lurkersxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
One thing that keeps clerics from dungeons especially in pick ups is the loot drops. Why do I want to run a dungeon with people I don't know and have my loot taken by a class that can't use it? Being a healer is a way of games for some, having your loot jacked in most pugs is not. Let me be the one with all the pressure and keeping the others alive through their mistakes, that is fine. Just don't roll on HAMSTER you can't use, I know many of people who get burned by this and no longer pug.
The reason people take two clerics is not for the extra healing but for astral shield stacking and their crazy cleric agro, which means, the double astral shield makes them take no damage and the cleric agro means they draw every mob without fail, resulting in a flawless tank and healer set up so the three remaining party members can just laugh and deal out damage as they please.
Its also why no one wants a GF, because double cleric tanks better.
Hopefuly they (the development team) will eventualy see this and correct it. (HAHAHAHAHAHA *wipes teers*) But I think it is more than just AS they are stacking, although that is probably the biggest part.
I would certainly love to see my arenal of clerical powers go up though. Right now I call my Astral Shield the "Blue Circle of Never Dieing" and it's a beyond accurate name.
Do you find this to be true in T2's?
In T1's, Astral Shield will keep you up. T1's are easy. Many of the T2 dungeons, however, feature truly dangerous AoE attacks that can cover all of the shield, including knockdowns and such that can keep you from casting for extended periods. If you don't have a good control wizard or a second cleric, you can definitely be killed -- frequently.
- Snit (Cleric, Dragon Server)
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
In T1's, Astral Shield will keep you up. T1's are easy. Many of the T2 dungeons, however, feature truly dangerous AoE attacks that can cover all of the shield, including knockdowns and such that can keep you from casting for extended periods. If you don't have a good control wizard or a second cleric, you can definitely be killed -- frequently.
Well that's the trick now, isn't it?
Astral Shield is the Blue circle of never dieing, you just have to be smarter about placement and positioning. In T2 you can't simply stand in the circle but it's still by far the only thing that will keep you alive and that's the problem. Of course as the difficulty increases AS doesn't work as well but the other powers become equally less ineffective and that's the issue.
My coined term is merely an expression of how much of a requirement Astral Shield is and how much of a difference it makes even if the mobs make use of Astral Shield more difficult.
Your a 100% right. People like Dynamicdyanmite are clown shoes. This problem of a lack of healers is the most important issue in the game. If its not fixed fast by having more healing options to choose from they will lose their player base. We dont need another DPS class we need another Healer class!
Since dungeons require at least one cleric, it makes it real hard to even do them when you can't ever seem to get one. All day long using just the Q system there were issues with getting a cleric in group and without it was just a wipe fest on most of the bosses.
I have a lvl 60 10k GS cleric. I looove playing her but only with friends or guildies. With they way threat is in this game I'm not pugging, period.
In T1's, Astral Shield will keep you up. T1's are easy. Many of the T2 dungeons, however, feature truly dangerous AoE attacks that can cover all of the shield, including knockdowns and such that can keep you from casting for extended periods. If you don't have a good control wizard or a second cleric, you can definitely be killed -- frequently.
If you or your party are standing in the center of the AS this will be an issue. Smart people skirt the edge of the AS so any splats wont cover the whole shield. Some T2 mobs will also dispel AS if thier attacks pass through the center (Driders and Bristle Spiders come to mind) so theres another reason for not standing in center of the circle.
Played a Cleric to 60, was boring as hell, stealing all aggro in PVE, getting focused by everyone in PVP, Really boring class to solo with. Game needs dual builds for this class to be intreasting to play.
Off healers or alternate healers will relieve the "no healer" situations. Paladins and druids in PNP style can off heal, the paladin with minor heals and lay hands, druids with several minor to medium heals. Neither replace a cleric, however both may benefit your team enough in the right setup to not really care.
For instance GWFs, GFs, and a aura defensive paladin with minor heals, you might simply out tank the enemies.
