Idk guys, I'm taking this a bit differently.
People actually have to DODGE now. Plus, with the ****ty returns on recovery for this CD, I'd take this as an opportunity to swap out some recovery for other stats like power or defense.
The question becomes "can your party survive 5 seconds without blue?"
EVERYONE has to play smarter now. Your party members have to use pots (which they should be doing anyway) and dodge a bit more.
YOU will have to pay attention to fights and know when the best time to put down the shield. That's going to take more concentration, and more skill. And we're a skillful bunch, yo.
So let's use the Preview to test out if parties can survive that 5 seconds. If you swap out some of that recovery for power, your heals should "hit" a bit harder to make up for it. Drop down to 3.5k recovery and then jack up your Power/Defense and see if it's really that much harder.
Based on your comment, it appears all you looked at is the impact in PvE?
So where do the changes leave the cleric in PvP?
I appreciate the long time players test all the changes on the test server but I actually wonder how this will impact players who are not yet geared in sets and are just entering T1 and T2 and with a pug and not premade groups with Voice available
edit:
Nevermind someone did in another thread. Pretty much what I expected Especially since Neverwinter has an extremely casual approach and attracts casual player more so than MMO powergamers and vets imo.
I also posted my experience in that thread, but I didn't lay it out so nicely. Same result basically, but we did last up until the 1st boss (Epic Mad Dragon). I'm in T1 or PvP gear (I switched just to see if it would help). It was frankly really ugly.
Dead. I'm focus targeted and I sort of stay up with AS, then when it goes off I splat. So I have about 10 seconds per fight to make a difference for others (and not get any credit for it).
I also posted my experience in that thread, but I didn't lay it out so nicely. Same result basically, but we did last up until the 1st boss (Epic Mad Dragon). I'm in T1 or PvP gear (I switched just to see if it would help). It was frankly really ugly.
Dead. I'm focus targeted and I sort of stay up with AS, then when it goes off I splat. So I have about 10 seconds per fight to make a difference for others (and not get any credit for it).
So, apart from the above - how was the film Mrs Lincoln?
...............vote for your favourite expansion.......... "Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity". ..............not this one then.............
GWF unstoppable tankiness is very misleading, you literally have to lose HALF of your health to get a full unstoppable, it doesn't really contribute to overall tankiness all that much, it just makes healing more effective on you essentially.
Just as a note, most good GWF builds will make use of at least one other way to build Determination (to use for going Unstoppable) besides just taking damage. The class has some encounters that build Determination directly, and one of the DPS specs has a capstone feat that allows Determination to be built by dealing damage as well.
My Sentinel GWF alt uses an Encounter called Daring Shout that provides determination for each target hit, gives me bonus damage resistance, and debuffs the affected enemies' damage resistance until they attack me. This is the sort of ability that offtank GWFs are going to be needing to make good use of after the changes (in conjunction with Unstoppable).
But my point is that I think their kit has enough Determination builders and mitigation boosters in it for GWFs in endgame not to go splat -- it's just that people are going to need to actually use them now, and use them effectively. Actually, with Unstoppable being so timing-dependent (you want to make sure you turn it on when it's going to matter), weaving it into the times that AS can't cover should hopefully be pretty intuitive for skilled GWFs.
Also from what I've seen/heard GF block is a joke at 60, blocks one attack and it's done.
Hopefully that's an exaggeration being spread around by community drama. My friend's GWF hit 60 last night and hasn't had this happen to him yet. And he's DPS spec'd.
Of course, he has had the bug happen numerous times where Guard just decides it isn't going to work properly due to server/client lag. And that can indeed be lethal in the right circumstances. But that is being worked on for the balance patch apparently.
Only problem is Daring Shout sucks compared to Roar for determination generation as far as I can tell, and has a much longer cool down to boot.
I really hope this patch brings it more on par with Roar, it in fact should generate more determination then Roar IMHO, considering Roar is a interrupt and a pushback / knockback as well, and does decent damage on top of that.
Well, the way I figure it, Daring Shout should suck compared to Roar for building Det, since Daring Shout also provides a significant buff to tankiness and attributable DPS (from the mark), while Roar otherwise just provides some direct damage and an interrupt/push.
I figure that we're supposed to be using Daring Shout when we're actually offtanking (which means we're also taking hits and building Det that way, alongside that bit of extra Det that Daring Shout provides) and using Roar when we're DPS-focused (it giving more Det is important there because GWFs have a harder time building Det when we aren't taking damage).
That's also probably why Roar gets feat benefits in an offensive tree while Daring Shout gets feat benefits from our tanking tree. (Of course, the feat that buffs Daring Shout is currently broken! But that is stated to be getting fixed.)
Only problem is Daring Shout sucks compared to Roar for determination generation as far as I can tell, and has a much longer cool down to boot.
