krahctMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
There was a game once that nailed the cleric IMO...they called it a Battle Cleric and it used a two handed pole axe (I believe), it also had some decent heals but had to fight to build up to the powerful ones. It was as if the ensuing battle drove the righteousness of the hardened battle cleric through the roof and the more intense the fighting the better the heals.
That game was called...wait for it...somethingHammer
"I never make mistakes, I once thought I did but I was wrong"
RIFT is the only game I've seen that really kept a trinity, but also had a huge amount of versatility. Playing a chloromancer was probably the most fun I've had as a pure healer in any MMO.
I get it, I'm a minority, but I actually LIKE being the healer, the one that you know if you weren't there, this group would be done for. Any one can dps, it takes a real trooper to play a healer or a tank.
Is allways the same things -.- Q,Q i can't find an healer, why we don't ask for better potion so i can stay under the boss, use auto atk and drink some potion. Thx to the cleric, a lot of dumb *** dps are still alive, they think's to be pro because they do x5 more damage then me, but if i remove my AS or my Bastion under their *** they will die in 1 sec. Yeah, dps class are so pro on deal damage. You wont use potion, do it and let me know so i stop waste my skill under your ***. I hear they did a new tetris, no need of healer there
I've always thought there's something intrinsically wrong with what the OP defines as the "holy trinity" of MMO combat. As a long-time EQ and EQ2 player, I've occasionally passed a joke about the ridiculous idea of transitioning this concept into a real-life scenario - you'd tend to get stuck at the part where you need to recruit someone to stand there and heal everyone else during the fight. Or in the case of this game, you'd get stuck at the part where you're looking for beverages to drink that heal you as you go. Stupid. Maybe necessary for gaming, I don't know, but stupid. Healers and healing potions are just plain stupid when you pause to think about it.
My remedy for this would be to eliminate healing altogether. Make each class independent, but complementary in such a way that it would still be advantageous to group; i.e., each class might have buffs that they couldn't use on themselves but could use on other classes. Your character would have a set # of HP's, and if you die, you die - the fights would be pure strategy and execution. If you barely make it through the fight, and the mob dies, then you win. Then you rest. Or whatever.
tl;dr - No OP I disagree, I think your holy trinity of MMO combat is archaic enough now to be boring, and unrealistic enough to be left behind in favor of a better system as soon as someone figures out how to make combat fun and challenging without requiring someone to stand there playing doctor while everyone else is fighting.
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xippinMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
There was a game once that nailed the cleric IMO...they called it a Battle Cleric and it used a two handed pole axe (I believe), it also had some decent heals but had to fight to build up to the powerful ones. It was as if the ensuing battle drove the righteousness of the hardened battle cleric through the roof and the more intense the fighting the better the heals.
That game was called...wait for it...somethingHammer
I don't really know what game you are talking about, but the game I feel approached healers the best was Vanguard.
Cleric
Melee Healer (2h Mace/hammer or 1h mace/hammer and shield)
Relies on melee attacks to build mana to cast heals
Buffs themselves so melee attacks heal the party or damage the mobs etc.
Relies on melee attacks to build another kind of resource for more powerful heals
Bloodmage
Ranged Healer/Nuker
Could link themselves to the tank, and then link themselves to the entire raid to divide damage among everyone (would ultimately deal like 500% more damage to heal through, but smaller amount of damage to each person rather then a single target, additionally if an AoE hit the raid then the raid would take extreme amounts of damage as it was multiplied off of each person)
Relied on Lifetaps to heal everyone, one lifetap would heal your defensive target from the damage dealt to the offensive target, another would heal you from your offensive target.
Disciple
Melee Healer/Subsidiary DPS'er (Fist Wrappings or Staff)
Monk style attacks using combinations of abilities to cast certain heals
Builds a secondary resource that allows them to cast direct heals
Vanguard made healing interesting, even to the point if a bloodmage lifetapped the wrong mob/boss...the lifetap would backfire and you would nuke yourself or the tank and heal the boss for massive amounts.
RIFT is the only game I've seen that really kept a trinity, but also had a huge amount of versatility. Playing a chloromancer was probably the most fun I've had as a pure healer in any MMO.
I get it, I'm a minority, but I actually LIKE being the healer, the one that you know if you weren't there, this group would be done for. Any one can dps, it takes a real trooper to play a healer or a tank.
/2c
I'm with you there. I don't have to remind everyone on TS for how much I've just critted that mob only to make sure they know I'm useful somehow.
