It is totally like 4th edition DnD. I used to play DnD stopped after 4.0 edition cause i hated it. I might start playing 3.5 edition again with some people from work. What WOTC did was take a great pen paper game 3.5 and completely dumbed it down. They messed it up so bad they are as we speak making 5.0 rules right now. Which really is 4.0 rules with little more detail added. It will never be as good as 3.5 edition. I do have access to the beta rules for 5.0 edition
So i am also wondering will this game get an update to the new rules when they are launched from wotc?
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gdante7111111Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 227Arc User
edited June 2013
turn based is garbage so no dont change it to turn based, they wont change it to turn based. The only problem with this is bosses are almost the same, and not everyone can dodge like in raiderz. If they combined raiderz with this wooow, that is goood.
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warfluxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
turn based is garbage so no dont change it to turn based, they wont change it to turn based. The only problem with this is bosses are almost the same, and not everyone can dodge like in raiderz. If they combined raiderz with this wooow, that is goood.
I wouldn't call turn based garbage. Have you every tried atlantica online? It is pretty nice the way they implemented it and that game is old. It could be improved on a lot even.
It is totally like 4th edition DnD. I used to play DnD stopped after 4.0 edition cause i hated it. I might start playing 3.5 edition again with some people from work. What WOTC did was take a great pen paper game 3.5 and completely dumbed it down. They messed it up so bad they are as we speak making 5.0 rules right now. Which really is 4.0 rules with little more detail added. It will never be as good as 3.5 edition. I do have access to the beta rules for 5.0 edition
So i am also wondering will this game get an update to the new rules when they are launched from wotc?
I don't think that it is going to happen.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"The harder the game, the better."
I personally preferred d&d pre-fourth edition loved original and 1st edition through 3rd. Most people I knew who played it hardcore quit at 4th and continued playing D&D and AD&D through 3rd.
^ This 100% ^
I've played most of those D&D computer/and console games mentioned previously (also P&P since 2nd edition in late 80's early 90's. I think 3rd edition is still my favorite) and I did get a nice nostalgic D&D feel from them. Now maybe it is just the 4th edition rules but this game "feels" like it has strayed soo far away from what a D&D experience is supposed to be that it actually turns me away from playing. I wonder what Mr. Gygax would have to say about the current state of his legacy.
...and now let the "this isn't really a D&D game" comments commence...again.
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warfluxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
I haven't really seen any mmorpg with good depth so I don't expect that much from them. If someone could make an mmorpg that actually captured the depth of something like a MUD it would probably kill every single mmo out there. But I was under no delusion that this would even come close to something like that.
It is totally like 4th edition DnD. I used to play DnD stopped after 4.0 edition cause i hated it. I might start playing 3.5 edition again with some people from work. What WOTC did was take a great pen paper game 3.5 and completely dumbed it down. They messed it up so bad they are as we speak making 5.0 rules right now. Which really is 4.0 rules with little more detail added. It will never be as good as 3.5 edition. I do have access to the beta rules for 5.0 edition
So i am also wondering will this game get an update to the new rules when they are launched from wotc?
You might want to give Pathfinder (generally regarded as D&D 3.75) a shot. They fixed some of the major issues that 3.5 had (although not all).
I think its very unlikely that this game will change to 5th edition due to licensing issues. There might be scope to lean it towards 5th ed, just as 4th Ed elements are being introduced into DDO.
#100!!! ^^
Playing NW and NWN2 at the moment to satisfy the lack of d&d content. ^^
About DDO... meh.
Same, I was so disappointed in this, I went back to NWN2 to get my D&D fix. Once I get through all the official expansions I'm going to try some of the downloadable modules (see, module is used correctly in this instance, PWE).
Same, I was so disappointed in this, I went back to NWN2 to get my D&D fix. Once I get through all the official expansions I'm going to try some of the downloadable modules (see, module is used correctly in this instance, PWE).
The only thing that bugs me about NWN2 are the spell animations, they could have done a better job with them. Anyways, the game is a blast, I'm also going to play downloadable modules when I'm done with all the campaigns.
Let's hope that in the future someone creates a NWN3. ^^
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"The harder the game, the better."
