Honestly Sanctum, this is the typical response I see when people using tene builds try to defend tene builds... Vorpal is the same way, there is a reason WoW introduced PVP gear with resilience and it was a HUGE defensive benefit... 50% more crit damage is insane when you think about how much damage that really is...
Back to the point.....
IN ORDER TO BALANCE PVP, TENE NEEDS TO BE SCALED DOWN IN BURST AND DPS INCREASED FOR PVE
It also NEEDS to be stackable because players have ALREADY paid for them and socketed them. The reason this is an issue is you will see a mass exodus of players if you get rid of the value people have invested (time/money/ad) into... You cant make multiple ones worthless because people have spent SO much AD and it will make the enchants worthless... It will ruin the economy and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ALOT of ppl off...
Thanks for the explanation. I'm not sure about your reasoning for not altering items in the game. There might be issues for products bought with real money, like Founder Packs and such...but I'm sure that everything we get is at least working as specified.
And they do have the right to change their product if they feel it improves the quality of the overall game. It might upset some, or even a lot of people, but somehow I think they will be the vocal minority.
I think you make good suggestions regarding Tene's, I hope the dev's will go and take a look at all the enchantments currently used in the game. I read they tweaked the Plaguefire's already. Would be nice to get an idea of what they're thinking of doing, maybe get some kind of feedback going.
50% severity isn't thaaaat much, not to mention the cost of a perfect vorpal. Sure, it's strong in PvP.
Lets do some math here... I can vouch that I have been crit and can crit for say 15k without Vorpal, I think anyone wont contest this fact... Its not uncommon in PVP.
So that puts a 15k crit at a base damage of around 8500 damage... So now lets add a vorpal enchant on that... it brings your damage to: 19,285.... So you gained 4,300 damage from 1 weapon enchant on 1 nice crit...
How much does a 6 GREATER tene enchants do @ 30k HP? 5,400 damage? So with that ONE weapon enchant, you have gotten almsot the same benefit as 5 GREATER tene enchants...
Any people complain about tene enchants..... Not to mention Vorpal has NO CD so the next hit you can turn around and crit for even 9k base with another encounter meaning your Vorpal crit is now around 11,500. YOu just got another THREE greater tene enchants worth back to back.....
But yeah its "not thaaaaaaat much"... I feel ya on the cost, but that big of a difference is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>....
I dont find Vorpal that OP, not at all. To add 50% crit severity is not that much since you have basicly low crit severity on rogues (50% I think), doing 100% crit is not that much (I know rogues have some skills that increase crit severity aswell and I dont mind even being 150% on every crit (since Ive seen in Aion how an assasin (rogue-like) was doing 200-300% crit dmg on every crit it landed but that costed lots of crit chance). The problem is the individual dmg that a spell does compared to the HP and def a char has.The only thing tenes are bad are the constant dmg they put every couple of seconds (on a toon with 30k HP, greated tene = 900 dmg x 7 = 6300 bonus dmg out of nothing that can be triggered with every hit, you do the math from there on).
My solution is easy but if it passes on, its not gonna nerf tenes at all, just the multiple use of them. So here is what I propose:
Leave the dmg intact, let it do 3% of max health you have, BUT if the user have multiple tenes stacked, make only one useful at a time with a certain timer, something like: if (user has X tenebrous enchants) use enchant 1, set timer = 3-4 sec, proc enchant 2, set timer 3-4........ and so on. 900 dmg on every 3-4 seconds is not that much, its like DoT. That way the burst dmg will be gone. Also, this needs to be made not server side, but client side. That way it can be sure that this person is using X number of tenes in his equipment.
^ Not a bad solution but I want to point out rogues base crit severity is 75% (from what I have seen/read) and the issue isnt necessarily crit severity but its very high BASE damage combined with the crit severity... In this case, I did the math above your post...
You said, "tenes are bad are the constant dmg they put every couple of seconds"
Tenes are on a 20 second server side CD so its not every couple seconds... just fYI.
I liked your idea of having only one available at a time, Although I dont think this will really fix the issue much TBQH... Because all that will mean is player stack enough to always have 1 active and proccing which adds aton of dmg...
I think A solution would be: As stated in an above post, a "soft cap" that players will only deal X% of HP in necrotic damage every X seconds... I dont know how hard that would be to do. Or some type of diminishing return or SOMETHING that applies after even1 enchant...
25% dim returns after each tene is applied. This puts 7 greaters at: 10.4% necrotic damage, @30k hp = 3120 damage max.. Most people would probably only socket about 3-4 of them still but even that would be a HUGE reduction in burst damage and make people focus on other enchants too.... And that is greaters... lessers would be almost worthless...
Maybe even smaller dim returns on the weaker enchants.... like 15% on lessers and 20% on regulars or something too...
Also Vorpal needs to be shafted down quite a bit.... Right now each increase is linear up to 50%... What it should be is scaled where the biggest increase is from non-lesser and as you go up, the benefits go down... So is it worth it? Yes to min/max, but is it super OP? No...
This could apply for Tene as well...
1% lesser...
1.5% regular...
1.85% greater or something, but this would hurt PVE too much which is why I proposed dim returns instead...
I never said tone down ALL damage, just tone down the TWO OP sources of damage. Players who dont play tene will not notice a difference except their survivability goes up.
We are getting off point here...
This isnt about ALL the problems currently its about 1... Tene and PVP...