The real deal is when party memebers realise you are good without glaring ****ing number flying over whole your screen.
I don't care either way, but I know that healers generally suck in pvp because they can usually set up some nigh unkillable build and become little mini bosses, while in pve having to wait on a tank and cleric to do instances is a pain unless the population of the game is huge like wow's.
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xenobiusMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
You know, every time I see posts that bash the trinity, I can't help but to think of little, clueless kids arguing over who gets to be what. Everyone wants to be the captain/knight in shining armor/king/whatever, despite the fact that for the game to be really complex and fun you need players of all kinds. While it's okay for kids to think that way, it's beyond silly to think you can cater to a grown up audience with childish "I wanna be KING!" mentality.
Trinity (or any other strict role distribution system, for that matter) allows for complexity. Specialized roles mean that there can be intricate, often difficult tasks to undertake for each archetype, that collaboration and synergy is required on many levels, etc. Tanks need to learn aggro management and careful positioning, and work with DPS classes on interrupts/snares, DPS in turn need to perform their primary task (dealing damage fast enough to beat enrage timers) while on a lookout for things that require their attention (CC, kiting, you name it), healers keep everyone alive and decide on resource management - the fun stems from the very fact that group works as a whole, helping each other out.
"Everyone is king" mentality pretty much means that everything needs to be dumbed down to a level where performing random stunts still works. Look at guild wars 2 - no trinity, practically nonexistent complexity, almost no resource management. You mash the buttons, roll out of harm's way and that's it. There is action, but it's about as fun as randomly rolling in beach sand - exciting at first, gets old in a flash. If you want to play action games - buy some fighting titles (Street Fighter comes to mind) or maybe a third person slasher like DMC/Dark Souls, but please, don't try to bring this to MMOs, the genre is NOT about that.
So many MMO's these days are trying to kill the classic 'holy trinity' (DPS, Tank, Healer). Games like Guild Wars 2 are removing healing classes, in favor of 'mitigation', self heals, dodges and potion mitigation. That's fine, to each game their own. But should the holy trinity be kept in a current generation MMO based on D&D? Yes, yes, YES. D&D is possibly where it all began for this 'trend', and I fear that Devoted Cleric is being pulled away from it's D&D roots. I can understand some modifications. No turn based or dice roll systems on an MMO, and the action combat is nice. The upcoming changes to clerics scares me along with the fact that we will have only 1 true support class out of 7 classes total(GF, GWF, CW, DC, TR, AR, SW makes seven if you're curious.) Please push DC back into direct nuke and heal territory, and open ways for proper 'mitigation' and passive supports/hybrids such as Bard/Druid (Regardless of 4th edition rule set preferences)
So, discuss. Am I alone for wanting to preserve the holy trinity in Neverwinter?
umm, I don't what dnd you're playing, but having played 2nd ed to 3.5........there was never a single point where cleric was a crucial class. honestly they weren't even remotely important. they're second rate tank/fighters with some buffs who completely annihilate undead and not much else
the dnd "holy trinity" was fighter, rogue, and mage. every other class was either an unrequired (though very helpful) support, or something between the functions of the holy trin and support
You know, every time I see posts that bash the trinity, I can't help but to think of little, clueless kids arguing over who gets to be what. Everyone wants to be the captain/knight in shining armor/king/whatever, despite the fact that for the game to be really complex and fun you need players of all kinds. While it's okay for kids to think that way, it's beyond silly to think you can cater to a grown up audience with childish "I wanna be KING!" mentality.
Trinity (or any other strict role distribution system, for that matter) allows for complexity. Specialized roles mean that there can be intricate, often difficult tasks to undertake for each archetype, that collaboration and synergy is required on many levels, etc. Tanks need to learn aggro management and careful positioning, and work with DPS classes on interrupts/snares, DPS in turn need to perform their primary task (dealing damage fast enough to beat enrage timers) while on a lookout for things that require their attention (CC, kiting, you name it), healers keep everyone alive and decide on resource management - the fun stems from the very fact that group works as a whole, helping each other out.
