I'd be happier with respecs costing $3 than $6 as I recently respecced my GWF cause I messed him up on my initial rolling. Did it set back my goal for Slyblade Kobold? Yes. But I still respecced him.
I wish they had done something similar to their feat system where it scaled the price based on level. It would have been harder with the Zen shop but they could have done something like sell 3 tiers of respec that cost different amounts and whatever level you are required a certain one. That way if you are lvl60 you get the $6 one, but if you are say lvl20, you might only have to buy the tier 1 respec which is only $2.
I wish they had done something similar to their feat system where it scaled the price based on level. It would have been harder with the Zen shop but they could have done something like sell 3 tiers of respec that cost different amounts and whatever level you are required a certain one. That way if you are lvl60 you get the $6 one, but if you are say lvl20, you might only have to buy the tier 1 respec which is only $2.
the truth is that you'll really rarely be respeccing. But in my case I had totally borked my GWF cause I put points in skills that I eventually came to terms with that weren't useful. and had also put feats that corresponded with them (also spread the feats out too much) So I thought it was time for a respec. So was the respec plausible? Yes. Though I still wish they were $3. I'd be more likely to spend $6 for 2 respecs vs $6 for 1.
Foundry author of the "Red Rum Runners" Campaign. Part 1: "WANTED: Physical Labor Needed" and Part 2: "Worst Employer Ever!"
You want to explain the cash shop in gardening terms? Fine, I'll bite.
In other MMOs, crafters can go out into the world, collect cloth and other supplies, then come back to town and create bags to sell to other players. This would be like you going out and buying seeds, then coming home to plant your garden, and nurturing it as it grows the tomatoes you wish to eat. That is, I agree, a rewarding experience.
In Neverwinter, there is no tailoring of any kind, and the only way to get bags is to buy them from the cash shop, using generic Astral Diamonds or Zen. The equivalent of that, in gardening terms, would be going to the store and buying tomatoes off the shelf, using generic money you made at your "day job" (be that PvP, dungeon running, etc.)
In essence, they have taken away your ability to have your own garden, and grow your own vegetables.
I thank you, on behalf of your opponents, for providing us with such a fitting analogy to use in our own argument against cash shops.
-Travail.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
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arntoyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I wish they had done something similar to their feat system where it scaled the price based on level. It would have been harder with the Zen shop but they could have done something like sell 3 tiers of respec that cost different amounts and whatever level you are required a certain one. That way if you are lvl60 you get the $6 one, but if you are say lvl20, you might only have to buy the tier 1 respec which is only $2.
Whereas in a P2P game i can respec with ingame money as many times as i want to test out the best spec, which i cant in a F2P game without spending a fortune in rl money.
Its those small things that are "extra" that people use the most, like bags, respecs, change character looks, crafting, dyes, costumes etc that costs alot.
You dont "need" them, but 90% of the players want them, and generally F2P games develop their game to make it so players feel forced to buy them, clogging up your bags, make ugly armors that needs dyes, best looking gearskins found in item shop, limited information on skills so you need to buy respec stones, mounts that are just a little bit faster then the previous released one.
Alot of stuff is also "hidden" so you dont realize you need to buy stuff from the item shop before you have already spent alot of time in it, like craftingtools/henchmen
The only thing im fine with is gearskins, the rest is just so irritating that i cant find the best stuff in the game by using my time and skill to get it but instead have to fork up my wallet.
You want to explain the cash shop in gardening terms? Fine, I'll bite.
In other MMOs, crafters can go out into the world, collect cloth and other supplies, then come back to town and create bags to sell to other players. This would be like you going out and buying seeds, then coming home to plant your garden, and nurturing it as it grows the tomatoes you wish to eat. That is, I agree, a rewarding experience.
In Neverwinter, there is no tailoring of any kind, and the only way to get bags is to buy them from the cash shop, using generic Astral Diamonds or Zen. The equivalent of that, in gardening terms, would be going to the store and buying tomatoes off the shelf, using generic money you made at your "day job" (be that PvP, dungeon running, etc.)
In essence, they have taken away your ability to have your own garden, and grow your own vegetables, turning you from a producer into a consumer.
I thank you, on behalf of your opponents, for providing us with such a fitting analogy to use in our own argument against cash shops.
-Travail.
Fun Fact: Farmers are also consumers. Just where do you think they get crop seeds from?
