GWF. Are they as bad as everyone says?

thorsonwong · June 2013

So, the title essentially asks what I am supposed to ask here. Are they? Right now, I'm rolling a GWF for SnGs because I have another character slot, and I'm probably going to do it regardless of what people say in this post, but... are they /really/ that bad? I know that they don't AoE as well as the CW, and they don't flat out nuke as well as the TR, but are they so useless that they don't even warrant a playthrough (as some people are saying)?

snugglemancer · June 2013

They have a bit more trouble leveling than other classes but if that's all you want to do you should go for it. If you want to be an asset to a party end game then you shouldn't bother.

patsboem · June 2013

Its something you have to try for your self: spend a few hours leveling. For me its the mos fun class in the game, but the lack of a powerfull single target At-will makes it an awkward experience. Its like this: dpsing down a big mob takes ages. You have the biggest weapon in game which main strength is wiping the little mobs and ads. As i understand before Open Beta it was a powerfull class. Since they went in open Beta they nerfed it to the ground.

dukkha · June 2013

In short, no, they are not as bad as everyone says they are. I took my GWF from 1-60 doing every single quest along the way (minus dungeons and skirmishes because the xp is poor) and I solo'd every minute of it. I used the cleric companion gained at lvl 16. Some fights might get a little sketchy but that makes it interesting

spacejew · June 2013

No, they are not as bad as everyone says. It's not a Jesus H. Christ class to play either, but it does the job it's designed to do quite well. You will need to try a bit harder than some other classes to do your job, and know that some other classes can make you useless in fights. (Namely, knockback CW.) You will also have a hard time finding a group in T2 dungeons that have ledges to knock add's off of.

Still, expect level 1-16 to be painful. Once you get the Cleric minion it's a whole new ball game. It's a very satisfying class to play.

When it comes time to choose between Instigator and Destroyer I recommend doing your research through various forum builds to decide what style works for you. I'd practice with Reaping Strike and Wicked Strikes to decide what fits your style better, and based on that I'd choose your Paragon line.

I assume you won't choose Sentinel, but if that's what you're going for more power to you. I wish you luck regardless.

modimor · June 2013

CW's and GWF's kinda works against one and other, CW's knocks everything around, while as a GWF you want everything to be in one place. But you have tools to get stuff were you want it. If you're doing dungeons. The best setup for GWF is 2 TR's for bursting on champ mobs and bosses, 2 DC's, one for healing and one a dps DC. And ofc the GWF. GWF can tank the bosses. You can swap out one TR for a Single Target CW or the dps Cleric for a AoE CW (AoE CW that doesn't use knockbacks) Or the dps Cleric for a dps GF)
For PVP you're really dependant on a healing cleric. A GWF and DC can hold middle against pretty much a whole team.

spacejew · June 2013

modimor wrote: »

CW's and GWF's kinda works against one and other, CW's knocks everything around, while as a GWF you want everything to be in one place. But you have tools to get stuff were you want it. If you're doing dungeons. The best setup for GWF is 2 TR's for bursting on champ mobs and bosses, 2 DC's, one for healing and one a dps DC. And ofc the GWF. GWF can tank the bosses. You can swap out one TR for a Single Target CW or the dps Cleric for a AoE CW (AoE CW that doesn't use knockbacks) Or the dps Cleric for a dps GF)
For PVP you're really dependant on a healing cleric. A GWF and DC can hold middle against pretty much a whole team.

I would disregard almost everything this person just said. They are not necessarily 100% wrong, but there is more disinformation here than not.

copticone · June 2013

modimor wrote: »

CW's and GWF's kinda works against one and other, CW's knocks everything around, while as a GWF you want everything to be in one place. But you have tools to get stuff were you want it. If you're doing dungeons. The best setup for GWF is 2 TR's for bursting on champ mobs and bosses, 2 DC's, one for healing and one a dps DC. And ofc the GWF. GWF can tank the bosses. You can swap out one TR for a Single Target CW or the dps Cleric for a AoE CW (AoE CW that doesn't use knockbacks) Or the dps Cleric for a dps GF)
For PVP you're really dependant on a healing cleric. A GWF and DC can hold middle against pretty much a whole team.

