It seems there is some confusion about the Deadly Momentum and Duelist's Flurry "changes". A lot of this I can attribute to the people that write the patch notes not speaking English well, or simply not understanding the change. I will try to clarify these things. The actual implementation of the bleed on the test server (IE it being broken) is not what I am going to explain, just the problem they meant they were fixing.
-Duelist's Flurry: Credit for the bleed damage is now properly attributed if multiple Rogues apply stacks.
-Duelist's Flurry: Up to 10 stacks of the bleed effect can be applied to a single enemy regardless of how many Rogues applied them.
This is not saying only one rogue can have stacks. This is a badly worded way of saying that bleeds will no longer add stacks from 2 rogues together to make a 20 stack. Now each rogue *should* be able to make their own 10 stack, and receive appropriate credit for their bleed damage. The wording they used is misleading, but they are not in fact only allowing 1 rogue to use Duelist's Flurry.
-Feat: Deadly Momentum: The Critical Severity buff from this feat has been reduced to match the tooltip.
This again is wrongly worded. The problem was that there was a bug with Deadly Momentum and the armor pen feats that caused weird numbers to show up in the character sheet. The character sheet was reflecting 1-5 stacks of 15% crit severity per stack. So basically the character sheet was showing a 75% bonus at 5 stacks instead of the intended 15%. You were never actually getting 75%, you got the 15%. This was only a UI error. YOU DID NOT GET NERFED. Just your character sheet now reads these two feat buffs appropriately.
PS. If you want to see proof of this you can spec into the top tree and see that you can get several billion armor penetration if you kill an AoE pack. I haven't explicitly tested it myself, but I used this feat set while leveling and I am pretty sure the mobs still had damage resistance. So you did not actually receive 100 billion armor pen.
Oh... Ok - Seems like mostly A PVP thing then. Might even be a buff because of the changes to power. The 60% reduction to SE will hurt but I can take it in stride. Thank you so much for clarifying solsol1337 and gravethought for double checking. The bleed bug is awful but not crippling.
I mostly use Lurkers Assault, so I don't really care about SE. The *overall* damage of SE is not that spectacular and while you may OHKO one guy I am wrecking havoc on several people at once. I also enjoy how absolutely nobody is paying any attention at all to the "power now makes things die better" and just focuses on SE. Let's not rationalize that SE was maybe over-performing and needed to be toned down given the other buff we just got. That might be a little TOO logical.
I secretly hate Duelist's Flurry as it is absolutely counter to how I enjoy playing but so currently overpowered that I can't justify not having it. So yeah, I'm actually kind of glad it's getting nerfed.
My interest in this game is actually being restored. TR was so keyboard-smashingly-derp and GWF was getting annoying in that I had to be absolutely perfect to be competitive. Maybe that won't be the case so much anymore. Or maybe I'll just go back to GW2 where my rogue feels like he has an intelligence attribute.
This is the most significant part that people seems to be missing. This is a huge nerf, at least 25% less damage overall on bosses.
Let me reiterate that. This part alone will reduce TR dps on bosses by at least 25%.
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craftymangMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 26Arc User
Well, as long as i can kill targets at 60-50% with it, im fine, its pretty much the only decent way to kill a astral shield cleric. Dont know how it will be after Astral Shield changes though
Look at this guy, he just wants hit 1-shot easy mode skill, guys why did PWE have to take that away from him????
Did more testing and Deadly Momentum does appear to currently give 75%, not the intended 15%. So ya, between our bleed dps being cut in half, and us losing basically 60% crit severity, PVE rogue basically got declawed. May as well just play naked in pve (on Preview/ Live servers) until they change these things back. Sorry for the misinformation previously.
So basically, a 60% reduction in crit severity + 50% less DF dmg means CWs will top the damage ranks in both AoE and single target DPS. What is the point of a rogue class then? Well played whiners of PvP, you just ruined a perfectly good class. Might have to start running 4 CWs and a Cleric post patch.
Ok - so it is a major hit to PvE. I didn't notice the slower bleed, but yes that will be major. That plus the crit severity will probably mean around A 30 -40% decrease in DPS... maybe more.
