Here is where you're wrong: GPF gives an 8-10% damage increase+ a dot that amounts to 3-4% of your overall damage. Perfect Lightning amounts to over 15% of a GWF's overall damage.
TRs are already very slightly underpowered in PvE. Yes, they are at the highest level of gear/play.
"I dont think ANY boss fight was designed with perfect vorpal in mind.." This statement makes no sense and I won't bother disproving it.
"Since the game was not desgined around perfect vorpal you CAN nerf it.". Perfect Vorpal is equal in dps to other enchants of the same caliber. Why don't we nerf all other enchants? Oh, that's right, they aren't as good in PvP.
Here is where you're wrong: GPF gives an 8-10% damage increase+ a dot that amounts to 3-4% of your overall damage. Perfect Lightning amounts to over 15% of a GWF's overall damage.
TRs are already very slightly underpowered in PvE. Yes, they are at the highest level of gear/play.
"I dont think ANY boss fight was designed with perfect vorpal in mind.." This statement makes no sense and I won't bother disproving it.
"Since the game was not desgined around perfect vorpal you CAN nerf it.". Perfect Vorpal is equal in dps to other enchants of the same caliber. Why don't we nerf all other enchants? Oh, that's right, they aren't as good in PvP.
The new numbers I have seen around GPF are much lower then that AND the defense reduction debuff can be overridden with a CW in the group for PVE play... Which actually happens alot.
I will clarify the vorpal issue... T1 boss fights were designed for players with a gearscore of what? like 6300 or something stupid... They are not goin to have a perfect vorpal. Even T2s and CN the min GS requirement is what... 8300? Thats stupid easy to get as well... players might have normal to greaters here...
If you were to attach a "GS" ranking to a PV enchant its like T4 equiv... So ALL the current content the PV is aobe all the content therefore how is it game breaking to nerf that in PVE?
TR are only underpowered if your looking at the overall damage meters for trash+. If you look at a boss fight with an equally geared TR, they will win in DPS. The ONLY reason GFs can top meters is we can pad our numbers during trash AND during boss fights with AoE that honestly doesnt mean anything in the big picture...
If you dont care about your personal epeen on the damage meters, TRs are not underpowered in 5 mans. They do their job well which is single target DPS.
Perfect Vorpal is greater than all over enchants... its a ridiculous increase in damage... How can you even contest that? Unless you have 1 and dont want it nerfed?
"All enchants have linear gains" This is exactly my point... They shouldnt towards the top tier and if your honest with yourself about it, they did not really balance the top tier enchants. In MOST games when a player is very geared even a 1% damage increase in DPS is a big number... Going from greater vorpal to perfect is what... a (.4*.5 - .4*.37 = over a 5% increase in DPS) and a HUGE increase to burst damage... Yes its very costly but thats the name of the game, otherwise you have PVP like it is now, where people just run around and 1-2 shot eachother....
I love how your trying so hard to defend this when DKCandy said it perfect...
"Perfect Vorpal /w ArP makes 25k+ CRTs possible with single bull charge or lunge"
Im sorry if you can do 25k crits and typical players have around 25k HP... that should tell you something is very very wrong with damage scaling...
You dont see/hear players 1 shotting people at low level pvp so what makes this possible? It ISNT the pure "power/encounter" that is doing it... Its NOT the gear because if you have ZERO enchants that would be a huge anomaly in pvp...
So what is left....
Enchants.....
Which enchants specifically are enabling people to do that?
Tene encahnts AND Vorpal enchants...
So what should be done about that for balance?
First ask if it will break PVE... Greater Tene and Greter-Perf Vorpal are arguably T3-T4 enchants... Current game goes to T2 dungeons so its out classing the current dungeons (aka NOT game breaking)...
So the solution: Nerf the damage of these enchants....
Bro, this started as a tene are OP in PVP and added vorpal as well..
Now your complaining about TRs and damage meters in dungeons....
TOTALLY different issues.
I see the correlation of TRs use vorpal so nerf 1 and you nerf the other, but maybe the balance shouldnt be from the enchant but from balancing other aspects.
TRs barely win in boss DPS? Are you kidding? if you have equally geared ppl I dont know 1 who can out dps a good rogue... That is also irrelevant to this thread... If you want TRs to get a buff, go post in their forums then...