THE ISSUE: They are broken in PVP and weak in PVE
THE SOLUTION:Find a way to effectively NERF the burst capability and buff the DPS. This can be done through:
1) Damage becoming a DoT
2) Decreasing the damage applied to a single target but give it the ability to hit multiple targets.
3) Fix the CD so its NOT serverside
4) Make it so you can only proc 1 at a time
5) Make it so you can only use 1 hit at a time (alternative to above)
6) Put a cap on the % of HP that can be done as damage in a given CD range. Even at 10% (meaning if you stack 4 greaters, it will cap at 10% of HP as damage with all procs). (I like this option)
7) Make Tene damage NOT unmitigated damage (min/max will start going away from tene)
THERE ARE TONS OF OPTIONS!
My reply wasn't in reference to yours, I replied to tekkwinter...
Thanks for the explanation. I'm not sure about your reasoning for not altering items in the game. There might be issues for products bought with real money, like Founder Packs and such...but I'm sure that everything we get is at least working as specified.
And they do have the right to change their product if they feel it improves the quality of the overall game. It might upset some, or even a lot of people, but somehow I think they will be the vocal minority.
I think you make good suggestions regarding Tene's, I hope the dev's will go and take a look at all the enchantments currently used in the game. I read they tweaked the Plaguefire's already. Would be nice to get an idea of what they're thinking of doing, maybe get some kind of feedback going.
Here's the thing: You can nerf something in PvP and buff it in PvE, or manage to keep it the same in PvE. But you can't nerf something that's already subpar in PvE because it's too strong in PvP. What way can you nerf Vorpal without nerfing it's PvE side?
Vorpal doesn't need a nerf. PvP needs a straight damage reduction + DRs on stacking CCs. Lastly, it needs much better hit comfirmation. Teleporting over and over with my threatening rush should'nt happen (or any of the other stupid silly hit comfirm bugs). Vorpal feels so big in PvP because base damage is so high. When you multiply a big base by 50% it feels like a huge deal.
Edit: I was a bit aggressive with the "Are you stupid?" but you can't expect complete PvP balance in a game focused on PvE unless there's separate skillsets/tooltips for both.
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yushirokaneMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Here's the thing: You can nerf something in PvP and buff it in PvE, or manage to keep it the same in PvE. But you can't nerf something that's already subpar in PvE because it's too strong in PvP. What way can you nerf Vorpal without nerfing it's PvE side?
Vorpal doesn't need a nerf. PvP needs a straight damage reduction + DRs on stacking CCs. Lastly, it needs much better hit comfirmation. Teleporting over and over with my threatening rush should'nt happen (or any of the other stupid silly hit comfirm bugs). Vorpal feels so big in PvP because base damage is so high. When you multiply a big base by 50% it feels like a huge deal.
Edit: I was a bit aggressive with the "Are you stupid?" But you can't except complete PvP balance in a game focused on PvE unless there's separate skillsets/tooltips for both.
So a 50% dmg increase is not way too much overpowered compared to the other echants that do about 200 per hit, why ppl will use these then? Because they dont have crit build? So ppl with crit build is in aavantage in this game then thx to an op enchant?
I see it op for pve and for pvp to be honest
And thx for repllied about you "are you stoopid" thing, that was a nice gesture
So a 50% dmg increase is not way too much overpowered compared to the other echants that do about 200 per hit, why ppl will use these then? Because they dont have crit build? So ppl with crit build is in aavantage in this game then thx to an op enchant?
I see it op for pve and for pvp to be honest
And thx for repllied about you "are you stoopid" thing, that was a nice gesture
Because if you do the math you realize that vorpal isn't nearly as amazing as it sounds in PvE. Crit is a very ****ty stat without Vorpal, Vorpal just makes it passable.
For example, on my GF who gets double benefit from power, with 75% crit severity:
24% ArP>1800 Recovery>Maybe 200 crit>Power
That's how ****ty crit is. If you have a 1:1 power ratio, power will become better by 1k ish. In comparison, recovery stays better than power until 3k.
On other classes crit might contribute more to your dps because you have more crit multiplier from feats or w/e, but it's a pretty ****ty stat.
no they aren't the 100 people playing is a user base that draws in even more people to the game and if 1 out of 50 spend money upon the game then that 1 person spending $100 to be OP is killing not only the game but profits as well.
Depends. People are attracted to F2P games because they are...free. This attracts 3 people:
1. People who pay nothing, and just want to play since the game is free.
2. People who will pay a little, maybe just around what they would pay for a normal mmo.
3. People who pay inordinate amounts of money to gain an advantage.
For player 3, let's just consider for a second that a Greater Tenebrous is selling for 1.2 mill on the AH. In zen dollars with the exchange at 362, this is 35 USD per enchantment, and yes, people are paying this kind of money. Nerfing may dissuade player #3 from making further purchases, and PwE knows this. Heck, i'm betting they counted on this before they released the game, there's no other reason for the advantages enchantments give(nor the cost).
Personally I like gear progression as it gives you a secondary reason to PvP and PvE. If people want the same gear, you can always go to GW2, but no ones playing that these days.
Also, I get your point, and mean no offense. I just feel like PwE has already shown they're willing to allow a large gear differential if you spend a lot of money, and I doubt they'll change their model. To do so would basically be a middle finger to those who did spend a lot of $$$ on their product, and I don't think they want to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> those users off.
Vorpal is INSANELY OP as well and needs to be nerfed too, but since I have no personal experience with it, I cant comment much..