A large inventory is a convenience. Nothing more. It does not break the game and is actually an efficient means of economy control. If you were hoarding blues and purples in your inventory and then dumped them all on the market at the same time.
Foundry author of the "Red Rum Runners" Campaign. Part 1: "WANTED: Physical Labor Needed" and Part 2: "Worst Employer Ever!"
Fun Fact: Farmers are also consumers. Just where do you think they get crop seeds from?
A large inventory is a convenience. Nothing more. It does not break the game and is actually an efficient means of economy control. If you were hoarding blues and purples in your inventory and then dumped them all on the market at the same time.
You missed my point. Where is the bag making profession in Neverwinter? It doesn't exist. Instead, we are forced to go farm astral diamonds for a bit, then purchase bags from the cash shop. Or pony up the cash, of course.
There is also no alchemy, because Cryptic/PWE prefer us to spend astral diamonds on our potions, instead of crafting them ourselves. The cash grab mentality of this company has hurt the crafting system in Neverwinter, any way you look at it. It is far less full and robust that it could have been, had it not been for policies which were implemented to encourage us to spend generic Zen/AD/cash on items, instead of crafting them ourselves.
-Travail.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
The whole point is that everyone is going "boooooo look at this! They're charging me money for this!"
OK fine. Lets say they didn't charge money for that, now, what should they charge money for?
Do you want to know why TV Executives cancel TV shows you and I like?
Because they aren't making the company (i.e. TV Channel) money.
They're a business. They are there to provide a service, that service is expected to turn a profit.
It works the same way with Games. Especially in F2P MMO's.
Look at all the billable hours goes into a game like this. Graphics Designers, coders, community managers, voice actors, writers. Those people need to eat, and have more than likely already been paid from a budget already requisitioned and distributed.
But then you have ongoing costs an future costs PLUS the desire to make a profit.
Foundry author of the "Red Rum Runners" Campaign. Part 1: "WANTED: Physical Labor Needed" and Part 2: "Worst Employer Ever!"
To Touch on the Survey topic, I originally mentioned. Not knowing specifics, PWE probably has a sales team that works with Peanut Labs which then negotiate rates for surveys to be featured on PWE for their consumer base to voluntarily take part in.
the Marketing and Research companies basically PAY peanut labs to help them find survey takers and PWE takes a cut, the amount of ZEN you earn will be less than the amount PWE earns but everyone basically wins, you take a survey which helps a marketing/research product and you get zen. Whether or not the amount of time it took you to take said survey is worth the zen is up to you.
I personally do find them fun and interesting but I used to work in Public Relations / Marketing for like 5 years, long ago in another lifetime. So seeing how company X is testing out new colors and logo design is kinda neat.
With regards to the person I quoted and the person they're quoting. Yes that person doesn't understand that the zen you buy for AD is Zen someone else purchases (and that person is getting your AD). The economy here started with someone "Patient Zero" buying ZEN and then deciding to sell it for AD.
There were perhaps gentler ways to inform him of how it works however.
Foundry author of the "Red Rum Runners" Campaign. Part 1: "WANTED: Physical Labor Needed" and Part 2: "Worst Employer Ever!"
The whole point is that everyone is going "boooooo look at this! They're charging me money for this!"
OK fine. Lets say they didn't charge money for that, now, what should they charge money for?
Do you want to know why TV Executives cancel TV shows you and I like?
Because they aren't making the company (i.e. TV Channel) money.
They're a business. They are there to provide a service, that service is expected to turn a profit.
It works the same way with Games. Especially in F2P MMO's.
Look at all the billable hours goes into a game like this. Graphics Designers, coders, community managers, voice actors, writers. Those people need to eat, and have more than likely already been paid from a budget already requisitioned and distributed.
But then you have ongoing costs an future costs PLUS the desire to make a profit.
Look to LoL as an extremely successful model, or PoE. Both are making loads of cash without trying to fleece their customers by overcharging and monetizing as much as they possibly can.
Look to LoL as an extremely successful model, or PoE. Both are making loads of cash without trying to fleece their customers by overcharging and monetizing as much as they possibly can.
I'm sorry, but in order to access the forums, you'll need to buy the forum access token. BUY NOW! 1 post token for 100 Zen or 12 for 1000 Zen!
Look to LoL as an extremely successful model, or PoE. Both are making loads of cash without trying to fleece their customers by overcharging and monetizing as much as they possibly can.