I really hope this patch brings it more on par with Roar, it in fact should generate more determination then Roar IMHO, considering Roar is a interrupt and a pushback / knockback as well, and does decent damage on top of that.
They also nerfed the mitigation Daring Shout gave, on my GWF it honestly wasn't giving all that much to begin with.... so yeah.
using Roar when we're DPS-focused (it giving more Det is important there because GWFs have a harder time building Det when we aren't taking damage).
I was following you up to this point. I haven't really played Instigator Spec yet, but Destroyer Spec gets Determination from attacking, something I feel should be a baseline class component, because only building it when being hit is pretty silly for a DPS class, it makes sense when we are in fact tanking, but I digress.
I mean in group content everyone but the Tank (pretty much the GF 90% of the time) should be avoiding damage as best as they can and taking as close to 0 damage as possible, basically they shouldn't be getting hit at all in a perfect world / situation.
Every other class seems to be able to build / use their class mechanic pretty efficiently and often except for GWFs (unless they are specced Destroyer). By default we only build Determination from being Hit and getting Killing Blows, which isn't always easy especially with CWs knocking everything around and doing crazy AoE DPS.
I feel like they should add the building Determination from Attacking to GWFs as a baseline thing and add something else useful to the Destroyer Capstone IMHO. Like make extra Determination on Crit, or whatever. I suppose doing that would make Determination building encounters unneeded, so maybe that wouldn't work without changing a lot of other things to compensate but I still feel Daring Shout should give more Determination then Roar.
That and I feel like they need to change the way Marks work, Marks should last their ENTIRE duration (something that is abysmally short as it is), pretty dumb that they go away after the marked target hits you. Especially when you're specced as Sentinel using the Intimidation Feat which increases the threat generation of said ability, or even when you're playing Solo, because obviously if your Solo or Pulling threat with the ability the mobs are going to hit you, no brainer there.
I think the idea was to make it so that the mark would help your party kill adds in the event that your Daring Shout didn't actually cause the adds to turn on you ('cause if the adds DID turn on you, the GWF, then you could then easily AoE them down with your own at-wills and such). But in practice it's a mess because (1) the threat generating feat for the shout is bugged, (2) the base threat of the shout seems to be poor, and (3) many monsters have incidental AoE damage that can bonk you and clear the resistance debuff even if they aren't targeting you and even if you're positioning yourself pretty intelligently.
Pretty much, the GWF marks need looking at. I'm not sure precisely what to recommend Cryptic do with them (I dunno if them just staying the full duration regardless is necessarily the answer either, though it seems a likely option).
As for the philosophy of avoiding damage, I tend to agree, and I wouldn't be at all unhappy if they added minor Det gain from offensive actions for all GWF specs and not just the Destroyer.
All I meant with the Roar/Daring Shout comparison is that ostensibly, the tanking GWF using Daring Shout is going to be expected to take more hits (because he/she is controlling adds by holding threat) than an offensive GWF using Roar (because the offensive GWF doesn't necessarily want to hold threat, just to kill the adds in as crushingly fast a time as possible while a control class keeps them in check).
Yea, I'm specced Sentinel myself, though my guild has two main GF tanks that do all the tanking. I like the survivability and the option to off-tank if needed, but when not off tanking / tanking it would be nice to push out some more DPS.
I do alright, but it would really be nice for Marks to last the entire duration, Daring Shout to generate more Determination / Action Points (and also do more damage with the Intimidation Feat because the 5% is abysmal, but it looks like they are addressing that slightly in the patch), and build Determination in more ways than just getting hit and killing blows.
That and Indomitable Battle Strike should give you the bonus action points and mark nearby enemies regardless of you getting the killing blow with that encounter or not, not always the easiest thing to pull off in chaos.
Played around a bit on test shard. Seems AS got hit pretty bad. Nine second duration is pretty short when things get rough.
But the main reason for this post: Is there any way to respec powers/ability score on the test shard? Afaik it's not available, which kind of defeats the purpose of a test server.
With it goes the cleric. Astral Shield has been the only saving grace of the cleric as a healer/damage reducer. Bastion of Health is complete trash with an 18 second CD. Healing Word is garbage for keeping people alive (no recovery effect kills it. Sun Burst isn't saving anyone. Forgemaster's is good but you aren't keeping anyone alive with it alone because of the low up-time on it.
Whether people realize it, o want to admit it, Astral Shield is the ONLY thing that is keeping the cleric from being HAMSTER at their role in a group. If you don't believe me go do the last boss of Temple of the Spider without Astral Shield (assuming you get there in the first place). Those blade masters will shred your entire group apart between CW CC and you can't heal through it even if you wanted to. You NEED that damage reduction from AS.
Note: I am happy about the AS stacking nerf though.
I could not have said it better.... If these changes remain to live clerics will be dropping like flies.