You are either running with some really awful CWs, or do not really know how they function. First of all CW will do knockbacks, that's right. But a CW that knows what they are doing will only time it just before the Singularity sucks everything up, that way, they get knockedback, then instantly gathered backup. CW use this tactic, to generate a ton of AP, which translates into more Singularities, which in turn makes everything smooth.

zzzzzdank · June 2013

modimor wrote: »

CW's and GWF's kinda works against one and other, CW's knocks everything around, while as a GWF you want everything to be in one place. But you have tools to get stuff were you want it. If you're doing dungeons. The best setup for GWF is 2 TR's for bursting on champ mobs and bosses, 2 DC's, one for healing and one a dps DC. And ofc the GWF. GWF can tank the bosses. You can swap out one TR for a Single Target CW or the dps Cleric for a AoE CW (AoE CW that doesn't use knockbacks) Or the dps Cleric for a dps GF)
For PVP you're really dependant on a healing cleric. A GWF and DC can hold middle against pretty much a whole team.

The best thing for a GWF is to be partnered with a *good* CW.. The absolute best -

spacejew · June 2013

copticone wrote: »

You are either running with some really awful CWs, or do not really know how they function. First of all CW will do knockbacks, that's right. But a CW that knows what they are doing will only time it just before the Singularity sucks everything up, that way, they get knockedback, then instantly gathered backup. CW use this tactic, to generate a ton of AP, which translates into more Singularities, which in turn makes everything smooth.

Thank you so much for putting this out there. Seriously. I don't care if CW use their giant knock backs, they just need to not be total morons when they do. Go tell the CW boards this, please.

When I see good CW's using that trick, I know that everything will be fine. Slam will still kill them all, and I won't be useless the whole dungeon. (Or until I leave, since I might as well.)

aandrethegiant · June 2013

Actually this is where rooting puts melee classes at a distinct disadvantage. I would love to see rooting go the way of the dodo bird, it would do wonders for this game.

As far as how fun is the GWF, its awesome. They are masters of AoE melee damage and tactics. Its not nearly as bad as some say. Educated feat are key, as are building up your dps meters.

patsboem · June 2013

i saw total biscuit's review of the game. He was talking to the developers and they played together: it was february i think, before OB. The devs explained why they choose to root players and tbh it had some valid points. Most important is the impact of skills when you use them which is way more noticeable when you stand in place.

I still dont know if i like it or not but the combat is one of the strongest points of NW imo. I also agree that the GWF is by far the most fun class to play. I started all other classes and lvld to

riggsx · June 2013

There is only one thing that makes GWF useless. One **** thing. KBs of cliffs..... The rest is fixed with a brain.
Fix this "exploit". And while you are at it, throw the GF's a bone, and kill Astral Shield.

As for rooting, I actually hope it stays as it is. Gliding around like a lunatic is what destroyed Warhammer online for me.

The class is great, tho. Most fun class imo.

eros1986 · June 2013

modimor wrote: »

CW's and GWF's kinda works against one and other, CW's knocks everything around, while as a GWF you want everything to be in one place. But you have tools to get stuff were you want it. If you're doing dungeons. The best setup for GWF is 2 TR's for bursting on champ mobs and bosses, 2 DC's, one for healing and one a dps DC. And ofc the GWF. GWF can tank the bosses. You can swap out one TR for a Single Target CW or the dps Cleric for a AoE CW (AoE CW that doesn't use knockbacks) Or the dps Cleric for a dps GF)
For PVP you're really dependant on a healing cleric. A GWF and DC can hold middle against pretty much a whole team.

AS a TR I yet have to find a boss who aggro anyone else than me....
The way the game mechanics work right now force "competitive, loot hungry and with a time is money mindset players" to avoid GF and GWF like a plague.

there are various setup you could bring in a party but the best is to have 2 CW control specced(not single target damage) with tons of recovery to trow adds around, 1 cleric (yes one, even for CN) and 2 TR, 1 TR would support the party with CC/adds while the other tank the boss alone, and when there are no adds(a fraction of 5 seconds) CW will have to use ray of awesomeness and TR's lurker assault= Profit.

As the game stands now, there are no way I would bring a GF/GWF on a party, not because i am selfish and i hate them, I am just not clever enough to come up with a solution which would allow my party to complete a dungeon in the same amount of time.