As far as agro is concerned, the party's objective is babysit the cleric, then babysit the GF, after that kills adds and kill the boss (sometimes last 2 reverse). The cleric dies, everyone dies unless there is a paladin or druid to help finish the fight.
Off healers or alternate healers will relieve the "no healer" situations. Paladins and druids in PNP style can off heal, the paladin with minor heals and lay hands, druids with several minor to medium heals. Neither replace a cleric, however both may benefit your team enough in the right setup to not really care.
For instance GWFs, GFs, and a aura defensive paladin with minor heals, you might simply out tank the enemies.
As far as agro is concerned, the party's objective is babysit the cleric, then babysit the GF, after that kills adds and kill the boss (sometimes last 2 reverse). The cleric dies, everyone dies unless there is a paladin or druid to help finish the fight.
Once the game gets the 20 or so classes it deserves....we wont have the "dear god where are all the clerics?!" issue.
Well as my main is (always) a cleric I find it rather upsetting when I queue for a dungeon and end up with 4 rogues... this is really broken and rather annoying.
Personally I LOVE my cleric, I've just gotten bored because I already leveled a character and without alternate leveling zones it's rather dull.
Also wish I had a reliable group to play with, but I don't play well with others haha
Alot of truth in that post not to mention the propper group build. I have done a few dungeons with guildies on vent and the build they ran (that I healed in and ran all day from all the mob aggro- which wasnt peeled from me) made me not interested in PvE. PvP has recently started to suck with all the armor/weapon unique stones dropping extra damage. I dont care that they do, I just am at the point where I dont think this game is that fun to put forth a monetary investment to reach the goal. Im waiting for something better atm and just do the crafting atm til Cryptic fixes something worthwhile.
The thing that drives me nuts, is these little halfling rogues who like to run all over the place, and stack on top of other players.
Maybe people should realize, we have to target you, just like you have to target a mob.
Not to mention all the adds we have to solo tank, since everyone is just focused on the main boss.
It is very frustrating. We have to constantly run due to adds, target spazoids that like to run all over the place, and stack on top of each other (making it even harder to target an individual), we have to do damage to build divine power, in order to do the better heals, most of the heals are heal over time, and aren't a direct heal, and then you have idiots who speed run ahead of the rest of the group, wearing leather armor, who think they are some kind of a tank, and cry when they die.
Well I'm sorry my friend, no matter how good of a Cleric someone may be, they can't heal stupidity.
I think the way they're currently handling healgro is especially bad because when you're playing a healer you expect to be playing a support role. Or at least I do. I don't expect to be having to tank and deal with tons of mobs unless I accidentally way overheal before the tank can even cast an AoE taunt. I expect (and prefer) to be able to focus on how the fight is progressing and how I can support the party.
That's why I don't queue.
One month ago, yes, is true, there was a few healers, but now, there are many. My main character is a rogue, and my second character slot is a cleric, and like me, many people did for himself a cleric cause the rogues were a plague and nobody wanted do parties with us.
Was easy see 4 rogues in the queue, now is different.
If you bump the other spells then it heads towards the same result, you will have one spell/spec that will be OP and healing will be monotonous. Stacking AS means its 40% reduction as a base? Is that intended, or was balance centered around there only being 1 Shield up?
If it wasn't intended then the only nerf thats needed is a non stacking effect from AS. The heals arent enough to keep up the flat out healthpoint drop rate in some situations, when your the only cleric in a group, thats why its fun to play sometimes as you have to balance when to use/build Divinity and time your cooldowns.
I don't see the aggro as being too much of an issue. It can be fun with alot of mobs targeting you, if your group deals with the adds quickly. I agree, it maybe a bit over the top but if you drop too much threat then it will become boring to play a Cleric as you will most of the time just stand at the back, dropping a shield and a couple of heals(with the cooldown time on those its not exactly hammering the keys), no mobs will be attacking you.