I don't disagree with the changes to AS... but they should work to make the class a more well-rounded healer and bring up underpowered skills before they make a change such as this.
I just did some testing on Mimic server. Not sure which thread to throw this in so I guess I'll put it here. This is more on how important AS is and less on how people will complete content with the nerf, just fyi.
I ran Epic Spider with DC, GWFx2, TR, GF. The DC (myself) is full t2 and CN set. GF is a regular in my groups and has full t2 and CN set. One of the GWFs was full T2, CN set, perfect enchant, GS over 13k. TR and GWF#2 were in mostly t2 and some t1/pvp gear. All that is to just give an idea of how strong the group was. TR was also a friend, not a pug.
First I wanted to try running without AS at all, so I did that. I was using Sunburst, D-FF, and then rotating between Healing Word and Bastion of Health, testing both. Everyone learned pretty quick why AS is so important. We wiped on the first boss, or near enough at least, we killed him but the last of us died as soon as the boss died.
We wiped once or twice clearing to the 2nd boss. A large part of this was the lack of AS, but the cleanse nerf also played a serious role. The revive debuff thing makes a HUGE difference. We managed to kill the 2nd boss without any permanent deaths, miraculously.
We then wiped, gloriously I might add, to the phase spiders before boss room. I anticipated that, of course. We lasted about 15 seconds I think. I pulled out AS to get past them.
Finally, I wanted to try the final boss without AS. As you might have guessed, we wiped within a minute, probably closer to 40 seconds. Yeah, then we went and killed her while I used AS, but that is hardly worth notice considering our gear far outstripping the place.
None of this testing is super useful except to say that Astral Shield is without a doubt the SINGLE REQUIRED POWER in the game. Every other ability, regardless of class, is interchangeable and optional. Astral Shield is absolutely required for any remotely difficult content, and the difference between using the power and not using it is astounding.
More on topic, I have to agree with some previous posters who have said this will move towards making 2 CWs a requirement. After having run with an incredibly well-geared GWF and another decent geared one, I can say that it doesn't come close to compensating for the CW's CC ability. I don't really see GWF's being an acceptable alternative to CW in any difficult content, in fact they are likely to be even less acceptable than they were because of this AS change, despite their substantial buff.
Also, all GFs will have to spec and gear to tank. Full Timeless and DPS spec GF gets crushed in a place as easy as Epic Spider. Our GF died a dozen+ times, at least 8 times more than anyone else.
I just did some testing on Mimic server. Not sure which thread to throw this in so I guess I'll put it here. This is more on how important AS is and less on how people will complete content with the nerf, just fyi.
I ran Epic Spider with DC, GWFx2, TR, GF. The DC (myself) is full t2 and CN set. GF is a regular in my groups and has full t2 and CN set. One of the GWFs was full T2, CN set, perfect enchant, GS over 13k. TR and GWF#2 were in mostly t2 and some t1/pvp gear. All that is to just give an idea of how strong the group was. TR was also a friend, not a pug.
First I wanted to try running without AS at all, so I did that. I was using Sunburst, D-FF, and then rotating between Healing Word and Bastion of Health, testing both. Everyone learned pretty quick why AS is so important. We wiped on the first boss, or near enough at least, we killed him but the last of us died as soon as the boss died.
We wiped once or twice clearing to the 2nd boss. A large part of this was the lack of AS, but the cleanse nerf also played a serious role. The revive debuff thing makes a HUGE difference. We managed to kill the 2nd boss without any permanent deaths, miraculously.
We then wiped, gloriously I might add, to the phase spiders before boss room. I anticipated that, of course. We lasted about 15 seconds I think. I pulled out AS to get past them.
Finally, I wanted to try the final boss without AS. As you might have guessed, we wiped within a minute, probably closer to 40 seconds. Yeah, then we went and killed her while I used AS, but that is hardly worth notice considering our gear far outstripping the place.
None of this testing is super useful except to say that Astral Shield is without a doubt the SINGLE REQUIRED POWER in the game. Every other ability, regardless of class, is interchangeable and optional. Astral Shield is absolutely required for any remotely difficult content, and the difference between using the power and not using it is astounding.
Exactly, it's because this game is a Pseudo-Action Rpg.
Dodge is only good for the obvious delayed red circles.
The game throws too much unavoidable spammable dmg at you that 100% REQUIRES a broken dmg reduction source like Astral Shield.
They either need to make a large portion of all the dmg that comes at you avoidable, or just reduce all their dmg.
I mean really, basic mobs GAP CLOSERS will kill you, hello?
oh man I am not pvping ever again until they remove righteousness...it's just dumb at this point to even have it in there. Balance our heals around damage, don't completely gimp our effect on ourselves while leaving damage output relatively untouched; that's just asking for balance issues...how about you add a -40% damage to clerics debuff to all classes..yea I thought so....just dumb really
And what about the die hard PvP clerics, they are trash and will be one hit in pvp now once shield is off, great. It's already able to be canceled, or to push you out of it, or to stun lock you so you can't place it at times. This is stupid.
