The only developer approved usage of the report spam function is linked in my signature. By applying one's PERSONAL definitions, one becomes a griefer, and therefore part of the problem.
The.
Only.
Acceptable.
Use.
Of.
The.
Report.
Spam.
Feature.
Is.
To.
Use.
It.
On.
Real Money Traders.
If you're using it on anyone else, you're griefing. Period. The main problem with the whole chat ban thing is that IGNORE also mutes if enough people ignore you. THAT needs to disappear. Permanently. Leave the rest of it and start punishing the idjits misusing report spam.
The only developer approved usage of the report spam function is linked in my signature. By applying one's PERSONAL definitions, one becomes a griefer, and therefore part of the problem.
The.
Only.
Acceptable.
Use.
Of.
The.
Report.
Spam.
Feature.
Is.
To.
Use.
It.
On.
Real Money Traders.
If you're using it on anyone else, you're griefing. Period. The main problem with the whole chat ban thing is that IGNORE also mutes if enough people ignore you. THAT needs to disappear. Permanently. Leave the rest of it and start punishing the idjits misusing report spam.
It's sad the way we go round and round on this. People keep bringing up the same arguments to try and say the system is fair, and they keep getting shut down.
The spam analogy comes up, and it's a fair point. It might be acceptable. But what's the responsible cut-off ratio? Because in Neverwinter it's 20 people. 1-2% of the population of the enclave, depending on when you log in.
So for the spam analogy, that's 1 person holding 99 people hostage. He's not consulting their beliefs. This is not a "majority rules". It's not even a silent majority. He's not even ASKING them. Doesn't have to. What they want doesn't matter. Do they agree with him? Tough ****. Do they disagree? See Previous Entry. Every single thought, belief, hope or dream held by the other 99 people is completely, totally irrelevent. It's spam to him, therefore nobody gets to see it.
It's spam, it's not really a matter of opinion. If for some reason a person receives spam and says "oh goody, I got spam that I'm real interested in!!".........it's still spam.
attempt to sell unwanted merchandise by an unsolicited merchant in their inbox. ANYTHING that fits that criteria winds up there.
Those two statements contradict each other. If the solicited product is something that the person is interested in, then it does not fit your definition of spam as solicitation of, "unwanted merchandise."
The point is moot as Cryptic has stated that report spam is intended for real money trade spam only.
The reality is that people ignoring the OP (as is perfectly reasonable) because they don't wish to see traders' messages can lead to the chatban. It is entirely possible that no one used report spam on the OP. He may have been banned by ignores.
The problem is with a system wherein player A deciding that he doesn't want to see the OP trying to sell an in game item means that I and other players are not allowed to see the message either.
The bottom line is that as long as the developers are willing to give me a moderation tool, I'm going to use it as I see fit.
I'm not terribly interested in having a debate about why they gave me that tool or how they intend me to use it. I care about how it works and how I can use it to do what I want it to do.
In this case, I want a zone chat free of advertisements and I'm going to use the tools in my toolbox to get that. Anyone who doesn't like it really doesn't have much recourse.
Now, if the developers want to actually intervene and start controlling how that moderation tool is implemented, that's a different story. As of now, it's just a very useful tool that I can use to make zone chat readable and I'm going to keep using it.
I get that some people don't like it. I just don't care.
The bottom line is that as long as the developers are willing to give me a moderation tool, I'm going to use it as I see fit.
I'm not terribly interested in having a debate about why they gave me that tool or how they intend me to use it. I care about how it works and how I can use it to do what I want it to do.
In this case, I want a zone chat free of advertisements and I'm going to use the tools in my toolbox to get that. Anyone who doesn't like it really doesn't have much recourse.
Now, if the developers want to actually intervene and start controlling how that moderation tool is implemented, that's a different story. As of now, it's just a very useful tool that I can use to make zone chat readable and I'm going to keep using it.
I get that some people don't like it. I just don't care.
A very well reasoned and presented position. Thank you for taking the time and making the effort to provide it.
The use of exploits is a violation of the TOS. The report spam function's intended use is for assisting in the control of real money trading. In order to get what you want out of the game you seem to support using a game feature in contradiction of its intended use. In other words exploiting.
What other forms of exploiting for personal benefit do you support ?