...So who's waiting for Ranger to come out? Lol...
I see people say TR became useless in pve.Is duelist flurist the only way to do dmg?They buffed our power stat enough so you can try alternative ways like Scoundrel tree and Sly flourish.
anothersorrow, Duelist flurry isnt the only way to do dmg but it is the main source of damage for rogues in PvE and contributes to most boss damage during current T2 dungeons. No enounters can match DF's damage at the moment and I doubt they will even post nerf to DF and buff to encounters.
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kaladin32Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Did more testing and Deadly Momentum does appear to currently give 75%, not the intended 15%. So ya, between our bleed dps being cut in half, and us losing basically 60% crit severity, PVE rogue basically got declawed. May as well just play naked in pve (on Preview/ Live servers) until they change these things back. Sorry for the misinformation previously.
The highest bleed tick I've seen on live during a dungeon (so other class debuffs/buffs may have had an affect) was around 20k/tick (only lasted like the first 4 ticks). Never did have a 4pc Shadow Weave CW I consistently grouped with.
Just now I was able to get a 15k/tick bleed going on the dummies (so just me no other buffs/debuffs). Which is about equal too, if not higher than my average bleed ticks on live. Never was one that was good at getting "all the stars to align" consistently to get the best bleed tick going all the time. Granted it ticks twice as slow compared to live which is a big change in of itself, this is more in response to the crit severity portion, you think losing 60% would mean I wouldn't be getting close to what I got on live, let alone beating the average. Though could have to do with dummies having no armor, since the live numbers are from dungeon runs.
If only the dummies didn't "die" so easily and the server wouldn't keep booting me for some patcher update that never works. Anyway no hard numbers to throw out, just a little observation I just did.
Keep in mind also that you may not have had 5x crit severity before your 10th bleed stack went up on either of those numbers, so you do not necessarily even have the 75% CS buff at the point where your bleed stops being affected by it.
60% in numbers generally assuming 75%cs base without shadow weaver means:
90%CS with 5 stacks on test server, 150%CS on live.
1.9/2.5 = 76% damage = 24% damage loss on crits.
(1 + (0.3 * 0.9 ) ) / ( 1 + ( 0.3 * 1.5 ) ) = 1.27 / 1.45 = 87.6% = 12.4% loss on critically overrun normals and
0.76 * 0.876 = 66.6% = 33.3% damage loss on critically overrun crits.
So the 15k bleed would have been 15* 3/2 = 22.5k bleed on live server. Now if we consider that bleed ticks half the frequency it ticks on live, means that maximum bleed damage is doing only 1/3 of the maximum damage it is doing currently. Although if this was a bleed damage done without lurkers + stealth, then they have definitely increased the damage / scaling on bleed.
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kaladin32Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
60% in numbers generally assuming 75%cs base without shadow weaver means:
90%CS with 5 stacks on test server, 150%CS on live.
1.9/2.5 = 76% damage = 24% damage loss on crits.
(1 + (0.3 * 0.9 ) ) / ( 1 + ( 0.3 * 1.5 ) ) = 1.27 / 1.45 = 87.6% = 12.4% loss on critically overrun normals and
0.76 * 0.876 = 66.6% = 33.3% damage loss on critically overrun crits.
So the 15k bleed would have been 15* 3/2 = 22.5k bleed on live server. Now if we consider that bleed ticks half the frequency it ticks on live, means that maximum bleed damage is doing only 1/3 of the maximum damage it is doing currently. Although if this was a bleed damage done without lurkers + stealth, then they have definitely increased the damage / scaling on bleed.
I solo and am not a pro by any means. What I don't like about DF is its slow to get off in PVE when alone. SE I can live with the nerf..
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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samuraikingsMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
You guys are wasting your time arguing 2 different things. Some of you are arguing from PvE perspectives, and some from PvP. These things should be balanced SEPARATELY and not together.
In PvP we all know SE was too strong(not that Ice Knife isn't). DF was also pretty strong in PvP when you used it on that poor GF holding up his shield, or the little CW cowering in their circle. The problem is, these things were fine in PvE and needed.