Actually i wonder what the other classes have as they're version of "righteousness", AS is not really godly, its not like with AS i can 100% finish a dungeon, or win in pvp. In pvp AS is virtually useless if you have a cw and rogue on you.
BoH has a horrendous cooldown and doesn't heal for that much anyway, and FF requires a high-health, centrally placed, monster. And a team that can both recognise and (effectively) hug that monster.
"Stand in the blue" is easy to communicate.
"Stand next to that guy, no not that guy, that one. Yes, him, NO DON'T KILL HIM FFS" is...less easy.
Plus you usually use the time between AS casts to build DP for the next AS cast. If we have to spend an extra pip each time to stick a D'd forgemasters down, it's going to get...interesting.
I am already having difficulty building divinity to keep AS up while avoiding the mob, and points to consider:
1. Not all have a good static group
2. not all have good gears.
3. consider the population of GWFs and CWs; now how many of them are experts in mob handling.
4. i dont see any buffing up on clerics with the AS, so how is this balanced?
EVERYONE has to play smarter now. Your party members have to use pots (which they should be doing anyway) and dodge a bit more.
wait a moment. I tought the reason to have healers, aka CLERICS in a game, would be
so that your partymembers didn't have to spam potions. If the devs wants cleric-healing
to be so bad that we also have to resort to healpotion spam in a group, i'm simply dropping
this game like a bad habbit.
wait a moment. I tought the reason to have healers, aka CLERICS in a game, would be
so that your partymembers didn't have to spam potions. If the devs wants cleric-healing
to be so bad that we also have to resort to healpotion spam in a group, i'm simply dropping
this game like a bad habbit.
That's just BS through and through.
Agreed. My husband has already quit his 60 cleric and is playing his 60 GF, and I've already switched to a 60 CW instead of my 60 cleric.
Clerics already have to spam the most potions out of any party member on live. With this change going through, the game is taking a nosedive.
Agreed. My husband has already quit his 60 cleric and is playing his 60 GF, and I've already switched to a 60 CW instead of my 60 cleric.
Clerics already have to spam the most potions out of any party member on live. With this change going through, the game is taking a nosedive.
I have a 60 rogue I am going to focus on if they break clerics worse.... IMHO, it sounds like they didn't even consider clerics, they just listened to whiney pvp'ers and said oh yea we here at Cryptic HATE clerics lets nerf them further in to the ground.
Bad enough they want you to tank but you cant last more than a few seconds with every mob beating and lining up their AOE attacks on you, and even if they drop you, guess what, when you get revived, you instantly gain all that agro back.
I am serious when I ask this, do they (the devs) even seriously play a cleric? Or is it just an after thought to throw a bone to those that like or want to play a cleric.
I just did some testing on Mimic server. Not sure which thread to throw this in so I guess I'll put it here. This is more on how important AS is and less on how people will complete content with the nerf, just fyi.
I ran Epic Spider with DC, GWFx2, TR, GF. The DC (myself) is full t2 and CN set. GF is a regular in my groups and has full t2 and CN set. One of the GWFs was full T2, CN set, perfect enchant, GS over 13k. TR and GWF#2 were in mostly t2 and some t1/pvp gear. All that is to just give an idea of how strong the group was. TR was also a friend, not a pug.
First I wanted to try running without AS at all, so I did that. I was using Sunburst, D-FF, and then rotating between Healing Word and Bastion of Health, testing both. Everyone learned pretty quick why AS is so important. We wiped on the first boss, or near enough at least, we killed him but the last of us died as soon as the boss died.
We wiped once or twice clearing to the 2nd boss. A large part of this was the lack of AS, but the cleanse nerf also played a serious role. The revive debuff thing makes a HUGE difference. We managed to kill the 2nd boss without any permanent deaths, miraculously.
We then wiped, gloriously I might add, to the phase spiders before boss room. I anticipated that, of course. We lasted about 15 seconds I think. I pulled out AS to get past them.
Finally, I wanted to try the final boss without AS. As you might have guessed, we wiped within a minute, probably closer to 40 seconds. Yeah, then we went and killed her while I used AS, but that is hardly worth notice considering our gear far outstripping the place.
None of this testing is super useful except to say that Astral Shield is without a doubt the SINGLE REQUIRED POWER in the game. Every other ability, regardless of class, is interchangeable and optional. Astral Shield is absolutely required for any remotely difficult content, and the difference between using the power and not using it is astounding.
This is pretty sad.
Next time bring 2x cleric, 2x control wizards and 1 guardian fighter. That's the new stacking right? Right?