If anything, keep it as it is but increase Guardian threat/shorten their cooldowns. Clerics threat to me is less of an issue than the Guardians problem, fix the Guardian's first and the clerics problem may be lessened if not gone.
The Astralshield issue and threat issue are linked, if they change both at the same time then you may also end up with healers that arent getting hit and have buffed heals, but at the same time there wont be as much healing needed because the damage will have been redirected to a class that takes much less damage, and away from multiple targets.
i play CW and it usually takes around 30-50 mints to find a group that has a cleric. sometimes i even miss the DD because of this, dunno if its the lack of DCs or the queue system.
But i have never ever blamed any DC for my death and i rarely see in one who does that in groups
DCs can be a bit boring because you only through down the blue circle and run from adds and also leveling a DC is extremely boring
I'm reaching level 40 with my cleric and all ready I can feel the pain everyone is going emo about. Especially in pvp.
Yes, we heal yes we can stack...but man these idiots abusing exploits with their rogues and gf is unbelievable.
I had a great handfull of rogues these past few days hit me over 4k+ per hit in a level 39 pvp match. That's WITH their At wills too. I couldn't believe my eyes. Here I am hitting them for 200's up to maybe 800 at best! Common man NW seriously? What is up with that?
Unbalanced isn't even the word to describe it anymore.
Saw a few wiz pull the same stunt with their encounters super stacking the HAMSTER out of it! Spamming spells like the regen isn't even existing o.O and then, out of know where, 2 guys leave in the middle of the battle, and 2 other guys pop up out of know where completely armed to the teeth, crushed our team to a bloody pulp! The scores were so bad...all deaths on our side with MAYBE at best a total of 6 kills. On their end it was all 4-15+ kills and 1 to zero death! Unreal!
Beta huh? This kind of stuff keeps rolling out the door when this game opens it's door, all I can say is ... pffff. (shakes head/uninstall).
You're doing it wrong. Learn to use your very first spell: Astral Seal.
Exactly. Good grief.
Quite like my DC but man some bits sucked to solo to cap. Than heavens for the queuing system - although like others I had > 1 hour waits (ie didn't happen) so I suspect a busted system.
Now I'm levelling a rogue and all this content I skipped cos I kept dying soloing on a DC is so easy. And it's really interesting seeing things from the other side when grouping. I suspect I will play my DC better for understanding another classes perspective.
~*~ Sparkles! ~*~
The MMO may change but the inventory tetris stays the same.
ive seen so many clerics. but not "good"
they focus on DPs, rather healing -.-
How do you think clerics heal? Clerics need DP in order for our heals to be good. Clerics don't really have a sit back and heal spell, well unless you count healing word but that is hard to hit targets with and usually is replaced with better spells(AS, FF, SB). Other than that it's Astral Seal and all we can do is put it on a target, you have to hit it.
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ausdoerrtMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Quite like my DC but man some bits sucked to solo to cap. Than heavens for the queuing system - although like others I had > 1 hour waits (ie didn't happen) so I suspect a busted system.
Now I'm levelling a rogue and all this content I skipped cos I kept dying soloing on a DC is so easy. And it's really interesting seeing things from the other side when grouping. I suspect I will play my DC better for understanding another classes perspective.
Funny, I've leveled my DC up to Icespire and so far it's the easiest class to solo, IMO. Unless you're referring to the stuff past lv50. Then again, I built him around damage/heals over buffs/support.
The game limits you to two characters, and only three of them are wanted in any content past Pirates.
Rogues get to kill bosses and CW kills the rest, whereas the Cleric baby sits a blue circle.
Neverwinter is touted as an 'Action MMO'.
Now ask yourself why people might not play a Cleric.
Basically, the healing circle was the laziest option the development team could have chosen for interesting healing in an action MMO. Go play a Tera Mystic, and tell me that playing a healer can't be action oriented.
They just didn't know what to do with it, so they did the absolutely most boring thing they could have done. I highly encourage any developer that might accidently come across this post to go and take a look at Mystics. It's what Action MMO healing should be. You don't need to COPY it, you just need to make the class more interesting than a stupid healing toggle and ground circles.