Anyone else catch this gem? I literally stopped reading at that moment. Vorpal was bugged for an extended amount of time. Ive been using it exclusively, and Ive thought about replacing it multiple times if it werent for the AD cost of removing and buying new weapon enchants.
If you dont have experience with it, I think its safe to say you are not qualified to say its OP.
Depends. People are attracted to F2P games because they are...free. This attracts 3 people:
1. People who pay nothing, and just want to play since the game is free.
2. People who will pay a little, maybe just around what they would pay for a normal mmo.
3. People who pay inordinate amounts of money to gain an advantage.
For player 3, let's just consider for a second that a Greater Tenebrous is selling for 1.2 mill on the AH. In zen dollars with the exchange at 362, this is 35 USD per enchantment, and yes, people are paying this kind of money. Nerfing may dissuade player #3 from making further purchases, and PwE knows this. Heck, i'm betting they counted on this before they released the game, there's no other reason for the advantages enchantments give(nor the cost).
Personally I like gear progression as it gives you a secondary reason to PvP and PvE. If people want the same gear, you can always go to GW2, but no ones playing that these days.
Also, I get your point, and mean no offense. I just feel like PwE has already shown they're willing to allow a large gear differential if you spend a lot of money, and I doubt they'll change their model. To do so would basically be a middle finger to those who did spend a lot of $$$ on their product, and I don't think they want to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> those users off.
I wonder if their poor balancing is to drive people to reroll to be the new faceroller class. Pay and pay again. More like exploit and exploit again.
Because if you do the math you realize that vorpal isn't nearly as amazing as it sounds in PvE. Crit is a very ****ty stat without Vorpal, Vorpal just makes it passable.
For example, on my GF who gets double benefit from power, with 75% crit severity:
24% ArP>1800 Recovery>Maybe 200 crit>Power
That's how ****ty crit is. If you have a 1:1 power ratio, power will become better by 1k ish. In comparison, recovery stays better than power until 3k.
On other classes crit might contribute more to your dps because you have more crit multiplier from feats or w/e, but it's a pretty ****ty stat.
Yes, crit chance isn't that strong on a base GF. They don't have severity increase or AoE heals dispersing from target added to their crits coming from feats. Still, the discussion you were having was about how much more benefit you get from vorpal compared to other enchants?
Also, consider other classes tend to have much higher crit chances than GFs. Rogues, for instance, typically roll over 45%.
I wonder if their poor balancing is to drive people to reroll to be the new faceroller class. Pay and pay again. More like exploit and exploit again.
But seeing complaints from plenty of people with spider mounts in game would indicate they are ALSO driving their high paying populace aways. It might be mostly the people that exploit hard that enjoy this.
So a 50% dmg increase is not way too much overpowered compared to the other echants that do about 200 per hit, why ppl will use these then? Because they dont have crit build? So ppl with crit build is in aavantage in this game then thx to an op enchant?
I see it op for pve and for pvp to be honest
And thx for repllied about you "are you stoopid" thing, that was a nice gesture
It's a 50% damage increase ON CRITS. That's nowhere near the same as a 50% damage increase. In fact, it's exactly: .3*.5 = .15; a 15% damage increase if you have 30% crit (CW, GWF values). Equivalent to a GPF. On a GF (roughly 20% crit) it's a 10% damage increase.
With 45% crit, like you mentioned rogues have, it's a 22.5% damage increase. It's big, but it's not as big as you make it out to be. Not to mention, for the cost of a Perfect Vorpal you can upgrade your enchants by so much.
It's a 50% damage increase ON CRITS. That's nowhere near the same as a 50% damage increase. In fact, it's exactly: .3*.5 = .15; a 15% damage increase if you have 30% crit (CW, GWF values). Equivalent to a GPF. On a GF (roughly 20% crit) it's a 10% damage increase.
With 45% crit, like you mentioned rogues have, it's a 22.5% damage increase. It's big, but it's not as big as you make it out to be. Not to mention, for the cost of a Perfect Vorpal you can upgrade your enchants by so much.
I'm sure there are a few TR's who, if they publish their logs, will show you rates of at least 75% crit chance. My TR is in pvp clothing and has some arp and rec runes, but crit chance is already around 50%. That's at least one crit in every three attacks, and TR's can spam attacks real fast.
Now this is definitely not a nerf-rouge call, but crits happen harder and faster than you might believe.
I'm sure there are a few TR's who, if they publish their logs, will show you rates of at least 75% crit chance. My TR is in pvp clothing and has some arp and rec runes, but crit chance is already around 50%. That's at least one crit in every three attacks, and TR's can spam attacks real fast.
Now this is definitely not a nerf-rouge call, but crits happen harder and faster than you might believe.
You do know ArP, crit and recovery have diminishing returns. Max a rouge will ever have (without being extremely wasteful) is 55%.
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yushirokaneMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It's a 50% damage increase ON CRITS. That's nowhere near the same as a 50% damage increase. In fact, it's exactly: .3*.5 = .15; a 15% damage increase if you have 30% crit (CW, GWF values). Equivalent to a GPF. On a GF (roughly 20% crit) it's a 10% damage increase.
With 45% crit, like you mentioned rogues have, it's a 22.5% damage increase. It's big, but it's not as big as you make it out to be. Not to mention, for the cost of a Perfect Vorpal you can upgrade your enchants by so much.
