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FIX for TENE enchants - FROM a Greater Tene user!
ayroux
Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
So I have been using Tene enchants for a long time. I have played pretty much since OB and have been loving this game BUT I also think that the solution to fixing Tene IS NOT to reduce the CD to a 20 sec server side CD.
Honestly, this didnt really affect PVP AND it made tene even worse for PVE.
In order to re balance this enchant (I still think it SHOULD be powerful) it needs slight modification. It needs to be slightly nerfed for PVP but buffed for PVE purposes.
SOLUTION:
1) Reduce the CD to 15 seconds and make it PER PROC. This means you cant get a proc @ second 19 and another @21 effectively getting back to back procs. This is what makes it OP in PVP. 15 seconds and it cant proc again for 15 seconds...
2) Turn the damage into a DoT.
Lesser = 1% of HP OVER 2 seconds.
Regular = 2 % of HP OVER 4 seconds.
Greater = 3% HP OVER 6 seconds.
Take it even further and do:
Lesser = 1% of HP OVER 3 seconds.
Regular = 2 % of HP OVER 6 seconds.
Greater = 3% HP OVER 9 seconds.
This means each tene will tick for the same amount of damage but greaters only last longer... This gives time to react to the damage, pop a pot, retreat, etc...
CONCLUSION: Buffed Tene due to reduction of current CD for PVE fights. Nerfed Tene for PVP based on NON serverside CD AND DoT instead of upfront damage...
EDIT: For "Cred" here is my link: http://gateway.playneverwinter.com/#char(Tempirius@ayroux)/charactersheet
EDIT: BELOW suggestion of:
If you cut them back to
Lesser = 1%
Normal = 1.5%
Greater = 2.25%
And THEN turned it into a DoT of the damage over say 5 seconds and gave each proc a 8 sec CD (not server based) This would Also be a WAY to balance them for both PVP and PVE...
Seems reasonable as well.
Honestly, this didnt really affect PVP AND it made tene even worse for PVE.
In order to re balance this enchant (I still think it SHOULD be powerful) it needs slight modification. It needs to be slightly nerfed for PVP but buffed for PVE purposes.
SOLUTION:
1) Reduce the CD to 15 seconds and make it PER PROC. This means you cant get a proc @ second 19 and another @21 effectively getting back to back procs. This is what makes it OP in PVP. 15 seconds and it cant proc again for 15 seconds...
2) Turn the damage into a DoT.
Lesser = 1% of HP OVER 2 seconds.
Regular = 2 % of HP OVER 4 seconds.
Greater = 3% HP OVER 6 seconds.
Take it even further and do:
Lesser = 1% of HP OVER 3 seconds.
Regular = 2 % of HP OVER 6 seconds.
Greater = 3% HP OVER 9 seconds.
This means each tene will tick for the same amount of damage but greaters only last longer... This gives time to react to the damage, pop a pot, retreat, etc...
CONCLUSION: Buffed Tene due to reduction of current CD for PVE fights. Nerfed Tene for PVP based on NON serverside CD AND DoT instead of upfront damage...
EDIT: For "Cred" here is my link: http://gateway.playneverwinter.com/#char(Tempirius@ayroux)/charactersheet
EDIT: BELOW suggestion of:
If you cut them back to
Lesser = 1%
Normal = 1.5%
Greater = 2.25%
And THEN turned it into a DoT of the damage over say 5 seconds and gave each proc a 8 sec CD (not server based) This would Also be a WAY to balance them for both PVP and PVE...
Seems reasonable as well.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
LOL sorry but this is one of the dumbest posts I have seen UNLESS you are talking from a PURE PVE perspective...
In PVE they are nerfed bad to <rank 7 enchants. In PVP they > all enchants... I think that is DUMB and hence why I am trying to get the attention of the Devs to balance them a little...
Vorpal is INSANELY OP as well and needs to be nerfed too, but since I have no personal experience with it, I cant comment much..
The problem with a 6 sec CD is that itll proc ALL the time, so if you were to do that, you would HAVE to tone back the damage and I think STILL turn it into a DoT.
If you cut them back to
Lesser = 1%
Normal = 1.5%
Greater = 2.25%
And THEN turned it into a DoT of the damage over say 5 seconds and gave each proc a 8 sec CD (not server based) This would Also be a WAY to balance them for both PVP and PVE...
7 enchants @ 30k hp = 6300 damage / 20 secs = 315/DPS for 7 greater enchants... that is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
(Used to be) 6300 damage / 6 seconds = 1050 DPS.
Proposed in THIS post: 4725 / 8 secs = 590 DPS... So its a 100% boost in PVE damage from current but a significant reduction in PVP damage ALONG with a DoT effect.... Its still not great for PVE but there is no best way to balance it for PVE AND PVP unless you give it the ability to hit MULTIPLE targets then youd have to tone damage back a TON.
