Is it just me, or is the solution incredibly obvious? Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand how Cryptic has not come to this conclusion:
Make the "best" gear (tier sets or better) BoP. Make all other epics that lead up to the "best" BoE since they're used as a ladder to reach the "end game" gear.
Another easy idea is to make all epics that drop from bosses in tier dungeons BoP. Then, add "almost but not quite" as good BoE epics that drop randomly from mobs in the dungeon.
Is it really that hard?
This. Plus:
need=BoP=gold only
greed=BoE=gold/diam
0
bsq2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited June 2013
I wouldn't let the set pieces be seal purchased. That would mean that a dozen pirate runs or cloak towers puts you in full Tiergear.
I do think seals should be able to do things like Dragon eggs though, or random asset/profession packs. Maybe keys, there are lots of options there to encourage continued play. Then just make it so to gear requires some dungeoning skill.
I think a system in which items are BoP=Need >Gold and BoE= greed > Gold/AD is a nice start.
But imo the top would be an upgradable tier items Bind on Craft.
So the scenario would be:
- still powerful items in the market (but not the top items) > economy still alive.
- Best items in the game Bound so players are forced to play (farm?) endgame content for the things (grym coin?) they need to improve their loots.
Officer of ORDO DRACONIS on Dragon shard
Formerly proud Officer of Ordo Draconis on Cannith (DDo)
That particular set of problems was partially solved somewhere else, already.
If your class can't use the item, you can't "Need" on it.
As for people rushing dungeons, a simple kick-vote system would be really nice.
0
damnyankeeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 9Arc User
edited June 2013
I make no claim as to being a know-it-all but I believe making everything BOP is wrong. Maybe the top tier items should be class specifac and ONLY the implied class can get it. But making everything BOP is wrong and it will ruin the economy. Maybe I am naiive, I dont know. I dont hold with ninjas, I think they belong in wow.I like buying the good gear b4 I get to 60, then all I gotta worry about is fights and skill.Having good gear does not make one invincible, but its 1 less worry.
I dont have a solution for this except that making everything BOP, unless I read wrong, is wrong.
I am a casual player but play the game alot and enjoy it.
If you really want players to grind a long time for gear have a look at the aion model.
The best tier sets would be vendor only in that system with the currency coming from dungeons/pvp/foundry.
Tier 2 dungeons give more then tier 1.
Tier 1 dungeons give more then a pvp win and so on...
This way everyone can play the content they like.
The hardcore T2 dungeon runners get their gear first but the casual that plays a foundry mission now and then get the gear they want to eventually.
You can also controll how fast people get gear this way.
0
iamsmokeyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 6Arc User
I wanted to let you all know what's going on with the proposed changes to end game loot.
A bit ago, we got a good deal of feedback that the current system of end game items being BoE can create a scenario where the best gear sets can be trivially purchased on the Auction House. This could potentially have the effect of cheapening the endgame experience of dungeon delves. We listened, took a look and agreed it wasn't unfolding as intended.
The proposed BoP changes that went up on Preview were our first crack at a solution. The idea was that by switching the best set gear to BoP it would be more prestigious. Adding the salvage vendor would continue to guarantee an important source of Astral Diamonds for high end bound items.
Once again, thanks to everyone who took the time to check them out and give us feedback. We got a lot of great comments both for and against the change which is exactly what we need from the community!
Your effort helped us to find several important issues:
With the current reward system, changing everything to BoP would make it prohibitively more difficult to complete your gear sets by running dungeons.
Loot drops, in their current state, can be exceptionally random, and the proposed changes would make that feel worse.
Getting the best slottable items for Companions that are a different class than your character would be extremely difficult.
While the proposed changes would fix one of the end game issues they would also create new ones that we aren't happy with and don't want to see on the live game. So these changes aren't going live yet. We still see an issue where the accomplishments of end game dungeon runners could be undermined by the ease of getting similar or equal gear through the Auction House, so we aren't done yet. We're taking all of your feedback and looking at new ways to solve what isn't working without hurting what is working.
A change like this is pretty huge, and we want to make sure we take the time to get it right. Please keep the feedback coming, it really does help us make a better game!