"Everyone is king" mentality pretty much means that everything needs to be dumbed down to a level where performing random stunts still works. Look at guild wars 2 - no trinity, practically nonexistent complexity, almost no resource management. You mash the buttons, roll out of harm's way and that's it. There is action, but it's about as fun as randomly rolling in beach sand - exciting at first, gets old in a flash. If you want to play action games - buy some fighting titles (Street Fighter comes to mind) or maybe a third person slasher like DMC/Dark Souls, but please, don't try to bring this to MMOs, the genre is NOT about that.
no...are you kidding me.......mmorpg holy trinity is the most mind numbingly simplistic gameplay ever. wow, tanks need to spam threat while dps spams dps and healer spams heal on whoever's low hp...so hard to understand. it's not like people haven't been doing the exact same thing for the past 15 years or anything
I actually feel nw is a good balance of styles between the old mmorpg feel of working together and the now popular action mmo style...which boils down to the whole party being complete morons and facetanking everything and dying while 1 or 2 players who aren't completely incompetent just solo/duo everything. it only takes 1 or 2 complete morons in nw to get the whole group massacred
This game has done nothing to destroy the trinity, honestly. Try doing a dungeon with NO cleric at all - come back and tell me how it goes. The newest patch on preview just enforces that fact, they're giving tanks the ability to *gasp* pull/keep threat.
Trinity gameplay doesn't have to be boring, it's all in how that role does what it does.
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draconerus1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 26Arc User
edited June 2013
A lot of MMO's try to do away with the Holy Trinity and fail. They leave out raids as well.
A lot of MMO's try to do away with the Holy Trinity and fail. They leave out raids as well.
vindictus only had dps classes...and it was great for like a year. it died when they decided skill2win wasn't making enough money and added godmode pay2win gears
vindictus only had dps classes...and it was great for like a year. it died when they decided skill2win wasn't making enough money and added godmode pay2win gears
Because you liked the game doesn't mean it was good or worked well. WoW has the best raiding system, it's as simple as that. The trinity works.
Because you liked the game doesn't mean it was good or worked well. WoW has the best raiding system, it's as simple as that. The trinity works.
And you do not seem to understand that nothing exists in isolation. WoW has massive synergy between all its gameplay and content. In other words, their whole class design AND content works together to support such a Holy Trinity.
Trying to introduce a true Holy Trinity randomly into an MMO, especially with the kind of content and other classes in NW, would be ridiculous. It would not be far off from trying to do the same to a game like Vindictus or Dragon Nest.
This game is based on D&D rules and it is very clear about that, even if some may not approve of the depth of the content that complements the class design.
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xenobiusMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
no...are you kidding me.......mmorpg holy trinity is the most mind numbingly simplistic gameplay ever. wow, tanks need to spam threat while dps spams dps and healer spams heal on whoever's low hp...so hard to understand.
This is NOT what a proper trinity-based MMO boss battle looks like, and had you played any one of them (EQ2, Rift and of course, WoW) you wouldn't be saying this.
Take, for example, an old fight from WoW:TBC, Reliquary of Souls. Or maybe the good ol' Mimiron. Or Twilight Ascendant fight, if not Sinestra, even. You won't last twenty seconds with your "spam this, spam that" approach - and those are just random examples of fights that a proper, tank-heal-dps based system can deliver.
And you do not seem to understand that nothing exists in isolation. WoW has massive synergy between all its gameplay and content. In other words, their whole class design AND content works together to support such a Holy Trinity.
Trying to introduce a true Holy Trinity randomly into an MMO, especially with the kind of content and other classes in NW, would be ridiculous. It would not be far off from trying to do the same to a game like Vindictus or Dragon Nest.
This game is based on D&D rules and it is very clear about that, even if some may not approve of the depth of the content that complements the class design.
Oh, I agree. I wasn't talking about NW. It's just people randomly hating on a system that works because they seek innovation.
The "push of all mobs off cliff" mechanic honestly ****s up a lot. It makes things so simplistic. It almost doesn't allow for a holy trinity. Maybe things will change in a raid environment where a single cleric hopefully won't outheal all incoming dmg on any squishy.
Lastly, I ****ing hate people who talk **** about systems they don't understand because bandwagoning is cool. For example, WoW arena had many, many problems. However, the skillcap was ****ing inmense. No one can deny that. Yet you have people saying WoW arena was about spamming ccs and mashing your keys. Most of these people also never got even close to gladiator or rank 1. Same concept with people saying WoW PvE was just tanking and spanking everything. Stop hating on WoW because you're a hipster. WoW did many things wrongs, it also got many things right.
You don't talk about things you don't know. A novel astrophysicist's opinion is not to be regarded as truth when talking about a matter not pertaining to astrophysics (obviously you should never blindly hold things as truths, but you get the point).
This is NOT what a proper trinity-based MMO boss battle looks like, and had you played any one of them (EQ2, Rift and of course, WoW) you wouldn't be saying this.