This just goes to the notion of competitive marketplace and people being comfortable charging for different things at different rates.
It's not fleecing. Its price quoting.
Lumberjack 1 will cut down X number of Trees for Y Dollars as long as Total time doesn't exceed Z hours. Then its B Dollars an hour after that.
Lumberjack 2 will cut down X number of trees for YY Dollars. Period.
It doesn't mean Lumberjack 2 is less or more successful. Sometimes it has to do with how successful either lumberjack is at marketing, and also the range of clientele either lumberjack is going for.
Just because PWE says "hey lets charge X for Y" doesn't mean they're fleecing you. Its the pricing plan they were comfortable with. Other games decided on different pricing plans.
Simple as that.
Foundry author of the "Red Rum Runners" Campaign. Part 1: "WANTED: Physical Labor Needed" and Part 2: "Worst Employer Ever!"
This just goes to the notion of competitive marketplace and people being comfortable charging for different things at different rates.
It's not fleecing. Its price quoting.
Lumberjack 1 will cut down X number of Trees for Y Dollars as long as Total time doesn't exceed Z hours. Then its B Dollars an hour after that.
Lumberjack 2 will cut down X number of trees for YY Dollars. Period.
It doesn't mean Lumberjack 2 is less or more successful. Sometimes it has to do with how successful either lumberjack is at marketing, and also the range of clientele either lumberjack is going for.
Just because PWE says "hey lets charge X for Y" doesn't mean they're fleecing you. Its the pricing plan they were comfortable with. Other games decided on different pricing plans.
Simple as that.
Would make sense if you substituted one of the lumberjacks for say, a casino. One F2P model is completely cosmetic options and never tries to trick you or force you into buying anything, the other model plays off of those obsessive, compulsive behaviors and also charges for basic features. Some people are comfortable with that, I prefer to support companies that I do not feel are forcing my hand.
At least, that was my experience with PoE v. LOTRO/NW.
With regards to the person I quoted and the person they're quoting. Yes that person doesn't understand that the zen you buy for AD is Zen someone else purchases (and that person is getting your AD). The economy here started with someone "Patient Zero" buying ZEN and then deciding to sell it for AD.
Oh I understand perfectly. I was saying that any Zen added to the economy via survey WASN'T bought via player cash. If "free" is Zen that isn't bought by you to traded to you by someone who did buy it, then yes that Zen was "free." All you are doing as a player is giving your time to work on currency (which is basically the same outcome as playing the game itself).
All the people who spend cash on Zen are doing is adding additional Zen to the economy in a way that eases the exchange rate (thus my comment on fluctuation).
You both misunderstood but at least you didn't compound your error by putting your foot throat deep down your mouth... as the person you quoted had done. Slow clap for Riven.
Oh I understand perfectly. I was saying that any Zen added to the economy via survey WASN'T bought via player cash. If "free" is Zen that isn't bought by you to traded to you by someone who did buy it, then yes that Zen was "free." All you are doing as a player is giving your time to work on currency (which is basically the same outcome as playing the game itself).
All the people who spend cash on Zen are doing is adding additional Zen to the economy in a way that eases the exchange rate (thus my comment on fluctuation).
You both misunderstood but at least you didn't compound your error by putting your foot throat deep... as the person you quoted had done. Slow clap for Riven.
I offer my apologies regarding my assumption.
Foundry author of the "Red Rum Runners" Campaign. Part 1: "WANTED: Physical Labor Needed" and Part 2: "Worst Employer Ever!"
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vatashaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Look to LoL as an extremely successful model, or PoE. Both are making loads of cash without trying to fleece their customers by overcharging and monetizing as much as they possibly can.
I am going to have to call BS here. How much money does LOL make? What are the cost? Same goes for PoE or any other game. Even WoW. We as players have no idea how much money a game makes. They might show figures but they don't show costs. Take a game that makes a billion bucks but has a cost of a billion bucks....net profit zero. We are in the dark as players about costs of these games
Yeah this isn't true... the surveys don't require the purchase of Zen, and they were brought up in the original post. A lot of people do them apparently.
And either way, the game is free. All Zen exchange fluctuation means is that what you get for playing for free can very in speed.
Have you tried the surveys? Firstly, the reward isn't anywhere near balanced. You get 10-20 zen for filling out a survey that has a 1 in 20 chance of actually paying out.