Lesser: 64k*4 + 133k = 389k*4 + 133k = 1.689M for a Greater Plague Fire
mmm the rogues i play with have about 42-45% crit, so it will be more like a 15% more damage from an enchant
Now compare the 200 dmg of the other enchants to a 15% total damage of an skill, man you cant be right here sorry
Oh and about the cost, its just because the enchant is op, it hapens whith every thing that is op, it increases cost too fast.
mmm the rogues i play with have about 42-45% crit, so it will be more like a 15% more damage from an enchant
Now compare the 200 dmg of the other enchants to a 15% total damage of an skill, man you cant be right here sorry
Oh and about the cost, its just because the enchant is op, it hapens whith every thing that is op, it increases cost too fast.
Listen. TR is the ONLY class where Vorpal is the best enchantment. Even then, you could upgrade your other enchants and prob get the same damage increase until you hit maybe rank 9-10 enchants. That's how expensive Perfect Vorpal is.
Listen. TR is the ONLY class where Vorpal is the best enchantment. Even then, you could upgrade your other enchants and prob get the same damage increase until you hit maybe rank 9-10 enchants. That's how expensive Perfect Vorpal is.
A Perfect Lightning enchantment gives more than 15% damage to a GWF, closer to 20%.
Actually, Vorpal has been dropping in price since forever, while GPF stays steady.
My god, none of your statements are right, you really have no clue, do you? ...
None worth answering all of this, any decent player will see the flaw of your numbers and logic, you probably spent a lot in vorpals and you are just defending your waste, ok fine with me.
How are you quantifying for GPF's damage increase? Wouldn't the value of GPF's stackable(3x) debuff depend on the amount of defense the target has, how it interacts with other defense reductions, and the effectiveness would vary depending on how many times you hit them targets since it has to be stacked. For example, how does it work along with GWF's tier 1 sentinel feat that does the same thing on crits?
How are you quantifying for GPF's damage increase? Wouldn't the value of GPF's stackable(3x) debuff depend on the amount of defense the target has, how it interacts with other defense reductions, and the effectiveness would vary depending on how many times you hit them targets since it has to be stacked. For example, how does it work along with GWF's tier 1 sentinel feat that does the same thing on crits?
I parsed my dps and GPF was 3-4% of my dmg.
GPF is weird as ****, it doesn't seem to change much, if anything, on different DR% values.
Defense Reduction/DR Reduction stack additively.
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yushirokaneMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Listen. TR is the ONLY class where Vorpal is the best enchantment. Even then, you could upgrade your other enchants and prob get the same damage increase until you hit maybe rank 9-10 enchants. That's how expensive Perfect Vorpal is.
A Perfect Lightning enchantment gives more than 15% damage to a GWF, closer to 20%.
Actually, Vorpal has been dropping in price since forever, while GPF stays steady.
Just saw your reply complaining about gf vs tr in pvp, that means a lot to me, you are one of those rogues that are not able to avoid the gf start rotation sigh... Do you think vorpal is the solution? XD No clue at all.....
My god, none of your statements are right, you really have no clue, do you? ...
None worth answering all of this, any decent player will see the flaw of your numbers and logic, you probably spent a lot in vorpals and you are just defending your waste, ok fine with me.
Actually, no, I didn't spend anything on a Vorpal. What mathematical flaws? You can't quantify Perfect lightning or GPF dot damage unless you parse your dps, which I did.
How is my math on Vorpal incorrect? Greater -> Perfect = over 10M. For 10M you could upgrade your other enchants by 1-2 ranks.
Just saw your reply complaining about gf vs tr in pvp, that means a lot to me, you are one of those rogues that are not able to avoid the gf start rotation sigh... Do you think vorpal is the solution? XD No clue at all.....
I'M A ****ING GF. I STATED THAT GF IS OP IN PVP AND PVE. Jesus, you are ****ing dumb. The way a GF beats a TR in PvP is by outlasting the CC immunity and then oneshotting him. Every other class gets one shot, except GWFs, who also have CC immunity.
I average 60k DPS in CN and peak 200k. On single target, TOP GEARED TRs, who outdps every other TR I've seen, don't outdps me by much.
Part of your problem is that your looking at it from a DPS perspective... So when you look at the math of "With 45% crit, like you mentioned rogues have, it's a 22.5% damage increase. It's big, but it's not as big as you make it out to be. " It doesnt seem as vastly OP as it is...
Also, I would liek to point out a 20%+ damage increase off 1 enchant is kinda <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>... Just saying... NO other enchant out there is that strong, or even CLOSE to that strong.
The BIGGEST thing that makes it broken is in PVP as I demonstrated earlier... Its not the flat DPS that matters but the insanely HUGE numbers that matter...
THAT is why Tene is OP, the DPS really sucks... but the BURST is insane....
To give you perspective lets look at what you said....
"I average 60k DPS in CN and peak 200k" - GREAT! You have leet pwnzor deeps... but lets think about a FULL GREATER tene set up...
You have lets say 31k HP (around what I have) and 6 greater tenes... They have a 20 sec server side CD...
31k * .03 * 6 = 5580 damage over 20 seconds = 279 DPS... What % is that of you 60k? .465%....
ILL say it again just because I dont want people to miss this... a FULL GREATER TENE SET UP IS CONTRIBUTING TO A .465% INCREASE IN DPS...
Now compare that to Perfect Vorpal which is 20%?! Hmmm... Last I checked 20% > .465%
Yet what are ppl complaining about? TENE.... WHY? BURST DPS....
