I am going to have to call BS here. How much money does LOL make? What are the cost? Same goes for PoE or any other game. Even WoW. We as players have no idea how much money a game makes. They might show figures but they don't show costs. Take a game that makes a billion bucks but has a cost of a billion bucks....net profit zero. We are in the dark as players about costs of these games
LoL had a tournament with a $3 million dollar prize, I'd say they are doing just fine.
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bushy808Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
But that's just it. It's not greedy or shady. It's business.
a box price or sub just puts a cost at a different point. Those crying "Pay to Win" fail to understand that you're paying to win with a sub, you're paying to win with a box price. Payment is involved no matter what. Under this logic you're "paying to win" by having an internet connection, even if all the zen store items were absolutely Free and didn't cost zen.
When I pay to win with a subscription, I have 100% of the same chances as every other player present.....
Here, he who pays, has the advantage. The F2P system plays off of the elitist in us all. It tugs at the voice inside saying "YES, be uber NOW!? of course! Strut in town w/ that cool stuff you got" but was it worth it, was $40 for that nice mount that is way faster than everyone elses as equal chances for me to 'win' as he? Or the encahnts you can buy, or the pets, or the massively increased quality profession assets (workers/tools)...When i pay $15 a month, i have access to all of that. and I KNOW im paying to win. Free 2 Play is the basis that only cosmetic items, of not consequence in game, should exist. The mounts are faster, the profession items are better, the ehchantss are better, the companions are better. YOU CAN ONLY GET BAGS WITH ZEN...jeez....in this game, two players are NOT equal if one spends money.
F2P games that offer you a converesion of game money to real money, are pay to win at the core. GW2 included. I can use REAL money, and transfer it into a medium that lets me shop the AH with out ever having to farm a single coin in the actual game. Here, you can use ZEN to buy AD and buy anything you want from the AH. That may not be the most cost effective way, but its there. So it is pay to win. Pay to get the best gear, not from the ZEN shop, but directly from the AH with your Zen to AD conversions.
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bushy808Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I will say, even though we are all on different points, and don't all agree on the same topics...this has been REAL constructive conversation....thank you everyone involved.
Here's the thing though Riven, as you and screamingpalm are pointing out (and I do get where you both are coming from), yes. if everyone pays one flat price and gets the same content. You get exactly that.
However that's not what F2P genre is about. F2P IS capitalism meets gaming. It introduces real economics cost/value, pricing etc. to a game system we've been used to as the more "socialist" model. And I don't mean that politically i mean that in the literal use of the economic term.
Now I'm not saying "if you don't like it GTFO" I'm not that crass. But I am saying that it is basically the way the F2P genre is. But that's also why there are competitors, as more and more F2P games come out, you'll have varying options. Do I wish somethings were cheaper in the Zen store? Sure.
Do I think the company is evil, greedy, immoral and trying to rake me over a barrel? No. Everyone's mileage may vary. I'm making the case for my point of view.
For the most part everyone else is thankfully sharing in the civility of the debate, even if I am a so-called "tool" *wink*
The other problem with reducing everything to a monetary value like this, and introducing real world economics into the game, is that it has real effects on gameplay and quality of the game. The recent nerf to professions mat nodes is a good example of this (The Foundry even moreso in limiting creative ability to retain tight controls of the business model). When the company becomes greedy, gameplay CAN suffer from it. This is where I have most of my issues with this style of model. While I'm no fan of P2W and honestly MMO's in general, I can live with someone paying for an advantage in a non-competitive environment (where the content is already laughably easy as it is ). I also have no problem with a company trying to make a profit or an honest buck (keyword honest). It is just the deception and psychological/marketing tools replacing the game itself that I find distasteful.
That's obviously not what people mean by 'pay to win'.
Derp.
Of course not. What people mean by 'pay to win' is 'I don't want to pay.'
Derp.
Pay to win has become a very subjective thing. If power gain items are locked behind a paywall with no ingame means to achieve them, then you have pay to win. Because you HAVE to pay to get progression in such a system. That isn't the case with this game no matter how loud people cry. The worst people can say about this game (without just being wrong) is that the game is 'pay to speed,' pay to reduce grind. Which is the case with all F2P games.... well all MMOs now actually.
I will say, even though we are all on different points, and don't all agree on the same topics...this has been REAL constructive conversation....thank you everyone involved.
Agreed. Thank you all for lending your arguments. Especially screamingpalm and Riven84. And I mean that sincerely.
Foundry author of the "Red Rum Runners" Campaign. Part 1: "WANTED: Physical Labor Needed" and Part 2: "Worst Employer Ever!"