I've played most of those D&D computer/and console games mentioned previously (also P&P since 2nd edition in late 80's early 90's. I think 3rd edition is still my favorite) and I did get a nice nostalgic D&D feel from them. Now maybe it is just the 4th edition rules but this game "feels" like it has strayed soo far away from what a D&D experience is supposed to be that it actually turns me away from playing. I wonder what Mr. Gygax would have to say about the current state of his legacy.
...and now let the "this isn't really a D&D game" comments commence...again.
2nd ed to 3 1/2 were the golden years for me. Thats when i thought the core rules were at there best. It is sad to see what has evolved with 4e. It just seems to leave a lousy taste in my mouth that i dont think will ever go away.:( Having said that gotta log in and get some **** done. :cool:
even wotc realized after 4e flopped so bad that they had totally messed up. 5e is almost like a partial rollback that 4e can be skipped which is almost as good as tossing it in the garbage as it should be.
The only thing that bugs me about NWN2 are the spell animations, they could have done a better job with them. Anyways, the game is a blast, I'm also going to play downloadable modules when I'm done with all the campaigns.
Let's hope that in the future someone creates a NWN3. ^^
The sad thing is, when this was first announced, it was rumored to be NWN3... as Atari was the publisher for those games, and owned Cryptic, but then sold Cryptic to PWE when they ran into financial difficulties in 2010ish (right after STO came out). So this was what NWN3 eventually became. That's part of what makes this so difficult to deal with.
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malkavierMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So you never read the advertisements? "A rich D&D experience" is one of the talking points. It fell short of that, unless 4e really took D&D backwards 20 years or so? Is it part of the rules in 4e that only fighters can see secret doors? That only NPCs use bows? (this may indeed be fixed at some point, hopefully soon)That there are no skill checks for disabling traps? That there are no locked doors that need picking? Note that all of these could easily be incorporated into an MMO, and have been, and have also been incorporated into online games such as NWN. There are Bluff checks, there are Diplo checks, none of which are even remotely possible here. This is part of the "rich D&D experience" that was used to draw people here, and which wasn't delivered. Now, it's an MMOARPG that gets it's essentially PvE elements nerfed to allow for PvP, disregarding it's roots, or, rather, what was promised to be it's roots in it's advertisements.
Locked doors that need picked, in this game, require Dungeoneering or Dungeoneering Kits. Disarming traps, sometimes do take more than one attempt to "disarm", but the action itself is automatically initiated once a TR hits that shiny F button.
How Cryptic trolls the entire NWO playerbase: 9200 GS listed for CN, implying anyone who needs more has no skill.
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malkavierMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
In my opinion, none of those things will make this game any closer to DnD.
The first, as you sort of mentioned, we already have a cut down version - Dungeoneering/Nature/Arcane/Religion skills. You could argue that the crafting system adds further skills in order to make items, and realistically involves having other people doing the main work on them (Because our characters are Adventurers, and we're too busy to stay in town for weeks and months crafting items ourselves). Also, TRs can spot and disable traps, maybe they could expand on that and add locked chests to dungeons (which can be opened either by TRs or by Thief Kits). But what other use would skills have? Got any suggestions?
Alignments - our characters can follow deities who represent the Good and Neutral (or Unaligned) alignments, which could be argued to be a stand in for an actual alignment system. Anyway, IMHO, alignments are totally useless/irrelevant in an MMORPG (unless it's SWTOR, but that system has its own problems). Most people playing an MMORPG probably couldn't give a piece of excrement about alignments and following them, because most people playing MMORPGs are not even the least bit interested in actual role playing*.
(Remember also that the Alignment system in 4th Edition is a cut down system consisting only of LG, G, Unaligned, E, and CE anyway. So half the alignments are already represented in this game by way of gods.)
Paragon Paths and Classes. They've already said that more of these are slated for introduction at some point in the future, starting with probably Archer Ranger in or around Module One. It isn't like they can click their fingers and incorporate more instantly without enough development/lead time.