Take, for example, an old fight from WoW:TBC, Reliquary of Souls. Or maybe the good ol' Mimiron. Or Twilight Ascendant fight, if not Sinestra, even. You won't last twenty seconds with your "spam this, spam that" approach - and those are just random examples of fights that a proper, tank-heal-dps based system can deliver.
Class Assignments
Tanks
Phase 1: Follow the plan in the phase description, remembering to save your health for the enraged stages. DPS all the time.
Phase 2: If you are MT, you will be Spellreflect-ing his Deaden and building as much threat as you can.
Phase 3: Tank Essence of Anger, pointing it away from the raid, and use up your rage as fast as you can.
Rogues
Phase 1: Follow the plan in the phase description. You may have to save your health for the enraged stages so you can Evasion tank. DPS all the time.
Phase 2: Interrupt Spirit Shock, taking great care not to interrupt Deaden, and DPS.
Phase 3: DPS as much as possible.
Warlocks
Phase 1: Follow the plan in the phase description. You may have to save your health for the enraged stages if you have high stamina. DPS all the time.
Phase 2: DPS as much as possible and use felhunter if your raid decides to remove the Rune Shield that way.
Phase 3: DPS as much as possible.
Mages
Phase 1: Follow the plan in the phase description. DPS all the time.
Phase 2: DPS as much as possible and use Spellsteal if your raid decides to remove the Rune Shield that way.
Phase 3: DPS as much as possible.
Hunters
Phase 1: Follow the plan in the phase description. DPS all the time.
Phase 2/3: DPS as much as possible. Using Misdirection is advised on phases 2 and 3 so that tanks can get extra threat (thus allowing more DPS).
Healers
Phase 1: Follow the plan in the phase description. DPS all the time. Dispel Soul Drain.
Phase 2: Assigned in two different groups: first one being the Main Tank and melee DPS and the second being the ranged group. Shamans prove to be good at this with Chain Heal.
Phase 3: Again an intensive healing fight where you need to assign healers to both melee and tank as well as the ranged DPS players.
.....well, guess this is a guide to teach you how to not last twenty seconds then. dps all the time is so unspammy
I mean yes, I'm aware the coordinating the team and getting into position prior to initiating everyone's spamfest is integral to the raid's success, but that doesn't really change the actual fight from being anything besides drumming a dps/threat/heal rotation with little to no thought or regard to anything happening on screen
Some WoW fights were extremely difficult and complex until nerfed. Some bosses were gear checks. Stop generalizing.
Give me an example of raiding that was more complicated/difficult than in WoW.
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xenobiusMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
I mean yes, I'm aware the coordinating the team and getting into position prior to initiating everyone's spamfest is integral to the raid's success, but that doesn't really change the actual fight from being anything besides drumming a dps/threat/heal rotation with little to no thought or regard to anything happening on screen
Please tell me you're kidding (or rather, failing at it) because if not, you just made a huge fool out of yourself.
It just so happens that what you decided to quote from the Reliquary fight has a critical line "Follow the plan in the phase description.", and phase description takes about 80% of the text there.
Please tell me you're kidding (or rather, failing at it) because if not, you just made a huge fool out of yourself.
It just so happens that what you decided to quote from the Reliquary fight has a critical line "Follow the plan in the phase description.", and phase description takes about 80% of the text there.
...you mean the plan of tank at point A until fixated, then move to point B to not get slaughtered?
...................wait, is this why 99% of nw players don't understand the concept of not standing in red circles when they're almost dead....
you wanna see what a real "plan" looks like? what real complexity and depth and strategy is? look at all the bs you'd have to deal with in a vindictus raid:
I've been over the moon for GW2 and enjoying NW's action combat because I did spend time on Reliquary of Souls (and I was a rogue--all I had to do was organize a kick rotation). After four years of participation in a raiding guild, I gladly eschew the "hard core," trinity style jerk fests of WoW and its ilk.
As interesting as Gauntlegrym looks, I probably won't ever run it because I don't want to commit to a guild or raid schedule ever again. But hey, it's fine if you do. Knock yourself out! I'm glad Cryptic is adding something to appease the raiding crowd.
Just know that there are a wide range of players here with all sorts of different experiences. I'm all about the casual play these days (I'm totes carebear, <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up your hardcores--trolololol). I love the idea of being able to log in, queue up for a PuG dungeon, and finish said dungeon in 45 minutes. That is the bee's knees for me, son. I'd be surprised if I'm in the minority these days.