Not only is Vorpal INSANELY OP for pure damage.... Its ALSO INSANELY OP for PVP, because BURST is everything... So while the DPS on TENE sucks, the BURST capability is HUGE! Thats why its huge....
Someone parsed a pvp match recently and found that Tene = about 25% of their total damage delt in a PVP match... that is just dumb... Its NOT because the DPS is pro, its because of the burst... If they could parse out a perfect Vorpal I think it would be even bigger....
Ignore every comment about dps, it was not directed at you. It was directed at the idiot trying to claim my dps sucked.
I have always said Tenebrous are insane in PvP and extremely bad in PvE. Now, Perfect Vorpal IS NOT OP in PvE by any means. You need to be a rogue with 50% crit to start considering it too strong. Not to mention, a Perfect Vorpal costs a whooping 16M+ AD. For that cost you could get the same dps increase on your other enchants. In PvP, it's only a crazy enchant because PvP is all about burst. However, you can't nerf Vorpal simply because it's too strong in PvP.
You suggested a nerf to Tene that would make it weaker in PvP and stronger in PvE and that's fine. You can't do that with Vorpal. Since Vorpal just provides a stat (like a power enchant or a recovery enchant, etc), the only way to nerf it would be to nerf how much of the stat it provides. However, this would also be a nerf to Vorpal in PvE.
To fix PvP, and indirectly nerf Vorpal in PvP, the devs have to place a DR% increase on everyone in PvP matches so PvP becomes less about pure burst (a healing nerf would need to be put in place too, to counteract the damage decrease). Then, they need to introduce diminishing returns on CCs so that one can't simply stack CC on CC forever. Lastly, they need to fix PvP's clunky feel (dodges, dashes, etc).
My posts were merely discussing how you can't nerf something that is too strong in PvP if it will affect it's PvE balance in a PvE-focused game (If it's too strong in both departments, then yes, you can nerf it). With Vorpal there's no way to nerf it's PvP balance without nerfing it's PvE balance too.
I wont quote to create an even bigger wall of words... I can make my own:)
I agree you cant balance PVP to then break PVE, but I disagree with your premise that this game was "balanced" around PVE in the first place. I dont think ANY boss fight was designed with perfect vorpal in mind.. They probably balanced enchants around the lesser version and maybe normals but greaters+ seem to be all out of whack at how they scale... Greater tene is a great example, vorpal is too...
Since the game was not desgined around perfect vorpal you CAN nerf it... Plus like you said its a 20% OR GREATER dps boost... off 1 enchant... NO OTHER ENCHANT is that powerful, GPF was close and that got nerfed for being too strong. The reason it got noticed was because of PVP and they toned it down.
You cant create put linear gains on godly enchants... its the same reason you have dim returns on things like defense and deflection... Because if it was linear it would be FAR to OP...
I get the fact its costs a butt load of AD and thus it should be BiS and very powerful, thats not the issue here... I have pointed out before that people who complain about greater tene need to also realize that they cost about 1mil+ each... so at 6 youve spent 6 mil on just a few enchants... A person who only has 200k-1mil in gear wont even come close to competing and that is fine...
10mil+ for Vorpal, yes it SHOULD be strong... But its TOO strong right now...
I have suggest a less linear gain for lesser to greaters.. lesser = 12% (thats not bad at all...) Normal = 25% thats a 100% boost in damage over lesser, its still not THAT OP... Greater is around 37% (Starting to get OP) and Perfect is 50%?! Thats insane...
What they NEED to do is tone it back to 12% - 18% - 22.5% - 28%.
Do the math on this... @50% crit that = 14% flat damage boost for perfect... thats still VERY VERY good for 1 weapon enchant. plague fire is around 4-5% for greater (dont know if it goes perfect?) That also reduces the PVP OP...
Also I have also suggested that BASE crit severity be knocked down FROM 75% to 50%... This will take a vorpal rogue from +125% TO about 78% (not including builds)... Thats still very strong... They will STILL get very very nice crits (15k range) but you will see much much less 20k+ crits... which is PART of the PVP problem...
They WILL need to tune damage in PVE a little to adjust this, but its not hard just reducing all NPC HP by say 5-8% to comp for this loss of overall dps. Itll affect rogues the most (highest crit) but their overall damage wont be affected THAT much but it will VASTLY help PVP...
I think this SMALL tweak will go a LONG way to balance the game....
Comments
still beats losing a limb when being hit
Honestly Sanctum, this is the typical response I see when people using tene builds try to defend tene builds... Vorpal is the same way, there is a reason WoW introduced PVP gear with resilience and it was a HUGE defensive benefit... 50% more crit damage is insane when you think about how much damage that really is...
Back to the point.....
IN ORDER TO BALANCE PVP, TENE NEEDS TO BE SCALED DOWN IN BURST AND DPS INCREASED FOR PVE
Thanks for the explanation. I'm not sure about your reasoning for not altering items in the game. There might be issues for products bought with real money, like Founder Packs and such...but I'm sure that everything we get is at least working as specified.
And they do have the right to change their product if they feel it improves the quality of the overall game. It might upset some, or even a lot of people, but somehow I think they will be the vocal minority.
I think you make good suggestions regarding Tene's, I hope the dev's will go and take a look at all the enchantments currently used in the game. I read they tweaked the Plaguefire's already. Would be nice to get an idea of what they're thinking of doing, maybe get some kind of feedback going.