Unfortunately nowadays younger or more recent gamers are a bit impatient.
What you said ^^
Saving for something you want now. My generation is horrible for it. They just grab a credit card and go for it. **** the in two months putting it down and never using it again. Or being stuck in that cell contract :P
please stop comparing NW to LoL, LoL has 10+ million active users, and they sell skins for 15 Euro/USD and more so don't try to tell me they don't want my cash.
People just have a problem understanding that F2P means you don't have to pay to play. you CAN pay to get to the endgame content faster, but to be honest I'm enjoying my content as it is right now, so I don't feel like I need to get to endgame faster. And like the initial post described, if you feel ripped off because some mounts are very hard to get unless you pay, just buy ZEN for 5-10$ a month and it'll be pretty much the same as a P2P.
The fact that bags and respeccing costs real money is pretty much the only negative point about this model, and even then it is kind of understandable. Just think how much you would've spent if you went to the movies instead of Playing NW, you would be broke before getting to endgame content.
The only reason games go F2P nowadays is to be more accessible to new players, however because they are F2P they need to make up for that in a bit more expensive items. If you understand a little bit about how making a MMO works you would understand that.
I've been playing Champions Online, Star Trek Online, and now Neverwinter since each game came out. In each I've not been shy about spending money to make my play more pleasurable, as the blue title indicates.
The total I've spent over the last four years to play all three of these games is less than 18 months of WoW cost me, including the required purchases to enter that game; and the longer I play, the more the savings skew toward these games. In these games you buy stuff; in sub games you rent it.
Your first month or two cost more here, that's true; your sixth, 12th, and 18th months cost far, far less.
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showyofaceduckMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 20Arc User
edited June 2013
Euthymia, you'd have to be able to buy a significant advantage to be pay2win.
OT: While the Zen store prices may seem ridiculous (if you're paying IRL money), 2000 Zen is actually really easy to earn in the game itself, just have to have a clear head and not buy/sell things at stupid prices. Even the quest grinder can spend his gold on Jeweled Idols in trade chats to earn some extra AD.
lol, your logic is lost on the fanbois. His math was so you can buy a mount. Not so you can aqquire somethign that your going to need on a fairly regular basis if you want to continue, your crafting, or whatever pay wall you have reached. This game is loaded with Free content, that ungracefully slam you face first into a pay wall.
Hey, you like crafting? Guess what, there are much higher quality crafters/tools (assets) that you can use to create even more powwerful items...oh wait, 100% of that content is locked behind a pay wall. And YES, i can legitimately say PAY WALL. Because even if I do their 'earn it on my own' method. I am buying the ZEN from someone who DID pay. So he may not have paid for the same pay wall your encountering, but your using the $/euro he spent to aquire that ZEN to do away with your pay wall.
Like that pet of yours? It only goes to lvl 15 because we havn't implimented a system that lets your pet scale with you. BUT....we do have some incredibly high priced single use only companions that can pass that limitation with NO problem...pay up to succesfully circumvent your most recent pay wall.
HEY! like that cool horse that guy just chased you down in pvp with, going more than twice the mount speed you are? Guess how you can get a mount just like his?! guess...really, i bet you will never figure it out...oh wait. Another pay wall. Pay up and you can do better than him. Or you can earn it, by upgrading yoru starter horse. Which when all is said and done, cost you 7.62MILLION AD.
This game's version of 'earn it with ingame currency' is so incredibly imbalanced. Most other FTPs that use a ingame currency conversion to $ currency, doesn't have such a huge gap as Neverwinter.
Do your research into other games and how much they charge for similar content before you defend this company. If you have EVER EVER EVER played a PWI game in the past, especially Perfect World, you will be punched in the face with PAY TO WIN...or play for free and enjoy 30% of the overall game's content.
You seem unhappy. Perhaps you should find a different game to qq on forums about.
Then charge a box price or sub if there are worries about covering costs. No one should feel pressured or guilty to support a risky, greedy, and shady F2P gamble, if that is what it is.
Hi, guess what. They made this game F2P, you don't like it no one is forcing you to play. You wanna buy a box, pay a monthly sub? Go fn do it, just stop crying all over these forums.
I'll spend my 5$ on beer and spicy food, but your post is nice OP.
Aaaaaanyway, I can't wait to see the new class!
...maybe enough rogues will get nerdboners over it and reroll, so we can have a granule more balance in PvP.
"Pugs are like Saturday Night Live Sketches.
Most of em' are awful, some of em are decent, and a few are pretty good."
Comments
LoL had a tournament with a $3 million dollar prize, I'd say they are doing just fine.