More seriously, many mechanics simply cannot be dodged or blocked. The gameplay balance is out of wack, and reminds me of "and we doubled it" BS from a certain other game company.
We need some dev's thoughts on how this is supposed to go down.
Idk guys, I'm taking this a bit differently.
People actually have to DODGE now. Plus, with the ****ty returns on recovery for this CD, I'd take this as an opportunity to swap out some recovery for other stats like power or defense.
The question becomes "can your party survive 5 seconds without blue?"
EVERYONE has to play smarter now. Your party members have to use pots (which they should be doing anyway) and dodge a bit more.
YOU will have to pay attention to fights and know when the best time to put down the shield. That's going to take more concentration, and more skill. And we're a skillful bunch, yo.
So let's use the Preview to test out if parties can survive that 5 seconds. If you swap out some of that recovery for power, your heals should "hit" a bit harder to make up for it. Drop down to 3.5k recovery and then jack up your Power/Defense and see if it's really that much harder.
This seems to be their intent? That other classes dodge and use pots? Seems to be that they 'already' know how badly this is going to affect clerics and JUST DON'T CARE! Or else, I think we'd see a bigger benefit from our other spells and they wouldn't have choked the living daylights out of cleanse either.
Seems like the person who made these changes to clerics only works on the PvP side of things. Buffing all the DPS classes up and nerfing the cleric into oblivion. Because...*that's* balance.
Anyways, I have a CW I will be playing.
I hope that all goes well with you clerics stronger than I am to go on with these changes.
PVE wise if you factor that tank classes will now be viable and can do their job i think AS being down 33% of the time is bearable. However on pvp i dont see how this can work.
It is a fact that if people do not assist on the cleric then he will never die, and on un-coordinted/undergeared teams even assisting they will have a hard time killing a good cleric.
However when you face coordinated and same geared players clerics have a very hard time to stay alive or survive an assist train. Usually what happens is that someone kicks you out of AS then they CC you a couple of times and by the time you make it back to the AS you are almost dead (if not dead already) so on that regard i absolutely do not think that having AS up 100% of the time in pvp is overpowered or incorrect it actually encourages that the enemy team coordinates and assist.
IF you cant have AS up 100% of the time then you have to react, which sounds good and doable if you face melee clases only, but what happens when you face a Control Wizard? They can CC you from very long range, you cant reliable distinguis the animation so if you dont have AS up before the CC starts chances are that you will be dead before you can even use 1 ability.
So in a nutshell if you want to remove AS up 100% of the time in pvp then you have to also add diminishing returns to CC abilities and grant inmunity for some time as it si right now if you are not in a blushield a Cleric will die without being able to use a single hability.
Idk guys, I'm taking this a bit differently.
People actually have to DODGE now. Plus, with the ****ty returns on recovery for this CD, I'd take this as an opportunity to swap out some recovery for other stats like power or defense.
The question becomes "can your party survive 5 seconds without blue?"
EVERYONE has to play smarter now. Your party members have to use pots (which they should be doing anyway) and dodge a bit more.
YOU will have to pay attention to fights and know when the best time to put down the shield. That's going to take more concentration, and more skill. And we're a skillful bunch, yo.
So let's use the Preview to test out if parties can survive that 5 seconds. If you swap out some of that recovery for power, your heals should "hit" a bit harder to make up for it. Drop down to 3.5k recovery and then jack up your Power/Defense and see if it's really that much harder.
What about PVP? With no CC diminishing returns and the fact that CW can CC from distance when you face a good coordinated group clerics will not stand a chance. you will get CC before you can cast Astral Shield and you will die before you can move because of subsequent CCs. Keep in mind i did said when facing organized groups, when you play against unorganized teams probably Clerics will be ok and will still be fun, but when it comes to competitive levels an all dps group will be the best setup, Yea pvp team mechanics can be adjusted and prolly you can have a guardian or something like that as bodyguard to help, but again without CC diminishing returns i dont see this working for cleric players.
I think your intention to force the clerics to actually think and choose when is the best way to cast Astral Shield are good, i think that on the pve side probably you moved on the right direction but as far as pvp goes you still need to tweak other things, i completely think you are plain and simple not caring about clerics viability in pvp, another example of this is the patch note when you openly accept that the new mechanics for assist points will affect healing clerics.
I just did some testing on Mimic server. Not sure which thread to throw this in so I guess I'll put it here. This is more on how important AS is and less on how people will complete content with the nerf, just fyi.
I ran Epic Spider with DC, GWFx2, TR, GF. The DC (myself) is full t2 and CN set. GF is a regular in my groups and has full t2 and CN set. One of the GWFs was full T2, CN set, perfect enchant, GS over 13k. TR and GWF#2 were in mostly t2 and some t1/pvp gear. All that is to just give an idea of how strong the group was. TR was also a friend, not a pug.