* Please note that the RPG part of the MMORPG acronym has a totally different meaning to the RPG in Pencil and Paper RPGs. In the former, RPG means your character has levels (or skills) and can improve over time with a certain amount of customisation (gear, a choice of feats and powers). In the latter RPG means that you take on the role of your character within the context of an interactive story/game, as narrated and refereed by a Dungeon Master. There are elements of progression and customisation from a stat and gear point of view, but the main point of a pencil and paper RPG is the role and playing that role in the context of the game. (For example: I ran Dungeons and Dragons last Saturday for my group, and there was like two combats in the entire game that came right near the end of the day. The rest of the day was all dedicated to role playing.)
It won't be an archer ranger. It's going to be a dual-wield melee ranger. Basically to cater to the founders who bought HotN packs so they can make their Drizzt clones. So we'll have two melee tanks (GF maintank/GWF offtank), two melee dps (TR/Ranger), 1 healer (Kill yourself now if you specced DPS as a DC), and 2 caster/ranged dps when they add the Warlock to sit on the back line with the CW.
How Cryptic trolls the entire NWO playerbase: 9200 GS listed for CN, implying anyone who needs more has no skill.
It won't be an archer ranger. It's going to be a dual-wield melee ranger. Basically to cater to the founders who bought HotN packs so they can make their Drizzt clones. So we'll have two melee tanks (GF maintank/GWF offtank), two melee dps (TR/Ranger), 1 healer (Kill yourself now if you specced DPS as a DC), and 2 caster/ranged dps when they add the Warlock to sit on the back line with the CW.
Everything I've read has indicated that it will be an Archer Ranger. I don't think either of us will really know for sure until closer to when it is released. I also believe that Ranger and Warlock are not the last or only classes they'll add.
Besides, the lack of a ranger class hasn't stopped people naming their drow Drizzt Do'Urden (or variations). (My drow is a Control Wizard, and while I am planning to make my ranger a drow, it won't be because of Drizzt.)
It won't be an archer ranger. It's going to be a dual-wield melee ranger. Basically to cater to the founders who bought HotN packs so they can make their Drizzt clones. So we'll have two melee tanks (GF maintank/GWF offtank), two melee dps (TR/Ranger), 1 healer (Kill yourself now if you specced DPS as a DC), and 2 caster/ranged dps when they add the Warlock to sit on the back line with the CW.
What's the point of quoting to argue about the irrelevant part of the post?. ^^
Now, back to topic; multi-classing, in d&d4e it was revamped but still viable in a different way (cross-classing feats and then multi-class paragon path), this is another thing that I miss in NW version.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"The harder the game, the better."
Do some of you really know what D&D is? I doubt it?
Not enough skill checks... At one time D&D had hardly any skill checks because there were hardly any skills. Through 1st edition, it was pretty much thieves and others with thief like abilities.
No diplomacy or intimidation checks... At one time, you had to role-play out your attempts at diplomacy and intimidation, and only met with success when did so well-enough in the DMs view.
Not enough classes and races... At one time, you had even less classes for humans to select from, and demihumans were a class in themselves.
D&D has never been about the rule set, as D&D has gone through many rule sets, and has always remained D&D through those transitions, because D&D isn't about the rules. AD&D, which is where D&D really caught on, had less rules than most of the versions.
D&D can't be tied to any rule set, as the rule sets by which it has gone have varied incredibly over some of the editions. This one in Neverwinter is as valid a D&D rule set as any other. That really is neither here nor there anyway.
What made D&D what it is, is the role-play experiences and stories shared by people, mostly in pnp games, that made it, especially back in the days of Chainmail, D&D Basic, and AD&D, unlike anything that anyone had experienced before.
It's not the D&D game that did those things, or the game mechanics. It was the DMs and players, crafting their own stories together through RP interaction with each other that made D&D what is was, and made it endure to this day.
You're not going to find D&D here, or in any other online game, in the pure sense.
However, this game gives more tools than most of the current MMORPG offerings to try to recreate what makes D&D so special. Foundry can be used as a tool by guilds to tell their own collective, customized stories. In my view, that makes this MMORPG more D&D than most others out there. Being wrapped up in a Forgotten Realms setting is just frosting on the cake for those that like that particular one.