At first I was only using report spam if people posted multiple messages within too short a time but lately I just use it for pretty much anything that annoys me or is borderline spam. If someone posts one simple line saying they WTB or WTS something that's cool, but multiple messages or too many items and I just report. I don't report anything that I don't agree with such as opinions, that would be ******y, just anything that constitutes spam of any kind. It really does clean chat right up and helps move us towards a better /zone. It's going to take a while but I think we can do it
Join responsible gamers and boycott the Xbox One Don't be a fool, Open Beta with working cash shop=Live Release
Those two statements contradict each other. If the solicited product is something that the person is interested in, then it does not fit your definition of spam as solicitation of, "unwanted merchandise."
The point is moot as Cryptic has stated that report spam is intended for real money trade spam only.
The reality is that people ignoring the OP (as is perfectly reasonable) because they don't wish to see traders' messages can lead to the chatban. It is entirely possible that no one used report spam on the OP. He may have been banned by ignores.
The problem is with a system wherein player A deciding that he doesn't want to see the OP trying to sell an in game item means that I and other players are not allowed to see the message either.
You may want to bother taking me in context(contradicting statements happening within a hypothetical statement in quotation marks versus a direct statement? Really?) before refuting. My only intention was, as best as I possibly could, to illustrate the actual internet definition of spam while simultaneously demonstrating that it does not require a one hundred percent consensus to be recognized as such.
That said, I agree that they seem to have made some attempt at a clarification, albeit an obscure post from three years ago in a forum that is not even this game. I do think that a more current and visible statement of this nature would be needed if you've any hope of continuing your spam activity. I also think it will have to be coupled with a renaming of the key to "report gold seller".
In fact, I played a game, once upon a time, that had a report gold seller key(I forget which one it was). It never even crossed my mind to use it on folks engaging in any other activity. The clarity was there that was needed to have no doubt as to who it was targeted at.
Their inaction FOR THREE YEARS suggests that this post is quite obsolete and that they are, in fact, satisfied with the side effect of reducing other types of unwanted spam in their games. I truly doubt that my willingness to agree that you've found evidence that using it against "merchants" will help, but more power to you.
A very well reasoned and presented position. Thank you for taking the time and making the effort to provide it.
The use of exploits is a violation of the TOS. The report spam function's intended use is for assisting in the control of real money trading. In order to get what you want out of the game you seem to support using a game feature in contradiction of its intended use. In other words exploiting.
What other forms of exploiting for personal benefit do you support ?
You're entitled to your opinion of what the report spam button's intended function is. I've considered what purpose it serves and arrived at a different opinion than yours.
I have no incentive to convince you that my opinion is correct. Certainly, the developers gave us that power for a reason and certainly they know what that reason is. Simply, which one of us is right isn't a debate that interests me. The only thing that matters is that they've given me a tool that I find valuable and I'm going to use it.
If I thought I was exploiting their moderation tool for personal gain, then I wouldn't do that. I don't think that I'm exploiting anything. I think they gave the community a tool so that we can shape zone chat how we want. Personally, I think the wikipedia model of community moderation can be valuable and I see the 24 hour mute function in this game as an application of that philosophy.
You obviously disagree with me and that's your right, but it's not going to stop me from voting with my mouse every time the advertisers come to zone chat.
The bottom line is that as long as the developers are willing to give me a moderation tool, I'm going to use it as I see fit.
I'm not terribly interested in having a debate about why they gave me that tool or how they intend me to use it. I care about how it works and how I can use it to do what I want it to do.
In this case, I want a zone chat free of advertisements and I'm going to use the tools in my toolbox to get that. Anyone who doesn't like it really doesn't have much recourse.
Now, if the developers want to actually intervene and start controlling how that moderation tool is implemented, that's a different story. As of now, it's just a very useful tool that I can use to make zone chat readable and I'm going to keep using it.
I get that some people don't like it. I just don't care.
That shows what kind of person you are very well. I pity you.
You're entitled to your opinion of what the report spam button's intended function is. I've considered what purpose it serves and arrived at a different opinion than yours.
I have no incentive to convince you that my opinion is correct. Certainly, the developers gave us that power for a reason and certainly they know what that reason is. Simply, which one of us is right isn't a debate that interests me. The only thing that matters is that they've given me a tool that I find valuable and I'm going to use it.