Have any of you actually tried doing dungeons in GW2? It's awful, why do you think that game flopped so fast when everyone hit level cap? The Honly Trinity is a necessary evil. I'd much rather have it than 5 people trying to play a DPS build, monsters aggroing everything and everyone, and dying repeatedly once your self-heal was on CD and you run out of dodges.
Have any of you actually tried doing dungeons in GW2? It's awful, why do you think that game flopped so fast when everyone hit level cap? The Honly Trinity is a necessary evil. I'd much rather have it than 5 people trying to play a DPS build, monsters aggroing everything and everyone, and dying repeatedly once your self-heal was on CD and you run out of dodges.
no. teamwork is necessary. play more games besides mmos and you'll learn that there are many other team synergies other than tank/heal/dps
the only evil intrinsic to classic tank/dps/heal is that everyone only does 1 role. when you have a 32 player raid and look at the big picture? yeah, it'll look complicated. when you're an actual single player and all you do is spam your rotation to fulfill your one function in that team of 32? that's boring as **** to play
Clearly you don't understand the concept of bringing 5 strangers together and expecting them to have synergy. You clearly haven't play GW2 so I don't know why you responded to my post.
Clearly you don't understand the concept of bringing 5 strangers together and expecting them to have synergy. You clearly haven't play GW2 so I don't know why you responded to my post.
cuz GW2 is irrelevant to the point. if mmo players would stop being the most incompetent gamers on the planet for a second, maybe they'll be able to handle classes and team comps that involve more than mindlessly spamming one rotation until everything dies
plus, I don't see why 5 strangers is even a part of your point. you realize the queue does try to get 1 of each class for this game, right? it only screws up when someone leaves/gets kicked and the queue starts throwing whoever happens to queue next into the group, and soon you have 5 rogues
I agree there NEEDS to be more mechanics in the boss fights and each player NEEDS to play some type of crucial role, but when you force players into the heal/tank/dps strategy it gets really boring really fast.
What they need to do is dimish the roles a little. Make the tank = absorb damage for the rest of the team. Give the healer less single target/more AoE heals so each player is forced to watch their own HP realizing that they cant get brought back to 100% in a second. I think Neverwinter does SOME of this right...
Where it fails is the bad boss mechanics that just spawn add after add. There is no real benefit to a GF besides just DPS.
What Bosses NEED to do is have mechanics built in them. I, for one, am a big fan of environmental mechanics because they 1) dont require any specific build/class etc and 2) requires the player to actually have skill/timing/coordination.
I would love to see how traps build in the game that actually matter. I would love to see less adds and more environmental damagers for people that know how/when to use them. A pillar to knock over and AoE stun mobs it hits + some damage. A stalagtite on the roof of a cave a ranged DPS needs to hit to to damage/stun/knock down mobs. You can add things LIKE this to every fight.
Also things like trap doors on boss fights that remove a player temporarily from the fight... If you are observant you can avoid it, if you are bad, it hurts your team and slows the fight down...
Mechanics like a net the boss can throw (onto a "red" area) that disables you for 10 seconds etc... Things LIKE that make the boss fights fun/challenging/exciting and its not ALL about the tank/spank and spam...
Make it have ques or tells that tell you to stop DPSing and start avoiding/interacting/timing things... You could even add some mechanic like pulling a boss ONTO a trap that will the stun/damage him, or... instead of having a CW focus on CCing ALL the mobs bosses spawn, take it to the extreme, throw TONS of adds at you but give an environmental way of handling the adds, like pulling THEM onto a trap. This still takes skill/timing and coordination and removes some of the spam/boring fights...
cuz GW2 is irrelevant to the point. if mmo players would stop being the most incompetent gamers on the planet for a second, maybe they'll be able to handle classes and team comps that involve more than mindlessly spamming one rotation until everything dies
plus, I don't see why 5 strangers is even a part of your point. you realize the queue does try to get 1 of each class for this game, right? it only screws up when someone leaves/gets kicked and the queue starts throwing whoever happens to queue next into the group, and soon you have 5 rogues
5 Strangers leads to 5 people who play DPS builds because they have no beforehand knowledge of what the other is playing. GW2 is extremely relevant, it proved that the Holy Trinity works, and there is no reason to fix what's not broken.
5 Strangers leads to 5 people who play DPS builds because they have no beforehand knowledge of what the other is playing. GW2 is extremely relevant, it proved that the Holy Trinity works, and there is no reason to fix what's not broken.