-Zeke
thank you!! glad you listened to your feedback +1
my possible FIX is this
should add a new dungeon score system. where you have to complete so many and certain dungeons bosses to be able to unlock the next new dungeon... with GEAR score still being in use so even if you unlock the dungeon you still need to gain the gear.
only implement this with the dungeons you get, your helm, chest, feet, arms.. than also unlocking the dungeon means unlocking the ability to wear the gear than you can buy it and wear it.. if you buy it and haven't unlocked the dungeon than simply says you don't meet the requirements to wear that gear yet please unlock spell plague ts dungeons etc... FIX
Change gear to set tokens, allow set tokens to also be purchased with seals. Keep non set items as random BOE, specifically right side slots. Set tokens would be head, arms, armor, main hand, off hand, boots. Does it stop ninja'ing...nope. Does it give an alternative avenue to acquire your set by running enough dungeons...yep.
I've always been a fan of the token system. Everybody at the end of the dungeon gets a token, after you get x, y, z tokens you can buy the gear from vendors. Make the tokens AND gear BOP and problem solved...no ninja'ing because everybody gets at token, if people want to use the tokens to gear their companions, they can do that, if they want the gear, they can do that.
perhaps make it so that the only way to purchase the gear is with a token system (similar to wow and other games). Players would have to obtain x number of tokens for 1 piece from the armor set. Then make this items BOP when purchased.
EDIT: Yes this fix would be ideally for curbing ninja looters, but that's also a large portion (from my experiences) of why some people buy gear to begin with; I mean seriously, drop rates are already low, you're competing with 4 others for gear, and to top it off if your piece DOES drop there is a high chance someone will just ninja it.
Currently the only way around that is forming/joining successful guild just so you can even play the end game content without fear someone is just good to spam need every time loot drops. This would help curb that and make it more viable for someone to run a dungeon outside of the DD event.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
On Topic: All gear past T1 should be BoP with the exception of minor T2's (I.E. Non-Set pieces like necklaces/belts).
You may just make all the loots from bosses BoE and the chest ones BoP. And increase a bit the chance to drop a set item on a final boss. This isn't a wonderful solution, but it might make most people happy and would fulfill your goals - set items would be incredibly expensive and since jewelry drops are pretty common on bosses it's ok, but we would still have a reason to play dungeons at endgame. Just make sure the salvage rewards are worth it, currently it's not.
By the way, the companion issue is a non-existant problem. No one will ever need to slot purple BiS cleric items on a ioun stone. Blue drops can be a very good alternative, and the current stats are fine.
I must say leaving this alone isn't an option, though.
I stand by my doomsaying: we have a ticking time bomb. There are more items coming into the game than demand for them.
The prices are high now but sooner or later they will become so common that the prices will crash to values way below where they should be.
Needing becoming Bind on Pickup is a great start but overall I think it's time that drops aren't guaranteed every run. Perhaps players should just be rewarded with AD or rare/epic resource items which could also upgrade even the late game loot. I'm not sure...
But overall there's just too much loot being dropped in the end. Players need their rewards but if everybody gets them then the items will simply crash in the long term.
I agree with this, there is too much loot being dropped. Lower the drop rates of equipment, add rare resource items, seals etc into the loot tables. That is at least a start...
0
lwetMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
Thanks for reconsidering the changes.
Maybe it's wishful thinking but I want Neverwinter to have truly competitive PvP, not "just for fun" PvP. For that to happen most players need to reach competitive gear.
Neverwinter has a skill gap and a gear gap between players in PvP. The longer it takes for new players to get competitive gear, the more that gear gap widens.
For competitive PvP to exist, players need to perceive skill as more important than gear. Competitive PvP games require some grind, for example League of Legends requires a level 30 account with runes/champions to enter PvP and be competitive. I'm afraid the BoP loot change might extend the grind to the point where balanced competitive PvP rarely appears in public games.
First of all i apologize for my poor english.
Not sure if it could be possible or the solution, but maybe end-game gear (ie purple) should be BoE but only tradeable...
I mean, you cannot sell that kind of gear in the AH, but only trade it for another object of same value (directly or in an apposite section of AH). So only the players who already have a purple gear can trade it.
This could be the base idea, obviously with many adjustement needed to make it work, but that could add also something to the social.
0
mallonslefrMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
I know some people who have like 50 CN weapons waiting so please find a solution for this.
But, please please please implement the salvage system as you had it right now!