Right now the issue is about tene enchants which are NOT about PVE, its about PVP fixing... Vorpal is BROKEN in pvp... Allows for 1 shots... THAT SHOULD NOT HAPPEN.
TENE allows for 1 shots...
THAT SHOULD NOT HAPPEN!
If you wanna then complain aobut how your dps dropped a little in PVE on the meters and it took you 2 more min to do a delve run... I honestly dont care...
If your a TR and complain about how you cant top the DPS meters... dont care... it means nothing anyways... Those meters are trash and are padded by trash AND all the gobs and gobs of adds during boss fights... But for 1v1 dps, noone will beat a TR and players should NOT be 1 shotting or even 2 shotting others in PVP...
Last ****ing words: It's a conflict between pve and pvp balance. I'm done.
I'm a GF. My dps is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. I oneshot without Tene in PvP and I do <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> dps in PvE.
Yep this is so true.
Anyone can try it - Trade out the Greater Tenes for Rank 7/8 ArPen and your damage will be about the same just with slightly less burst (but more damage over time) unless you're already well capped on ArPen.
I say this all the time and I'll stick with it till Cryptic nerfs enchants. Enchants are your END GAME gear! As new Tier's come out you'll unslot those perfect/T10 enchants and move them from set to set.
That's why me and most of my mates have been working towards Perfect / T10 enchants.
BTW - My GF is gear is cheap and enchants are T5's & Lesser and I still own in PvP / PvE. Just save your 10Mil AD and then make your T10/Perfects.
we've all come to the conclusion that PVP damage scaling is broken because of enchants correct?
I created this thread to discuss Tene which evolved to Vorpal which evolved then to flaming about how Vorpal isnt OP and TRs need a buff, back to enchants being OP... LOL
Overall DK you nailed it... I always tell people enchants ARE the end game gear and its not the actual pieces that matter so much as enchants...
Enchants create a damage scaling issue that is STUPID in PVP. Which bring me back to my point that 1) Tene still needs to be nerfed for burst but buffed for pve damage. and 2) Enchants should NOT have linear scaling but have severly dim returns... Especially on Vorpal/Tene enchants...
OR! Create pvp damage resistance that is build into each character active during PVP matches...
"It's a conflict between pve and pvp balance." is right... and I hope they do something about it...
OR! Create pvp damage resistance that is build into each character active during PVP matches...
"It's a conflict between pve and pvp balance." is right... and I hope they do something about it...
How I remember it in Aion was that there are seperate armor sets for PVP and PVEthat grants the user different things. In neverwinter, there is no such thing. The sets are the same for PVE and PVP. If things have to be changed in a way to balance things, make it that way. Impliment a PVP orientated set that gives PVP damage reduction. That way all the problems with enchants and damage will be not that important since you will have player-based damage reduction. Its not migitation but something that cant be nullified. As of right now, I made my own calculations that a CW with proper build and set can nullify the deffence of a GF. Im not saying how, I am just saying its possible and my build is like that. Without vorpals or tenes, my constant dmg in T2 dungeons is more than top the chart. When I saw a 10mil dmg after a run in pirate kings lair (with a minimum tossing mobs off the edges and equally geared/GS group), I knew I was doing the right thing since before the so called balance patch, I was doing not more than 3-4mil/run. So how is that OP? And just for the record, I have 9.7k GS and I am doing more PVE dps than people with 12-13k GS. How is that possible? Well, its my little secret So I dont see any problem with vorpals and tenes in PVE, but their burst in PVP is too **** much. Vorpal is a chance enchant. I mean, it gives crit severity not crit chance right? 50% so what? If you dont have the luck to land a crit, what it gives? Nothing right? Yes if you land a crit it will hurt alot with the right builds. Way to nerf vorpal? Soft cap at 30% crit chance and hard cap at 38-40%.How to nerf tene? I already proposed a way for it scroll up the pages and you will see.
Have fun guys and dont think everything is OP in this game, its new and need alot of improvements.I may go back to play Aion until this game is fixed.
The current way the system works this idea I dont feel would be very beneficial since players dont want to have 2 sets of gear and have to enchant those separately...
Also, GS means nothing fyi...
The way path of exile handles this for their evolving PVP is give player versus player damage a hidden mitigation... So all damage is reduced by x% BEFORE player calculations take place... This also wouldnt be a BAD way to go, but people have pointed out that unkillable GF/GWFs would just be even more unkillable... So I dont think that is the problem..