...one crappy sequel that didn't work out is proof that something completely irrelevant to it works?
ok. I can certainly see your perspective now. I wouldn't be able to do anything else but spam one rotation for the rest of my life either if I had your methods of deduction
Comments
That game was called...wait for it...somethingHammer
I get it, I'm a minority, but I actually LIKE being the healer, the one that you know if you weren't there, this group would be done for. Any one can dps, it takes a real trooper to play a healer or a tank.
/2c
My remedy for this would be to eliminate healing altogether. Make each class independent, but complementary in such a way that it would still be advantageous to group; i.e., each class might have buffs that they couldn't use on themselves but could use on other classes. Your character would have a set # of HP's, and if you die, you die - the fights would be pure strategy and execution. If you barely make it through the fight, and the mob dies, then you win. Then you rest. Or whatever.
tl;dr - No OP I disagree, I think your holy trinity of MMO combat is archaic enough now to be boring, and unrealistic enough to be left behind in favor of a better system as soon as someone figures out how to make combat fun and challenging without requiring someone to stand there playing doctor while everyone else is fighting.
I don't really know what game you are talking about, but the game I feel approached healers the best was Vanguard.
Cleric
Melee Healer (2h Mace/hammer or 1h mace/hammer and shield)
Relies on melee attacks to build mana to cast heals
Buffs themselves so melee attacks heal the party or damage the mobs etc.
Relies on melee attacks to build another kind of resource for more powerful heals
Bloodmage
Ranged Healer/Nuker
Could link themselves to the tank, and then link themselves to the entire raid to divide damage among everyone (would ultimately deal like 500% more damage to heal through, but smaller amount of damage to each person rather then a single target, additionally if an AoE hit the raid then the raid would take extreme amounts of damage as it was multiplied off of each person)
Relied on Lifetaps to heal everyone, one lifetap would heal your defensive target from the damage dealt to the offensive target, another would heal you from your offensive target.
Disciple
Melee Healer/Subsidiary DPS'er (Fist Wrappings or Staff)
Monk style attacks using combinations of abilities to cast certain heals
Builds a secondary resource that allows them to cast direct heals
Vanguard made healing interesting, even to the point if a bloodmage lifetapped the wrong mob/boss...the lifetap would backfire and you would nuke yourself or the tank and heal the boss for massive amounts.
I'm with you there. I don't have to remind everyone on TS for how much I've just critted that mob only to make sure they know I'm useful somehow.
The real deal is when party memebers realise you are good without glaring ****ing number flying over whole your screen.
Trinity (or any other strict role distribution system, for that matter) allows for complexity. Specialized roles mean that there can be intricate, often difficult tasks to undertake for each archetype, that collaboration and synergy is required on many levels, etc. Tanks need to learn aggro management and careful positioning, and work with DPS classes on interrupts/snares, DPS in turn need to perform their primary task (dealing damage fast enough to beat enrage timers) while on a lookout for things that require their attention (CC, kiting, you name it), healers keep everyone alive and decide on resource management - the fun stems from the very fact that group works as a whole, helping each other out.
"Everyone is king" mentality pretty much means that everything needs to be dumbed down to a level where performing random stunts still works. Look at guild wars 2 - no trinity, practically nonexistent complexity, almost no resource management. You mash the buttons, roll out of harm's way and that's it. There is action, but it's about as fun as randomly rolling in beach sand - exciting at first, gets old in a flash. If you want to play action games - buy some fighting titles (Street Fighter comes to mind) or maybe a third person slasher like DMC/Dark Souls, but please, don't try to bring this to MMOs, the genre is NOT about that.
umm, I don't what dnd you're playing, but having played 2nd ed to 3.5........there was never a single point where cleric was a crucial class. honestly they weren't even remotely important. they're second rate tank/fighters with some buffs who completely annihilate undead and not much else
the dnd "holy trinity" was fighter, rogue, and mage. every other class was either an unrequired (though very helpful) support, or something between the functions of the holy trin and support
no...are you kidding me.......mmorpg holy trinity is the most mind numbingly simplistic gameplay ever. wow, tanks need to spam threat while dps spams dps and healer spams heal on whoever's low hp...so hard to understand. it's not like people haven't been doing the exact same thing for the past 15 years or anything
I actually feel nw is a good balance of styles between the old mmorpg feel of working together and the now popular action mmo style...which boils down to the whole party being complete morons and facetanking everything and dying while 1 or 2 players who aren't completely incompetent just solo/duo everything. it only takes 1 or 2 complete morons in nw to get the whole group massacred
Trinity gameplay doesn't have to be boring, it's all in how that role does what it does.
vindictus only had dps classes...and it was great for like a year. it died when they decided skill2win wasn't making enough money and added godmode pay2win gears
Because you liked the game doesn't mean it was good or worked well. WoW has the best raiding system, it's as simple as that. The trinity works.