Maybe after they nerf stacking circles it will be more interesting. Who knows, I guess we'll see.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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ausdoerrtMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
^ I'm pretty sure they need to get rid of stacking EVERYTHING, not just AS. Hopefully incoming.
Funny, I've leveled my DC up to Icespire and so far it's the easiest class to solo, IMO. Unless you're referring to the stuff past lv50. Then again, I built him around damage/heals over buffs/support.
Yes I suspect I am just very bad at it. I find a rogue much easier to solo. Would love any gameplay tips. I just keep dying and it's not very fun.
~*~ Sparkles! ~*~
The MMO may change but the inventory tetris stays the same.
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turlamMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Since dungeons require at least one cleric, it makes it real hard to even do them when you can't ever seem to get one. All day long using just the Q system there were issues with getting a cleric in group and without it was just a wipe fest on most of the bosses.
No clue what you are talking about.... I reached 60 DC this past weekend, and its hard as **** to get a group at times. But, that may be partly due to getting kicked from groups because I absolutely REFUSE to exploit any dungeon. Not that is a REAL problem in this game and for another discussion.
From the perspective of a cleric, or at least me, even I sit in the dungeon que for a good bit at times. So im not sure if its the lack of clerics or something busted in the que system.
I can actually deal with the healgro assuming the rest of the group don't go completely braindead on me. Most ive been in lately have done it right...1 or 2 protecting the cleric when adds pop up the rest on the main target, then everyone pile on the main target when no adds present...oh and keep all legs and arms inside the blue circle at all times (or at least most of the time). I guess im saying it is broken..but not as broken as people say it is as far as agro. You can peel things off a cleric if the group works together right, of course there are times its beneficial to have things on the cleric...take throne of idris. Having the hulks on me tends to be more beneficial at the end then on someone facestabbing Idris. I drop astral, i drop hallowed, throw seal on idris and they pretty much take care of themselves while the annoying hulks just lumber after me while i powerslide and throw a few blasts to build divinity.
but yeah, back on topic, the population of clerics will go up too when they finally do this shard merge don't forget. Assuming they haven't driven us all off by then.
Same problem. When queing for a dungeon, it takes half an hour to proc. by that time either I log out, or go do something else.
Also, most of the groups you join don't have a clue what they are doing, ain't taking care of the adds rushing to us, ain't staying in our pretty sweet circles, ain't trying to revive us.
Yes I suspect I am just very bad at it. I find a rogue much easier to solo. Would love any gameplay tips. I just keep dying and it's not very fun.
I leveled a rogue to about 15, and I chugged more pots than as cleric until 40 (aside from dungeons). *shrug*
I'm maxing power and crit on my cleric, so any trash mobs in solo content die lightning-fast. Plus there's a feat that gives you heals as a % damage on a crit.
Solo loadout different from group loadout: prioritize stuff that gives you more DMG/DP/AP. Get the tank companion or the dog companion (knockdown is nice). DP Searing Light on tight groups of weak mobs, Daunting Light as primary DPS skill, Holy Word+AstralSeal for heals, FF if you need more heals.
Comments
Hopefuly they (the development team) will eventualy see this and correct it. (HAHAHAHAHAHA *wipes teers*) But I think it is more than just AS they are stacking, although that is probably the biggest part.
Do you find this to be true in T2's?
In T1's, Astral Shield will keep you up. T1's are easy. Many of the T2 dungeons, however, feature truly dangerous AoE attacks that can cover all of the shield, including knockdowns and such that can keep you from casting for extended periods. If you don't have a good control wizard or a second cleric, you can definitely be killed -- frequently.
Well that's the trick now, isn't it?
Astral Shield is the Blue circle of never dieing, you just have to be smarter about placement and positioning. In T2 you can't simply stand in the circle but it's still by far the only thing that will keep you alive and that's the problem. Of course as the difficulty increases AS doesn't work as well but the other powers become equally less ineffective and that's the issue.