I've done tons of surveys for Champions Online and other games. They always wait until you've finished the survey to give you a page saying "Sorry you're not eligible. You gave away all this information or wasting time making answers up for absolutely nothing."
Plus you forget that this game is a world wide thing. I'm in Canada and most of those free offers either
1. Aren't actually free
2. Are only available to people IN the US.
An option only available to what will end up being a small portion of the game's population and is sketchy at best, is not a valid option. Your argument is moot.
Besides, the vast majority of the zen floating around in the game is purchased, with real money (or maybe credit), by a player.
I am going to have to call BS here. How much money does LOL make? What are the cost? Same goes for PoE or any other game. Even WoW. We as players have no idea how much money a game makes. They might show figures but they don't show costs. Take a game that makes a billion bucks but has a cost of a billion bucks....net profit zero. We are in the dark as players about costs of these games
It's safe to assume they're making comfortable amounts of profits, otherwise the game would have shut down or they would have changed their business model.
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bushy808Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yey, a tedious grind for AD so i can get Zen for 1 item. And some of them are needed to nejoy all things in the game, like crafting tools.
Where in a P2P i only need time to get all items, including the rare ones
lol, your logic is lost on the fanbois. His math was so you can buy a mount. Not so you can aqquire somethign that your going to need on a fairly regular basis if you want to continue, your crafting, or whatever pay wall you have reached. This game is loaded with Free content, that ungracefully slam you face first into a pay wall.
Hey, you like crafting? Guess what, there are much higher quality crafters/tools (assets) that you can use to create even more powwerful items...oh wait, 100% of that content is locked behind a pay wall. And YES, i can legitimately say PAY WALL. Because even if I do their 'earn it on my own' method. I am buying the ZEN from someone who DID pay. So he may not have paid for the same pay wall your encountering, but your using the $/euro he spent to aquire that ZEN to do away with your pay wall.
Like that pet of yours? It only goes to lvl 15 because we havn't implimented a system that lets your pet scale with you. BUT....we do have some incredibly high priced single use only companions that can pass that limitation with NO problem...pay up to succesfully circumvent your most recent pay wall.
HEY! like that cool horse that guy just chased you down in pvp with, going more than twice the mount speed you are? Guess how you can get a mount just like his?! guess...really, i bet you will never figure it out...oh wait. Another pay wall. Pay up and you can do better than him. Or you can earn it, by upgrading yoru starter horse. Which when all is said and done, cost you 7.62MILLION AD.
This game's version of 'earn it with ingame currency' is so incredibly imbalanced. Most other FTPs that use a ingame currency conversion to $ currency, doesn't have such a huge gap as Neverwinter.
Do your research into other games and how much they charge for similar content before you defend this company. If you have EVER EVER EVER played a PWI game in the past, especially Perfect World, you will be punched in the face with PAY TO WIN...or play for free and enjoy 30% of the overall game's content.
lol, your logic is lost on the fanbois. His math was so you can buy a mount. Not so you can aqquire somethign that your going to need on a fairly regular basis if you want to continue, your crafting, or whatever pay wall you have reached. This game is loaded with Free content, that ungracefully slam you face first into a pay wall.
Hey, you like crafting? Guess what, there are much higher quality crafters/tools (assets) that you can use to create even more powwerful items...oh wait, 100% of that content is locked behind a pay wall. And YES, i can legitimately say PAY WALL. Because even if I do their 'earn it on my own' method. I am buying the ZEN from someone who DID pay. So he may not have paid for the same pay wall your encountering, but your using the $/euro he spent to aquire that ZEN to do away with your pay wall.
Like that pet of yours? It only goes to lvl 15 because we havn't implimented a system that lets your pet scale with you. BUT....we do have some incredibly high priced single use only companions that can pass that limitation with NO problem...pay up to succesfully circumvent your most recent pay wall.
HEY! like that cool horse that guy just chased you down in pvp with, going more than twice the mount speed you are? Guess how you can get a mount just like his?! guess...really, i bet you will never figure it out...oh wait. Another pay wall. Pay up and you can do better than him. Or you can earn it, by upgrading yoru starter horse. Which when all is said and done, cost you 7.62MILLION AD.
This game's version of 'earn it with ingame currency' is so incredibly imbalanced. Most other FTPs that use a ingame currency conversion to $ currency, doesn't have such a huge gap as Neverwinter.
