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To The GWF Community: Sure Strike, Stop Using It
spacejew
Member Posts: 1,044 Bounty Hunter
I've been playing through more T1 dungeons on my GWF lately, and I've had the interesting benefit of being teamed with several other GWF. Now, two GWF are obviously not considered a good team makeup but it does illustrate some things playing in PUG's with other GWF. Namely, I see so many GWF doing it so absolutely wrong.
Now Spacejew, you might say, you can't say someone is doing it wrong. That's mean and opinionated and simply not true.
I'd be the first to say that there are multiple ways to do it the 'right' way, meaning that you are effective at a role in a team. That being said, I see so many people playing GWF so far below what can be achieved with one. The most insane example happened last night during a run at the Grey Wolf Den. Now, obviously most people would say a team doing GWD with two GWF is doomed to fail and I might agree with them. I wanted to see how I fared versus another GWF in the same dungeon at the same time though, so I went along with it purely out of curiosity.
The first thing I did was examine the other Great Weapon Fighter's gear to get a look at what I was up against. They had a higher gearscore by about 800, which isn't terribly significant. However, they also had the purple Unicorn seal sword whereas I was using an Ogre Club. (Pretty big difference between the two weapons, I expected to be out DPSed by a significant margin just because of this one detail.)
Their gear looked to have the same focus as myself, that being Power > Crit > Recovery > ArP. The real factor was the sword, as mentioned above.
Now, during the course of the dungeon I preceeded to rack up a full four million damage more than the other GWF. This isn't me being egotistical, but every single time I have teamed with another GWF this happens. I have not been out DPSed yet by another GWF in PUG's. I was second on the damage chart behind the Rogue, as per usual, but the other GWF was dead last by at least a million damage. I asked them what their rotation was, and it was identical to my own except their At-Will's were Sure Strike and Wicked Strike. WTF?
What does this translate into? I believe that a big part of why GWF is viewed as 'suboptimal' in almost every type of group is because of the players that are representing GWF for the vast majority of the class. I can't tell you how many people are Destroyer spec, which is probably one of the most popular spec's out there, who are using Sure Strike without even alternating with WMS. It's kind of absurd, actually.
This isn't the only reason, I'm sure, but it's got to be a big part of it.
This isn't me straight up telling the GWF community to step it up, but if most GWF are playing this way it explains so much about why the GWF boards are one topic after another saying the GWF is weak. The two examples I see quoted most often are that they get kicked from groups constantly (which has nothing to do with the viability of GWF, merely the perception of GWF viability.) and that they are never the number one DPS in a group. The other thing I see quoted most often is that you can simply knock all the add's off things during some boss fights. This is true, but there are plenty of fights where that is not an option.
Basically this says to me that GWF is more viable than people give it credit for. Also, each and every class has those 'derp' players that simply don't know how to play their class yet. It's just that GWF seems to have an over abundance of those types of players. It will surely change in time, but only if GWF players start playing the GWF as an AoE damage class instead of trying to turn it into a single-target damage machine. You will never, ever, beat a Rogue in single-target damage. It's just not going to happen. But if you focus on AoE damage you will see such a vast increase in GWF damage delt in a given dungeon you might amaze yourself.
Just stop using Sure Strike. Seriously, just stop. It's bad. If you use it you are bad. That's pretty much the end of the story.
If you are Destroyer spec, use WMS alternated with Reaping strike.
If you are Instigator spec, use WMS alternated with Wicked Strike.
If you are a Sentinel, reroll...I mean use Sure Strike?
Now Spacejew, you might say, you can't say someone is doing it wrong. That's mean and opinionated and simply not true.
I'd be the first to say that there are multiple ways to do it the 'right' way, meaning that you are effective at a role in a team. That being said, I see so many people playing GWF so far below what can be achieved with one. The most insane example happened last night during a run at the Grey Wolf Den. Now, obviously most people would say a team doing GWD with two GWF is doomed to fail and I might agree with them. I wanted to see how I fared versus another GWF in the same dungeon at the same time though, so I went along with it purely out of curiosity.
The first thing I did was examine the other Great Weapon Fighter's gear to get a look at what I was up against. They had a higher gearscore by about 800, which isn't terribly significant. However, they also had the purple Unicorn seal sword whereas I was using an Ogre Club. (Pretty big difference between the two weapons, I expected to be out DPSed by a significant margin just because of this one detail.)
Their gear looked to have the same focus as myself, that being Power > Crit > Recovery > ArP. The real factor was the sword, as mentioned above.
Now, during the course of the dungeon I preceeded to rack up a full four million damage more than the other GWF. This isn't me being egotistical, but every single time I have teamed with another GWF this happens. I have not been out DPSed yet by another GWF in PUG's. I was second on the damage chart behind the Rogue, as per usual, but the other GWF was dead last by at least a million damage. I asked them what their rotation was, and it was identical to my own except their At-Will's were Sure Strike and Wicked Strike. WTF?