I really hate throwing away my outdated epic gear for a pittance of gold. On top of that some of the items are truly worth less than they should be on the auction house. The salvage system as it is could establish a base line AD value for many of the lesser desired items.
EDIT - On the note of seals: They truly become worthless after you start getting good gear. Even the low level ones aren't worth using since you outlevel the gear that you would purchase faster than you obtain seals.
Seals need to get some alternate use. Perhaps as item upgrades or a means to purchase rare profession resources such as Dragon Eggs?
I have to agree with this, the Salvage dude, is a really good idea, and should be implemented, not only because it would give us an alternative to vendoring epics for 1g60s, but also because it would help to clear a glut of junk from the auction house.
What about keeping the current BoE system, but lower the stats on them and apply the rest as upgrades from tokens that drop from the relevant dungeons.
This way people can still sell them on the AH, and it encourages people to run the dungeons in order to unlock the full power of their gear.
0
berinimaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 28Arc User
Personally I do like the idea of Need = Bound to Character even if need remained class specific. This would encourage more people to use greed even in the late game while properly punishing players for needing when they don't truly need the items.
But, please please please implement the salvage system as you had it right now!
I really hate throwing away my outdated epic gear for a pittance of gold. On top of that some of the items are truly worth less than they should be on the auction house. The salvage system as it is could establish a base line AD value for many of the lesser desired items.
EDIT - On the note of seals: They truly become worthless after you start getting good gear. Even the low level ones aren't worth using since you outlevel the gear that you would purchase faster than you obtain seals.
Seals need to get some alternate use. Perhaps as item upgrades or a means to purchase rare profession resources such as Dragon Eggs?
Yeah, thanks so much Zeke. I also would appreciate the idea that you could buy Dragon Eggs or enchantment shards or even rank 7 enchantments with seals. That would people encourage running dungeons even more.
0
berinimaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 28Arc User
I must say leaving this alone isn't an option, though.
I stand by my doomsaying: we have a ticking time bomb. There are more items coming into the game than demand for them.
The prices are high now but sooner or later they will become so common that the prices will crash to values way below where they should be.
Needing becoming Bind on Pickup is a great start but overall I think it's time that drops aren't guaranteed every run. Perhaps players should just be rewarded with AD or rare/epic resource items which could also upgrade even the late game loot. I'm not sure...
But overall there's just too much loot being dropped in the end. Players need their rewards but if everybody gets them then the items will simply crash in the long term.
Well, it's actually not that bad. As long as it is fun levelling an alt, new classes come out and new players start playing the game there will always be demand. Also sooner or later you will introduce new tiers of gear and that will be really expensive/worth grinding and selling. The old gear will be cheap and less demanded then but that is okay and kinda the point here.
I ask my self 1 simple question, why was this NEVER an ISSUE in STO? which has a pretty much identicle economic in terms of ingame credits, there version of astral diamons and then zen?
If you really want players to grind a long time for gear have a look at the aion model.
The best tier sets would be vendor only in that system with the currency coming from dungeons/pvp/foundry.
Tier 2 dungeons give more then tier 1.
Tier 1 dungeons give more then a pvp win and so on...
This way everyone can play the content they like.
The hardcore T2 dungeon runners get their gear first but the casual that plays a foundry mission now and then get the gear they want to eventually.
You can also controll how fast people get gear this way.
Personally I quite like the sound of this, particularly being able to choose the content you prefer.
The solutions to this problem are numerous, and I really applaud you for not falling into the same trap of sweeping thoughtless changes that so many other game creators have!
My solution would be to simply allow party leader to set loot rules. All party members must approve loot rule changes. (to avoid party leader doing ninja looting himself) So you can set your party to class loot for these dungeons. So say you're a Rogue, a rogue item comes up to roll on, you hit need, and roll a 3, the control wizard gets a 100, doesn't matter. Because you have class loot selected the party member playing the class the item is for will always superseded other rolls. If the party has 2 rogues, then the roll will be between them essentially, assuming they both hit need. This should be simple to program into the roll mechanics.
This would allow excess gear to continue being sold on the market, but without removing the ability of certain classes to get the gear they need.
If you want to remove the ability to sell the items all-together then make them BoP, but tradable to an NPC merchant for special tokens. Get enough tokens and you can purchase the piece for your class. Maybe also get a few tokens simply for running the dungeons, so if you have really ****ty luck, you can eventually get the stuff you need anyway after enough grinding.