I don't think that more DnD rules will make this game better. It's just another F2P MMO of kill X amount of X and instance runs. Many of us have played similar MMOs in the past and it's just no longer entertaining. DnD is all about story telling, interesting NPCs, and character customization, something MMOs see to forget about. Quests here are pretty standard and the foundry is just more of the same and on a side note, rolling on unidentified items is silly. I miss the days when you made your own adventure by exploring and the random encounters I had with players and enemies was much more interesting than any quest I was on. Now F2P MMOs are all about buying your way to the top and that ultimately makes no reason to do anything ever if you have the money.
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warfluxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I don't think that more DnD rules will make this game better. It's just another F2P MMO of kill X amount of X and instance runs.
Yeah. The dungeons are so boring. Kill 50 mobs for no reward then kill some boss for maybe 1 good drop. Not sure how dnd rules will fix that. I understand the story telling but even with that the dungeons are mind numbing and boring. Just putting a story in there isn't going to completely fix it either. NPCs not only need to be interesting but the dungeons need to be too.
I agree. I want a D&D where a greatsword hits for D12 damage and a stupid little dagger, when used in full daylight in front of your opponent without any sort of tricks or stealth, does D4 damage.
But no, instead we have Great Wifflebat Fighters and "Trickster" Rogues who need no tricks to make that dagger hit like a Vorpal sword.
Sadly, not gonna happen. "whatever this is" is the Cryptic Engine, and any game that they make with it is going to play a whole lot like Star Trek and Champions.
I agree. I want a D&D where a greatsword hits for D12 damage and a stupid little dagger, when used in full daylight in front of your opponent without any sort of tricks or stealth, does D4 damage.
But no, instead we have Great Wifflebat Fighters and "Trickster" Rogues who need no tricks to make that dagger hit like a Vorpal sword.
Sadly, not gonna happen. "whatever this is" is the Cryptic Engine, and any game that they make with it is going to play a whole lot like Star Trek and Champions.
You mean, make those two daggers hit like a vorpal sword. And that's after the rogue has use tricks and stealth to close the distance, silence you, weaken your defenses, etc.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
I don't think anyone will argue that it's fun and very action-based to keep things exciting. I think the merger of the engine and 4th edition works. Is it perfect? No. But it's fun and I can deal with it.
I do agree we need more skills to offer ways to interact with the environment of the game and there are some great examples in the game now of what I mean, like thievery disarming traps on top of farming nodes, Dungeoneering finding secret doors, and Religion allowing praying for a buffs. I'd like to see other skills get added in and used for more than just crafting. Heck, I like to see it be able to be leveled to add bonuses to effect checks (like say leader ship at level 10 giving a +10 resist to control effects), anything to offer a more immersive experience.
Which is what I think is what we are seriously missing from the game.
For a D&D game, there is absolutely no immersion that I am feeling. The quests are generic (kill 10 rats anyone) and lore is treated like an Easter egg hunt than a tool to help the adventurers. It's great to learn the back story of a villain...if it helps you a) kill the villain by revealing a weakness (how cool would it be for a boss mob like the mad dragon, to have a weakness revealed like if it is hit in the throat when it's getting ready to use it's breath that allows for more damage? Also said weakness is only exploitable if you actually GOT the lore?), b) offers a path to redeeming the villain and possibly making it an ally, and/or c) offers insight into a worse threat. The lore we got now is mainly stuff we'd find in a library and isn't offering flavor. I mean seriously, I'm finding the general lore about Kelemvor in a crypt? I should be finding burial rites or something that offers more insight that a copy of what's in the campaign books. On that subject, languages anyone? I'd love to find lore written in Elven for example that requires you to be an Elf to read it or learn Elven to read it.
Also who's idea was it to put mounts in a closed world game? I mean that's like being able to drive a hotrod in a parking garage. I do hope that means eventually there will be open world areas otherwise I have to wonder.
I could go on for hours on end about this but I'll stop at what I got now. I enjoy the game and I see the potential but like others have said, it's following the tried and true method (an MMO with a dash of story) than daring to bring an excellent game that promotes roleplaying (scary I know considering it's a D&D game) by offering mechanics that make you more than a gearscore (unbelievable this was brought in before the actual roleplaying), but a valuable member of anyone's team.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2013
Please make a thread which focuses on which aspects of D&D you would like to be expanded rather than a broad claim.
