And no, I'm not claiming T2 is easy I'm saying it's doable. It's doable with a GWF too, so whatever. Pretty much everyone I teamed with yesterday seemed shocked that a GWF was useful, but hey live and learn.
Anything is possible really lol. On a couple of occasion we 4man a T2. I dont think the subject of these debates is whether or not it is possible to run with a GWF. The question is if you had a choice between a TR, CW, GWF and even a GF, which would you choose to make your run smoother?
You said you party member were "shocked" that your GWF was useful? lol how exactly did they measure that usefulness? Were you performing some role that no other class could do better? If so what exactly was it?
All I know is, in your average T2 boss fight, half way through the fight:
- If the DC falls, it's a wipe. Everyone commits suicide and not waste time.
- If the CW falls, most likely it is a wipe, especially in a fight where managing adds is key. Everyone suicides again.
- If a TR falls, it is a good chance it is a wipe, especially if they were the only dps on Boss. We see can someone get on the boss and continue? if not everyone suicides again.
- You know what happens when a GWF falls? The party members are looting the DD chest before they realize the GWF went down. lol
That's how irrelevant the role of a GWF is. It's definitely not what ANYONE wants, but it is the sad truth. In fact, all those complaining about GWFs want the class to get fixed so it CAN be useful. I still LOVE to play my GWF, but I am certainly not living in denial trying to prove to others the class' worth.
And it's this precise attitude that leads people to say it's underpowered and performing badly. They expected to be #1 damage and are angry that they are not. (Although in T2 dungeons like Pirates you should be #1, even if your CW is knocking add's off bridges. Haven't been beaten in Pirates yet in DPS even by skilled Rogues.)
First of all, I would really like to see a video of your GWF with other equally skilled/geared players doing any T2. After doing a ton of T2s, and countless Pirates (which should really be a T1) I have yet to see a GWF even matching a CW's dps.
But that's besides the point. Because AoE dps is the LEAST useful element in ANY T2 run. CWs are essential not because of their AoE dps (which is nothing to laugh at), but because of their CC. Any Boss fight is about controlling adds, not DPSing adds. Yes the most of the adds fall one way or another, but that is a side effect of proper control and not the main objective. All the trash along the way to the boss that boosts your DPS score card at the end is garbage.
The ONLY dps that matters is the single target dps that TRs do on a boss. That's it, no other dps is worth choosing a class for. This is where it gets really sad for a GWF. EVEN when there is no TR to dps a boss, a CW slotting single target debuff and DPS can still do the job much better than a GWF can for obvious reasons.
First of all, I would really like to see a video of your GWF with other equally skilled/geared players doing any T2. After doing a ton of T2s, and countless Pirates (which should really be a T1) I have yet to see a GWF even matching a CW's dps.
But that's besides the point. Because AoE dps is the LEAST useful element in ANY T2 run. CWs are essential not because of their AoE dps (which is nothing to laugh at), but because of their CC. Any Boss fight is about controlling adds, not DPSing adds. Yes the most of the adds fall one way or another, but that is a side effect of proper control and not the main objective. All the trash along the way to the boss that boosts your DPS score card at the end is garbage.
The ONLY dps that matters is the single target dps that TRs do on a boss. That's it, no other dps is worth choosing a class for. This is where it gets really sad for a GWF. EVEN when there is no TR to dps a boss, a CW slotting single target debuff and DPS can still do the job much better than a GWF can for obvious reasons.
I'm not going to bother filming myself playing a video game and post it on youtube to prove it. I'll take a screen shot of the end meter next time I do one, but that's as much as I can be bothered to do. AoE DPS kills the add's, removing the necessity to CC them. A single GWF and a single CW is all that's required to burn anything other than some huge add's such as the one's in the end fight in Frozen Heart.
The team was amazed that I was useful in that I was the #1 DPS consistantly in that particular instance. It's probably not considered 'useful' DPS by the standard of 'only boss DPS matters' but it isn't really true that only boss DPS matters if you get overwhelmed by an entire army of add's. It makes things harder on your cleric to constantly kite, but if they're fine with that than it's obviously working for you.