I really think this is needed for PVP purposes though. The CD only really affects PVE, not PVP.
MY solution to Vorpal is cut its crit severity by 25% relative so a perfect used to be 50% now it would be 37.5%. ALSO, reduce ALL base crit severity to 50% instead of a base of 75%...
I'm just estimating at how it works now, so please correct and not flame when I'm wrong, but I understood it can proc at every hit you do. That's a huge benefit for AoE's, the very rapid Cloud of Steel of the TR and anything that does damage over time basically.
Maybe have it proc only on the first hit, or third of any at-will that does most damage at the last animation. For damage over time maybe proc once too, or average out the damage.
But unstackable, like armor and weapon enchantments, that will go a long way to evening it out I think
If you dont understand it then why input (just saying ;P ) Besides that it currently works as stated.
It can proc off ANY attack and anything that causes damage. IT currently has a 20 sec serverside CD meaning that if its 12:30:00 And it procs, THAT tene enchant cannot proc until atleast 12:30:20. If you think about it though, in PVP you are very spontanious damaging so you could initiate an attack @ 12:30:19 and get ALL tenes to proc at once. Then NEXT hit at 12:30:21 you can get ALL tene procs to go AGAIN. Now you wouldnt have another proc on any of them until 12:30:40 BUT think of what you just did...
@ 30k HP with 6 greater procs that = 5,400 unmitigated damage x 2 = 10,800 PURE unmitigated damage + any crits on encounters OR any at wills etc... You can see it only takes 2 NON crit encounters combined with that 10,800 damage to kill some1 so.... its makes for a two shot (or close to it) It gets even worse when you see classes critting for 15k+ and then you add tene damage...
That is the issue... On AoEs sure you can get them all to proc at once pretty easy BUT it only will HIT the tene damage to one target (from my understanding) AND its a CD as mentioned above... Plus more ppl dont AoE in PVP AND classes that mass AoE are essentially CWs who have lower HP pools so the Tene does less damage as well..
HAving it hit off "x" attack wont work then players will use that to their advantage and just do 3 at wills to get the procs and then blow the target up, any SET formula on how to proc will be abused.
I think letting only 1 proc off each hit COULD work but that would take ALOT of calculating and I think it would still be OP without adjusting proc rate, damage, CD. I think those are the main issues.
It also NEEDS to be stackable because players have ALREADY paid for them and socketed them. The reason this is an issue is you will see a mass exodus of players if you get rid of the value people have invested (time/money/ad) into... You cant make multiple ones worthless because people have spent SO much AD and it will make the enchants worthless... It will ruin the economy and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ALOT of ppl off...
To be honest that is the main problem with your whole argument. Everyone knows its broke. Everyone knows its ruining PvP in the game. There is already a ton of people turned off from it at this point and more happening every day when they go into a PvP match and get one/two shotted 10 times in a match. Clerics have mostly stopped going into PvP by a large margin.
Its broke yet the people that have it "may get mad and quit if you nerf it too much". Yeah. Let's make sure we leave it alone or only do a small adjustment on it so they only 3 shot people instead and keep that 10% of the playerbase happy that wants to faceroll all the normal/new/casual players.
This game is about 2-3 weeks away from a massive player dropoff. They need to start communicating to the playerbase better and they need to do some decisive changes quickly. Two shot PvP, Exploitable dungeons, disabled GG, boss fights that involve throwing no mechanics other then more adds, insanely out of whack Zen store prices, tene enchants, over priced respecs....
But yeah...lets make sure we dont <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> off the people (which I would estimate over half of which aquired the tene enchants through either the ah exploits or exploiting dungeon runs) that are two shotting everyone.
Tekk's Tavern | http://www.youtube.com/user/TekkorGJC
when people buy items that they know are slotting where they shouldn't be and are way OP for the game's mechanics, they shouldn't be surprised at all when it gets nerfed into the ground... they already got their money's worth out of playing with it and it has already ruined the game for a substantial amount of players (game never will be fixed as long as everyone uses completely OP items that should never exist within it)... it is easy to see why there wasn't a character rollback when this game went out of beta (there wasn't any point to rolling everyone back to level 1 and 0 currency when the developers don't fix the game's issues and problems)
Well thats why I am trying to tone it down dude. Seems like your pissed at me for asking to balance it AND it seems like your more pissed at the game in general than this 1 enchant thing. I mean most of what you mentioned is about the aspects of the game that is causing players to quit and MOST of what you stated as being a problem has nothing to do with TENE enchants.
Are TENE enchants BiS? only for PVP. They suck for PVE so people who are going to leve because of PVE purposes, has nothing to do with Tene...
