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Please devs: I (and I think many others) would love it if you answered a question:
sgojraty
Member Posts: 1 Arc User
One of the major issues I see in the game now is that Guardian Fighters and GWFs are considered 2nd class citizens in endgame PVE. There are major problems with threat for Guardian Fighter and some DPS output issues for GWF. They're begging to get into groups. It makes the end-game not less fun for us guardian fighters and GWF.
I as a player of tanks exclusively in MMOs, I would love to know the development team's impression of this problem: Is there an issue with GWF/GF endgame PVE, and are there any broad ideas on how it will be addressed?
In your last state of the game, you mentioned that an update might be released in the near future regarding "Aggro and threat balancing," which is great to hear! I'm sure the specifics haven't been ironed out yet, but does that statement reflect a major change to address the issue GWF/GF roles?
I as a player of tanks exclusively in MMOs, I would love to know the development team's impression of this problem: Is there an issue with GWF/GF endgame PVE, and are there any broad ideas on how it will be addressed?
In your last state of the game, you mentioned that an update might be released in the near future regarding "Aggro and threat balancing," which is great to hear! I'm sure the specifics haven't been ironed out yet, but does that statement reflect a major change to address the issue GWF/GF roles?
Post edited by sgojraty on
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We've definitely been listening to the feedback and have some information on this coming soon. Keep an eye on our website/Facebook/Forums/Twitter.
Of course, class balance is an ongoing process and we don't plan to achieve mechanical utopia in a single patch, but we do plan on making some big improvements soon that will definitely be a step towards addressing some of the top requests from our player base.
Hey Dez,
Thank you so much for taking the time to answer this question. I personally play a TR. But, I love having a GF and GWF in my group. The more variety in the group, the better imo. There are a lot of talented players out there, and some maybe not as talented. But, i'm positive they are just as dedicated. Everyone should be able to play what class they love. I do understand the game just launched and things are never perfect (especially in the beginning). You taking the time to post this and give us at least some hope on the matter. Well, I and many others really appreciated it. Please keep up this good communication and know there are a lot of people enjoying the game you created.
I think it's a very satisfying aesthetic to have for this class, and if we're lucky, maybe we'll see some new abilities or feats in the future that help guide this class toward it
And yes, i agree that team variety is more fun than playing newb tactics like dual DC and such.
Dual stacking Astral Shield by two DCs and the easy mode CW's knock out of platform abilities for T2s is part of what's keeping variety in groups. So, most every party for Castle Never looks like 1 TR, 2 DCs, & 2 CWs. No wonder many GFs and GWFs have given up on dungeons like Castle Never. You can clearly see in the auction house where plenty of GF and GWF Ancient weapons are sold in the range of 1 mill to 1.5 mill AD in Beholder while DC, CW, and TR Ancient range from 3 to 6 mill.
Yes I stocked up on health potions and health stones, but you know what? I made it through without a single death. In fact, my GF still hasn't died. Have things gotten challenging at times? Yes. Been close to death many times now. But no deaths. (Disclaimer: PvE character.)
On teams or with companions, using lunging strike, I can pretty much be anywhere in the fight in an instant. Using feats and power points, I've built my GF to do two things almost at the complete exclusion of everything else: draw aggro and resist or deflect damage. I haven't taken a single feat point related to DPS, and I have focused my power points on powers that allow me to tank better.
So guess what, kids? My tank doesn't feel broken. Because I built him like a tank.
Even with the GF's block animation bugged out, I figured out the timing involved with the bug in about five minutes of play. Yes it's an annoying bug, but while they're working on it, I'm playing my GF like a pro.
This isn't a total fan boy post, because I do think tanks should draw more aggro than they do. HOWEVER, I don't necessarily think they should be programmed to draw it 24/7 using always-on powers or feats, like I get the feeling some people are wanting, UNLESS the aggro is being generated as a bonus for attacks that have been spec'd to draw it. At the very least, drawing aggro should be something you DO have to spec for, otherwise feats and Paragon Paths would diminish in importance and the GF class would lose its replayability/altitus factor. (Hey, I thought petless masterminds in CoH were pretty weird too, but I saw them get used effectively.)
The point of my rant, devs, is that I hope you'll temper your tweaking with the knowledge that the "IT'Z BROKED!!!" side of the fence will always cry louder than my side of the fence. You know, those of us who like to think these things through before posting.
Again I'm not saying the GF is totally fine. It's not. We all know that. But for those of us who (and I hate to say this but...) have learned to play our GFs, be careful or we'll easily get all the way to 60 and stay pretty with hardly a scratch.
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Give it time... My roommate plays a GF and he's of a similar mind where he only takes damage mitigation and threat related feats and powers. He literally said the other day, "As I'm leveling up, I'm actually getting worse." By the time you're level 60, I wonder if you'll be of the same opinion.