First I wanted to try running without AS at all, so I did that. I was using Sunburst, D-FF, and then rotating between Healing Word and Bastion of Health, testing both. Everyone learned pretty quick why AS is so important. We wiped on the first boss, or near enough at least, we killed him but the last of us died as soon as the boss died.
We wiped once or twice clearing to the 2nd boss. A large part of this was the lack of AS, but the cleanse nerf also played a serious role. The revive debuff thing makes a HUGE difference. We managed to kill the 2nd boss without any permanent deaths, miraculously.
We then wiped, gloriously I might add, to the phase spiders before boss room. I anticipated that, of course. We lasted about 15 seconds I think. I pulled out AS to get past them.
Finally, I wanted to try the final boss without AS. As you might have guessed, we wiped within a minute, probably closer to 40 seconds. Yeah, then we went and killed her while I used AS, but that is hardly worth notice considering our gear far outstripping the place.
None of this testing is super useful except to say that Astral Shield is without a doubt the SINGLE REQUIRED POWER in the game. Every other ability, regardless of class, is interchangeable and optional. Astral Shield is absolutely required for any remotely difficult content, and the difference between using the power and not using it is astounding.
fascinating ... next please try out on epic Dread Vault, using 2x Cleric perhaps.
The sky isn't falling that hard. Really, it isn't.
Well....
Looking at the myriad of posts, together with the reports from experienced Clerics on the trial server:
I would say that your post is possibly the most inaccurate ever written on this forum. Even surpassing, in terms of direct and immediate inaccuracy, the many ones proclaiming wow to be the first mmo.
To achieve this remarkable status with just a one line post takes some doing, but you managed to achieve this feat with apparent ease.
Hats off, (or rather Shields off) to you.
...............vote for your favourite expansion.......... "Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity". ..............not this one then.............
Comments
Based on your comment, it appears all you looked at is the impact in PvE?
So where do the changes leave the cleric in PvP?
I also posted my experience in that thread, but I didn't lay it out so nicely. Same result basically, but we did last up until the 1st boss (Epic Mad Dragon). I'm in T1 or PvP gear (I switched just to see if it would help). It was frankly really ugly.
Dead. I'm focus targeted and I sort of stay up with AS, then when it goes off I splat. So I have about 10 seconds per fight to make a difference for others (and not get any credit for it).
So, apart from the above - how was the film Mrs Lincoln?
"Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
..............not this one then.............
Just as a note, most good GWF builds will make use of at least one other way to build Determination (to use for going Unstoppable) besides just taking damage. The class has some encounters that build Determination directly, and one of the DPS specs has a capstone feat that allows Determination to be built by dealing damage as well.
My Sentinel GWF alt uses an Encounter called Daring Shout that provides determination for each target hit, gives me bonus damage resistance, and debuffs the affected enemies' damage resistance until they attack me. This is the sort of ability that offtank GWFs are going to be needing to make good use of after the changes (in conjunction with Unstoppable).
But my point is that I think their kit has enough Determination builders and mitigation boosters in it for GWFs in endgame not to go splat -- it's just that people are going to need to actually use them now, and use them effectively. Actually, with Unstoppable being so timing-dependent (you want to make sure you turn it on when it's going to matter), weaving it into the times that AS can't cover should hopefully be pretty intuitive for skilled GWFs.
Hopefully that's an exaggeration being spread around by community drama. My friend's GWF hit 60 last night and hasn't had this happen to him yet. And he's DPS spec'd.
Of course, he has had the bug happen numerous times where Guard just decides it isn't going to work properly due to server/client lag. And that can indeed be lethal in the right circumstances. But that is being worked on for the balance patch apparently.
I really hope this patch brings it more on par with Roar, it in fact should generate more determination then Roar IMHO, considering Roar is a interrupt and a pushback / knockback as well, and does decent damage on top of that.
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I figure that we're supposed to be using Daring Shout when we're actually offtanking (which means we're also taking hits and building Det that way, alongside that bit of extra Det that Daring Shout provides) and using Roar when we're DPS-focused (it giving more Det is important there because GWFs have a harder time building Det when we aren't taking damage).
That's also probably why Roar gets feat benefits in an offensive tree while Daring Shout gets feat benefits from our tanking tree. (Of course, the feat that buffs Daring Shout is currently broken! But that is stated to be getting fixed.)
They also nerfed the mitigation Daring Shout gave, on my GWF it honestly wasn't giving all that much to begin with.... so yeah.
I was following you up to this point. I haven't really played Instigator Spec yet, but Destroyer Spec gets Determination from attacking, something I feel should be a baseline class component, because only building it when being hit is pretty silly for a DPS class, it makes sense when we are in fact tanking, but I digress.