In PvE I used SE to finish off an Erineyes before it healed. my DF is my main source of DMG. If the DF nerf was to A. make it so you only want 1 rogue in a party, and/or B. to lower my DMG where I only do 10-20% more than the GWF and CW, I am fine with that. The issue is, it seems to not be the case. I will reserve judgement until the patch is out, but it seems like our DMG will drop a good 40% across the board.
In PvE, unless I am playing like a mentally challenged rhinoceros, I shouldn't be beaten by a tankier GWF, or a CW that has 40 teleports and control powers out the ***. It seems like that is what will happen now with the nerfs and buffs. I also can't imagine how much DMG we will take now with astral shield getting a nerf.
From what people in the test realm have said, SE is actually a huge nerf, even though it says base dmg only. The way it scales seems to be based off of the max base dmg to some degree. The DF nerf is painful as well.
I have no comments for PvP, I don't enjoy that kind of thing and I think it needs to stay the **** out of my PvE content as it clearly is affecting my balances. Same with the PvPers, our PvE stuff is affecting them as well, though I think we got the worse end of the stick. I could have sworn Cryptic say they were going to make sure PvP and PvE don't interfere with each other and be balanced separately. I must have been dreaming. Every. ****ing. Game.
Foundry Name: "Wolframs Last Stand" (@Holythirst)
Foundry Map: Blacklake District
Type: Campaign, Story, Dungeon - 5 bosses, 1-2 players
Current State: Version 2.2 is up. Full release. Try it with code below.
Did more testing and Deadly Momentum does appear to currently give 75%, not the intended 15%. So ya, between our bleed dps being cut in half, and us losing basically 60% crit severity, PVE rogue basically got declawed. May as well just play naked in pve (on Preview/ Live servers) until they change these things back. Sorry for the misinformation previously.
meh who cares about shocking execution, it was never as good as people made it out to be in PVP, it just means now i might use courage breaker or bloodbath as a filler instaed of SE (courage breaker is funny).
the real deal is that rogues will now take twice as long to take down bosses, which *is* a problem... i mean, "top" rogues can take down the likes of hrimnir (just taking a random t2 boss as example) on their own in a few minutes (highest bleed tick i got on him was 50k, it crumbled in no time) but that already implies a good amount of luck, i mean, i have 50% crit chanche so at best there's always a 50% chanche that my lurker won't produce a crit bleed and building the daily back up takes a while.
and that's for actually well-geared and expert rogues, what about the not-so-awesome players? a lot of stuff that just got slower for top players is going to get impossibly tough and stressful to average parties, pair it up with astral nerf and take a look at the picture: much harder to stay alive AND you need to stay alive much longer. a game can't only live off a small amount of super-hardcore players.
I solo and am not a pro by any means. What I don't like about DF is its slow to get off in PVE when alone. SE I can live with the nerf..
DF is not a solo ability. It's too slow and makes it hard to move around. Sky Flourish is way better.
The problem is, dungeons are completely different. Enemies have way more health, and they usually aren't focused on you. They are most often ganging the cleric and fighters, so that's where DF shines. And in boss fights it's absolutely the game-changer. If you sit around trying to Sky Flourish a boss then you're going to get laughed out of the party. If you're solo, then none of the changes mean anything to you. But eventually, you'll hit 60 and need to PvP and PvE. And you can say bye bye to soloing.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
Looking at these changes maybe it would have been better to simply change the power behaviour according to where its used, on PvP or PvE. I guess it wouldn't be hard. A simple check on whether you are fighting a player or a monster should suffice. A couple of mmos do that where for instance confuse on mobs becomes daze on player characters or in PvP, damages are reduced.
Right now, maybe solo playing will not be affected much (if DF is not used) but while dungeoning, I am concerned about DF especially the bleed ticks.
So does this change to DF mean SF is a viable pve at will now? I always enjoyed the mobility SF offers overs DF, but used DF b/c of the ridiculous amount of dmg it did over SF.
0
samuraikingsMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I don't know why PvE abilities were nerfed at all. Who the hell was complaining about that?