Comments
So i am also wondering will this game get an update to the new rules when they are launched from wotc?
I wouldn't call turn based garbage. Have you every tried atlantica online? It is pretty nice the way they implemented it and that game is old. It could be improved on a lot even.
I don't think that it is going to happen.
"The harder the game, the better."
^ This 100% ^
I've played most of those D&D computer/and console games mentioned previously (also P&P since 2nd edition in late 80's early 90's. I think 3rd edition is still my favorite) and I did get a nice nostalgic D&D feel from them. Now maybe it is just the 4th edition rules but this game "feels" like it has strayed soo far away from what a D&D experience is supposed to be that it actually turns me away from playing. I wonder what Mr. Gygax would have to say about the current state of his legacy.
...and now let the "this isn't really a D&D game" comments commence...again.
I think its very unlikely that this game will change to 5th edition due to licensing issues. There might be scope to lean it towards 5th ed, just as 4th Ed elements are being introduced into DDO.
wow ... you simply forget the Dungeons & Dragons part in this game title isn't it
for the storyline part, its really disappointing that neverwinter as D&D game have lesser main storyline than Dragon Nest, same action based game.
Playing NW and NWN2 at the moment to satisfy the lack of d&d content. ^^
About DDO... meh.
"The harder the game, the better."
Same, I was so disappointed in this, I went back to NWN2 to get my D&D fix. Once I get through all the official expansions I'm going to try some of the downloadable modules (see, module is used correctly in this instance, PWE).
The only thing that bugs me about NWN2 are the spell animations, they could have done a better job with them. Anyways, the game is a blast, I'm also going to play downloadable modules when I'm done with all the campaigns.
Let's hope that in the future someone creates a NWN3. ^^
"The harder the game, the better."
2nd ed to 3 1/2 were the golden years for me. Thats when i thought the core rules were at there best. It is sad to see what has evolved with 4e. It just seems to leave a lousy taste in my mouth that i dont think will ever go away.:( Having said that gotta log in and get some **** done. :cool:
The sad thing is, when this was first announced, it was rumored to be NWN3... as Atari was the publisher for those games, and owned Cryptic, but then sold Cryptic to PWE when they ran into financial difficulties in 2010ish (right after STO came out). So this was what NWN3 eventually became. That's part of what makes this so difficult to deal with.
Locked doors that need picked, in this game, require Dungeoneering or Dungeoneering Kits. Disarming traps, sometimes do take more than one attempt to "disarm", but the action itself is automatically initiated once a TR hits that shiny F button.
It won't be an archer ranger. It's going to be a dual-wield melee ranger. Basically to cater to the founders who bought HotN packs so they can make their Drizzt clones. So we'll have two melee tanks (GF maintank/GWF offtank), two melee dps (TR/Ranger), 1 healer (Kill yourself now if you specced DPS as a DC), and 2 caster/ranged dps when they add the Warlock to sit on the back line with the CW.
Everything I've read has indicated that it will be an Archer Ranger. I don't think either of us will really know for sure until closer to when it is released. I also believe that Ranger and Warlock are not the last or only classes they'll add.
Besides, the lack of a ranger class hasn't stopped people naming their drow Drizzt Do'Urden (or variations). (My drow is a Control Wizard, and while I am planning to make my ranger a drow, it won't be because of Drizzt.)
What's the point of quoting to argue about the irrelevant part of the post?. ^^
******************************************************************************************
Now, back to topic; multi-classing, in d&d4e it was revamped but still viable in a different way (cross-classing feats and then multi-class paragon path), this is another thing that I miss in NW version.
"The harder the game, the better."
It's not D&D. Why? According to who?
Do some of you really know what D&D is? I doubt it?
Not enough skill checks... At one time D&D had hardly any skill checks because there were hardly any skills. Through 1st edition, it was pretty much thieves and others with thief like abilities.
No diplomacy or intimidation checks... At one time, you had to role-play out your attempts at diplomacy and intimidation, and only met with success when did so well-enough in the DMs view.
Not enough classes and races... At one time, you had even less classes for humans to select from, and demihumans were a class in themselves.