Do your research into other games and how much they charge for similar content before you defend this company. If you have EVER EVER EVER played a PWI game in the past, especially Perfect World, you will be punched in the face with PAY TO WIN...or play for free and enjoy 30% of the overall game's content.
But isn't that the point? Isn't that what capitalism and microtransactions are all about?
The notion that a Free To Play game being truly free is a misnomer invented by someone with irrational delusions. The game certainly isn't free for PWE to maintain.
Foundry author of the "Red Rum Runners" Campaign. Part 1: "WANTED: Physical Labor Needed" and Part 2: "Worst Employer Ever!"
But isn't that the point? Isn't that what capitalism and microtransactions are all about?
The notion that a Free To Play game being truly free is a misnomer invented by someone with irrational delusions. The game certainly isn't free for PWE to maintain.
Then charge a box price or sub if there are worries about covering costs. No one should feel pressured or guilty to support a risky, greedy, and shady F2P gamble, if that is what it is.
Then charge a box price or sub if there are worries about covering costs. No one should feel pressured or guilty to support a risky, greedy, and shady F2P gamble, if that is what it is.
But that's just it. It's not greedy or shady. It's business.
a box price or sub just puts a cost at a different point. Those crying "Pay to Win" fail to understand that you're paying to win with a sub, you're paying to win with a box price. Payment is involved no matter what. Under this logic you're "paying to win" by having an internet connection, even if all the zen store items were absolutely Free and didn't cost zen.
Foundry author of the "Red Rum Runners" Campaign. Part 1: "WANTED: Physical Labor Needed" and Part 2: "Worst Employer Ever!"
NWO isn't even 30 days old yet to the general public.
Yes there are $40 mounts, $20 dollar companions. So what?
As far as I can tell PWE is one of the FEW F2P MMO providers that not only allow you to earn the cash shop currency in game for FREE but they also allow you to do so via other methods (seriously those surveys are actually kinda fun).
OK Great, but you're probably saying "I want golden goose NOW daddy!" Well Veruca Salt, whatever you do, never take up Gardening or be expecting a baby.
Did you know, that if you spent $5 a month on Zen (that's 500 zen) + sold coffers of wonderous enchantments for aroun 30k AD every 7 days amongst two character accounts (assuming you're going the complete F2P account number route) you' have....
~30k AD = 100 zen (give or take 5k) x 2 zccounts = 60k AD, = 200 zen every week.
200zen x 3 weeks (1 month) = 600zen.
600zen x 2 months = 1200zen + $5.00 investment every month for 2 months = 2200 zen.
Well congratulations you now have enough to buy that blue companion or mount. And it only took the BARE MINIMUM of effort.
I mean here's the question, do you want to play all the content now? or do you want to still be playing after 2 months?
Set a goal. Strive to achieve it.
I just started a garden IRL yesterday. I didn't sit there and look at the soil and go "GROWWWWWWWWW! COME ONNNNNNN!"
I'm gonna have veggies in 3/4 months. I'm gonna eat the heck out of those veggies.
I'm also going to probably be having a bear mount in 3/4 months. And I'm gonna prance the heck out of it in PE.
a five dollar a month voluntary contribution to the zen store helps NWO stay open. You could do more, accelerating your timeline, but its up to you. You could even do $5 every OTHER month.
Eventually you'll get that $40 mount. You're gonna feel awesome.
Eeew! Veggies.....Yes, that's all I got outta that? Just kidding.
But that's just it. It's not greedy or shady. It's business.
a box price or sub just puts a cost at a different point. Those crying "Pay to Win" fail to understand that you're paying to win with a sub, you're paying to win with a box price. Payment is involved no matter what. Under this logic you're "paying to win" by having an internet connection, even if all the zen store items were absolutely Free and didn't cost zen.
If everyone is paying the same price, I'm not sure how that would be P2W. I feel like this model of F2P is a bit shady and dishonest. It capitalizes on certain behaviors instead of being upfront, and hits the player with various "walls" after they are already invested (the hook). And we haven't even seen how they will handle expansions and future content yet (I can take a guess how it will go, however).
It is a completely different type of model than PoE's F2P (of which I was a supporter btw).
Then charge a box price or sub if there are worries about covering costs. No one should feel pressured or guilty to support a risky, greedy, and shady F2P gamble, if that is what it is.