GWFs. I am sure to a lesser extent, CWs as well. Don't get me wrong, there needed to be changes. TR doing 10 Million dmg in a dungeon and the GWF and CW only doing 5 each is a bit OP. Now, I think this is going to drop TR too close to them though, which is actually just as unfair to TR as it was to GWF/CW before. We should do about 2-3 million more dmg by the end of the dungeon, and if that is what this patch does, I am ok with that. I am not ok with us doing equal dmg though. I am squishier than the GWF and do not have as many control abilities as a CW. Assuming they did it right, my real issue is just the SE nerf. I used it to finish off Erineyes and trouble mobs really fast(It's intended use, as an execution). If it still doesn't do the same dmg, I am not happy with that. I know some people say it only nerfs the base dmg, which is like 500, but people in the test realm say it cuts the actual dmg in half, probably because of the way it scales off the base dmg.
I am reserving my judgement until the patch but Cryptic has been so incompetent thus far, I have zero faith in them to do it right.
Foundry Name: "Wolframs Last Stand" (@Holythirst)
Foundry Map: Blacklake District
Type: Campaign, Story, Dungeon - 5 bosses, 1-2 players
Current State: Version 2.2 is up. Full release. Try it with code below.
I have to say. I am really excited about the nerf to SE why? cause it does to much damage. This of course in pvp. Don't compare Ice Knife to SE. SE does way way way way way more dmg. A rogue half asleep can smack his head on the key board cast SE and 1 shot someone. So it only makes sense. Honestly next Ice Knife does need to be toned down. I really don't think a daily should do more then 25% of someone life. Its a utility with some burst. A daily is not meant to be relied on unless you are bad.
The reality is. All rogues that are good this didn't effect them cause they don't need SE to own in PvP. This just takes the bad ones out of it and they have to QQ. I am a GF. I just wanted to hop on and read the TR side of it. Honestly do you think SE should do more then 25% of another players life ? If so how do you sleep at night ? Now it wont be so unbalanced is all. So great changes are coming and the DC double astral shield don't stack yay. PvP is lookin good.
I have to say. I am really excited about the nerf to SE why? cause it does to much damage. This of course in pvp. Don't compare Ice Knife to SE. SE does way way way way way more dmg. A rogue half asleep can smack his head on the key board cast SE and 1 shot someone. So it only makes sense. Honestly next Ice Knife does need to be toned down. I really don't think a daily should do more then 25% of someone life. Its a utility with some burst. A daily is not meant to be relied on unless you are bad.
The reality is. All rogues that are good this didn't effect them cause they don't need SE to own in PvP. This just takes the bad ones out of it and they have to QQ. I am a GF. I just wanted to hop on and read the TR side of it. Honestly do you think SE should do more then 25% of another players life ? If so how do you sleep at night ? Now it wont be so unbalanced is all. So great changes are coming and the DC double astral shield don't stack yay. PvP is lookin good.
Ice knife can be dodged, deflected and blocked and only does its insane damage when you are debuffed with ray of enfeeblement (which is getting a giant nerf bat from the patch).
SE cannot be dodged (I certainly don't remember seeing it being deflected or blocked either, although I don't use it that much on my rogue) once it starts to cast and it doesn't even matter how far the target runs.
Ice knife can be dodged, deflected and blocked and only does its insane damage when you are debuffed with ray of enfeeblement (which is getting a giant nerf bat from the patch).
SE cannot be dodged (I certainly don't remember seeing it being deflected or blocked either, although I don't use it that much on my rogue) once it starts to cast and it doesn't even matter how far the target runs.
thats not true ... SE's damage can completly be ignored by using "Impossible to Catch" as a TR
Comments
Oh... Ok - Seems like mostly A PVP thing then. Might even be a buff because of the changes to power. The 60% reduction to SE will hurt but I can take it in stride. Thank you so much for clarifying solsol1337 and gravethought for double checking. The bleed bug is awful but not crippling.
I secretly hate Duelist's Flurry as it is absolutely counter to how I enjoy playing but so currently overpowered that I can't justify not having it. So yeah, I'm actually kind of glad it's getting nerfed.