Lets do some math here... I can vouch that I have been crit and can crit for say 15k without Vorpal, I think anyone wont contest this fact... Its not uncommon in PVP.
So that puts a 15k crit at a base damage of around 8500 damage... So now lets add a vorpal enchant on that... it brings your damage to: 19,285.... So you gained 4,300 damage from 1 weapon enchant on 1 nice crit...
How much does a 6 GREATER tene enchants do @ 30k HP? 5,400 damage? So with that ONE weapon enchant, you have gotten almsot the same benefit as 5 GREATER tene enchants...
Any people complain about tene enchants..... Not to mention Vorpal has NO CD so the next hit you can turn around and crit for even 9k base with another encounter meaning your Vorpal crit is now around 11,500. YOu just got another THREE greater tene enchants worth back to back.....
But yeah its "not thaaaaaaat much"... I feel ya on the cost, but that big of a difference is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>....
My solution is easy but if it passes on, its not gonna nerf tenes at all, just the multiple use of them. So here is what I propose:
Leave the dmg intact, let it do 3% of max health you have, BUT if the user have multiple tenes stacked, make only one useful at a time with a certain timer, something like: if (user has X tenebrous enchants) use enchant 1, set timer = 3-4 sec, proc enchant 2, set timer 3-4........ and so on. 900 dmg on every 3-4 seconds is not that much, its like DoT. That way the burst dmg will be gone. Also, this needs to be made not server side, but client side. That way it can be sure that this person is using X number of tenes in his equipment.
Enjoy my solution.
You said, "tenes are bad are the constant dmg they put every couple of seconds"
Tenes are on a 20 second server side CD so its not every couple seconds... just fYI.
I liked your idea of having only one available at a time, Although I dont think this will really fix the issue much TBQH... Because all that will mean is player stack enough to always have 1 active and proccing which adds aton of dmg...
I think A solution would be: As stated in an above post, a "soft cap" that players will only deal X% of HP in necrotic damage every X seconds... I dont know how hard that would be to do. Or some type of diminishing return or SOMETHING that applies after even1 enchant...
1st greater = 3%
2nd greater = 2.25%
3rd greater = 1.687%
4th greater = 1.265%
5th = .9487
6th = .711
7th = .533
25% dim returns after each tene is applied. This puts 7 greaters at: 10.4% necrotic damage, @30k hp = 3120 damage max.. Most people would probably only socket about 3-4 of them still but even that would be a HUGE reduction in burst damage and make people focus on other enchants too.... And that is greaters... lessers would be almost worthless...
Maybe even smaller dim returns on the weaker enchants.... like 15% on lessers and 20% on regulars or something too...
Also Vorpal needs to be shafted down quite a bit.... Right now each increase is linear up to 50%... What it should be is scaled where the biggest increase is from non-lesser and as you go up, the benefits go down... So is it worth it? Yes to min/max, but is it super OP? No...
This could apply for Tene as well...
1% lesser...
1.5% regular...
1.85% greater or something, but this would hurt PVE too much which is why I proposed dim returns instead...
My reply wasn't in reference to yours, I replied to tekkwinter...
Its the only reason some people complain about tankbuilds in pvp.
Vorpal enchant needs a nerf to.
Here's the thing: You can nerf something in PvP and buff it in PvE, or manage to keep it the same in PvE. But you can't nerf something that's already subpar in PvE because it's too strong in PvP. What way can you nerf Vorpal without nerfing it's PvE side?
Vorpal doesn't need a nerf. PvP needs a straight damage reduction + DRs on stacking CCs. Lastly, it needs much better hit comfirmation. Teleporting over and over with my threatening rush should'nt happen (or any of the other stupid silly hit comfirm bugs). Vorpal feels so big in PvP because base damage is so high. When you multiply a big base by 50% it feels like a huge deal.
Edit: I was a bit aggressive with the "Are you stupid?" but you can't expect complete PvP balance in a game focused on PvE unless there's separate skillsets/tooltips for both.
So a 50% dmg increase is not way too much overpowered compared to the other echants that do about 200 per hit, why ppl will use these then? Because they dont have crit build? So ppl with crit build is in aavantage in this game then thx to an op enchant?
I see it op for pve and for pvp to be honest
And thx for repllied about you "are you stoopid" thing, that was a nice gesture
Because if you do the math you realize that vorpal isn't nearly as amazing as it sounds in PvE. Crit is a very ****ty stat without Vorpal, Vorpal just makes it passable.
For example, on my GF who gets double benefit from power, with 75% crit severity:
24% ArP>1800 Recovery>Maybe 200 crit>Power
That's how ****ty crit is. If you have a 1:1 power ratio, power will become better by 1k ish. In comparison, recovery stays better than power until 3k.
On other classes crit might contribute more to your dps because you have more crit multiplier from feats or w/e, but it's a pretty ****ty stat.
Depends. People are attracted to F2P games because they are...free. This attracts 3 people:
1. People who pay nothing, and just want to play since the game is free.
2. People who will pay a little, maybe just around what they would pay for a normal mmo.
3. People who pay inordinate amounts of money to gain an advantage.
For player 3, let's just consider for a second that a Greater Tenebrous is selling for 1.2 mill on the AH. In zen dollars with the exchange at 362, this is 35 USD per enchantment, and yes, people are paying this kind of money. Nerfing may dissuade player #3 from making further purchases, and PwE knows this. Heck, i'm betting they counted on this before they released the game, there's no other reason for the advantages enchantments give(nor the cost).