That's obviously not what people mean by 'pay to win'.
Derp.
*grin*
Here's the thing though Riven, as you and screamingpalm are pointing out (and I do get where you both are coming from), yes. if everyone pays one flat price and gets the same content. You get exactly that.
However that's not what F2P genre is about. F2P IS capitalism meets gaming. It introduces real economics cost/value, pricing etc. to a game system we've been used to as the more "socialist" model. And I don't mean that politically i mean that in the literal use of the economic term.
Now I'm not saying "if you don't like it GTFO" I'm not that crass. But I am saying that it is basically the way the F2P genre is. But that's also why there are competitors, as more and more F2P games come out, you'll have varying options. Do I wish somethings were cheaper in the Zen store? Sure.
Do I think the company is evil, greedy, immoral and trying to rake me over a barrel? No. Everyone's mileage may vary. I'm making the case for my point of view.
For the most part everyone else is thankfully sharing in the civility of the debate, even if I am a so-called "tool" *wink*
Foundry author of the "Red Rum Runners" Campaign. Part 1: "WANTED: Physical Labor Needed" and Part 2: "Worst Employer Ever!"
Comments
I see what you did there.
I wish they had done something similar to their feat system where it scaled the price based on level. It would have been harder with the Zen shop but they could have done something like sell 3 tiers of respec that cost different amounts and whatever level you are required a certain one. That way if you are lvl60 you get the $6 one, but if you are say lvl20, you might only have to buy the tier 1 respec which is only $2.
the truth is that you'll really rarely be respeccing. But in my case I had totally borked my GWF cause I put points in skills that I eventually came to terms with that weren't useful. and had also put feats that corresponded with them (also spread the feats out too much) So I thought it was time for a respec. So was the respec plausible? Yes. Though I still wish they were $3. I'd be more likely to spend $6 for 2 respecs vs $6 for 1.
In other MMOs, crafters can go out into the world, collect cloth and other supplies, then come back to town and create bags to sell to other players. This would be like you going out and buying seeds, then coming home to plant your garden, and nurturing it as it grows the tomatoes you wish to eat. That is, I agree, a rewarding experience.
In Neverwinter, there is no tailoring of any kind, and the only way to get bags is to buy them from the cash shop, using generic Astral Diamonds or Zen. The equivalent of that, in gardening terms, would be going to the store and buying tomatoes off the shelf, using generic money you made at your "day job" (be that PvP, dungeon running, etc.)
In essence, they have taken away your ability to have your own garden, and grow your own vegetables.
I thank you, on behalf of your opponents, for providing us with such a fitting analogy to use in our own argument against cash shops.
-Travail.
[
Whereas in a P2P game i can respec with ingame money as many times as i want to test out the best spec, which i cant in a F2P game without spending a fortune in rl money.
Its those small things that are "extra" that people use the most, like bags, respecs, change character looks, crafting, dyes, costumes etc that costs alot.
You dont "need" them, but 90% of the players want them, and generally F2P games develop their game to make it so players feel forced to buy them, clogging up your bags, make ugly armors that needs dyes, best looking gearskins found in item shop, limited information on skills so you need to buy respec stones, mounts that are just a little bit faster then the previous released one.
Alot of stuff is also "hidden" so you dont realize you need to buy stuff from the item shop before you have already spent alot of time in it, like craftingtools/henchmen
The only thing im fine with is gearskins, the rest is just so irritating that i cant find the best stuff in the game by using my time and skill to get it but instead have to fork up my wallet.
Fun Fact: Farmers are also consumers. Just where do you think they get crop seeds from?
A large inventory is a convenience. Nothing more. It does not break the game and is actually an efficient means of economy control. If you were hoarding blues and purples in your inventory and then dumped them all on the market at the same time.
You missed my point. Where is the bag making profession in Neverwinter? It doesn't exist. Instead, we are forced to go farm astral diamonds for a bit, then purchase bags from the cash shop. Or pony up the cash, of course.
There is also no alchemy, because Cryptic/PWE prefer us to spend astral diamonds on our potions, instead of crafting them ourselves. The cash grab mentality of this company has hurt the crafting system in Neverwinter, any way you look at it. It is far less full and robust that it could have been, had it not been for policies which were implemented to encourage us to spend generic Zen/AD/cash on items, instead of crafting them ourselves.
-Travail.