What does this translate into? I believe that a big part of why GWF is viewed as 'suboptimal' in almost every type of group is because of the players that are representing GWF for the vast majority of the class. I can't tell you how many people are Destroyer spec, which is probably one of the most popular spec's out there, who are using Sure Strike without even alternating with WMS. It's kind of absurd, actually.
This isn't the only reason, I'm sure, but it's got to be a big part of it.
This isn't me straight up telling the GWF community to step it up, but if most GWF are playing this way it explains so much about why the GWF boards are one topic after another saying the GWF is weak. The two examples I see quoted most often are that they get kicked from groups constantly (which has nothing to do with the viability of GWF, merely the perception of GWF viability.) and that they are never the number one DPS in a group. The other thing I see quoted most often is that you can simply knock all the add's off things during some boss fights. This is true, but there are plenty of fights where that is not an option.
Basically this says to me that GWF is more viable than people give it credit for. Also, each and every class has those 'derp' players that simply don't know how to play their class yet. It's just that GWF seems to have an over abundance of those types of players. It will surely change in time, but only if GWF players start playing the GWF as an AoE damage class instead of trying to turn it into a single-target damage machine. You will never, ever, beat a Rogue in single-target damage. It's just not going to happen. But if you focus on AoE damage you will see such a vast increase in GWF damage delt in a given dungeon you might amaze yourself.
Just stop using Sure Strike. Seriously, just stop. It's bad. If you use it you are bad. That's pretty much the end of the story.
If you are Destroyer spec, use WMS alternated with Reaping strike.
If you are Instigator spec, use WMS alternated with Wicked Strike.
If you are a Sentinel, reroll...I mean use Sure Strike?
MoF/Thaum CW SS/Thaum CW IV/Protector GF SW/Combat HR SM/Destroyer GWF WK/Executioner TR DO/Faithful DC
Post edited by spacejew on
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I kept WMS/Reaping Strike for a while, but now I am trying the WMS -> Wicked Strike combo.
but I specced Sentinel and I'm not changing. if Sentinel really sucks that bad when I get to 60(i am about level 40 now), then I'll just not play my GWF.
I rolled a GWF for off-tanky AOE DPS, which means Sentinel spec. I have no illusions of main-tanking anything. but if what Sentinel Spec is supposedly designed for is not feasible, then f*ck it, I'll play something else. because Sentinel Spec is what interested me in a GWF to begin with.
Damage is still weak.
You would probably need to ask Trickshaw or someone else about Sentinel. I don't play that spec, I hear people say it's garbage, but I think the 50% damage reduction on a deflect while unstoppable would be pretty darn awesome. It's just a question of aggro management to take advantage of your survivability, which the general consensus seems to be that Sentinel blows at getting aggro.
The problem with Sentinel is the buff you get to Sure Strike by going down the tree is garbage compared to what Destroyer gets for Reaping Strike or what Instigator's get to Wicked Strike. 5% extra crit and 25% extra threat on a crit? That might be decent, if Sure Strike wasn't so absolute garbage as a damage ability. Even with 25% extra threat on it it's totally underwelming. And why the hell is a class designed for AoE given a single-target threat ability? Like that would ever be useful in any situation ever beyond pretending to be a GF.
That's kind of the point. You would be just as well off using WMS as alternating it with Sure Strike. WMS on it's own is almost the same damage as Sure Strike, but in an AoE. (While still doing basically the same damage as Sure Strike. So if it's single target, you still want to use WMS instead. It's that bad.)
It should be a huge, glaring clue to anyone with half a brain that Sure Strike is a tanking ability, since the buff to Sure Strike is in the tanking tree.
Yet still I see the majority of level 60 GWF using it. The example I posted isn't the only time I've seen this. I can count the amount of GWF not using Sure Strike that I've teamed with on one hand out of the dozens of times I've grouped with one.
I hate Sure Strike so much that putting a point into that feat has never crossed my mind.
Taking Intimidation for sure. extra threat on two skills that I actually use a lot. Daring Shout and CaGI. sure the damage is negligible, but negligible damage is better than no damage, I suppose?
Yep. Even for a Sentinel Sure Strike is garbage.
Oh, I can get a bit of extra threat on one target when I'm supposed to be laying down AoE hurt. Super. That comes in handy never, or if your group just absolutely can't stand the idea of having a GF in the group. (In which case I seriously doubt they would take a GWF instead. That makes me snort in amusement just thinking about it.)
Wicked Strike should be the level 1 At-Will.
Sure Strike should be removed completely, as well as Grudge Style.
The Capstone of the Sentinel Tree should be put where Grudge Style is. The new Capstone should be a a passive that grants 100% Extra Threat when in Unstoppable.