And you do not seem to understand that nothing exists in isolation. WoW has massive synergy between all its gameplay and content. In other words, their whole class design AND content works together to support such a Holy Trinity.
Trying to introduce a true Holy Trinity randomly into an MMO, especially with the kind of content and other classes in NW, would be ridiculous. It would not be far off from trying to do the same to a game like Vindictus or Dragon Nest.
This game is based on D&D rules and it is very clear about that, even if some may not approve of the depth of the content that complements the class design.
This is NOT what a proper trinity-based MMO boss battle looks like, and had you played any one of them (EQ2, Rift and of course, WoW) you wouldn't be saying this.
Take, for example, an old fight from WoW:TBC, Reliquary of Souls. Or maybe the good ol' Mimiron. Or Twilight Ascendant fight, if not Sinestra, even. You won't last twenty seconds with your "spam this, spam that" approach - and those are just random examples of fights that a proper, tank-heal-dps based system can deliver.
The "push of all mobs off cliff" mechanic honestly ****s up a lot. It makes things so simplistic. It almost doesn't allow for a holy trinity. Maybe things will change in a raid environment where a single cleric hopefully won't outheal all incoming dmg on any squishy.
Lastly, I ****ing hate people who talk **** about systems they don't understand because bandwagoning is cool. For example, WoW arena had many, many problems. However, the skillcap was ****ing inmense. No one can deny that. Yet you have people saying WoW arena was about spamming ccs and mashing your keys. Most of these people also never got even close to gladiator or rank 1. Same concept with people saying WoW PvE was just tanking and spanking everything. Stop hating on WoW because you're a hipster. WoW did many things wrongs, it also got many things right.
You don't talk about things you don't know. A novel astrophysicist's opinion is not to be regarded as truth when talking about a matter not pertaining to astrophysics (obviously you should never blindly hold things as truths, but you get the point).
Class Assignments
Tanks
Phase 1: Follow the plan in the phase description, remembering to save your health for the enraged stages. DPS all the time.
Phase 2: If you are MT, you will be Spellreflect-ing his Deaden and building as much threat as you can.
Phase 3: Tank Essence of Anger, pointing it away from the raid, and use up your rage as fast as you can.
Rogues
Phase 1: Follow the plan in the phase description. You may have to save your health for the enraged stages so you can Evasion tank. DPS all the time.
Phase 2: Interrupt Spirit Shock, taking great care not to interrupt Deaden, and DPS.
Phase 3: DPS as much as possible.
Warlocks
Phase 1: Follow the plan in the phase description. You may have to save your health for the enraged stages if you have high stamina. DPS all the time.
Phase 2: DPS as much as possible and use felhunter if your raid decides to remove the Rune Shield that way.
Phase 3: DPS as much as possible.
Mages
Phase 1: Follow the plan in the phase description. DPS all the time.
Phase 2: DPS as much as possible and use Spellsteal if your raid decides to remove the Rune Shield that way.
Phase 3: DPS as much as possible.
Hunters
Phase 1: Follow the plan in the phase description. DPS all the time.
Phase 2/3: DPS as much as possible. Using Misdirection is advised on phases 2 and 3 so that tanks can get extra threat (thus allowing more DPS).
Healers
Phase 1: Follow the plan in the phase description. DPS all the time. Dispel Soul Drain.
Phase 2: Assigned in two different groups: first one being the Main Tank and melee DPS and the second being the ranged group. Shamans prove to be good at this with Chain Heal.
Phase 3: Again an intensive healing fight where you need to assign healers to both melee and tank as well as the ranged DPS players.
.....well, guess this is a guide to teach you how to not last twenty seconds then. dps all the time is so unspammy
I mean yes, I'm aware the coordinating the team and getting into position prior to initiating everyone's spamfest is integral to the raid's success, but that doesn't really change the actual fight from being anything besides drumming a dps/threat/heal rotation with little to no thought or regard to anything happening on screen
Give me an example of raiding that was more complicated/difficult than in WoW.