Are you saying you don't want them to make any money? Are you saying making money is bad? You should quit your job and pay your bills with your tears.
Nice strawman!
The whole point is that everyone is going "boooooo look at this! They're charging me money for this!"
OK fine. Lets say they didn't charge money for that, now, what should they charge money for?
Do you want to know why TV Executives cancel TV shows you and I like?
Because they aren't making the company (i.e. TV Channel) money.
They're a business. They are there to provide a service, that service is expected to turn a profit.
It works the same way with Games. Especially in F2P MMO's.
Look at all the billable hours goes into a game like this. Graphics Designers, coders, community managers, voice actors, writers. Those people need to eat, and have more than likely already been paid from a budget already requisitioned and distributed.
But then you have ongoing costs an future costs PLUS the desire to make a profit.
My wife approves this message.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
To Touch on the Survey topic, I originally mentioned. Not knowing specifics, PWE probably has a sales team that works with Peanut Labs which then negotiate rates for surveys to be featured on PWE for their consumer base to voluntarily take part in.
the Marketing and Research companies basically PAY peanut labs to help them find survey takers and PWE takes a cut, the amount of ZEN you earn will be less than the amount PWE earns but everyone basically wins, you take a survey which helps a marketing/research product and you get zen. Whether or not the amount of time it took you to take said survey is worth the zen is up to you.
I personally do find them fun and interesting but I used to work in Public Relations / Marketing for like 5 years, long ago in another lifetime. So seeing how company X is testing out new colors and logo design is kinda neat.
With regards to the person I quoted and the person they're quoting. Yes that person doesn't understand that the zen you buy for AD is Zen someone else purchases (and that person is getting your AD). The economy here started with someone "Patient Zero" buying ZEN and then deciding to sell it for AD.
There were perhaps gentler ways to inform him of how it works however.
Look to LoL as an extremely successful model, or PoE. Both are making loads of cash without trying to fleece their customers by overcharging and monetizing as much as they possibly can.
I'm sorry, but in order to access the forums, you'll need to buy the forum access token. BUY NOW! 1 post token for 100 Zen or 12 for 1000 Zen!
This just goes to the notion of competitive marketplace and people being comfortable charging for different things at different rates.
It's not fleecing. Its price quoting.
Lumberjack 1 will cut down X number of Trees for Y Dollars as long as Total time doesn't exceed Z hours. Then its B Dollars an hour after that.
Lumberjack 2 will cut down X number of trees for YY Dollars. Period.
It doesn't mean Lumberjack 2 is less or more successful. Sometimes it has to do with how successful either lumberjack is at marketing, and also the range of clientele either lumberjack is going for.
Just because PWE says "hey lets charge X for Y" doesn't mean they're fleecing you. Its the pricing plan they were comfortable with. Other games decided on different pricing plans.
Simple as that.
Would make sense if you substituted one of the lumberjacks for say, a casino. One F2P model is completely cosmetic options and never tries to trick you or force you into buying anything, the other model plays off of those obsessive, compulsive behaviors and also charges for basic features. Some people are comfortable with that, I prefer to support companies that I do not feel are forcing my hand.
At least, that was my experience with PoE v. LOTRO/NW.
Oh I understand perfectly. I was saying that any Zen added to the economy via survey WASN'T bought via player cash. If "free" is Zen that isn't bought by you to traded to you by someone who did buy it, then yes that Zen was "free." All you are doing as a player is giving your time to work on currency (which is basically the same outcome as playing the game itself).
All the people who spend cash on Zen are doing is adding additional Zen to the economy in a way that eases the exchange rate (thus my comment on fluctuation).
You both misunderstood but at least you didn't compound your error by putting your foot throat deep down your mouth... as the person you quoted had done. Slow clap for Riven.
I offer my apologies regarding my assumption.
I am going to have to call BS here. How much money does LOL make? What are the cost? Same goes for PoE or any other game. Even WoW. We as players have no idea how much money a game makes. They might show figures but they don't show costs. Take a game that makes a billion bucks but has a cost of a billion bucks....net profit zero. We are in the dark as players about costs of these games
Have you tried the surveys? Firstly, the reward isn't anywhere near balanced. You get 10-20 zen for filling out a survey that has a 1 in 20 chance of actually paying out.
I've done tons of surveys for Champions Online and other games. They always wait until you've finished the survey to give you a page saying "Sorry you're not eligible. You gave away all this information or wasting time making answers up for absolutely nothing."