I do agree that Pirates should be a T1, but that's because you can skip most of the instance through cliff knocking up until the end boss. On top of that pretty much everyone wants the cleric to perch up on the wall so the add's can't reach them, and if you don't want to do it that way they just quit the team leaving you with four people. (And yes, you can complete Pirates end fight with only four people but then you must exploit which is f'ing ironic.)
Or how about dropping through the map in Spiders to exploit the /stuck feature? I've seen so much cheese and BS running T2 that it's a joke we're even talking about class balance.
Right now, if you're running PUG T2 it's exploit or don't finish. If you're running with a premade, it's probably less of an issue. At least by now I have enough friends on my list to run with people that don't like playing that way, but to each their own. It just bugs me that people will quit before an end boss after demanding you exploit it. It's even more of a joke that people come on the forum to complain that GWF is under powered when it seems like the majority of pug play is straight exploit tactics 100% of the time. If PUG play is like that, I can only imagine that Guild play is even worse.
TL;DR, GWF is fine if you enjoy playing Neverwinter as intended. If you enjoy exploiting instances and cheesing the game, than yes there is no reason to bring a GWF when you skip 95% of an instance with glitches and just fight the end boss with another exploit.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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tyr216Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
TL;DR, GWF is fine if you enjoy playing Neverwinter as intended. If you enjoy exploiting instances and cheesing the game, than yes there is no reason to bring a GWF when you skip 95% of an instance with glitches and just fight the end boss with another exploit.
Then there is no reason to bring a GWF because if there is a way to cheese the game, players will do it and it will become the norm. Because GWF's are not ideal for cheesing, the community will continue to react as they have been. Will the devs break the cheesing like they should or make GWF's cheese-able? I doubt they'd do either. At this point, GWF's are just going to have to find groups/guilds that don't abuse mechanics that puts the class at an inherent disadvantage. So basically GWF's are going to become this little known secret where they don't actually suck, contrary to the majority of public opinion. That might appeal to you, but that doesn't address the problem.
GWF is "fine", which to me is like saying that painting a room with a brush is fine, but everyone else is getting the job done faster with a paint sprayer gun. I feel like this is true even outside of instances, where my flimsy GWF hits like a wet noodle and has to constantly kite mobs when health potions are on cool down. Maybe if stamina didn't decay as quickly so I could get more uses out of it, that would help. I'm not at max level though, so maybe it sucks alittle less later down the line, but its so incredibly painful getting there that I'm not sure I'm going to make it.
Then there is no reason to bring a GWF because if there is a way to cheese the game, players will do it and it will become the norm. Because GWF's are not ideal for cheesing, the community will continue to react as they have been. Will the devs break the cheesing like they should or make GWF's cheese-able? I doubt they'd do either. At this point, GWF's are just going to have to find groups/guilds that don't abuse mechanics that puts the class at an inherent disadvantage. So basically GWF's are going to become this little known secret where they don't actually suck, contrary to the majority of public opinion. That might appeal to you, but that doesn't address the problem.
GWF is "fine", which to me is like saying that painting a room with a brush is fine, but everyone else is getting the job done faster with a paint sprayer gun. I feel like this is true even outside of instances, where my flimsy GWF hits like a wet noodle and has to constantly kite mobs when health potions are on cool down. Maybe if stamina didn't decay as quickly so I could get more uses out of it, that would help. I'm not at max level though, so maybe it sucks alittle less later down the line, but its so incredibly painful getting there that I'm not sure I'm going to make it.
It's Cryptic, it's broken and it will stay broken. The mechanics with the entire game is the problem, not GWF.
They'll release more classes soon though, after the balance patch turns out to just be a TR nerf.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
I just made a rogue today, killed the first boss in the bridge in less than 5 seconds as opposed with a GWF on the first time playing the game.... Really cryptic what are you doling?
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rathelasMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 46Arc User
One major fix would be to make it so that the adds cant be knocked of the ledges.
Why? I mean, if it was real life and you pushed someone off a cliff, they'd fall, right? Why create an invisible barrier? Makes no sense. Not an exploit.
Why? I mean, if it was real life and you pushed someone off a cliff, they'd fall, right? Why create an invisible barrier? Makes no sense. Not an exploit.