Please tell me you're kidding (or rather, failing at it) because if not, you just made a huge fool out of yourself.
It just so happens that what you decided to quote from the Reliquary fight has a critical line "Follow the plan in the phase description.", and phase description takes about 80% of the text there.
...you mean the plan of tank at point A until fixated, then move to point B to not get slaughtered?
...................wait, is this why 99% of nw players don't understand the concept of not standing in red circles when they're almost dead....
http://vindictus.nexon.net/Community/#%2Fshowthread.php%3F127455-Colru-Shenanigans-v3
I've been over the moon for GW2 and enjoying NW's action combat because I did spend time on Reliquary of Souls (and I was a rogue--all I had to do was organize a kick rotation). After four years of participation in a raiding guild, I gladly eschew the "hard core," trinity style jerk fests of WoW and its ilk.
As interesting as Gauntlegrym looks, I probably won't ever run it because I don't want to commit to a guild or raid schedule ever again. But hey, it's fine if you do. Knock yourself out! I'm glad Cryptic is adding something to appease the raiding crowd.
Just know that there are a wide range of players here with all sorts of different experiences. I'm all about the casual play these days (I'm totes carebear, <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up your hardcores--trolololol). I love the idea of being able to log in, queue up for a PuG dungeon, and finish said dungeon in 45 minutes. That is the bee's knees for me, son. I'd be surprised if I'm in the minority these days.
no. teamwork is necessary. play more games besides mmos and you'll learn that there are many other team synergies other than tank/heal/dps
the only evil intrinsic to classic tank/dps/heal is that everyone only does 1 role. when you have a 32 player raid and look at the big picture? yeah, it'll look complicated. when you're an actual single player and all you do is spam your rotation to fulfill your one function in that team of 32? that's boring as **** to play
cuz GW2 is irrelevant to the point. if mmo players would stop being the most incompetent gamers on the planet for a second, maybe they'll be able to handle classes and team comps that involve more than mindlessly spamming one rotation until everything dies
plus, I don't see why 5 strangers is even a part of your point. you realize the queue does try to get 1 of each class for this game, right? it only screws up when someone leaves/gets kicked and the queue starts throwing whoever happens to queue next into the group, and soon you have 5 rogues
I agree there NEEDS to be more mechanics in the boss fights and each player NEEDS to play some type of crucial role, but when you force players into the heal/tank/dps strategy it gets really boring really fast.
What they need to do is dimish the roles a little. Make the tank = absorb damage for the rest of the team. Give the healer less single target/more AoE heals so each player is forced to watch their own HP realizing that they cant get brought back to 100% in a second. I think Neverwinter does SOME of this right...
Where it fails is the bad boss mechanics that just spawn add after add. There is no real benefit to a GF besides just DPS.
What Bosses NEED to do is have mechanics built in them. I, for one, am a big fan of environmental mechanics because they 1) dont require any specific build/class etc and 2) requires the player to actually have skill/timing/coordination.
I would love to see how traps build in the game that actually matter. I would love to see less adds and more environmental damagers for people that know how/when to use them. A pillar to knock over and AoE stun mobs it hits + some damage. A stalagtite on the roof of a cave a ranged DPS needs to hit to to damage/stun/knock down mobs. You can add things LIKE this to every fight.
Also things like trap doors on boss fights that remove a player temporarily from the fight... If you are observant you can avoid it, if you are bad, it hurts your team and slows the fight down...
Mechanics like a net the boss can throw (onto a "red" area) that disables you for 10 seconds etc... Things LIKE that make the boss fights fun/challenging/exciting and its not ALL about the tank/spank and spam...
Make it have ques or tells that tell you to stop DPSing and start avoiding/interacting/timing things... You could even add some mechanic like pulling a boss ONTO a trap that will the stun/damage him, or... instead of having a CW focus on CCing ALL the mobs bosses spawn, take it to the extreme, throw TONS of adds at you but give an environmental way of handling the adds, like pulling THEM onto a trap. This still takes skill/timing and coordination and removes some of the spam/boring fights...
Just a thought...
5 Strangers leads to 5 people who play DPS builds because they have no beforehand knowledge of what the other is playing. GW2 is extremely relevant, it proved that the Holy Trinity works, and there is no reason to fix what's not broken.
...one crappy sequel that didn't work out is proof that something completely irrelevant to it works?
ok. I can certainly see your perspective now. I wouldn't be able to do anything else but spam one rotation for the rest of my life either if I had your methods of deduction