D&D has never been about the rule set, as D&D has gone through many rule sets, and has always remained D&D through those transitions, because D&D isn't about the rules. AD&D, which is where D&D really caught on, had less rules than most of the versions.
D&D can't be tied to any rule set, as the rule sets by which it has gone have varied incredibly over some of the editions. This one in Neverwinter is as valid a D&D rule set as any other. That really is neither here nor there anyway.
What made D&D what it is, is the role-play experiences and stories shared by people, mostly in pnp games, that made it, especially back in the days of Chainmail, D&D Basic, and AD&D, unlike anything that anyone had experienced before.
It's not the D&D game that did those things, or the game mechanics. It was the DMs and players, crafting their own stories together through RP interaction with each other that made D&D what is was, and made it endure to this day.
You're not going to find D&D here, or in any other online game, in the pure sense.
However, this game gives more tools than most of the current MMORPG offerings to try to recreate what makes D&D so special. Foundry can be used as a tool by guilds to tell their own collective, customized stories. In my view, that makes this MMORPG more D&D than most others out there. Being wrapped up in a Forgotten Realms setting is just frosting on the cake for those that like that particular one.
Yeah. The dungeons are so boring. Kill 50 mobs for no reward then kill some boss for maybe 1 good drop. Not sure how dnd rules will fix that. I understand the story telling but even with that the dungeons are mind numbing and boring. Just putting a story in there isn't going to completely fix it either. NPCs not only need to be interesting but the dungeons need to be too.
qft!
567890
NW-DMIME87F5
Awaiting a serious response from the developers on the abuse of the review system by other authors.
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But no, instead we have Great Wifflebat Fighters and "Trickster" Rogues who need no tricks to make that dagger hit like a Vorpal sword.
Sadly, not gonna happen. "whatever this is" is the Cryptic Engine, and any game that they make with it is going to play a whole lot like Star Trek and Champions.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
You mean, make those two daggers hit like a vorpal sword. And that's after the rogue has use tricks and stealth to close the distance, silence you, weaken your defenses, etc.
I don't think anyone will argue that it's fun and very action-based to keep things exciting. I think the merger of the engine and 4th edition works. Is it perfect? No. But it's fun and I can deal with it.
I do agree we need more skills to offer ways to interact with the environment of the game and there are some great examples in the game now of what I mean, like thievery disarming traps on top of farming nodes, Dungeoneering finding secret doors, and Religion allowing praying for a buffs. I'd like to see other skills get added in and used for more than just crafting. Heck, I like to see it be able to be leveled to add bonuses to effect checks (like say leader ship at level 10 giving a +10 resist to control effects), anything to offer a more immersive experience.
Which is what I think is what we are seriously missing from the game.
For a D&D game, there is absolutely no immersion that I am feeling. The quests are generic (kill 10 rats anyone) and lore is treated like an Easter egg hunt than a tool to help the adventurers. It's great to learn the back story of a villain...if it helps you a) kill the villain by revealing a weakness (how cool would it be for a boss mob like the mad dragon, to have a weakness revealed like if it is hit in the throat when it's getting ready to use it's breath that allows for more damage? Also said weakness is only exploitable if you actually GOT the lore?), b) offers a path to redeeming the villain and possibly making it an ally, and/or c) offers insight into a worse threat. The lore we got now is mainly stuff we'd find in a library and isn't offering flavor. I mean seriously, I'm finding the general lore about Kelemvor in a crypt? I should be finding burial rites or something that offers more insight that a copy of what's in the campaign books. On that subject, languages anyone? I'd love to find lore written in Elven for example that requires you to be an Elf to read it or learn Elven to read it.
Also who's idea was it to put mounts in a closed world game? I mean that's like being able to drive a hotrod in a parking garage. I do hope that means eventually there will be open world areas otherwise I have to wonder.
I could go on for hours on end about this but I'll stop at what I got now. I enjoy the game and I see the potential but like others have said, it's following the tried and true method (an MMO with a dash of story) than daring to bring an excellent game that promotes roleplaying (scary I know considering it's a D&D game) by offering mechanics that make you more than a gearscore (unbelievable this was brought in before the actual roleplaying), but a valuable member of anyone's team.