^this
Even if they removed knockback that would mean only 1 person could dps the boss while everyone else is on Adds. Even then 2 CW over that 1 GWF would be even more desirable to keep singularity loops and peels.
Even if they removed knockback that would mean only 1 person could dps the boss while everyone else is on Adds. Even then 2 CW over that 1 GWF would be even more desirable to keep singularity loops and peels.
Want to know why. ok sure ill elaborate. Even if GWF did double the AoE damage of a CW it still wouldn't matter because they do more single target and can just knock them out the ledge.
If they went another route and just made them single target oriented, people would just take whoever can dish out more dps unless they can balance it pretty close (within 5%-7%).
The way classes appear to be designed is as follows: GE = Tank, CW = CC, TR = Single target DPS, GWF = AoE dps DC = Healer.
GWF current role is useless because you can essentially one shot the adds with CW.
GWF current role is useless because you can essentially one shot the adds with CW.
And for the times you can't push things off ledges, any enemy larger than basic trash laughs at GWF's damage output.
Took a stab at Epic Cragmire Crypts... Ended up trying to fight 2 gnolls in the boss room. They take 25% of my health in one hit, I take maybe 1% of theirs. It's a good thing I can evade their attacks up to three times before I run out of stamina, eh?
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tyr216Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
One major fix would be to make it so that the adds cant be knocked of the ledges.
I think for boss fights and other scripted events, adds shouldn't be able to be knocked back like that. Perhaps they could have a debuff called "Grounded", making them immune to things like that. Knocking trash off a cliff on the way to a boss fight doesn't really make that much of a difference. There needs to be a reason to want to bring a GWF and right now, there isnt. There isnt a single job you can bring a GWF to do that the other classes can't do much better. The problem is twofold; it needs to be addressed on a class level as well as on an encounter level.
The GWF is arguably the hardest class to level, and what do you have to look forward to once you finally reach level cap? Getting kicked out of dungeons because people don't want to waste their time carrying you through when your space in the group could go to another class that can one-shot everything with knock-backs. Anyone who doesn't see this as an issue is either extremely obtuse or someone who prefers exploiting the game's design so they can hurry up and get "moar lewtz fastur."
Something has to change here, and we all know it's not going to be human behavior because every time there's a shortcut available, most people will take it. "Hmm.. there's a GWF in our group guys.. lets go ahead and make this run take three times as long instead of knocking everything off a cliff.. or we could just kick the GWF and get a CW.." Gee, I wonder what option most people are going to go with.
I can say that GWF has it's up and downs and may not preform like the other class's but can hold there own in Heroics. I've beat out both TR's and CW's but also lost to some as well but that has not stopped me from playing a class I enjoy in both PvE and PvP.
Any class comp works when running heroics but the Hot ticket right now is Speed Runs which normally don't consist of GWF. I've ran with a few speed run groups(TR/GWF/CW/DCx2) over the weekend (Heroic FH/Spiders (w/o Exploits) just fine. Specs/Stats/Gear all come into play for the GWF and if you don't do the work on the class then you do not have a chance regardless of class comp in heroics.
**I've yet to be kicked out of a dungeon or not found a DD run yet.
I can say that my personal experience with the GWF has it's up and downs and may not preform like the other class's but can hold there own in Heroics. I've beat out both TR's and CW's but also lost to some as well but that has not stopped me from playing a class I enjoy in both PvE and PvP.
Any class comp works when running heroics but the Hot ticket right now is Speed Runs which normally don't consist of GWF. I've ran with a few speed run groups(TR/GWF/CW/DCx2) over the weekend (Heroic FH/Spiders (w/o Exploits) just fine. Specs/Stats/Gear all come into play for the GWF and if you don't do the work on the class then you do not have a chance regardless of class comp in heroics.
**I've yet to be kicked out of a dungeon or not found a DD run yet. I'm assuming people get kicked due to lack of enchants or random greens stacked with epics clearly showing you bought your gear and don't have a clue about the class.
Comments
Anything is possible really lol. On a couple of occasion we 4man a T2. I dont think the subject of these debates is whether or not it is possible to run with a GWF. The question is if you had a choice between a TR, CW, GWF and even a GF, which would you choose to make your run smoother?