So to the devs i say, please change the game mechanics, make tanking work and worth it, reduce the amount of adds like at 50% and give GF/GWF some serious pve boost

For you OP, if you like the class and you don't mind the prejudice that you will suck, go on play a GWF.

unblessedhand · June 2013

Given the responses on this thread, I would say that yes, GWF as a class is as bad as everyone says. There seem to be some masochists here who admit that you have to try harder than other classes (ie, GWF is weaker), but then say it's still fun to play. That is pretty much accurate. GWF is a weak/difficult class, and the reward you get for playing well is basically being competent. It's easy for a GWF to be derailed, though, as others have mentioned. A GWF in a group with a bad CW will be extremely frustrated. A GWF in a group where the CW and/or DC are hurling things off cliffs will also be extremely frustrated. Since the latter is how most people clear dungeons at level 60, it makes dungeons somewhat unsatisfying for GWFs.

Also, GWF is one of the most useless PvP classes. To quote my guild's #1 PvPer, "Leave the GWFs for last". In other words, any other class has more damaging ability (or in DC's case, ability to keep their team healed) than GWF. The GWF in PvP is more of a nuisance than a threat when the teams are well matched.

mrvincent1959 · June 2013

I have played CW then Cleric....i recently started a GWF, now at level 24 and can attest to how underpowered they are. It has been a miserable experience so far.

spacejew · June 2013

unblessedhand wrote: »

Given the responses on this thread, I would say that yes, GWF as a class is as bad as everyone says. There seem to be some masochists here who admit that you have to try harder than other classes (ie, GWF is weaker), but then say it's still fun to play. That is pretty much accurate. GWF is a weak/difficult class, and the reward you get for playing well is basically being competent. It's easy for a GWF to be derailed, though, as others have mentioned. A GWF in a group with a bad CW will be extremely frustrated. A GWF in a group where the CW and/or DC are hurling things off cliffs will also be extremely frustrated. Since the latter is how most people clear dungeons at level 60, it makes dungeons somewhat unsatisfying for GWFs.

Also, GWF is one of the most useless PvP classes. To quote my guild's #1 PvPer, "Leave the GWFs for last". In other words, any other class has more damaging ability (or in DC's case, ability to keep their team healed) than GWF. The GWF in PvP is more of a nuisance than a threat when the teams are well matched.

Know what happens when you start knocking everything off cliff's? Your rogue goes with them since they couldn't cancel their Duelists Fury in time. I've seen it happen so many times and it makes me sigh every time. I'd have burned the mobs in about one second, but apparently one second is too long for some people. Namely, CW that are showboating. Not to say it doesn't work, but you need to stretch the game to make it work. It's just as easy to burn add's in almost every situation.

Also, not every boss has add's that you can just 'throw off a cliff', there are plenty of them where you must burn the add's, but since CW can repeatedly suck them in and knock them back over and over and over they do eventually die. If they're good and have their timing down, it works, but I lump that into the catagory of CW being high-risk high-reward. They could just as easily screw up once and be dead the rest of the fight. It's harder to screw up that bad on a GWF, at the very least.

Last point, if you consider GWF 'weak' because it's a solid #2 when played even halfway competently on the DPS chart than you sir should indeed reroll a TR. The only time a CW will out damage a GWF is when the CW is taking the GWF out of the fight with their knock back. Honestly, this is the only time. (Of course, if they vastly out gear you they would also have a chance.)

trickshaw · June 2013

When I was leveling I saw a metric ton of complaints on the forums. Never had a problem myself.

spacejew · June 2013

Heck, I complained when I started GWF. It does start a bit weaker than the other classes, but once you get a cleric companion that will carry you to the end game quite easily. The person that told me this is the only reason I continued with the class, but I'm really glad I did.

knoteskad · June 2013

aandrethegiant wrote: »

Actually this is where rooting puts melee classes at a distinct disadvantage. I would love to see rooting go the way of the dodo bird, it would do wonders for this game.

As far as how fun is the GWF, its awesome. They are masters of AoE melee damage and tactics. Its not nearly as bad as some say. Educated feat are key, as are building up your dps meters.

