay ahead of this exploit/bot mess?? REPORT. With as strong a community that Neverwinter has, that refuses to accept or play with cheaters, I believe PWE/Cryptic will prevail.
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You're misunderstanding my solution.
TAKE OUT ALL REWARDS TO PVP. All you get to do is say, "WE WON!". Period. End of sentence. No bots will be found in that environment, guaranteed. There's no reward for them to farm anymore, win OR lose.
And I propose the same solution for "skill nodes". Just get rid of them and sell what drops from them at the in game vendor for gold or copper or silver. Easy-peasy.
And Ambi....I know a lot will be butthurt and rage and threaten to quit. But I feel that you(and by default, Cryptic) would be pleasantly surprised that the number of people leaving will be much smaller than you think. Also, the people that say are the much safer and more stable customer player base you(the broad you) want to stay.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
.................wait.
We actually sort of agree??
.................
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
I agree with this. Or the middle ground approach, to reward winners only (ends the afk game, dead.)
True PvPers stay for the fight. For the acclaim of winning. It should never be for the purse.
It doesnt matter if some leave initially if it also eliminates the bots. Because then, PWE has an interesting new marketing opportunity. Play a game for FUN. Imagine that.
(Actually, the fact they squelched the demand for botters, would win REAL paying customers.)
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No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!