My coined term is merely an expression of how much of a requirement Astral Shield is and how much of a difference it makes even if the mobs make use of Astral Shield more difficult.
If you or your party are standing in the center of the AS this will be an issue. Smart people skirt the edge of the AS so any splats wont cover the whole shield. Some T2 mobs will also dispel AS if thier attacks pass through the center (Driders and Bristle Spiders come to mind) so theres another reason for not standing in center of the circle.
For instance GWFs, GFs, and a aura defensive paladin with minor heals, you might simply out tank the enemies.
As far as agro is concerned, the party's objective is babysit the cleric, then babysit the GF, after that kills adds and kill the boss (sometimes last 2 reverse). The cleric dies, everyone dies unless there is a paladin or druid to help finish the fight.
Once the game gets the 20 or so classes it deserves....we wont have the "dear god where are all the clerics?!" issue.
foundry Call of the Blood - NW-DTAK6CXZ2
campaign Heart of Nature - NWS-DUKNH9PPZ
Alot of truth in that post not to mention the propper group build. I have done a few dungeons with guildies on vent and the build they ran (that I healed in and ran all day from all the mob aggro- which wasnt peeled from me) made me not interested in PvE. PvP has recently started to suck with all the armor/weapon unique stones dropping extra damage. I dont care that they do, I just am at the point where I dont think this game is that fun to put forth a monetary investment to reach the goal. Im waiting for something better atm and just do the crafting atm til Cryptic fixes something worthwhile.
The thing that drives me nuts, is these little halfling rogues who like to run all over the place, and stack on top of other players.
Maybe people should realize, we have to target you, just like you have to target a mob.
Not to mention all the adds we have to solo tank, since everyone is just focused on the main boss.
It is very frustrating. We have to constantly run due to adds, target spazoids that like to run all over the place, and stack on top of each other (making it even harder to target an individual), we have to do damage to build divine power, in order to do the better heals, most of the heals are heal over time, and aren't a direct heal, and then you have idiots who speed run ahead of the rest of the group, wearing leather armor, who think they are some kind of a tank, and cry when they die.
Well I'm sorry my friend, no matter how good of a Cleric someone may be, they can't heal stupidity.
That's why I don't queue.
Was easy see 4 rogues in the queue, now is different.
If you bump the other spells then it heads towards the same result, you will have one spell/spec that will be OP and healing will be monotonous. Stacking AS means its 40% reduction as a base? Is that intended, or was balance centered around there only being 1 Shield up?
If it wasn't intended then the only nerf thats needed is a non stacking effect from AS. The heals arent enough to keep up the flat out healthpoint drop rate in some situations, when your the only cleric in a group, thats why its fun to play sometimes as you have to balance when to use/build Divinity and time your cooldowns.
I don't see the aggro as being too much of an issue. It can be fun with alot of mobs targeting you, if your group deals with the adds quickly. I agree, it maybe a bit over the top but if you drop too much threat then it will become boring to play a Cleric as you will most of the time just stand at the back, dropping a shield and a couple of heals(with the cooldown time on those its not exactly hammering the keys), no mobs will be attacking you.
If anything, keep it as it is but increase Guardian threat/shorten their cooldowns. Clerics threat to me is less of an issue than the Guardians problem, fix the Guardian's first and the clerics problem may be lessened if not gone.
The Astralshield issue and threat issue are linked, if they change both at the same time then you may also end up with healers that arent getting hit and have buffed heals, but at the same time there wont be as much healing needed because the damage will have been redirected to a class that takes much less damage, and away from multiple targets.
You're doing it wrong. Learn to use your very first spell: Astral Seal.
But i have never ever blamed any DC for my death and i rarely see in one who does that in groups
DCs can be a bit boring because you only through down the blue circle and run from adds and also leveling a DC is extremely boring
Yes, we heal yes we can stack...but man these idiots abusing exploits with their rogues and gf is unbelievable.