When I pay to win with a subscription, I have 100% of the same chances as every other player present.....
Here, he who pays, has the advantage. The F2P system plays off of the elitist in us all. It tugs at the voice inside saying "YES, be uber NOW!? of course! Strut in town w/ that cool stuff you got" but was it worth it, was $40 for that nice mount that is way faster than everyone elses as equal chances for me to 'win' as he? Or the encahnts you can buy, or the pets, or the massively increased quality profession assets (workers/tools)...When i pay $15 a month, i have access to all of that. and I KNOW im paying to win. Free 2 Play is the basis that only cosmetic items, of not consequence in game, should exist. The mounts are faster, the profession items are better, the ehchantss are better, the companions are better. YOU CAN ONLY GET BAGS WITH ZEN...jeez....in this game, two players are NOT equal if one spends money.
F2P games that offer you a converesion of game money to real money, are pay to win at the core. GW2 included. I can use REAL money, and transfer it into a medium that lets me shop the AH with out ever having to farm a single coin in the actual game. Here, you can use ZEN to buy AD and buy anything you want from the AH. That may not be the most cost effective way, but its there. So it is pay to win. Pay to get the best gear, not from the ZEN shop, but directly from the AH with your Zen to AD conversions.
The other problem with reducing everything to a monetary value like this, and introducing real world economics into the game, is that it has real effects on gameplay and quality of the game. The recent nerf to professions mat nodes is a good example of this (The Foundry even moreso in limiting creative ability to retain tight controls of the business model). When the company becomes greedy, gameplay CAN suffer from it. This is where I have most of my issues with this style of model. While I'm no fan of P2W and honestly MMO's in general, I can live with someone paying for an advantage in a non-competitive environment (where the content is already laughably easy as it is
Of course not. What people mean by 'pay to win' is 'I don't want to pay.'
Derp.
Pay to win has become a very subjective thing. If power gain items are locked behind a paywall with no ingame means to achieve them, then you have pay to win. Because you HAVE to pay to get progression in such a system. That isn't the case with this game no matter how loud people cry. The worst people can say about this game (without just being wrong) is that the game is 'pay to speed,' pay to reduce grind. Which is the case with all F2P games.... well all MMOs now actually.
Agreed. Thank you all for lending your arguments. Especially screamingpalm and Riven84. And I mean that sincerely.
What you said ^^
Saving for something you want now. My generation is horrible for it. They just grab a credit card and go for it. **** the in two months putting it down and never using it again. Or being stuck in that cell contract :P
It's called adoption.
woooooooooooooohoooooo!
droooooolling!
I want this class in NW.
People just have a problem understanding that F2P means you don't have to pay to play. you CAN pay to get to the endgame content faster, but to be honest I'm enjoying my content as it is right now, so I don't feel like I need to get to endgame faster. And like the initial post described, if you feel ripped off because some mounts are very hard to get unless you pay, just buy ZEN for 5-10$ a month and it'll be pretty much the same as a P2P.
The fact that bags and respeccing costs real money is pretty much the only negative point about this model, and even then it is kind of understandable. Just think how much you would've spent if you went to the movies instead of Playing NW, you would be broke before getting to endgame content.
The only reason games go F2P nowadays is to be more accessible to new players, however because they are F2P they need to make up for that in a bit more expensive items. If you understand a little bit about how making a MMO works you would understand that.
"wut"
Then scanned the rest of the op for coherent sentence structure and found it....wanting...
Seriously dude. Terrible analogy, terrible.
The total I've spent over the last four years to play all three of these games is less than 18 months of WoW cost me, including the required purchases to enter that game; and the longer I play, the more the savings skew toward these games. In these games you buy stuff; in sub games you rent it.
Your first month or two cost more here, that's true; your sixth, 12th, and 18th months cost far, far less.
OT: While the Zen store prices may seem ridiculous (if you're paying IRL money), 2000 Zen is actually really easy to earn in the game itself, just have to have a clear head and not buy/sell things at stupid prices. Even the quest grinder can spend his gold on Jeweled Idols in trade chats to earn some extra AD.
You seem unhappy. Perhaps you should find a different game to qq on forums about.
Hi, guess what. They made this game F2P, you don't like it no one is forcing you to play. You wanna buy a box, pay a monthly sub? Go fn do it, just stop crying all over these forums.
Aaaaaanyway, I can't wait to see the new class!
...maybe enough rogues will get nerdboners over it and reroll, so we can have a granule more balance in PvP.
Most of em' are awful, some of em are decent, and a few are pretty good."