Also, IF they are going to nerf tene to the ground they will HAVE to release more gear because otherwise whats the carrot at the end of the stick? Geared players with TENE that carrot = pvp owning. If you take that away, they will leave and then what will be the point? People getting owned in PVP ISNT what is making ppl quit... It is making them QQ and stop PvPing but NOT making them quit.
If you want to fix the game, why <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> a ton of ppl off when you can just balance something that will fix it? Its the same as saying 110% mount are OP so nerf all 110% mounts back down to 80%... well guess what, everyone who paid for 110% mounts will get pissed. Nerf to 100% and they will be mad but not THAT mad since its still BiS mount.. See what I am saying?
You can only nerf SO much before you <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> people off...
Also AS stacking was BREAKING pvp to the max (more than tene) and they only JUST fixed that and people STILL played the game... So your argument isnt that solid bro...
I have seen others say the same thing and have YET to see ANY Dev post saying Tene was not supposed to be used how it has been... Please link because I would love to see this and also, it seems to me, that if it WASNT intended, why didnt they fix that? Why did they, in the last patch, increase the internal CD to 20 seconds instead of fixing it.. Seems like its intended bro...
Its only OP BECAUSE they never really put thought into ALOT of thing in the game, it never was fully tested and if it was, they didnt really balance it well...
Which brings me to this whole thread...
WE SHOULD BALANCE TENE ENCHANTS!!!! I dont get why you guys are throwing so much flame in here when its meant as productive critisizm FROM a person that has seen and used the power of it to CONFIRM to the DEVs it IS OP.....
I mean its 1 thing if a non geared player QQs about it because then (I have seen this over and over) people just say "Nothings stopping you, QQ more L2P" but its ANOTHER thing entirely when a person who HAS it is suggesting it gets fixed...
I even proposed methods TO fix it and WHY its OP and WHY its breaking PVP... I am AGREEING that its breaking PVP but INSTEAD of flaming about it, I am proposing a fix that will make it balanced...
My suggestion: Balance It so its not game breaking.
Your suggestion (and tekkwinter's): OMG NERF/REMOVE IT!! SCREW THE GUYS THAT USED IT! They should eat the cost they invested... They deserve it cause they KNEW it wasnt meant to be used like that...
Now which one is constructive and which one sounds like whine? Lets not flame when we are ALL on the SAME side... How about we keep the feedback positive in nature and maybe the DEVs will read this and see that the fix is asked for by MANY people AND is required for balance...
To quote you...can you show me some data on that or a quote from the devs? But seriously...I see your getting ultra defensive and probably its a bit understandable. I understand what your saying. I understand your trying to be proactive in a way and say that yes...it needs to be toned down.
Part of what I was saying is at this point with the way it is...making a small change is not going to help anything. People are already starting to drop off the game and PvP. People who go into PvP and have good gear...say 10k+ GS and are competent players skill wise but then get wrecked in 2 hits by some guy that has full T2 with greater Tene enchants that he got because he has exploited the Spider boss 68 times or had 10 million AD left over from the AH exploits that he moved to a alt account that Cryptic didnt find....that player is not going to understand and say "Hmm they should tone down that Tene thing 10%.".
There is a a thing called TTK that many mo developers refer to in regards to PvP. Warhammer devs used the term alot in that they would look at the TTK (time to kill) numbers on all the PvP matches and if it was too low that would be a big problem and they would adjust that so that more meaningful decisions could be made during the course of a fight in PvP.
The TTK in NW PvP is about 2-3 Seconds. That is INSANE. Nobody should under any circumstances be able to hit someone for more then 20-25% of their total health in any situation. When I as a DC with a 10450 GS standing in my AS circle am hit by a rogue(or GWF or CW) for 19k of my 24k health..something is seriously wrong.
Tene enchants are not the whole problem....but they are a HUGE factor that is amplifying the problem. Im not saying your wrong in trying to look at some changes that can ride the fence and be the best of both worlds. But the fact is...drastic measures are needed fairly soon...or else all the Tene enchant players with be playing with the same 30 others that have them and thats it... here in about 3 weeks.
Tekk's Tavern | http://www.youtube.com/user/TekkorGJC
Seems like nerfing damage, turning to a DOT and adding a hard CD would do a TON to diminish the cheese here...
If you fix Tene, the NEXT OP thing will be vorpal enchants AND massive crit severity + crit. So its a double problem with TTK #s.
Which is WHY I proposed the tene fix AND the crit severity fix... Those will add to TTK numbers AND will get ppl back into PVP.
Also: a match making system would go a LONG way in this game. I wont dive into that here but it would be easy to do and create effective matchmaking. An easy way is it looks for ppl around the same gear score as you and puts them together.
Side Note: Gear score means nothing... I ran a Karr the other day with a GF GS 13k (I have 12k) and outgeared him by a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> amount. I over doubled his dmg AND took over double his damage... yet he had a higher GS? Skill MAY have played a SMALL roll, but I am touting the BS of GS here NOT my playing skill AT ALL.