I mean in group content everyone but the Tank (pretty much the GF 90% of the time) should be avoiding damage as best as they can and taking as close to 0 damage as possible, basically they shouldn't be getting hit at all in a perfect world / situation.
Every other class seems to be able to build / use their class mechanic pretty efficiently and often except for GWFs (unless they are specced Destroyer). By default we only build Determination from being Hit and getting Killing Blows, which isn't always easy especially with CWs knocking everything around and doing crazy AoE DPS.
I feel like they should add the building Determination from Attacking to GWFs as a baseline thing and add something else useful to the Destroyer Capstone IMHO. Like make extra Determination on Crit, or whatever. I suppose doing that would make Determination building encounters unneeded, so maybe that wouldn't work without changing a lot of other things to compensate but I still feel Daring Shout should give more Determination then Roar.
That and I feel like they need to change the way Marks work, Marks should last their ENTIRE duration (something that is abysmally short as it is), pretty dumb that they go away after the marked target hits you. Especially when you're specced as Sentinel using the Intimidation Feat which increases the threat generation of said ability, or even when you're playing Solo, because obviously if your Solo or Pulling threat with the ability the mobs are going to hit you, no brainer there.
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Pretty much, the GWF marks need looking at. I'm not sure precisely what to recommend Cryptic do with them (I dunno if them just staying the full duration regardless is necessarily the answer either, though it seems a likely option).
As for the philosophy of avoiding damage, I tend to agree, and I wouldn't be at all unhappy if they added minor Det gain from offensive actions for all GWF specs and not just the Destroyer.
All I meant with the Roar/Daring Shout comparison is that ostensibly, the tanking GWF using Daring Shout is going to be expected to take more hits (because he/she is controlling adds by holding threat) than an offensive GWF using Roar (because the offensive GWF doesn't necessarily want to hold threat, just to kill the adds in as crushingly fast a time as possible while a control class keeps them in check).
I do alright, but it would really be nice for Marks to last the entire duration, Daring Shout to generate more Determination / Action Points (and also do more damage with the Intimidation Feat because the 5% is abysmal, but it looks like they are addressing that slightly in the patch), and build Determination in more ways than just getting hit and killing blows.
That and Indomitable Battle Strike should give you the bonus action points and mark nearby enemies regardless of you getting the killing blow with that encounter or not, not always the easiest thing to pull off in chaos.
Am I crazy or what?
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But the main reason for this post: Is there any way to respec powers/ability score on the test shard? Afaik it's not available, which kind of defeats the purpose of a test server.
I could not have said it better.... If these changes remain to live clerics will be dropping like flies.
I ran Epic Spider with DC, GWFx2, TR, GF. The DC (myself) is full t2 and CN set. GF is a regular in my groups and has full t2 and CN set. One of the GWFs was full T2, CN set, perfect enchant, GS over 13k. TR and GWF#2 were in mostly t2 and some t1/pvp gear. All that is to just give an idea of how strong the group was. TR was also a friend, not a pug.
First I wanted to try running without AS at all, so I did that. I was using Sunburst, D-FF, and then rotating between Healing Word and Bastion of Health, testing both. Everyone learned pretty quick why AS is so important. We wiped on the first boss, or near enough at least, we killed him but the last of us died as soon as the boss died.
We wiped once or twice clearing to the 2nd boss. A large part of this was the lack of AS, but the cleanse nerf also played a serious role. The revive debuff thing makes a HUGE difference. We managed to kill the 2nd boss without any permanent deaths, miraculously.
We then wiped, gloriously I might add, to the phase spiders before boss room. I anticipated that, of course. We lasted about 15 seconds I think. I pulled out AS to get past them.
Finally, I wanted to try the final boss without AS. As you might have guessed, we wiped within a minute, probably closer to 40 seconds. Yeah, then we went and killed her while I used AS, but that is hardly worth notice considering our gear far outstripping the place.
None of this testing is super useful except to say that Astral Shield is without a doubt the SINGLE REQUIRED POWER in the game. Every other ability, regardless of class, is interchangeable and optional. Astral Shield is absolutely required for any remotely difficult content, and the difference between using the power and not using it is astounding.
Also, all GFs will have to spec and gear to tank. Full Timeless and DPS spec GF gets crushed in a place as easy as Epic Spider. Our GF died a dozen+ times, at least 8 times more than anyone else.
Exactly, it's because this game is a Pseudo-Action Rpg.
Dodge is only good for the obvious delayed red circles.
The game throws too much unavoidable spammable dmg at you that 100% REQUIRES a broken dmg reduction source like Astral Shield.
They either need to make a large portion of all the dmg that comes at you avoidable, or just reduce all their dmg.
I mean really, basic mobs GAP CLOSERS will kill you, hello?
