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Cryptic, please do not kill the holy trinity.
nwrogue
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
So many MMO's these days are trying to kill the classic 'holy trinity' (DPS, Tank, Healer). Games like Guild Wars 2 are removing healing classes, in favor of 'mitigation', self heals, dodges and potion mitigation. That's fine, to each game their own. But should the holy trinity be kept in a current generation MMO based on D&D? Yes, yes, YES. D&D is possibly where it all began for this 'trend', and I fear that Devoted Cleric is being pulled away from it's D&D roots. I can understand some modifications. No turn based or dice roll systems on an MMO, and the action combat is nice. The upcoming changes to clerics scares me along with the fact that we will have only 1 true support class out of 7 classes total(GF, GWF, CW, DC, TR, AR, SW makes seven if you're curious.) Please push DC back into direct nuke and heal territory, and open ways for proper 'mitigation' and passive supports/hybrids such as Bard/Druid (Regardless of 4th edition rule set preferences)
So, discuss. Am I alone for wanting to preserve the holy trinity in Neverwinter?
So, discuss. Am I alone for wanting to preserve the holy trinity in Neverwinter?
Milla Jovovich(Rogue)/Tilda Swinton(Cleric) - Guild Leader of CatAssTrophy on Beholder
Post edited by nwrogue on
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Cleric is a mitigation class first, healer second, utility third.
GF is just a mess and has low synergy with support classes plus the entire environment in PvE. They should have released a physical ranger class or magic DoT class first instead.
CW+DC is the support synergy of the game. You cannot do non-trivial content without them.
These non-Holy Trinity combos are not only common to action combat games but many players consider them much more exciting than traditional MMORPG.
From a theoretical perspective, having three whole roles almost entirely into one class like, threat+control+soak, is quite limiting to gameplay and freedom of MMO game design.
Yes. Other games already do that. I would want a game that gives more flexibility.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
Heh. The Trinity started in MMO to promote group play, but the two LEAST favorite class are healers and tanks.
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Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
Personally, I enjoy role-based gameplay (with some hybridization), but there are so many ways to do it other than tank/heal/dps. And the whole "threat" mechanic as usually implemented is just dumb.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
The greater and more puzzling question is that of skins. Wizards that can only access very limited elemental forms of magic. Half-demons that demonstrate only one color of skin as a possibility. (Where are purple, blue, green, yellow, orange, and gray?) Only one group of elves in Faerun? Gnomes? Gray Orcs from the Moonshaes for DC? Fighter types that regardless of hundreds of miles of separation physically, and thousands of years of unique historical and cultural development, all use the exact same weapons. You are looking at game mechanics, when the real problem with the game is its complete and utter loss of the very heart of what D&D was all about - expressive Role Play.
Defender : Defenders focus on blocking attacking enemies and focusing their attacks on themselves. Defender classes are typically focused on melee combat, however some classes such as Swordmages also have ranged combat capabilities. (wikipedia)
Leader: Leaders are focused on buffing and healing allies. Some Leader classes and builds are focused towards either melee or ranged combat, however the role as a whole is not. (wikipedia)
Striker: Strikers are focused on mobility, dealing heavy damage to single targets and avoiding attacks. Some Striker classes and builds are focused towards either melee or ranged combat, however the role as a whole is not. (wikipedia)
Controller: Controllers focus on affecting multiple targets at once, either damaging or debuffing them, or altering the battlefield's terrain. Some classes, such as Wizards and Invokers, are focused towards ranged combat, while Druids can specialize in ranged or melee combat. (wikipedia)
You can see the modified roles of each NW class in their wiki (curse):
CW - Controller
GF - Defender
GWF - Secondary Striker & Secondary Defender
DC - Leader & Secondary Controller
TR - Striker
So you should expect something like that about the classes.
Holy Trinity... Meh. It has certanly worked for many MMORPGs, but this system isn't far from it, and innovation is good in most of the cases, so evolve.
The thing is that they have to balance the game, so that the classes can play their role properly.
"The harder the game, the better."
VERY GOOD i try to explain this to people all the time classes have their roles play the role the way its ment to be played.... if you want to be a Striker instead of a controler dont roll a CW
Brilliant! This info needs to be in the character selection screens. I feel like people are trying to play like this is every other MMO, which is totally acceptable, but the reality of the situation is that this is indeed a unique structure. Mages are not glass cannons, Clerics don't only focus on "the green bars," everyone has more diverse roles than the common trinity. Strikers gonna strike, controllers gonna 'troll, and clerics gonna keep the group glued together.