You said you party member were "shocked" that your GWF was useful? lol how exactly did they measure that usefulness? Were you performing some role that no other class could do better? If so what exactly was it?
All I know is, in your average T2 boss fight, half way through the fight:
- If the DC falls, it's a wipe. Everyone commits suicide and not waste time.
- If the CW falls, most likely it is a wipe, especially in a fight where managing adds is key. Everyone suicides again.
- If a TR falls, it is a good chance it is a wipe, especially if they were the only dps on Boss. We see can someone get on the boss and continue? if not everyone suicides again.
- You know what happens when a GWF falls? The party members are looting the DD chest before they realize the GWF went down. lol
That's how irrelevant the role of a GWF is. It's definitely not what ANYONE wants, but it is the sad truth. In fact, all those complaining about GWFs want the class to get fixed so it CAN be useful. I still LOVE to play my GWF, but I am certainly not living in denial trying to prove to others the class' worth.
First of all, I would really like to see a video of your GWF with other equally skilled/geared players doing any T2. After doing a ton of T2s, and countless Pirates (which should really be a T1) I have yet to see a GWF even matching a CW's dps.
But that's besides the point. Because AoE dps is the LEAST useful element in ANY T2 run. CWs are essential not because of their AoE dps (which is nothing to laugh at), but because of their CC. Any Boss fight is about controlling adds, not DPSing adds. Yes the most of the adds fall one way or another, but that is a side effect of proper control and not the main objective. All the trash along the way to the boss that boosts your DPS score card at the end is garbage.
The ONLY dps that matters is the single target dps that TRs do on a boss. That's it, no other dps is worth choosing a class for. This is where it gets really sad for a GWF. EVEN when there is no TR to dps a boss, a CW slotting single target debuff and DPS can still do the job much better than a GWF can for obvious reasons.
I'm not going to bother filming myself playing a video game and post it on youtube to prove it. I'll take a screen shot of the end meter next time I do one, but that's as much as I can be bothered to do. AoE DPS kills the add's, removing the necessity to CC them. A single GWF and a single CW is all that's required to burn anything other than some huge add's such as the one's in the end fight in Frozen Heart.
The team was amazed that I was useful in that I was the #1 DPS consistantly in that particular instance. It's probably not considered 'useful' DPS by the standard of 'only boss DPS matters' but it isn't really true that only boss DPS matters if you get overwhelmed by an entire army of add's. It makes things harder on your cleric to constantly kite, but if they're fine with that than it's obviously working for you.
I do agree that Pirates should be a T1, but that's because you can skip most of the instance through cliff knocking up until the end boss. On top of that pretty much everyone wants the cleric to perch up on the wall so the add's can't reach them, and if you don't want to do it that way they just quit the team leaving you with four people. (And yes, you can complete Pirates end fight with only four people but then you must exploit which is f'ing ironic.)
Or how about dropping through the map in Spiders to exploit the /stuck feature? I've seen so much cheese and BS running T2 that it's a joke we're even talking about class balance.
Right now, if you're running PUG T2 it's exploit or don't finish. If you're running with a premade, it's probably less of an issue. At least by now I have enough friends on my list to run with people that don't like playing that way, but to each their own. It just bugs me that people will quit before an end boss after demanding you exploit it. It's even more of a joke that people come on the forum to complain that GWF is under powered when it seems like the majority of pug play is straight exploit tactics 100% of the time. If PUG play is like that, I can only imagine that Guild play is even worse.
TL;DR, GWF is fine if you enjoy playing Neverwinter as intended. If you enjoy exploiting instances and cheesing the game, than yes there is no reason to bring a GWF when you skip 95% of an instance with glitches and just fight the end boss with another exploit.
Then there is no reason to bring a GWF because if there is a way to cheese the game, players will do it and it will become the norm. Because GWF's are not ideal for cheesing, the community will continue to react as they have been. Will the devs break the cheesing like they should or make GWF's cheese-able? I doubt they'd do either. At this point, GWF's are just going to have to find groups/guilds that don't abuse mechanics that puts the class at an inherent disadvantage. So basically GWF's are going to become this little known secret where they don't actually suck, contrary to the majority of public opinion. That might appeal to you, but that doesn't address the problem.