My interest in this game is actually being restored. TR was so keyboard-smashingly-derp and GWF was getting annoying in that I had to be absolutely perfect to be competitive. Maybe that won't be the case so much anymore. Or maybe I'll just go back to GW2 where my rogue feels like he has an intelligence attribute.
This is the most significant part that people seems to be missing. This is a huge nerf, at least 25% less damage overall on bosses.
Let me reiterate that. This part alone will reduce TR dps on bosses by at least 25%.
Look at this guy, he just wants hit 1-shot easy mode skill, guys why did PWE have to take that away from him????
But that isn't what he's saying at all? Are you joking? It's hard to read humor through text.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
non crit ~650
crit~1150
5x DM crit ~1650
So yep, its not "an UI/Character Sheet" display bug, its really giving that currently.
...So who's waiting for Ranger to come out? Lol...
we have some nice feats and powers to reduce enemy defenses and damage
Join the first neverwinter giveaway
The highest bleed tick I've seen on live during a dungeon (so other class debuffs/buffs may have had an affect) was around 20k/tick (only lasted like the first 4 ticks). Never did have a 4pc Shadow Weave CW I consistently grouped with.
Just now I was able to get a 15k/tick bleed going on the dummies (so just me no other buffs/debuffs). Which is about equal too, if not higher than my average bleed ticks on live. Never was one that was good at getting "all the stars to align" consistently to get the best bleed tick going all the time. Granted it ticks twice as slow compared to live which is a big change in of itself, this is more in response to the crit severity portion, you think losing 60% would mean I wouldn't be getting close to what I got on live, let alone beating the average. Though could have to do with dummies having no armor, since the live numbers are from dungeon runs.
If only the dummies didn't "die" so easily and the server wouldn't keep booting me for some patcher update that never works. Anyway no hard numbers to throw out, just a little observation I just did.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
90%CS with 5 stacks on test server, 150%CS on live.
1.9/2.5 = 76% damage = 24% damage loss on crits.
(1 + (0.3 * 0.9 ) ) / ( 1 + ( 0.3 * 1.5 ) ) = 1.27 / 1.45 = 87.6% = 12.4% loss on critically overrun normals and
0.76 * 0.876 = 66.6% = 33.3% damage loss on critically overrun crits.
So the 15k bleed would have been 15* 3/2 = 22.5k bleed on live server. Now if we consider that bleed ticks half the frequency it ticks on live, means that maximum bleed damage is doing only 1/3 of the maximum damage it is doing currently. Although if this was a bleed damage done without lurkers + stealth, then they have definitely increased the damage / scaling on bleed.
It was with Lurkers/Stealth
I have no problems doing the same here.
ROGUES ARE MEANT TO HURT. THIS WHY U MAKE THEM PAINFUL. DON'T NERF THEM OF THEIR USABILITY!
Come at me and may the devil take your soul
In PvP we all know SE was too strong(not that Ice Knife isn't). DF was also pretty strong in PvP when you used it on that poor GF holding up his shield, or the little CW cowering in their circle. The problem is, these things were fine in PvE and needed.
In PvE I used SE to finish off an Erineyes before it healed. my DF is my main source of DMG. If the DF nerf was to A. make it so you only want 1 rogue in a party, and/or B. to lower my DMG where I only do 10-20% more than the GWF and CW, I am fine with that. The issue is, it seems to not be the case. I will reserve judgement until the patch is out, but it seems like our DMG will drop a good 40% across the board.
In PvE, unless I am playing like a mentally challenged rhinoceros, I shouldn't be beaten by a tankier GWF, or a CW that has 40 teleports and control powers out the ***. It seems like that is what will happen now with the nerfs and buffs. I also can't imagine how much DMG we will take now with astral shield getting a nerf.
From what people in the test realm have said, SE is actually a huge nerf, even though it says base dmg only. The way it scales seems to be based off of the max base dmg to some degree. The DF nerf is painful as well.