As many have said here, this is a quick fix for a larger underlying problem. I have never liked the idea of a single gear set being the "end-game" gear set. Once you get it, there is no point in playing the character until new content comes out. This is a prohibitively bad model for sustained game play. From a business stand point it forces game makers to continuously churn out expansions with a new set of "the best" gear to keep people interested. That is a discussion for another day though.
Seems they corrected the main issue of Needing on non-class specific stuff (TR rolling on CW for example), but the pendulum kept going. I would rather see new Tiers become BtC and the previous top set become BoE, and rotate as new sets/tiers release. This would allow incentive for the new gear to be sought as well as incentive to run older stuff for profit (all greed agreement or w/e).
Sure, not perfect but it seems this would strike that balance.
Make it so you can only roll need on items useable by your class..
Then make any item you roll need on become bound to you so if your just needing it to need it you may be able to sell it to the Vendors for HAMSTER or try rolling greed instead of need so if you win you can sell the item so that it does not get bound.
People who can get the upgrades still get,, some items will still get needed that could have been sold on auction house but wont because the person was being a ninja so he will have to settle for small change.
You will cut down on some of the items in the AH,, you will make those able to use the items able to get them and not roll against a Ninja who cant,, and you can have non class specific items able to be needed by anyone at the risk of it being bound to them if they do. Again taking it off the auction house.
With set pieces maybe not have all Boe,, Have certain slots BOE so that you may be able to get the 2 piece bonus but not the four piece unless you are running the instance that has your pieces yourself.
Just my 2 cents
0
bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited June 2013
Here's a suggestion: Add ALL rare/epic loot to the Seal vendors. Make them cost like 150-200 seals, and make them only purchasable upon completion of the dungeon they originate from. If more restrictions are needed, make them BoP so they can only be used on the character that bought them.
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Comments
This. Plus:
need=BoP=gold only
greed=BoE=gold/diam
I do think seals should be able to do things like Dragon eggs though, or random asset/profession packs. Maybe keys, there are lots of options there to encourage continued play. Then just make it so to gear requires some dungeoning skill.
Also all CN and Gauntlgrym gear BoP. All of it.
But imo the top would be an upgradable tier items Bind on Craft.
So the scenario would be:
- still powerful items in the market (but not the top items) > economy still alive.
- Best items in the game Bound so players are forced to play (farm?) endgame content for the things (grym coin?) they need to improve their loots.
ORDO DRACONIS
on Dragon shard
Formerly proud Officer of Ordo Draconis on Cannith (DDo)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If your class can't use the item, you can't "Need" on it.
As for people rushing dungeons, a simple kick-vote system would be really nice.
I dont have a solution for this except that making everything BOP, unless I read wrong, is wrong.
I am a casual player but play the game alot and enjoy it.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
The best tier sets would be vendor only in that system with the currency coming from dungeons/pvp/foundry.
Tier 2 dungeons give more then tier 1.
Tier 1 dungeons give more then a pvp win and so on...
This way everyone can play the content they like.
The hardcore T2 dungeon runners get their gear first but the casual that plays a foundry mission now and then get the gear they want to eventually.
You can also controll how fast people get gear this way.
thank you!! glad you listened to your feedback
my possible FIX is this
should add a new dungeon score system. where you have to complete so many and certain dungeons bosses to be able to unlock the next new dungeon... with GEAR score still being in use so even if you unlock the dungeon you still need to gain the gear.
only implement this with the dungeons you get, your helm, chest, feet, arms.. than also unlocking the dungeon means unlocking the ability to wear the gear than you can buy it and wear it.. if you buy it and haven't unlocked the dungeon than simply says you don't meet the requirements to wear that gear yet please unlock spell plague ts dungeons etc... FIX
I've always been a fan of the token system. Everybody at the end of the dungeon gets a token, after you get x, y, z tokens you can buy the gear from vendors. Make the tokens AND gear BOP and problem solved...no ninja'ing because everybody gets at token, if people want to use the tokens to gear their companions, they can do that, if they want the gear, they can do that.
Blue Harvest
By the way, the companion issue is a non-existant problem. No one will ever need to slot purple BiS cleric items on a ioun stone. Blue drops can be a very good alternative, and the current stats are fine.