Intimidation should cause Daring Shout and CaGI to generate 25% extra threat and to apply stacking DoTs(meaning the DoT from Daring Shout and the DoT from CaGI stack) that tick for 5% of your Power each second for 6 seconds.
bam. Sentinel Tree fixed.
Fun fact, CaGI can already apply a DoT if you grabbed Deep Gash from the destroyer tree. You don't even need any of the shiney from Sentinel to do it. Not sure if it's intended or not, but somehow CaGI can crit as it pulls things in and apply the DoT. Not sure if it's working as intended or what though.
It's arguably not even worth alternating between WMS and Wicked strike since WMS has a better returning cone. You're also overestimating the difference between the 60 blue club and a unicorn sword(t0.5), it is practically nothing.
GWFs and GF's are top tier AoE dps. Playing a GWF competently just involves spamming at wills, knowing when to use unstoppable for maximum dps gain. Hitting multiple targets with IBS + Roar and slam uptime, is it really surprising that an average player won't understand that? I don't think so.
Ugh why is it so weak?
I wish it wasn't because I like the animation.
No, it's alternate WMS with another at-will. Even alternating with Sure Strike is pretty fail IMO, but with anything else it's great. Somehow plenty of people still don't know this.
Don't know why you have to be on some high horse spacejew. You yourself have posted bad builds before.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?247052-Why-GWF-are-incredible-and-fun!
Quote:
EDIT: This build below is terribad for destoyer, as I discovered. Not bad for a Sentinel, but the new Destroyer one is on page 3.
"A sin is a terrible burden to bare, Remdemption is the only solution."
Reason: destroyer is about getting consistent slam + unstoppable with roar/ ibs.
I can almost perma unstoppable with a good cw with me. Reaping strike have 0 synergy with unstoppable which is what destroyer is about.
In the dungeons though, yah, GWF made for AoE. Especially the at-wills. WMS and Wicked are pretty much the go to.
In PvP its laughable. Youll be swinging away half the match at one target with it. But then again our AoE at wills are laughable in PVP as well.
GWF needs something. Our sprint/dodge is the most useless outta all the classes. PVP it usually turns into a kite fest, which if the other team is half decent; youll just be Leroy Jenkinings all day. (If your in an organized group, we can be decent; but pugs GL)
Im really hopeing they do something with it. Otherwise I got that other character slot saved for the ranger.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
It's terrible even for leveling. I'm sorry you had to suffer through that slowness lol.
spamming WMS was far more beneficial on three targets than sure strike (duh) and even reaping strike (with and without WMS weaved in). The only thing that compared was Wicked Strike with WMS weaved in (WMS spam edging it out so very slightly). WMS spam and Wicked Strike with WMS weaved in were very close.
Interestingly, spamming WMS vs spamming Sure Strike with WMS weaved in, on a single target, was very close(with WMS not weaved in being less than WMS spam).
So, to reiterate:
Single target: Sure Strike with WMS weaved in
Multi-target(2+): WMS spam.
edit: no usage of unstoppable, not sure if that changes anything
Had no trouble while leveling. Took me like 2 days gametime, just doing quests. Didn't spam pots, used less often then Id expected (being up close in the fights and all). Healer did most the work, till the last zone; where she decided it was best for her positioning to be inside 2 inches of every cleave. Leveling in this game for any class should be a breeze. There and after YMMV.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
GWF are not viable in boss fights everyone would rather have a rogue to deal with the boss and wizards to deal with the adds. GWF can't even pick up mobs as well as a GF. GF have better burst damage, CC and AOE Encounters than the GWF and have bonus threat they are a much better choice to pick up trash in a boss fight.
At least my process is out there for everyone to see. I don't deny it, and the real build I use as you've said is further into the post. I left the first pages build up so that other people could follow my process, not to hide my mistakes. Apparently you did see I changed it, since you included the edit I included as the first line on the build. If you get bad numbers using what I laid out, than I don't know what to tell you. It's not the build, since I use it and do very well with it. It's the end result of many, many tweaks and plenty of dungeon testing.
To those saying Reaping Strike isn't good, you're right if you aren't a Destroyer. If you are a Destroyer than please tell me what at-will you use. Sure Strike is junk no matter what your build is, and Wicked Strikes isn't optimal unless you're an Instigator. So what do you do? Hold down WMS? I can already tell you that's a bad option. It's a separate discussion to some extent, but Reaping Strike is fantastic in the right hands. You can legitimately not like Reaping Strike, it's style isn't for everyone but it is highly effective if you bother to learn how to use it.
I put this post out there because I've seen far, far too many GWF using Sure Strike in their rotation and without fail it always produces the worst damage numbers possible for a GWF. If you are using Sure Strike, you do not contribute anything to your team. Another TR would be better than you in every possible way if you are using it as your at-will attack. There really isn't a way to deny that. It's a numerical fact. Parse it yourself if you don't believe me.