The problem with toning down damage is that you make players who run the troll, sentinel GWF tank build invincible. It takes two people already just to take them down or they run like the roadrunner for a health pot and come back to contest the point.
If you tone down overall damage, tank GWFs would be so far ahead in terms of pvp that you can run 5 GWFs against any comp besides a mirror match and win.
To sum it up....
PvP is a total mess right now. 1/2 shot kills, No titles or levels to work towards. Only one set of gear that really doesnt help towards PvP. Small maps with only 5vs5. Healers are not rewarded score wise for healing or assists. Heales dont have enough burst healing to save anyone. Some Rogues are using cheap invulnerable stealth builds that make them very hard to even hit. No diminishing returns on CC which leads to frustrating deaths where you cant even use a single ability before going from full health to dead. Tene enchants that are way out of whack......
Those are just the first things off the top of my head. Im sure I could list another 4-5 if I thought for a bit. I hope they make some quick changes soon. As we have all seen the last few years...MMO's get a very small window before people get frustrated and leave with at least 80% of those that leave to never come back.
Tekk's Tavern | http://www.youtube.com/user/TekkorGJC
Believe!
Oh and going by relative PE's player numbers I'd say a LOT of people have quit already. PvP would only be one of the causes however, since not everyone cares about it. Not to count that there's a huge amount of bots running around.
Don't forget some players use rejuv pots that have a separate cooldown from pvp pots and some of them have no cooldown at all. Combine this with the troll GWF build, it's pointless to even fight them unless you can coordinate with your teammate back-to-back dailies.
easy solution: make enchants like tenebrous unique and return it as it was before nerf, this way each time new boxes are released ppl will want to do a new unique greater enchant for their gear. It will be fun and not game breaking like now, i reused to my tene build 2 weeks ago, stacking power and armorpen now. Its just not fun when the pvpis just who hits first
At the end of the day, PWE is a for profit company, and having a large gear disparity is key to them making money in any P2W game. Any adjustments at this point will be unfair to those who have paid, and will probably even dissuade them from making future purchases. They're the real people PWE are catering to, not the people who want more free stuff.
60 GF(14.5GS) Cersei
60 CW(12.4GS) Shadis
60 TR(12.2GS) Dijkstra
60 GWF(12.2GS) Winnowill
45 DC(WIP) Daenerys
I never said tone down ALL damage, just tone down the TWO OP sources of damage. Players who dont play tene will not notice a difference except their survivability goes up.
We are getting off point here...
This isnt about ALL the problems currently its about 1... Tene and PVP...
THE ISSUE: They are broken in PVP and weak in PVE
THE SOLUTION:Find a way to effectively NERF the burst capability and buff the DPS. This can be done through:
1) Damage becoming a DoT
2) Decreasing the damage applied to a single target but give it the ability to hit multiple targets.
3) Fix the CD so its NOT serverside
4) Make it so you can only proc 1 at a time
5) Make it so you can only use 1 hit at a time (alternative to above)
6) Put a cap on the % of HP that can be done as damage in a given CD range. Even at 10% (meaning if you stack 4 greaters, it will cap at 10% of HP as damage with all procs). (I like this option)
7) Make Tene damage NOT unmitigated damage (min/max will start going away from tene)
THERE ARE TONS OF OPTIONS!
You are right, but having an enchant that makes your game a shooter instead a mmorpg also will make ppl not to purchase and leave the game, i have all tenes and quitted that build just because is not fun. 1-59 pvp was great, not anymore.
This is what I realized while leveling my alt. I actually have fun in PVP at lower levels since it takes longer to kill some1 (and some1 to kill me too). Things SEEMED more balanced then and not 1 person was rolling around with ridic enchants PWNING. On my main (GTE GF) I either two shot some1 or get CCd to oblivion while a rogue 2-3 shots me with a CW. Once a minute my SF procs and I can usually kill atleast 1 of them. Thats pretty much pvp summed up. I either roll pugs, or competent/geared players its a crit fest on who can cheese harder...
WHY?
Tene enchants and crit severity builds (vorpal anyone?)
Now they are rare and should be good. but seriously.... They need to be toned down...
Sorry ill rephrase... Perfect Vorpal is ridic OP. 50% more crit severity? You throw that on a rogue and its GG...
no they aren't the 100 people playing is a user base that draws in even more people to the game and if 1 out of 50 spend money upon the game then that 1 person spending $100 to be OP is killing not only the game but profits as well.
clerics have a an ability that allows them to reduce crit damage 80% for 4 seconds after casting a heal... okay that isn't long.. oh wait, did I mention it doesn't work upon the caster just like many things the cleric has and uses upon self isn't allowed to help them
50% severity isn't thaaaat much, not to mention the cost of a perfect vorpal. Sure, it's strong in PvP.