I agree with this, there is too much loot being dropped. Lower the drop rates of equipment, add rare resource items, seals etc into the loot tables. That is at least a start...
Maybe it's wishful thinking but I want Neverwinter to have truly competitive PvP, not "just for fun" PvP. For that to happen most players need to reach competitive gear.
Neverwinter has a skill gap and a gear gap between players in PvP. The longer it takes for new players to get competitive gear, the more that gear gap widens.
For competitive PvP to exist, players need to perceive skill as more important than gear. Competitive PvP games require some grind, for example League of Legends requires a level 30 account with runes/champions to enter PvP and be competitive. I'm afraid the BoP loot change might extend the grind to the point where balanced competitive PvP rarely appears in public games.
Not sure if it could be possible or the solution, but maybe end-game gear (ie purple) should be BoE but only tradeable...
I mean, you cannot sell that kind of gear in the AH, but only trade it for another object of same value (directly or in an apposite section of AH). So only the players who already have a purple gear can trade it.
This could be the base idea, obviously with many adjustement needed to make it work, but that could add also something to the social.
I have to agree with this, the Salvage dude, is a really good idea, and should be implemented, not only because it would give us an alternative to vendoring epics for 1g60s, but also because it would help to clear a glut of junk from the auction house.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
My opinions are my own, and do not represent those of Perfect World Entertainment, or Cryptic Studios
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This way people can still sell them on the AH, and it encourages people to run the dungeons in order to unlock the full power of their gear.
Yeah, thanks so much Zeke. I also would appreciate the idea that you could buy Dragon Eggs or enchantment shards or even rank 7 enchantments with seals. That would people encourage running dungeons even more.
Well, it's actually not that bad. As long as it is fun levelling an alt, new classes come out and new players start playing the game there will always be demand. Also sooner or later you will introduce new tiers of gear and that will be really expensive/worth grinding and selling. The old gear will be cheap and less demanded then but that is okay and kinda the point here.
The games that have been able to do that and do it well have been successful.
I'm sure that a solution can be reached, many great ideas have been proposed on the previous thread!
But making everything BOP would certainly have been a disaster.
Thanks again--it feels great to know that you guys are listening.
My solution would be to simply allow party leader to set loot rules. All party members must approve loot rule changes. (to avoid party leader doing ninja looting himself) So you can set your party to class loot for these dungeons. So say you're a Rogue, a rogue item comes up to roll on, you hit need, and roll a 3, the control wizard gets a 100, doesn't matter. Because you have class loot selected the party member playing the class the item is for will always superseded other rolls. If the party has 2 rogues, then the roll will be between them essentially, assuming they both hit need. This should be simple to program into the roll mechanics.
This would allow excess gear to continue being sold on the market, but without removing the ability of certain classes to get the gear they need.
If you want to remove the ability to sell the items all-together then make them BoP, but tradable to an NPC merchant for special tokens. Get enough tokens and you can purchase the piece for your class. Maybe also get a few tokens simply for running the dungeons, so if you have really ****ty luck, you can eventually get the stuff you need anyway after enough grinding.
As many have said here, this is a quick fix for a larger underlying problem. I have never liked the idea of a single gear set being the "end-game" gear set. Once you get it, there is no point in playing the character until new content comes out. This is a prohibitively bad model for sustained game play. From a business stand point it forces game makers to continuously churn out expansions with a new set of "the best" gear to keep people interested. That is a discussion for another day though.
Hope this helps,
- Fade
Sure, not perfect but it seems this would strike that balance.
My 2 cp
Edit: posted in this thread for berevity
Then make any item you roll need on become bound to you so if your just needing it to need it you may be able to sell it to the Vendors for HAMSTER or try rolling greed instead of need so if you win you can sell the item so that it does not get bound.
People who can get the upgrades still get,, some items will still get needed that could have been sold on auction house but wont because the person was being a ninja so he will have to settle for small change.
You will cut down on some of the items in the AH,, you will make those able to use the items able to get them and not roll against a Ninja who cant,, and you can have non class specific items able to be needed by anyone at the risk of it being bound to them if they do. Again taking it off the auction house.
With set pieces maybe not have all Boe,, Have certain slots BOE so that you may be able to get the 2 piece bonus but not the four piece unless you are running the instance that has your pieces yourself.
Just my 2 cents
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
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