I'm sorry, but you really need to play a bit more. Although I do get the feeling the devs who were in charge of GFs did the same thing. Test played a little bit at low levels and pronounced the class fine without realizing our block in no way comes close to the dodging other classes get to do. We won't even get into the aggro issues, you know those were overlooked.
All that aside, its good see some light on the horizon. Thanks for the heads up.
You lost all credibility in your post right there. This game isn't even remotely difficult until 30. Then they take your sandwich, your drink, your bubble gum, and your innocence.
Unfortunately "It's broked" is a valid complaint right now, at least for GFs.
Gfs don't just have the balancing issues working against them, guard has also been half broken since they moved the data for block/dodge from client side to server to fix yet another exploit. Raise your shield, then drop it, then raise it again immediately after and see what happens. Go on. Try it. Oh, you did? Then sit down and be quiet pretty please, because that is a MAJOR feature that is broken. Not some talent that is skimping you 1% extra hit points. I had zero issues whatsoever before this happened. Now I can't play my GF at all because PVP is absolutely impossible when I can't rely on my guard to work, and forget PVE. There's so many things to block and move out of, you've barely got a hope and a prayer of getting out in time with your block all bugged out.
As a side note, at level 18, you can't build for diddly squat. You're forced to take every power there is right up to that point, and the feats you take before 20? Yeah, sorry, that's not going to put you into leet tanking status so you can drop the condescending attitude towards the rest of the community like we don't know what we're doing. What are you now? Level 25? 30? Where can I bow to your awesome skills, because clearly I have been doing it all wrong.
HOW DO I TANK THIS?! BLUUHHH *licks sword with cross eyes while slamming shield into a nearby wall for no apparent reason*
Just learn to build your toon. I see GWF's clean out my HP in one fell swoop.... GWF's are DEFINITELY NOT hurting when it comes to DPS
This thread isn't about the HAMSTER pvp in this game, and for the record, you type like a CW or TR, both of which I can destroy in pvp easily regardless of gear score. I still suck for damage in the epic dungeons though and I know my GWF spec is as good as I can get it, just an fyi. Two totally different game mechanics.
how novel.
PvP is something I rarely do, But when I do go in, and I am quite decently geared enough, GWF's can shell out some serious damage.
PvE, your role is not Single target DPS however, your role is AOE / Group DPS... DPS spread out amonst several targets, and you fill that role pretty **** good right now. Could the AoE damage use a slight bump ?
Sure...
But don;t carry a sign around saying "Woe is Me "... when truthfully GWF's are not in a bad position at all.
You want to be pissed at something ?
Be pissed people carry a sterotype around that GWF's and GF's are poor choices...
Obviously these players ...
1. Lack any knowledge of class structure and what other classes can and cannot do.
2. are 12 years old and looking to exploit the dungeon anyway
3. Think by running 2 TR / 2 CW they are having easy mode...
Be mad at them, not at how your class is built.
Edit: I speak from experience as I have a 60 TR, 60 GWF and 60 Cleric.... the TR specc'd for pure single target DPS with some debuff additions such as Courage Breaker...
GWF specc'd for survivability and multiple target heavy DPS
Cleric pure healing
It's true that the present issues of GWF are largely contributed to by a community generated illusion. Unfortunately, it doesn't change the fact that in terms of efficacy, the roles that GWFs and GFs serve are not compelling enough to vie for in place of the vastly better alternatives. I feel as though my GWF is capable enough--I handle myself as well as most do in PvP (well... given auspicious circumstances), and in PvE, sure I don't dish out single-target DPS like a TR or have good crowd management like a CW but I can still contribute well enough... it doesn't change the fact however, that many T2 dungeon teams simply refuse to accept me into the party because I'm a GWF. It comes down to specialization and the very blurry territory that GWF claims...
Yeah, you got owned there Possum. Lichlament is exactly right. GWF are great. I hate running without one. But, imo, the game gimps so you have to sometimes. Aggro issues (when I forget to remove gear and reequip), and buggy boss fights, with adds that constantly, endlessly, pop up, is the real problem. Maybe, just maybe, gwf can use a little bump. But not a large bump in damage. If they were in line with rogues, as some would have it, the damage would be off the charts.
Guardian fighters need a shield fix, and some way to hold aggro better. The other issues would fix that a bit.
I consider myself blessed the first guild i latched on with is full of older, very mature players all 30 + and who know what they are doing.
I know there are guild out there filled with younger players and casual minded players ( Players who dont pour over every nook and cranny of characters and dungeons and lore , etc.. )
By staying away from the bottom feeders and surrounding yourself with successful players with knowledge, you will find yourself having better success in dungeons and groups.
Success breeds success.