If I thought I was exploiting their moderation tool for personal gain, then I wouldn't do that. I don't think that I'm exploiting anything. I think they gave the community a tool so that we can shape zone chat how we want. Personally, I think the wikipedia model of community moderation can be valuable and I see the 24 hour mute function in this game as an application of that philosophy.
You obviously disagree with me and that's your right, but it's not going to stop me from voting with my mouse every time the advertisers come to zone chat.
I was not stating opinion. I was quoting a representative of the company that created the feature. You can think what you like of course but opinion does not trump fact.
People that use the report SPAM button to mute players that they don't like thats NOT selling gold thats exploiting and these people should be banned.
An exploit is an exploit it matters not how useful some people find it and don't kid yourself you can get away with it players have been banned for this in CO and STO.
And to answer the comment of a 3 year old game, that game shares the same cryptic chat server. A quote form STO or CO forums is relevant.
You don't like someone use the IGNORE button not the SPAM button. SPAM is for gold sellers only.
Just because a majority of people agree with it doesn't make something fair or right. Women weren't allowed to vote because a majority of people in power thought it might not be a good idea. Black people weren't allowed any civil liberties in the US because of the same reason and even then the majority still curtailed their liberties for years afterward.
Don't like those analogies? Look at the economy of Soviet Russia where the government was supposed to decide the monetary welfare of the state but instead made its official rich at the expense of the state. California is at this very moment a case study in what happens when you put everything on a ballot.
All over the world it has been shown again and again that just putting a decision into the hands of a bunch of self-interested people is a terrible idea. Who can't see this really?
I get that you want things your way, you want your chat to be your chat and if you are given the power to kick people out and it works then you will do just that.
But do you get that it is doing nothing to the gold sellers? Do you understand that they are much better at this than you and have been succeeding at beating chat bans since before you could spell Chat? Sock-puppet accounts, advertising pets, whisper campaigns, the list goes on and Cryptic put the ban-hammer in your hands and washed their own.
But are you even trying to knock out gold sellers?
Look at the preceding posts. You aren't discussing stopping gold sellers or other companies trying to boost the game's resources. You are at the throat of other players. Because those are the only people you can actually harm with this tragic system. You are striking at the only targets available suiting both the lazy company who wants deniability and the gold sellers who are entirely unimpeded by your non-efforts.
So setting aside the issue of fair or just, you ladies and gents, have been duped into being the cover for a company who cant be bothered to put an iota of effort into policing a system they created. And you are stabbing each other instead of addressing the reason for the system in the first place.
Please wake up and see that you are unequipped to deal with the focused gold sellers, please see that you are only capable of hurting other players in fits of pique and spite, Cryptic has placed you in the position of having to be insightful and just minded.
Do you think they did that in the faith that you could actually do it?
I report gold sellers as spam. I ignore people spamming chat selling stuff occasionally too. Apparently the end result - if you get 21 of either you get a 24 hour chat ban - is the same either way.
The argument above that using 'report spam' to report anything other than RMT is an exploit itself is just semantics and rather silly.
+1 for having a trade channel. I know there's a user created one, I think I'd probably use that if I want to sell something for gold - you only have to look at the number of these threads to know it's just common sense until there's a better solution.
Gotta love how the spam defenders are using a 3 year old post from another game to justify their obnoxiousness.
1) I'm not defending spam. Feel free to ignore it all you want. BUT. Because the chat is broken, ignore also silences. THAT is what needs fixing.
2) Cryptic designed THREE games. Champions Online, Star Trek Online, and this one. Neverwinter. All three use the same chat. That post is relevant STILL. You'd prefer I dug up older ones(yes, plural) from the first game, which launched in 2009?
3) I agree that Cryptic's lack of action on such a longstanding issue is disheartening, but....this is the new shiny. Fresh team and the game is in the spotlight. If we, as players can make it be known somehow that we're not taking this broken system anymore...perhaps this time, it will change. How did The Architect put it? Oh, yes. " Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness." I still hope (after being shat on by Cryptic since 2009) that they'll listen one day.
Zone chat is for general chat only, not for advertising your items. Selling your gear/items to the highest bidder is exactly what the Auction House is designed for. Create/use custom channels for this purpose if you insist on not using the Auction House.