Personally I like gear progression as it gives you a secondary reason to PvP and PvE. If people want the same gear, you can always go to GW2, but no ones playing that these days.
Also, I get your point, and mean no offense. I just feel like PwE has already shown they're willing to allow a large gear differential if you spend a lot of money, and I doubt they'll change their model. To do so would basically be a middle finger to those who did spend a lot of $$$ on their product, and I don't think they want to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> those users off.
60 GF(14.5GS) Cersei
60 CW(12.4GS) Shadis
60 TR(12.2GS) Dijkstra
60 GWF(12.2GS) Winnowill
45 DC(WIP) Daenerys
Anyone else catch this gem? I literally stopped reading at that moment. Vorpal was bugged for an extended amount of time. Ive been using it exclusively, and Ive thought about replacing it multiple times if it werent for the AD cost of removing and buying new weapon enchants.
If you dont have experience with it, I think its safe to say you are not qualified to say its OP.
I wonder if their poor balancing is to drive people to reroll to be the new faceroller class. Pay and pay again. More like exploit and exploit again.
Yes, crit chance isn't that strong on a base GF. They don't have severity increase or AoE heals dispersing from target added to their crits coming from feats. Still, the discussion you were having was about how much more benefit you get from vorpal compared to other enchants?
Also, consider other classes tend to have much higher crit chances than GFs. Rogues, for instance, typically roll over 45%.
But seeing complaints from plenty of people with spider mounts in game would indicate they are ALSO driving their high paying populace aways. It might be mostly the people that exploit hard that enjoy this.
It's a 50% damage increase ON CRITS. That's nowhere near the same as a 50% damage increase. In fact, it's exactly: .3*.5 = .15; a 15% damage increase if you have 30% crit (CW, GWF values). Equivalent to a GPF. On a GF (roughly 20% crit) it's a 10% damage increase.
With 45% crit, like you mentioned rogues have, it's a 22.5% damage increase. It's big, but it's not as big as you make it out to be. Not to mention, for the cost of a Perfect Vorpal you can upgrade your enchants by so much.
Perfect Vorpal cost:
Shards: 18k*4 + 133k (ward) = 205k for 1 Lesser. 205k * 4 + 133k = 953k*4 + 133k = 3.945M*4 + 133k = 15.913M for a Perfect Vorpal (cheapest possible)
GPF cost:
Lesser: 64k*4 + 133k = 389k*4 + 133k = 1.689M for a Greater Plague Fire
I'm sure there are a few TR's who, if they publish their logs, will show you rates of at least 75% crit chance. My TR is in pvp clothing and has some arp and rec runes, but crit chance is already around 50%. That's at least one crit in every three attacks, and TR's can spam attacks real fast.
Now this is definitely not a nerf-rouge call, but crits happen harder and faster than you might believe.
You do know ArP, crit and recovery have diminishing returns. Max a rouge will ever have (without being extremely wasteful) is 55%.
mmm the rogues i play with have about 42-45% crit, so it will be more like a 15% more damage from an enchant
Now compare the 200 dmg of the other enchants to a 15% total damage of an skill, man you cant be right here sorry
Oh and about the cost, its just because the enchant is op, it hapens whith every thing that is op, it increases cost too fast.
Listen. TR is the ONLY class where Vorpal is the best enchantment. Even then, you could upgrade your other enchants and prob get the same damage increase until you hit maybe rank 9-10 enchants. That's how expensive Perfect Vorpal is.
Also, GPF gives 9% damage to skills + 3-4% damage dot.
A Perfect Lightning enchantment gives more than 15% damage to a GWF, closer to 20%.
Actually, Vorpal has been dropping in price since forever, while GPF stays steady.
My god, none of your statements are right, you really have no clue, do you? ...
None worth answering all of this, any decent player will see the flaw of your numbers and logic, you probably spent a lot in vorpals and you are just defending your waste, ok fine with me.
How are you quantifying for GPF's damage increase? Wouldn't the value of GPF's stackable(3x) debuff depend on the amount of defense the target has, how it interacts with other defense reductions, and the effectiveness would vary depending on how many times you hit them targets since it has to be stacked. For example, how does it work along with GWF's tier 1 sentinel feat that does the same thing on crits?
I parsed my dps and GPF was 3-4% of my dmg.
GPF is weird as ****, it doesn't seem to change much, if anything, on different DR% values.
Defense Reduction/DR Reduction stack additively.
Just saw your reply complaining about gf vs tr in pvp, that means a lot to me, you are one of those rogues that are not able to avoid the gf start rotation sigh... Do you think vorpal is the solution? XD No clue at all.....
Actually, no, I didn't spend anything on a Vorpal. What mathematical flaws? You can't quantify Perfect lightning or GPF dot damage unless you parse your dps, which I did.
How is my math on Vorpal incorrect? Greater -> Perfect = over 10M. For 10M you could upgrade your other enchants by 1-2 ranks.
I'M A ****ING GF. I STATED THAT GF IS OP IN PVP AND PVE. Jesus, you are ****ing dumb. The way a GF beats a TR in PvP is by outlasting the CC immunity and then oneshotting him. Every other class gets one shot, except GWFs, who also have CC immunity.
I average 60k DPS in CN and peak 200k. On single target, TOP GEARED TRs, who outdps every other TR I've seen, don't outdps me by much.
Part of your problem is that your looking at it from a DPS perspective... So when you look at the math of "With 45% crit, like you mentioned rogues have, it's a 22.5% damage increase. It's big, but it's not as big as you make it out to be. " It doesnt seem as vastly OP as it is...