I really think looking at low level pvp versus 60 helps shine light on the situation... Low lvl pvp is good (possibly a little too slow) but still really good...
It ALL changes at 60 because of enchants... A 60 with BiS gear and no enchants really wont do all that well.. But a player with enchants and BAD gear will dominate a player with great gear and no enchants...
I really think the best solution is to cut down all enchants by a decent amount and then retool PVE... Either that or Give players more HP/damage resist or something...
Alot of the stuff in the game would be ballanced if the devs could understand how to properly diverce dmg and healing types.
These are the main types of dmg/healing
Direckt Damage(DD)
Damage over time(DoT)
Proc(Proc)
Direckt Heal(DH)
Heal over time(HoT
So, this is how a ballanced dmg/healing should look
DD and DH can proc anything, crit/proc dmg/feats
Dot/HoT, can only activate gear procs/feats on the inital cast not on every tick, however Power/Crit should be calculated on each tick of those hot/dot instead of the initial cast, this will ballance dot/hot much better. Crit that procs something, shouldn't aply to dots.
Procs, dmg proc/healing proc, shouldn't be able to proc anything. Shouldn't be able to crit. And have a base dmg instead of using power as source of dmg.
This way, there cannot be any infinate proc combos. Right now there are a couple.
Comments
TRs are already very slightly underpowered in PvE. Yes, they are at the highest level of gear/play.
"I dont think ANY boss fight was designed with perfect vorpal in mind.." This statement makes no sense and I won't bother disproving it.
"Since the game was not desgined around perfect vorpal you CAN nerf it.". Perfect Vorpal is equal in dps to other enchants of the same caliber. Why don't we nerf all other enchants? Oh, that's right, they aren't as good in PvP.
All enchants have "linear gains".
At 40% crit
12->25 = 5.2% dmg increase -> 37 = 4.8% damage increase -> 50% = 5.2% damage increase
An overall 15.2% damage increase
The new numbers I have seen around GPF are much lower then that AND the defense reduction debuff can be overridden with a CW in the group for PVE play... Which actually happens alot.
I will clarify the vorpal issue... T1 boss fights were designed for players with a gearscore of what? like 6300 or something stupid... They are not goin to have a perfect vorpal. Even T2s and CN the min GS requirement is what... 8300? Thats stupid easy to get as well... players might have normal to greaters here...
If you were to attach a "GS" ranking to a PV enchant its like T4 equiv... So ALL the current content the PV is aobe all the content therefore how is it game breaking to nerf that in PVE?
TR are only underpowered if your looking at the overall damage meters for trash+. If you look at a boss fight with an equally geared TR, they will win in DPS. The ONLY reason GFs can top meters is we can pad our numbers during trash AND during boss fights with AoE that honestly doesnt mean anything in the big picture...
If you dont care about your personal epeen on the damage meters, TRs are not underpowered in 5 mans. They do their job well which is single target DPS.
Perfect Vorpal is greater than all over enchants... its a ridiculous increase in damage... How can you even contest that? Unless you have 1 and dont want it nerfed?
"All enchants have linear gains" This is exactly my point... They shouldnt towards the top tier and if your honest with yourself about it, they did not really balance the top tier enchants. In MOST games when a player is very geared even a 1% damage increase in DPS is a big number... Going from greater vorpal to perfect is what... a (.4*.5 - .4*.37 = over a 5% increase in DPS) and a HUGE increase to burst damage... Yes its very costly but thats the name of the game, otherwise you have PVP like it is now, where people just run around and 1-2 shot eachother....
"Perfect Vorpal /w ArP makes 25k+ CRTs possible with single bull charge or lunge"
Im sorry if you can do 25k crits and typical players have around 25k HP... that should tell you something is very very wrong with damage scaling...
You dont see/hear players 1 shotting people at low level pvp so what makes this possible? It ISNT the pure "power/encounter" that is doing it... Its NOT the gear because if you have ZERO enchants that would be a huge anomaly in pvp...
So what is left....
Enchants.....
Which enchants specifically are enabling people to do that?
Tene encahnts AND Vorpal enchants...
So what should be done about that for balance?
First ask if it will break PVE... Greater Tene and Greter-Perf Vorpal are arguably T3-T4 enchants... Current game goes to T2 dungeons so its out classing the current dungeons (aka NOT game breaking)...