The spam and ignore in game features are very important to the peace and tranquility of the great majority of players. Sometimes, someone gets banned that really shouldn't be banned. It's unfortunately but minor inconvenience considering all the good these features provide the community.
Now, if anyone can think of ways to improve the spam/ignore features, then feel free to start a new thread on that topic.
Since this one has degraded to bickering and personal attacks, it's being closed.
Comments
The only developer approved usage of the report spam function is linked in my signature. By applying one's PERSONAL definitions, one becomes a griefer, and therefore part of the problem.
The.
Only.
Acceptable.
Use.
Of.
The.
Report.
Spam.
Feature.
Is.
To.
Use.
It.
On.
Real Money Traders.
If you're using it on anyone else, you're griefing. Period. The main problem with the whole chat ban thing is that IGNORE also mutes if enough people ignore you. THAT needs to disappear. Permanently. Leave the rest of it and start punishing the idjits misusing report spam.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
What he said.
The spam analogy comes up, and it's a fair point. It might be acceptable. But what's the responsible cut-off ratio? Because in Neverwinter it's 20 people. 1-2% of the population of the enclave, depending on when you log in.
So for the spam analogy, that's 1 person holding 99 people hostage. He's not consulting their beliefs. This is not a "majority rules". It's not even a silent majority. He's not even ASKING them. Doesn't have to. What they want doesn't matter. Do they agree with him? Tough ****. Do they disagree? See Previous Entry. Every single thought, belief, hope or dream held by the other 99 people is completely, totally irrelevent. It's spam to him, therefore nobody gets to see it.
Those two statements contradict each other. If the solicited product is something that the person is interested in, then it does not fit your definition of spam as solicitation of, "unwanted merchandise."
The point is moot as Cryptic has stated that report spam is intended for real money trade spam only.
The reality is that people ignoring the OP (as is perfectly reasonable) because they don't wish to see traders' messages can lead to the chatban. It is entirely possible that no one used report spam on the OP. He may have been banned by ignores.
The problem is with a system wherein player A deciding that he doesn't want to see the OP trying to sell an in game item means that I and other players are not allowed to see the message either.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
I'm not terribly interested in having a debate about why they gave me that tool or how they intend me to use it. I care about how it works and how I can use it to do what I want it to do.
In this case, I want a zone chat free of advertisements and I'm going to use the tools in my toolbox to get that. Anyone who doesn't like it really doesn't have much recourse.
Now, if the developers want to actually intervene and start controlling how that moderation tool is implemented, that's a different story. As of now, it's just a very useful tool that I can use to make zone chat readable and I'm going to keep using it.
I get that some people don't like it. I just don't care.
A very well reasoned and presented position. Thank you for taking the time and making the effort to provide it.
The use of exploits is a violation of the TOS. The report spam function's intended use is for assisting in the control of real money trading. In order to get what you want out of the game you seem to support using a game feature in contradiction of its intended use. In other words exploiting.
What other forms of exploiting for personal benefit do you support ?
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Don't be a fool, Open Beta with working cash shop=Live Release
You may want to bother taking me in context(contradicting statements happening within a hypothetical statement in quotation marks versus a direct statement? Really?) before refuting. My only intention was, as best as I possibly could, to illustrate the actual internet definition of spam while simultaneously demonstrating that it does not require a one hundred percent consensus to be recognized as such.
That said, I agree that they seem to have made some attempt at a clarification, albeit an obscure post from three years ago in a forum that is not even this game. I do think that a more current and visible statement of this nature would be needed if you've any hope of continuing your spam activity. I also think it will have to be coupled with a renaming of the key to "report gold seller".
In fact, I played a game, once upon a time, that had a report gold seller key(I forget which one it was). It never even crossed my mind to use it on folks engaging in any other activity. The clarity was there that was needed to have no doubt as to who it was targeted at.
Their inaction FOR THREE YEARS suggests that this post is quite obsolete and that they are, in fact, satisfied with the side effect of reducing other types of unwanted spam in their games. I truly doubt that my willingness to agree that you've found evidence that using it against "merchants" will help, but more power to you.
You're entitled to your opinion of what the report spam button's intended function is. I've considered what purpose it serves and arrived at a different opinion than yours.