Plus you forget that this game is a world wide thing. I'm in Canada and most of those free offers either
1. Aren't actually free
2. Are only available to people IN the US.
An option only available to what will end up being a small portion of the game's population and is sketchy at best, is not a valid option. Your argument is moot.
Besides, the vast majority of the zen floating around in the game is purchased, with real money (or maybe credit), by a player.
It's safe to assume they're making comfortable amounts of profits, otherwise the game would have shut down or they would have changed their business model.
lol, your logic is lost on the fanbois. His math was so you can buy a mount. Not so you can aqquire somethign that your going to need on a fairly regular basis if you want to continue, your crafting, or whatever pay wall you have reached. This game is loaded with Free content, that ungracefully slam you face first into a pay wall.
Hey, you like crafting? Guess what, there are much higher quality crafters/tools (assets) that you can use to create even more powwerful items...oh wait, 100% of that content is locked behind a pay wall. And YES, i can legitimately say PAY WALL. Because even if I do their 'earn it on my own' method. I am buying the ZEN from someone who DID pay. So he may not have paid for the same pay wall your encountering, but your using the $/euro he spent to aquire that ZEN to do away with your pay wall.
Like that pet of yours? It only goes to lvl 15 because we havn't implimented a system that lets your pet scale with you. BUT....we do have some incredibly high priced single use only companions that can pass that limitation with NO problem...pay up to succesfully circumvent your most recent pay wall.
HEY! like that cool horse that guy just chased you down in pvp with, going more than twice the mount speed you are? Guess how you can get a mount just like his?! guess...really, i bet you will never figure it out...oh wait. Another pay wall. Pay up and you can do better than him. Or you can earn it, by upgrading yoru starter horse. Which when all is said and done, cost you 7.62MILLION AD.
This game's version of 'earn it with ingame currency' is so incredibly imbalanced. Most other FTPs that use a ingame currency conversion to $ currency, doesn't have such a huge gap as Neverwinter.
Do your research into other games and how much they charge for similar content before you defend this company. If you have EVER EVER EVER played a PWI game in the past, especially Perfect World, you will be punched in the face with PAY TO WIN...or play for free and enjoy 30% of the overall game's content.
But isn't that the point? Isn't that what capitalism and microtransactions are all about?
The notion that a Free To Play game being truly free is a misnomer invented by someone with irrational delusions. The game certainly isn't free for PWE to maintain.
Then charge a box price or sub if there are worries about covering costs. No one should feel pressured or guilty to support a risky, greedy, and shady F2P gamble, if that is what it is.
But that's just it. It's not greedy or shady. It's business.
a box price or sub just puts a cost at a different point. Those crying "Pay to Win" fail to understand that you're paying to win with a sub, you're paying to win with a box price. Payment is involved no matter what. Under this logic you're "paying to win" by having an internet connection, even if all the zen store items were absolutely Free and didn't cost zen.
Eeew! Veggies.....Yes, that's all I got outta that?
If everyone is paying the same price, I'm not sure how that would be P2W. I feel like this model of F2P is a bit shady and dishonest. It capitalizes on certain behaviors instead of being upfront, and hits the player with various "walls" after they are already invested (the hook). And we haven't even seen how they will handle expansions and future content yet (I can take a guess how it will go, however).
It is a completely different type of model than PoE's F2P (of which I was a supporter btw).
i shower you with love.
*grin*
Here's the thing though Riven, as you and screamingpalm are pointing out (and I do get where you both are coming from), yes. if everyone pays one flat price and gets the same content. You get exactly that.
However that's not what F2P genre is about. F2P IS capitalism meets gaming. It introduces real economics cost/value, pricing etc. to a game system we've been used to as the more "socialist" model. And I don't mean that politically i mean that in the literal use of the economic term.
Now I'm not saying "if you don't like it GTFO" I'm not that crass. But I am saying that it is basically the way the F2P genre is. But that's also why there are competitors, as more and more F2P games come out, you'll have varying options. Do I wish somethings were cheaper in the Zen store? Sure.
Do I think the company is evil, greedy, immoral and trying to rake me over a barrel? No. Everyone's mileage may vary. I'm making the case for my point of view.
For the most part everyone else is thankfully sharing in the civility of the debate, even if I am a so-called "tool" *wink*