I'd rather have it just smoothed out, so basic movement can cancel animations (except for certain dailies, they could lock you to avoid cancel exploits like Avalanche of Steel.... and shhhh Savage Advance)

GWF by far feels like smoothest class in the game because of how sprint works for how often you can cancel an ability w/o having to displace yourself 25 feet, SO much more than any other class.

silknight · June 2013

GWF. Are they as bad as everyone says? Pretty much.

I've been around since closed beta and I saw the rise and fall of this class. Their abilities scale the worst of all classes. Leveling one is the most painful experience of the 5. It can attack more mobs simultaneously, but you're constantly chugging potions as more mobs hit you. Their attack animations are way too slow. Honestly, this class has no vision and no place atm in game, as much as the devs and mods and fan boys would like you to believe. Gearing it in end game is the worst as the prices for it's gear are ridiculous, mainly because GWF aren't clearing dungeons near any rate that the other classes are. It's the biggest cash sink enchant and pet wise of all the classes, avoid it like the plague until it gets fixed. You'll enjoy TR / CW / and DC much more than you will this class, you'll have more purpose and enjoyment in PvP and PvE. Once you get past the initial, "Oooohhh Big Weapon", there really isn't much to enjoy about the class. Save yourself the disappointment and just choose something else, and hopefully the people at the top will get a clue and get this class functional.

s3z3 · June 2013

^ What he said

copticone · June 2013

spacejew wrote: »

Know what happens when you start knocking everything off cliff's? Your rogue goes with them since they couldn't cancel their Duelists Fury in time. I've seen it happen so many times and it makes me sigh every time. I'd have burned the mobs in about one second, but apparently one second is too long for some people. Namely, CW that are showboating. Not to say it doesn't work, but you need to stretch the game to make it work. It's just as easy to burn add's in almost every situation.

Also, not every boss has add's that you can just 'throw off a cliff', there are plenty of them where you must burn the add's, but since CW can repeatedly suck them in and knock them back over and over and over they do eventually die. If they're good and have their timing down, it works, but I lump that into the catagory of CW being high-risk high-reward. They could just as easily screw up once and be dead the rest of the fight. It's harder to screw up that bad on a GWF, at the very least.

Last point, if you consider GWF 'weak' because it's a solid #2 when played even halfway competently on the DPS chart than you sir should indeed reroll a TR. The only time a CW will out damage a GWF is when the CW is taking the GWF out of the fight with their knock back. Honestly, this is the only time. (Of course, if they vastly out gear you they would also have a chance.)

I am sorry, but it doesn't sound like you are running with any T2 players. I have yet to find a GWF that can even come close to the dps of a properly slotted/feated/geared CW. Scratch that! I have yet to see a GWF doing more dps than a T1 (stalwart set) AOE dps specced GF! And I have ran with quite a few "good" players who have GWFs as one of their 60s.
That said, the hell with DPS. It is not about that. Even if a GWF, in some fantasy scenario, can match the dps of a CW, why in the world a party take one over another CW? What do they bring to the party besides some AOE dps? I am not bashing GWFs, I have one myself, and I hope cryptic fixes the class, by not necessarily boosting their DPS, but by actually creating a role for them, something that they can do better than other class, even if it is a small niche.

radiobandit · June 2013

copticone wrote: »

I am sorry, but it doesn't sound like you are running with any T2 players. I have yet to find a GWF that can even come close to the dps of a properly slotted/feated/geared CW.

As a GWF I'd have to say I have quite the same argument. I have yet to see a Properly slotted/feated/geared CW/TR come close to beating me in terms of Total Damage in any Tier 2 I've ran. Obviously the TR is beating me in DPS on ANY single target fights, but even in that Scenario Student of the Sword is granting any melee in my party a flat 15% damage gain, with Plaguefire further boosting the damage output.

momaw · June 2013

knoteskad wrote: »

GWF by far feels like smoothest class in the game because of how sprint works for how often you can cancel an ability w/o having to displace yourself 25 feet, SO much more than any other class.

Now if only we could sprint frequently enough to justify the fact the fact that sprint doesn't make you immune to attacks like the 25-foot dodges do...

spacejew · June 2013

radiobandit wrote: »

As a GWF I'd have to say I have quite the same argument. I have yet to see a Properly slotted/feated/geared CW/TR come close to beating me in terms of Total Damage in any Tier 2 I've ran. Obviously the TR is beating me in DPS on ANY single target fights, but even in that Scenario Student of the Sword is granting any melee in my party a flat 15% damage gain, with Plaguefire further boosting the damage output.