I have no incentive to convince you that my opinion is correct. Certainly, the developers gave us that power for a reason and certainly they know what that reason is. Simply, which one of us is right isn't a debate that interests me. The only thing that matters is that they've given me a tool that I find valuable and I'm going to use it.
If I thought I was exploiting their moderation tool for personal gain, then I wouldn't do that. I don't think that I'm exploiting anything. I think they gave the community a tool so that we can shape zone chat how we want. Personally, I think the wikipedia model of community moderation can be valuable and I see the 24 hour mute function in this game as an application of that philosophy.
You obviously disagree with me and that's your right, but it's not going to stop me from voting with my mouse every time the advertisers come to zone chat.
That shows what kind of person you are very well. I pity you.
I was not stating opinion. I was quoting a representative of the company that created the feature. You can think what you like of course but opinion does not trump fact.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
An exploit is an exploit it matters not how useful some people find it and don't kid yourself you can get away with it players have been banned for this in CO and STO.
And to answer the comment of a 3 year old game, that game shares the same cryptic chat server. A quote form STO or CO forums is relevant.
You don't like someone use the IGNORE button not the SPAM button. SPAM is for gold sellers only.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
Don't like those analogies? Look at the economy of Soviet Russia where the government was supposed to decide the monetary welfare of the state but instead made its official rich at the expense of the state. California is at this very moment a case study in what happens when you put everything on a ballot.
All over the world it has been shown again and again that just putting a decision into the hands of a bunch of self-interested people is a terrible idea. Who can't see this really?
I get that you want things your way, you want your chat to be your chat and if you are given the power to kick people out and it works then you will do just that.
But do you get that it is doing nothing to the gold sellers? Do you understand that they are much better at this than you and have been succeeding at beating chat bans since before you could spell Chat? Sock-puppet accounts, advertising pets, whisper campaigns, the list goes on and Cryptic put the ban-hammer in your hands and washed their own.
But are you even trying to knock out gold sellers?
Look at the preceding posts. You aren't discussing stopping gold sellers or other companies trying to boost the game's resources. You are at the throat of other players. Because those are the only people you can actually harm with this tragic system. You are striking at the only targets available suiting both the lazy company who wants deniability and the gold sellers who are entirely unimpeded by your non-efforts.
So setting aside the issue of fair or just, you ladies and gents, have been duped into being the cover for a company who cant be bothered to put an iota of effort into policing a system they created. And you are stabbing each other instead of addressing the reason for the system in the first place.
Please wake up and see that you are unequipped to deal with the focused gold sellers, please see that you are only capable of hurting other players in fits of pique and spite, Cryptic has placed you in the position of having to be insightful and just minded.
Do you think they did that in the faith that you could actually do it?
I report gold sellers as spam. I ignore people spamming chat selling stuff occasionally too. Apparently the end result - if you get 21 of either you get a 24 hour chat ban - is the same either way.
The argument above that using 'report spam' to report anything other than RMT is an exploit itself is just semantics and rather silly.
+1 for having a trade channel. I know there's a user created one, I think I'd probably use that if I want to sell something for gold - you only have to look at the number of these threads to know it's just common sense until there's a better solution.
1) I'm not defending spam. Feel free to ignore it all you want. BUT. Because the chat is broken, ignore also silences. THAT is what needs fixing.
2) Cryptic designed THREE games. Champions Online, Star Trek Online, and this one. Neverwinter. All three use the same chat. That post is relevant STILL. You'd prefer I dug up older ones(yes, plural) from the first game, which launched in 2009?
3) I agree that Cryptic's lack of action on such a longstanding issue is disheartening, but....this is the new shiny. Fresh team and the game is in the spotlight. If we, as players can make it be known somehow that we're not taking this broken system anymore...perhaps this time, it will change. How did The Architect put it? Oh, yes. " Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness." I still hope (after being shat on by Cryptic since 2009) that they'll listen one day.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
The spam and ignore in game features are very important to the peace and tranquility of the great majority of players. Sometimes, someone gets banned that really shouldn't be banned. It's unfortunately but minor inconvenience considering all the good these features provide the community.
Now, if anyone can think of ways to improve the spam/ignore features, then feel free to start a new thread on that topic.
Since this one has degraded to bickering and personal attacks, it's being closed.
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