1. Fix GF aggro and Fix GF shielding. Also take away the ability for a GF to spam knock down. It's a trade off. you want aggro and survivability. You lose the ability to chain bash something / someone 4 times in a row.
2. GWF's carry a big stick and it should hit and hurt like one. So damage for multiple targets needs a large increase, 1st target taking a significant amount of damage and scale down from there. GWF can probably use some minor aggro addition as well.
3. Cleric threat to be lowered just a smidge more. Not alot... Clerics have ways to dropping aggro if they spec their toon correctly. Can carry low aggro and high healing. I just chalk up alot of the whining on the forums about cleric aggro as a problem between the keyboard and chair.
4. TR is fine. Out of all the classes I think TR is balanced pretty good as depending on how you spec, you can have a multitude of options. Stealth heavy, low dps... high dps, almost no stealth, heavy reliance on Critical and Combat advantage, which is already in place.... TR takes some planning on how you want to spec out and play your character. Out of all the classes, TR is set up pretty good for this.
5. CW seems to be in a pretty good spot too. Moderate single target damage, decent aoe damage. Decent crowd control abilities...
with more classes on the horizon, this will spread thin the over abundance of TR's and CW's as well, so it will allow more more playing options and variety as well...
I've currently got a GWF at 60 and leveling a CW. One of the things I would like for the GWF is more threat generation! It feels like they intended the GF to tank the big heavy adds and bosses. GWF feel's like it should be tanking the rest, spamming AOE on the adds to keep them off the squishier classes.
Single target wise I don't think the GWF really needs much doing to him, you can absolutely devastate people with the right combo's. If you have a GWF and haven't tried this, I strongly encourage you to do so.
Flourish > Takedown > Indomitable Battlestrike.
Get a squishy with that and you can seriously put the hurt on them. Admittedly it can feel a little clunky to get on sometimes (Flourish isn't 100% reliable, sometimes I've found it not hitting targets next to me, but other times hitting targets that it clearly shouldn't have been able to reach)
So in my opinion, pretty similar to those echoed in this thread.
GF. Needs more threat, there are a few bugs with blocking too so fix that and I think they would be great.
GWF. Also needs more threat, and boost the AOE damage a little. Maybe increase the targets they can hit, and potentially reduce the damage reduction on multiple targets. Also.. Axes... we need big f*ck off Axes.
This actually worries me. Because judging from these boards, the top requests are from players who want to make this game into something it's not, or just cry nerf X because they lost to class x.
I'm all for balancing and there are big issues, but I hope you guys also spot the posts of people that do get it to work, and not just the overwhelming majority of whiney posts.
Yeap exactly, this also means playing defensive minded and moving out of AOE areas rather than taking the hit in order to keep firing back at the mob. Less healing needed = less agro on the healer.
Said the person who only level his GF to level 18 and never done any Epic Dungeon. Please come back here and say how great your GF is and how you can handle all threat, block just fine doing the Epic Version of the Dungeon. Just because you solo the Clock Tower with your GF doesn't mean anything because it was one of the most easiest and push over boss in the game. How about trying the Mad Dragon and come here you successfully did it without no wipe with your great GF?
I'm a level 60 GF, 12,100 GS and full tank/support. The way my items are set up I get 40% extra shield. In tier 2 dungeons my shield gets one shot. Sure I can just tank the creep hits, but I die if our DC isn't competent, and then if my DC IS competent he/she just gets all the agro then they get slaughtered. The game for GF's is rather easy going up to T1/T2 dungeons. But when you get to those you'll feel how weak the class really is.
The problem with this is it feels horribly artificial: it feels like you're just playing against a stupid game-mechanic, not fighting monsters. "I'm going to hit this guy in the face a couple of times, but then stop before he starts paying attention to me". You end up with stop-start combat for everyone but the tank, who just whales away madly trying to hold aggro and it feels...stupid. "I want to keep everyone alive, but not SO alive that I start appearing threatening, so I'll toss out a heal, then make a cup of tea."
"Threat" is an artifical construct that really stands out as feeling artificial.
Ideally you'd want encounters to feel more dynamic and involving, possibly a bit more like you were playing against actual people (so in a sense "EVERYONE GANK TEH HEALER" is pretty realistic), with more emphasis on positioning and control (tank doesn't 'draw aggro', he just gets in the way), and less emphasis on arbitrary threat management. Course, every boss battle being pretty much in a giant arena doesn't make positioning a particularly viable option, but still. It'd be more fun than sitting there with a DPS/Heal tracker telling you "whup: take five, hotshot, or they'll start actually hitting you".
Maybe it's just me, but I feel like this is the ONLY combination I see GWFs use... But, I've made that argument in a couple of threads now that Neverwinter and variety leaves much to be desired.