This is why I'll always loathe Mount Hotenow. XD
Actually i wonder what the other classes have as they're version of "righteousness", AS is not really godly, its not like with AS i can 100% finish a dungeon, or win in pvp. In pvp AS is virtually useless if you have a cw and rogue on you.
I am already having difficulty building divinity to keep AS up while avoiding the mob, and points to consider:
1. Not all have a good static group
2. not all have good gears.
3. consider the population of GWFs and CWs; now how many of them are experts in mob handling.
4. i dont see any buffing up on clerics with the AS, so how is this balanced?
wait a moment. I tought the reason to have healers, aka CLERICS in a game, would be
so that your partymembers didn't have to spam potions. If the devs wants cleric-healing
to be so bad that we also have to resort to healpotion spam in a group, i'm simply dropping
this game like a bad habbit.
That's just BS through and through.
Agreed. My husband has already quit his 60 cleric and is playing his 60 GF, and I've already switched to a 60 CW instead of my 60 cleric.
Clerics already have to spam the most potions out of any party member on live. With this change going through, the game is taking a nosedive.
I have a 60 rogue I am going to focus on if they break clerics worse.... IMHO, it sounds like they didn't even consider clerics, they just listened to whiney pvp'ers and said oh yea we here at Cryptic HATE clerics lets nerf them further in to the ground.
Bad enough they want you to tank but you cant last more than a few seconds with every mob beating and lining up their AOE attacks on you, and even if they drop you, guess what, when you get revived, you instantly gain all that agro back.
I am serious when I ask this, do they (the devs) even seriously play a cleric? Or is it just an after thought to throw a bone to those that like or want to play a cleric.
This is pretty sad.
Next time bring 2x cleric, 2x control wizards and 1 guardian fighter. That's the new stacking right? Right?
More seriously, many mechanics simply cannot be dodged or blocked. The gameplay balance is out of wack, and reminds me of "and we doubled it" BS from a certain other game company.
We need some dev's thoughts on how this is supposed to go down.
This is what the DEV specifically said
This seems to be their intent? That other classes dodge and use pots? Seems to be that they 'already' know how badly this is going to affect clerics and JUST DON'T CARE! Or else, I think we'd see a bigger benefit from our other spells and they wouldn't have choked the living daylights out of cleanse either.
Seems like the person who made these changes to clerics only works on the PvP side of things. Buffing all the DPS classes up and nerfing the cleric into oblivion. Because...*that's* balance.
Anyways, I have a CW I will be playing.
I hope that all goes well with you clerics stronger than I am to go on with these changes.
It is a fact that if people do not assist on the cleric then he will never die, and on un-coordinted/undergeared teams even assisting they will have a hard time killing a good cleric.
However when you face coordinated and same geared players clerics have a very hard time to stay alive or survive an assist train. Usually what happens is that someone kicks you out of AS then they CC you a couple of times and by the time you make it back to the AS you are almost dead (if not dead already) so on that regard i absolutely do not think that having AS up 100% of the time in pvp is overpowered or incorrect it actually encourages that the enemy team coordinates and assist.
IF you cant have AS up 100% of the time then you have to react, which sounds good and doable if you face melee clases only, but what happens when you face a Control Wizard? They can CC you from very long range, you cant reliable distinguis the animation so if you dont have AS up before the CC starts chances are that you will be dead before you can even use 1 ability.
So in a nutshell if you want to remove AS up 100% of the time in pvp then you have to also add diminishing returns to CC abilities and grant inmunity for some time as it si right now if you are not in a blushield a Cleric will die without being able to use a single hability.
What about PVP? With no CC diminishing returns and the fact that CW can CC from distance when you face a good coordinated group clerics will not stand a chance. you will get CC before you can cast Astral Shield and you will die before you can move because of subsequent CCs. Keep in mind i did said when facing organized groups, when you play against unorganized teams probably Clerics will be ok and will still be fun, but when it comes to competitive levels an all dps group will be the best setup, Yea pvp team mechanics can be adjusted and prolly you can have a guardian or something like that as bodyguard to help, but again without CC diminishing returns i dont see this working for cleric players.
I think your intention to force the clerics to actually think and choose when is the best way to cast Astral Shield are good, i think that on the pve side probably you moved on the right direction but as far as pvp goes you still need to tweak other things, i completely think you are plain and simple not caring about clerics viability in pvp, another example of this is the patch note when you openly accept that the new mechanics for assist points will affect healing clerics.
fascinating
Well....
Looking at the myriad of posts, together with the reports from experienced Clerics on the trial server:
I would say that your post is possibly the most inaccurate ever written on this forum. Even surpassing, in terms of direct and immediate inaccuracy, the many ones proclaiming wow to be the first mmo.
To achieve this remarkable status with just a one line post takes some doing, but you managed to achieve this feat with apparent ease.
Hats off, (or rather Shields off) to you.
"Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
..............not this one then.............