I had a great handfull of rogues these past few days hit me over 4k+ per hit in a level 39 pvp match. That's WITH their At wills too. I couldn't believe my eyes. Here I am hitting them for 200's up to maybe 800 at best! Common man NW seriously? What is up with that?
Unbalanced isn't even the word to describe it anymore.
Saw a few wiz pull the same stunt with their encounters super stacking the HAMSTER out of it! Spamming spells like the regen isn't even existing o.O and then, out of know where, 2 guys leave in the middle of the battle, and 2 other guys pop up out of know where completely armed to the teeth, crushed our team to a bloody pulp! The scores were so bad...all deaths on our side with MAYBE at best a total of 6 kills. On their end it was all 4-15+ kills and 1 to zero death! Unreal!
Beta huh? This kind of stuff keeps rolling out the door when this game opens it's door, all I can say is ... pffff. (shakes head/uninstall).
Exactly. Good grief.
Quite like my DC but man some bits sucked to solo to cap. Than heavens for the queuing system - although like others I had > 1 hour waits (ie didn't happen) so I suspect a busted system.
Now I'm levelling a rogue and all this content I skipped cos I kept dying soloing on a DC is so easy. And it's really interesting seeing things from the other side when grouping. I suspect I will play my DC better for understanding another classes perspective.
The MMO may change but the inventory tetris stays the same.
they focus on DPs, rather healing -.-
How do you think clerics heal? Clerics need DP in order for our heals to be good. Clerics don't really have a sit back and heal spell, well unless you count healing word but that is hard to hit targets with and usually is replaced with better spells(AS, FF, SB). Other than that it's Astral Seal and all we can do is put it on a target, you have to hit it.
Funny, I've leveled my DC up to Icespire and so far it's the easiest class to solo, IMO. Unless you're referring to the stuff past lv50. Then again, I built him around damage/heals over buffs/support.
Rogues get to kill bosses and CW kills the rest, whereas the Cleric baby sits a blue circle.
Neverwinter is touted as an 'Action MMO'.
Now ask yourself why people might not play a Cleric.
Basically, the healing circle was the laziest option the development team could have chosen for interesting healing in an action MMO. Go play a Tera Mystic, and tell me that playing a healer can't be action oriented.
They just didn't know what to do with it, so they did the absolutely most boring thing they could have done. I highly encourage any developer that might accidently come across this post to go and take a look at Mystics. It's what Action MMO healing should be. You don't need to COPY it, you just need to make the class more interesting than a stupid healing toggle and ground circles.
Maybe after they nerf stacking circles it will be more interesting. Who knows, I guess we'll see.
I liked clerics in RaiderZ.
Yes I suspect I am just very bad at it. I find a rogue much easier to solo. Would love any gameplay tips. I just keep dying and it's not very fun.
The MMO may change but the inventory tetris stays the same.
No clue what you are talking about.... I reached 60 DC this past weekend, and its hard as **** to get a group at times. But, that may be partly due to getting kicked from groups because I absolutely REFUSE to exploit any dungeon. Not that is a REAL problem in this game and for another discussion.
Same problem. When queing for a dungeon, it takes half an hour to proc. by that time either I log out, or go do something else.
Also, most of the groups you join don't have a clue what they are doing, ain't taking care of the adds rushing to us, ain't staying in our pretty sweet circles, ain't trying to revive us.
Maybe we should get all of us who are like this and form a guild.....
I'm maxing power and crit on my cleric, so any trash mobs in solo content die lightning-fast. Plus there's a feat that gives you heals as a % damage on a crit.
Solo loadout different from group loadout: prioritize stuff that gives you more DMG/DP/AP. Get the tank companion or the dog companion (knockdown is nice). DP Searing Light on tight groups of weak mobs, Daunting Light as primary DPS skill, Holy Word+AstralSeal for heals, FF if you need more heals.