I have no comments for PvP, I don't enjoy that kind of thing and I think it needs to stay the **** out of my PvE content as it clearly is affecting my balances. Same with the PvPers, our PvE stuff is affecting them as well, though I think we got the worse end of the stick. I could have sworn Cryptic say they were going to make sure PvP and PvE don't interfere with each other and be balanced separately. I must have been dreaming. Every. ****ing. Game.
Foundry Map: Blacklake District
Type: Campaign, Story, Dungeon - 5 bosses, 1-2 players
Current State: Version 2.2 is up. Full release. Try it with code below.
Short Code: NW-DU2BES2WA
Could you make a topic over at http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/forumdisplay.php?1211-NeverwinterPreview-Feedback-General-Discussion ? If what your saying is true, theres absolutly no reason to play TR anymore
long live CWs ! hahaha
im a CW, just trolling around. peace people
the real deal is that rogues will now take twice as long to take down bosses, which *is* a problem... i mean, "top" rogues can take down the likes of hrimnir (just taking a random t2 boss as example) on their own in a few minutes (highest bleed tick i got on him was 50k, it crumbled in no time) but that already implies a good amount of luck, i mean, i have 50% crit chanche so at best there's always a 50% chanche that my lurker won't produce a crit bleed and building the daily back up takes a while.
and that's for actually well-geared and expert rogues, what about the not-so-awesome players? a lot of stuff that just got slower for top players is going to get impossibly tough and stressful to average parties, pair it up with astral nerf and take a look at the picture: much harder to stay alive AND you need to stay alive much longer. a game can't only live off a small amount of super-hardcore players.
DF is not a solo ability. It's too slow and makes it hard to move around. Sky Flourish is way better.
The problem is, dungeons are completely different. Enemies have way more health, and they usually aren't focused on you. They are most often ganging the cleric and fighters, so that's where DF shines. And in boss fights it's absolutely the game-changer. If you sit around trying to Sky Flourish a boss then you're going to get laughed out of the party. If you're solo, then none of the changes mean anything to you. But eventually, you'll hit 60 and need to PvP and PvE. And you can say bye bye to soloing.
Right now, maybe solo playing will not be affected much (if DF is not used) but while dungeoning, I am concerned about DF especially the bleed ticks.
GWFs. I am sure to a lesser extent, CWs as well. Don't get me wrong, there needed to be changes. TR doing 10 Million dmg in a dungeon and the GWF and CW only doing 5 each is a bit OP. Now, I think this is going to drop TR too close to them though, which is actually just as unfair to TR as it was to GWF/CW before. We should do about 2-3 million more dmg by the end of the dungeon, and if that is what this patch does, I am ok with that. I am not ok with us doing equal dmg though. I am squishier than the GWF and do not have as many control abilities as a CW. Assuming they did it right, my real issue is just the SE nerf. I used it to finish off Erineyes and trouble mobs really fast(It's intended use, as an execution). If it still doesn't do the same dmg, I am not happy with that. I know some people say it only nerfs the base dmg, which is like 500, but people in the test realm say it cuts the actual dmg in half, probably because of the way it scales off the base dmg.
I am reserving my judgement until the patch but Cryptic has been so incompetent thus far, I have zero faith in them to do it right.
Foundry Map: Blacklake District
Type: Campaign, Story, Dungeon - 5 bosses, 1-2 players
Current State: Version 2.2 is up. Full release. Try it with code below.
Short Code: NW-DU2BES2WA
The reality is. All rogues that are good this didn't effect them cause they don't need SE to own in PvP. This just takes the bad ones out of it and they have to QQ. I am a GF. I just wanted to hop on and read the TR side of it. Honestly do you think SE should do more then 25% of another players life ? If so how do you sleep at night ? Now it wont be so unbalanced is all. So great changes are coming and the DC double astral shield don't stack yay. PvP is lookin good.
Ice knife can be dodged, deflected and blocked and only does its insane damage when you are debuffed with ray of enfeeblement (which is getting a giant nerf bat from the patch).
SE cannot be dodged (I certainly don't remember seeing it being deflected or blocked either, although I don't use it that much on my rogue) once it starts to cast and it doesn't even matter how far the target runs.
thats not true ... SE's damage can completly be ignored by using "Impossible to Catch" as a TR