So the solution: Nerf the damage of these enchants....
How?
Well you dont like my ideas so you tell me
GFs do almost as much single target dps as TRs.
Anyways, I'm done. If you wanna be stubborn, go ahead.
Now your complaining about TRs and damage meters in dungeons....
TOTALLY different issues.
I see the correlation of TRs use vorpal so nerf 1 and you nerf the other, but maybe the balance shouldnt be from the enchant but from balancing other aspects.
TRs barely win in boss DPS? Are you kidding? if you have equally geared ppl I dont know 1 who can out dps a good rogue... That is also irrelevant to this thread... If you want TRs to get a buff, go post in their forums then...
Right now the issue is about tene enchants which are NOT about PVE, its about PVP fixing... Vorpal is BROKEN in pvp... Allows for 1 shots... THAT SHOULD NOT HAPPEN.
TENE allows for 1 shots...
THAT SHOULD NOT HAPPEN!
If you wanna then complain aobut how your dps dropped a little in PVE on the meters and it took you 2 more min to do a delve run... I honestly dont care...
If your a TR and complain about how you cant top the DPS meters... dont care... it means nothing anyways... Those meters are trash and are padded by trash AND all the gobs and gobs of adds during boss fights... But for 1v1 dps, noone will beat a TR and players should NOT be 1 shotting or even 2 shotting others in PVP...
I'm a GF. My dps is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. I oneshot without Tene in PvP and I do <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> dps in PvE.
Yep this is so true.
Anyone can try it - Trade out the Greater Tenes for Rank 7/8 ArPen and your damage will be about the same just with slightly less burst (but more damage over time) unless you're already well capped on ArPen.
That's why me and most of my mates have been working towards Perfect / T10 enchants.
BTW - My GF is gear is cheap and enchants are T5's & Lesser and I still own in PvP / PvE. Just save your 10Mil AD and then make your T10/Perfects.
we've all come to the conclusion that PVP damage scaling is broken because of enchants correct?
I created this thread to discuss Tene which evolved to Vorpal which evolved then to flaming about how Vorpal isnt OP and TRs need a buff, back to enchants being OP... LOL
Overall DK you nailed it... I always tell people enchants ARE the end game gear and its not the actual pieces that matter so much as enchants...
Enchants create a damage scaling issue that is STUPID in PVP. Which bring me back to my point that 1) Tene still needs to be nerfed for burst but buffed for pve damage. and 2) Enchants should NOT have linear scaling but have severly dim returns... Especially on Vorpal/Tene enchants...
OR! Create pvp damage resistance that is build into each character active during PVP matches...
"It's a conflict between pve and pvp balance." is right... and I hope they do something about it...
Have fun guys and dont think everything is OP in this game, its new and need alot of improvements.I may go back to play Aion until this game is fixed.
Also, GS means nothing fyi...
The way path of exile handles this for their evolving PVP is give player versus player damage a hidden mitigation... So all damage is reduced by x% BEFORE player calculations take place... This also wouldnt be a BAD way to go, but people have pointed out that unkillable GF/GWFs would just be even more unkillable... So I dont think that is the problem..
I really think looking at low level pvp versus 60 helps shine light on the situation... Low lvl pvp is good (possibly a little too slow) but still really good...
It ALL changes at 60 because of enchants... A 60 with BiS gear and no enchants really wont do all that well.. But a player with enchants and BAD gear will dominate a player with great gear and no enchants...
I really think the best solution is to cut down all enchants by a decent amount and then retool PVE... Either that or Give players more HP/damage resist or something...
These are the main types of dmg/healing
Direckt Damage(DD)
Damage over time(DoT)
Proc(Proc)
Direckt Heal(DH)
Heal over time(HoT
So, this is how a ballanced dmg/healing should look
DD and DH can proc anything, crit/proc dmg/feats
Dot/HoT, can only activate gear procs/feats on the inital cast not on every tick, however Power/Crit should be calculated on each tick of those hot/dot instead of the initial cast, this will ballance dot/hot much better. Crit that procs something, shouldn't aply to dots.
Procs, dmg proc/healing proc, shouldn't be able to proc anything. Shouldn't be able to crit. And have a base dmg instead of using power as source of dmg.
This way, there cannot be any infinate proc combos. Right now there are a couple.