Also, I would liek to point out a 20%+ damage increase off 1 enchant is kinda <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>... Just saying... NO other enchant out there is that strong, or even CLOSE to that strong.
The BIGGEST thing that makes it broken is in PVP as I demonstrated earlier... Its not the flat DPS that matters but the insanely HUGE numbers that matter...
THAT is why Tene is OP, the DPS really sucks... but the BURST is insane....
To give you perspective lets look at what you said....
"I average 60k DPS in CN and peak 200k" - GREAT! You have leet pwnzor deeps... but lets think about a FULL GREATER tene set up...
You have lets say 31k HP (around what I have) and 6 greater tenes... They have a 20 sec server side CD...
31k * .03 * 6 = 5580 damage over 20 seconds = 279 DPS... What % is that of you 60k? .465%....
ILL say it again just because I dont want people to miss this... a FULL GREATER TENE SET UP IS CONTRIBUTING TO A .465% INCREASE IN DPS...
Now compare that to Perfect Vorpal which is 20%?! Hmmm... Last I checked 20% > .465%
Yet what are ppl complaining about? TENE.... WHY? BURST DPS....
Not only is Vorpal INSANELY OP for pure damage.... Its ALSO INSANELY OP for PVP, because BURST is everything... So while the DPS on TENE sucks, the BURST capability is HUGE! Thats why its huge....
Someone parsed a pvp match recently and found that Tene = about 25% of their total damage delt in a PVP match... that is just dumb... Its NOT because the DPS is pro, its because of the burst... If they could parse out a perfect Vorpal I think it would be even bigger....
I have always said Tenebrous are insane in PvP and extremely bad in PvE. Now, Perfect Vorpal IS NOT OP in PvE by any means. You need to be a rogue with 50% crit to start considering it too strong. Not to mention, a Perfect Vorpal costs a whooping 16M+ AD. For that cost you could get the same dps increase on your other enchants. In PvP, it's only a crazy enchant because PvP is all about burst. However, you can't nerf Vorpal simply because it's too strong in PvP.
You suggested a nerf to Tene that would make it weaker in PvP and stronger in PvE and that's fine. You can't do that with Vorpal. Since Vorpal just provides a stat (like a power enchant or a recovery enchant, etc), the only way to nerf it would be to nerf how much of the stat it provides. However, this would also be a nerf to Vorpal in PvE.
To fix PvP, and indirectly nerf Vorpal in PvP, the devs have to place a DR% increase on everyone in PvP matches so PvP becomes less about pure burst (a healing nerf would need to be put in place too, to counteract the damage decrease). Then, they need to introduce diminishing returns on CCs so that one can't simply stack CC on CC forever. Lastly, they need to fix PvP's clunky feel (dodges, dashes, etc).
My posts were merely discussing how you can't nerf something that is too strong in PvP if it will affect it's PvE balance in a PvE-focused game (If it's too strong in both departments, then yes, you can nerf it). With Vorpal there's no way to nerf it's PvP balance without nerfing it's PvE balance too.
I agree you cant balance PVP to then break PVE, but I disagree with your premise that this game was "balanced" around PVE in the first place. I dont think ANY boss fight was designed with perfect vorpal in mind.. They probably balanced enchants around the lesser version and maybe normals but greaters+ seem to be all out of whack at how they scale... Greater tene is a great example, vorpal is too...
Since the game was not desgined around perfect vorpal you CAN nerf it... Plus like you said its a 20% OR GREATER dps boost... off 1 enchant... NO OTHER ENCHANT is that powerful, GPF was close and that got nerfed for being too strong. The reason it got noticed was because of PVP and they toned it down.
You cant create put linear gains on godly enchants... its the same reason you have dim returns on things like defense and deflection... Because if it was linear it would be FAR to OP...
I get the fact its costs a butt load of AD and thus it should be BiS and very powerful, thats not the issue here... I have pointed out before that people who complain about greater tene need to also realize that they cost about 1mil+ each... so at 6 youve spent 6 mil on just a few enchants... A person who only has 200k-1mil in gear wont even come close to competing and that is fine...
10mil+ for Vorpal, yes it SHOULD be strong... But its TOO strong right now...
I have suggest a less linear gain for lesser to greaters.. lesser = 12% (thats not bad at all...) Normal = 25% thats a 100% boost in damage over lesser, its still not THAT OP... Greater is around 37% (Starting to get OP) and Perfect is 50%?! Thats insane...
What they NEED to do is tone it back to 12% - 18% - 22.5% - 28%.
Do the math on this... @50% crit that = 14% flat damage boost for perfect... thats still VERY VERY good for 1 weapon enchant. plague fire is around 4-5% for greater (dont know if it goes perfect?) That also reduces the PVP OP...
Also I have also suggested that BASE crit severity be knocked down FROM 75% to 50%... This will take a vorpal rogue from +125% TO about 78% (not including builds)... Thats still very strong... They will STILL get very very nice crits (15k range) but you will see much much less 20k+ crits... which is PART of the PVP problem...
They WILL need to tune damage in PVE a little to adjust this, but its not hard just reducing all NPC HP by say 5-8% to comp for this loss of overall dps. Itll affect rogues the most (highest crit) but their overall damage wont be affected THAT much but it will VASTLY help PVP...
I think this SMALL tweak will go a LONG way to balance the game....