GWF is "fine", which to me is like saying that painting a room with a brush is fine, but everyone else is getting the job done faster with a paint sprayer gun. I feel like this is true even outside of instances, where my flimsy GWF hits like a wet noodle and has to constantly kite mobs when health potions are on cool down. Maybe if stamina didn't decay as quickly so I could get more uses out of it, that would help. I'm not at max level though, so maybe it sucks alittle less later down the line, but its so incredibly painful getting there that I'm not sure I'm going to make it.
It's Cryptic, it's broken and it will stay broken. The mechanics with the entire game is the problem, not GWF.
They'll release more classes soon though, after the balance patch turns out to just be a TR nerf.
and cleric circle nerf
Why? I mean, if it was real life and you pushed someone off a cliff, they'd fall, right? Why create an invisible barrier? Makes no sense. Not an exploit.
^this
Even if they removed knockback that would mean only 1 person could dps the boss while everyone else is on Adds. Even then 2 CW over that 1 GWF would be even more desirable to keep singularity loops and peels.
or you can get any other class with cw and do more damage.
Want to know why. ok sure ill elaborate. Even if GWF did double the AoE damage of a CW it still wouldn't matter because they do more single target and can just knock them out the ledge.
If they went another route and just made them single target oriented, people would just take whoever can dish out more dps unless they can balance it pretty close (within 5%-7%).
The way classes appear to be designed is as follows: GE = Tank, CW = CC, TR = Single target DPS, GWF = AoE dps DC = Healer.
GWF current role is useless because you can essentially one shot the adds with CW.
And for the times you can't push things off ledges, any enemy larger than basic trash laughs at GWF's damage output.
Took a stab at Epic Cragmire Crypts... Ended up trying to fight 2 gnolls in the boss room. They take 25% of my health in one hit, I take maybe 1% of theirs. It's a good thing I can evade their attacks up to three times before I run out of stamina, eh?
I think for boss fights and other scripted events, adds shouldn't be able to be knocked back like that. Perhaps they could have a debuff called "Grounded", making them immune to things like that. Knocking trash off a cliff on the way to a boss fight doesn't really make that much of a difference. There needs to be a reason to want to bring a GWF and right now, there isnt. There isnt a single job you can bring a GWF to do that the other classes can't do much better. The problem is twofold; it needs to be addressed on a class level as well as on an encounter level.
The GWF is arguably the hardest class to level, and what do you have to look forward to once you finally reach level cap? Getting kicked out of dungeons because people don't want to waste their time carrying you through when your space in the group could go to another class that can one-shot everything with knock-backs. Anyone who doesn't see this as an issue is either extremely obtuse or someone who prefers exploiting the game's design so they can hurry up and get "moar lewtz fastur."
Something has to change here, and we all know it's not going to be human behavior because every time there's a shortcut available, most people will take it. "Hmm.. there's a GWF in our group guys.. lets go ahead and make this run take three times as long instead of knocking everything off a cliff.. or we could just kick the GWF and get a CW.." Gee, I wonder what option most people are going to go with.
Any class comp works when running heroics but the Hot ticket right now is Speed Runs which normally don't consist of GWF. I've ran with a few speed run groups(TR/GWF/CW/DCx2) over the weekend (Heroic FH/Spiders (w/o Exploits) just fine. Specs/Stats/Gear all come into play for the GWF and if you don't do the work on the class then you do not have a chance regardless of class comp in heroics.
**I've yet to be kicked out of a dungeon or not found a DD run yet.
Any class comp works when running heroics but the Hot ticket right now is Speed Runs which normally don't consist of GWF. I've ran with a few speed run groups(TR/GWF/CW/DCx2) over the weekend (Heroic FH/Spiders (w/o Exploits) just fine. Specs/Stats/Gear all come into play for the GWF and if you don't do the work on the class then you do not have a chance regardless of class comp in heroics.
**I've yet to be kicked out of a dungeon or not found a DD run yet. I'm assuming people get kicked due to lack of enchants or random greens stacked with epics clearly showing you bought your gear and don't have a clue about the class.
for the times you cant, you still have CW who do slightly less AoE.