@Zizz:
Reaping Strike shines most as a single-target DPS ability for Destroyer. It's not bad AoE either although it's not the ideal for RS. I wait until the minions are toast, and then start weaving in RS when there are just a few stronger add's left alive. It is the #1 biggest damage at-will for single-target available to the GWF. You just need to make sure you're only hitting one target with it.
The reason people don't like RS is because you wait for the big damage numbers and it requires you to think to use it correctly. This isn't me calling people that don't like RS stupid, they just prefer a different 'feel' for their DPS. I think this is basically what the developers meant when they said the feel wasn't coming across. It was still a dumb as hell comment for them to make, but I know where they were coming from.
@Chuckwolf:
When the AoE damage At-Will's do more single-target damage than the single-target damage at-will than yes the single-target at-will is garbage. There isn't a big enough difference between WMS and Sure Strike to ever justify using Sure Strike IMO.
I loved you until I read the end. SS is, granted, WORTHLESS. I've killed so many sad little GWFs in 60 PvP who seem to think it's stock. NO NO NO. It's single target attack and pathetic buffs, should you even want to waste feat points to get there, isn't worth it, like at all. But RS?!!! Spacejaw no! Horrible skill, the charge time makes it freaking worthless in PvP, and even PvE sometimes it's god awful. WMS and WS, all you need if you buff right and set skills accordingly for PvP and PvE.
Sorry but I felt this deserved a follow up post since I'm apparently trying to debunk several things at once. You are correct, reaping strike and unstoppable seem to be bugged although it's not a unique property to Reaping Strike it's just the at-will that illustrates the bug easiest. After popping unstoppable, your next attack does not seem to get the bonus attack speed/charge speed that it's supposed to. It becomes evident when you try to use an ability immediately after hitting unstoppable. It seems to 'queue' the attack up and uses the pre-unstoppable values even though unstoppable is technically active. It does this with every single at-will attack, but since the 'first' attack is usually fast in most rotations it's not very noticeable.
Because of this bug, I always toss a WMS first thing in Unstoppable even though I would rather not. Then, each Reaping Strike receives the proper charge speed bonus. Considering you can only get in two Reaping Strikes before WMS debuff wears off and all three still fit in the window, it's not a huge issue as long as you know about it.
That being said, yes Sure Strike does need a buff because as it stands it is a waste of two points at the beginning of your tree. It is a valueless attack in every situation. The irony is that people will say Reaping Strike is garbage when it out performs Sure Strike both as an AoE and as a single-target attack.
Last thing, I still don't understand why people say Reaping Strike gives you less mobility. Wicked Strikes locks you in place, Reaping Strike does not lock you in place. Wicked Strikes is easier to cancel the animation, but Reaping Strike can be cancelled as well while still getting it's damage. Is it harder than simply holding the button down? Yes. Is it more effective if you can pull it off? Yes.
Using only WMS means you are under-performing. We are not rogues, who can simply hold down DF to win. I'm not saying you can always use Reaping Strike, it requires setup, but when something is hard to do and performs really well it usually means a skilled player does better with it. Since GWF can safely ignore most circles by using Unstoppable I don't see the problem in most fights. You can't even be interupted while Unstoppable, which makes RS even better.
You can fire off two fully charged RS back-to-back in unstoppable before the debuff from WMS wears off. It's a lot of damage, really fast. Ignore that, and you underperform.
EDIT:
For PvP you are correct. It is obviously a very very bad idea to use an ability with a super long windup in a game with instant dodges. I am simply referring to PvE. PvP is a totally 100% different animal for GWF.
If you are using Wicked Strikes on a Destroyer what is the benefit? It does a tiny, tiny amount of damage in PvE as a Destroyer. The best buff possible to WS is in Instigator, and without that buff Wicked Strikes hits like a wet noodle. 5% increased damage per target hit is a massive, massive boost and it's what makes WS viable along with the 50% power increase from the Instigator cap ability. Again, under performing as a Destroyer in PvE. Even then, using Wicked Strikes is better than using Sure Strike so I'll give people a pass on that one.
I wouldn't know, since with the current game bugs I don't care to pop my head into PvP. I've seen GF running around at level 38 with T1 level 60 swords equipped, and with all the fun little combo cancel bugs that are utterly game breaking I just don't feel like subjecting myself to that level of frustration.
I doubt at-will's matter very much in PvP for GWF, they're just filler until you unload your encounters to kill someone. At least that's my understanding.
@aierrs:
No synergy with Determination huh? You are either trolling or badly misinformed. If you are hit while charging Reaping Strike, or if you hit with Reaping Strike with the Destroyer cap ability, you generate more Determination than you'll know what to do with. It actually synergizes better than the other options that are available when speaking purely to determination gain.
Lets get back on track...
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