I will say that the role of the GWF does seem a bit wonky so far, and as you detailed, not really excelling at one thing like another class can. Maybe upping their potential as a leader class instead of defender? Group buffs, shouts, etc?
+1 but players will still insist it should be different
The characters in Neverwinter are close to 4e, still some tweaking needed,
There are those that still think a GWF should be the main damage dealer, sorry they never have been (GWF - Secondary Striker & Secondary Defender).
the waiting... ive never waited more hten 5 min in zone chat to find a cleric...
Take the holy trinity out behind the barn and shoot it. Utilitarian characters that can find a way to contribute in any circumstance trump specialist characters which are really good at one thing and bad at all others.
The Jarlaxles and Danillos were also the best characters to read about. When fighters cant kill their way out of a situation and blastomancy doesnt work, those were the cats who survived - through unpredictability and being crafty.
Holy trinity games are just Gauntlet with better graphics.
'dying' in GW2 is apparently moving from one new live event to the next while almost constantly balancing skills. Neverwinter needs to do more of this 'dying' stuff.
I don't want the trinity. If I did I would play WoW or STO or SWTOR or any of the other MMOs built around it.
Here! Here!!
I DESPISE the idea of a MANDATORY Trinity, especially when there is virtually no variation between characters within a class.
I have always found a flexible system much more entertaining to play. Champs and TSW being my second and third favourites, respectively. My all time favourite?
AD&D 3.5.
'Wen considered the nature of time and understood that the universe is, instant by instant, recreated anew. Therefore, he understood, there is in truth no past, only a memory of the past. Blink your eyes, and the world you see next did not exist when you closed them. Therefore, he said, the only appropriate state of the mind is surprise. The only appropriate state of the heart is joy. The sky you see now, you have never seen before. The perfect moment is now. Be glad of it.' Terry Pratchet The Thief Of Time
P.S That is how raiderz sorta is, thats why I like raiderz but raiderz lack new content. Every 1 and a half to two months, also raiderz you can choose skill from a different type. If you want cleric skill you can choose that skill, this is how nw should be, to an extent.
DDO started in 2006 fairly close to 3.5. It has since morphed into something completely different however.
What better way to make those classes fun than by giving them more dps? You have a sense of contribution as the healer because you help kill that big bad dragon rather than /popcorn and toss heals when the people doing all the work get the glory of killing that dragon. Or as a tank, rather than shouting profanities to keep that dragon breathing fire on your shield, you actually dealt a decisive blow to him.
There's not much else you can do to make those classes fun and people to actually want to play them. If it makes the dps butthurt because there isn't such a huge gap in the meters but at the same time makes forming a group shorter and people to actually enjoy that class. So be it. Did I also say, it gets more people to see that content because there's more of the less popular classes by default?
Also, people like seeing big numbers on their screen
Thank you for actually getting what I meant. I don't mean pen and paper. I don't mean classic D&D rules. I'm talking about the D&D put in videogames such as Balders Gate, NWN, Icewind Dale, etc. Definite holy trinity in each game. (NWN 1 could be an exception due to how it was set up with NPC+PC, but Cleric was still a cleric). And no, I'm not including games that are 7+ years old (WoW, DAoC, Asheron's Call, Shadowbane) where a holy trinity existed or was meta. I'm talking about new generation games aiming to kill it in this genre. Guild Wars 2, TERA (In it's own way), and others that I am braindead and can't remember due to no sleep. The allure of Neverwinter game from not only the Forgotten Realms setting, but from the games we all grew up on and loved based on it. Less of that being people who've actually rolled the dice IRL.
And, some of us like to be the healers. GW2, for example, being real big on killing the holy trinity (even using that in their marketing), made it where it simply wasn't possible to be a healer. If you went water spec Elementalist, you were dead weight.
I play GW2 and it is okay for what it offers, but I really want Neverwinter to be where I will be going. There needs to be innovation in MMOs, though I seriously do not want everything to go online, and the industry needs to retire WoW as a baseline or benchmark to measure success against.
glassdoor.com - Cryptic Studios Review
Then go ahead and run T2s with 5 TRs , it will be exciting I assure you .
Your not alone but I do not support the 'holy trinity'. We have had years of sitting around in Q's, yelling into Zone "Need a healer for X dungeon!" "Need a tank for X dungeon!". Do not get me wrong, it does work in alot of systems, but even NW Q system can not even get on board with this as evidence of how random your party always is. Also as people have suggested, if that kind of set up means so much to you, probably 99% of the mmos out there already have that set up, but even then they have ways of off specing so you dont feel like your eternally traped in a role you dont want to be in just to see dungeons you havent been too before.