It's because 'properly played CW' is probably a code word for the type of CW that locks the GWF out of being useful. Of course they beat a GWF in that scenario, the GWF can't focus multiple add's with slam or any of their AoE as the add's are thrown everywhere. So yes, of course in this scenario the CW wins. The GWF still does far more with Arcane Singularity than the CW can if it's done 'right'.

CW don't even need to do it in such a way that it screws the GWF, but it's harder for them to execute the rotation taking the GWF into account even though it's more damage overall for the group.

giggliato · June 2013

Why doesn't the gwf use mobility to more efficiently gather the mobs near the ledge?

k3v0n0v1tch · June 2013

tbh, gwf is ALOT of fun, and i find fairly underrated. sure, they could use a buff to balance things out a bit, but, when you end up being the one to carry entire pugs, and when guild runs take you, the gwf over other dps to do speed runs, i think you'll find your own answer then ;3

breagandaerth · June 2013

thorsonwong wrote: »

So, the title essentially asks what I am supposed to ask here. Are they? Right now, I'm rolling a GWF for SnGs because I have another character slot, and I'm probably going to do it regardless of what people say in this post, but... are they /really/ that bad? I know that they don't AoE as well as the CW, and they don't flat out nuke as well as the TR, but are they so useless that they don't even warrant a playthrough (as some people are saying)?

I have a 60 cw and a 60 tr so I decided to give GWF a try. I always enjoy an underdog class. I first did some research looked at builds and decided on horc 18 str 18 dex to start. Maybe it was all the threads I read on what works rather than spending time reading what the people that failed at the class. I'm mid 50's now and never had any problem with the class. In fact I found the exact opposite. GWF just absolutely mows down groups. Their dps single target is lower but really not bad either. I have been in all GWF dungeons also mainly because people leave when they just see one GWF. It seems that the more we have of GWF the easier the dungeons get.

At low levels dungeons can be a bit of a pain. The clerics and CWs seem to think pushing a group of mobs away from a GWF is a good idea. It's not. I have kept pace with some rogues even managed to beat a few in dps in dungeons but nearly always at the top on total kills. It's role is really designed to take out large groups of mobs quickly, and it does that very well.

My advice is if you want to try the class. Look over a few builds and read up on what you should focus on in terms of gear stats. It helped me a lot and really made me view the class as the most misunderstood. It is far better than what the crybabies are posting on. But I also realize all the negative posts on the class will probably limit my ability to gear up in epic. It's been a fun ride so far, I found leveling super fast and easy on this class.

s3z3 · June 2013

breagandaerth wrote: »

...

As we all know there is no reward for killing trash, that's why it goes down the cliff, it doesn't need to be killed by gwf. Any end game dungeon is all about getting to the last boss AS FAST AS POSSIBLE to get the loot from him because everything before last boss is IRRELEVANT, and at the boss adds are CRAZY so the MOST efficient way is for cleric to kite adds while rogue double team the boss. IF ledge pushing would not be possible then gwf is a MUST in dungeon, cause he brings debuffs\crazy aoe. BUT as of now with all the ledges etc I will never ever ever take 14k GS gwf overof 9k GS cw\tr into my dungeon group, even if he's a guildie, I prefer my dungeon runs fast and clean.

And it's not player fault, it's DEVELOPERS FAULT!

breagandaerth · June 2013

s3z3 wrote: »

As we all know there is no reward for killing trash, that's why it goes down the cliff, it doesn't need to be killed by gwf. Any end game dungeon is all about getting to the last boss AS FAST AS POSSIBLE to get the loot from him because everything before last boss is IRRELEVANT, and at the boss adds are CRAZY so the MOST efficient way is for cleric to kite adds while rogue double team the boss. IF ledge pushing would not be possible then gwf is a MUST in dungeon, cause he brings debuffs\crazy aoe. BUT as of now with all the ledges etc I will never ever ever take 14k GS gwf overof 9k GS cw\tr into my dungeon group, even if he's a guildie, I prefer my dungeon runs fast and clean.

And it's not player fault, it's DEVELOPERS FAULT!

Cool story bro.

GWF. Are they as bad as everyone says?

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