You notice all of Salvatore's Original Heroes had to die. BTW have you ever met Greenwood? He is a goofy silly Santa looking man with a penchant for perversion I can only dream of reaching!
I am glad the Hickaman's went separate ways. And yes some of the DragonLance rules were... interesting. I never wanted to play a wizard in that game! 4th Ed turned me from D&D to Pathfinder. I read there is a 5th Ed coming out soon to try and get back some of the old school gamers.
I figure it like this: if a fighter needs to get in someone's face, he does that by getting in their face, just like attacking someone is done by attacking someone. Not by having a dedicated character-class specific mechanic that allows him to "draw aggro, representing him getting in their face". I mean, can wizards do it as well? If it's purely a "my character wants to do this", then that's fine, and anyone can get up in a monster's face (though most would not want to), whereas if it's a class mechanic, then it means that "getting in someone's face" is something non-fighters mysteriously are incapable of. Which is weird.
That plus all the references to "DM's pity" and "DM fiat" just makes me think you've had bad GM experiences. I get that codifying rulesets in defined powers and abilities removes some of the power from a bad DM, sure, but it also robs a ton of freedom from a good DM, or hell, a good gaming group.
"What would my character do now?" is the sort of questions I like my groups to be asking, not "what powers do I have that aren't currently on cooldown?" (also, ndie: poison cloud has a duration, not a cooldown. Much like "being set on fire" has a duration, but not a cooldown. It's possibly splitting hairs but hey). Also, I am somewhat derailing this thread. Ho hum.
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quorforgedMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I figure it like this: if a fighter needs to get in someone's face, he does that by getting in their face, just like attacking someone is done by attacking someone.
And marking provides a mechanical way to represent that. You say "I get in his face so he's focused on me", and then you can point to your ability that backs that up.
Just as a d20 roll provides a mechanical way to represent swinging a sword at something. You say "I swing my sword at the orc", and then you can point to your ability that backs that up.
Not by having a dedicated character-class specific mechanic that allows him to "draw aggro, representing him getting in their face". I mean, can wizards do it as well? If it's purely a "my character wants to do this", then that's fine, and anyone can get up in a monster's face (though most would not want to), whereas if it's a class mechanic, then it means that "getting in someone's face" is something non-fighters mysteriously are incapable of. Which is weird.
What's weird about some characters being better at something than others? Isn't that the whole point of having classes?
A wizard can do it too, if the DM permits. The Fighter just has a clear power designed for that purpose, representing his greater training in the art of manipulating the battlefield and enemies through the force of his strength.
Just because you can physically place yourself in a monsters face doesn't mean you know how to make that meaningful.
Also, note that the ability has nothing to do with "Aggro" in the MMO sense. It's not mind control.
That plus all the references to "DM's pity" and "DM fiat" just makes me think you've had bad GM experiences. I get that codifying rulesets in defined powers and abilities removes some of the power from a bad DM, sure, but it also robs a ton of freedom from a good DM, or hell, a good gaming group.
Rules can never, ever rob freedom from the DM. It is literally impossible. Rules can only ever give the DM more freedom to run the game that he wants by providing more, and better quality, tools to do it.
It's not about bad DMs. Nothing can be done to prevent bad DMs beyond encouraging them to be better.
It's about making a Roleplaying Game a Game. When I DM, I don't want to be making decisions on whims. I want my players to be able to make decisions on the basis of predefined rules written by skilled professionals, and the dice resolve those decisions, whenever possible. Obviously more goes in the course of roleplaying than can possibly be defined by a predefined ruleset, and that's where DM fiat comes in.
"What would my character do now?" is the sort of questions I like my groups to be asking, not "what powers do I have that aren't currently on cooldown?" (also, ndie: poison cloud has a duration, not a cooldown. Much like "being set on fire" has a duration, but not a cooldown. It's possibly splitting hairs but hey). Also, I am somewhat derailing this thread. Ho hum.
4E doesn't have cooldowns. It has abilities that come back by resting for the night (just like older editions), and by resting for a little while (new, but really just the same, ultimately).
And you can always just say what your character does, and let the DM resolve it from there. Powers give you options that you know work in a given way, without having to ask permission.
The only difference is that they are not connected to the non-existent healing surges.
If the game had healing surges then every character would basically have an infinite supply of healing potions, but could only use a finite number of 'potions' between rest periods at a campfire or altar.
For normal encounters this would be okay, but if a player had a few tough encounters they may need to run a ways back in a dungeon to recover healing surges before pressing on.
Hardly the ideal situation.
But hey, you can always pretend that healing potions are just your character using a healing surge if it helps you. After all, in 4E that is what healing potions did; They allowed you to use a healing surge to recover a fixed amount of HP instead of whatever your healing surge would let you recover.
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quorforgedMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The only difference is that they are not connected to the non-existent healing surges.
The other difference is that potions in 4E are pretty much useless as anything other than an emergency way to revive someone who's knocked out. They're a waste of a surge otherwise.
In Neverwinter, they're highly effective.
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calaminthaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Maybe they took out the heaqling surge because it was a stupid Mechanic? My fighter with a free action can heal up to 1/2 his damage 12 times a day IIRC!
It does if you actually knew what hit points represent.
I'm sitting here felling a sense of wtf, are you serious with this post or what dude? Apparently you haven't been in to many Heroic dungeons or this question would not even be coming up. You seriously need to shut up because you clearly have no idea what your talking about. Healing potions are a necessity In this game.
Clerics can not heal a party solely on their heals. With the way targeting is done a cleric most of the time is running for their lives because of the high agro they pull. This post has to be a troll post there is no other reason for it because it is utterly stupid to even ask this question about healing potions..
Bring in the threat mechanics from 4th edition as well and no, clerics wont be running around in circles. Sigh... think a bit more on this then we can talk more.
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
edited May 2013
Yeah man, I'd love running back to a ****ing campfire every 5 minutes.
It is impossible to not take damage in this game, this isn't Tera.
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quorforgedMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It does if you actually knew what hit points represent.
Indeed.
It's astonishing how even though the definition of Hit Points has remained almost exactly the same from when Gygax wrote about it in AD&D 1E through 3E to 4E, people don't seem to get it. HP aren't wounds. Damage isn't taking wounds. Healing isn't closing wounds. They're an abstraction of a myriad of things, physical wounds being only one component.
Potions are in as they are and not limited use healing surges as would be appropriate because then they would actually have to think about their encounter design rather than just chuck adds at you...
Potion cooldown exists in combat, and out of combat it doesn't. Dailies are also not daily. Why? Because this game didn't go with a 4 encounter work day parameter that the tabletop goes with, it can't in an MMO. I am all for trying to translate as much into the game as possible, but some stuff can't or won't make the transition because of the differences. Encounters happen in real time, unlike PNP, where a handful of encounters, or sometimes just one, can eat up your play session. There such limiters as healing surges and dailies kinda work (without getting into a debate about what works or doesn't in 4E that should be on WoTC's forum).
Long story short, I think they translated it to an MMO with potion cooldowns and ability cooldowns to serve the same purpose in active time combat that healing surges, encounter, and daily limiters serve in the PNP.
Hmmm...I wonder if OP realizes that video games like MMOs take tons of coding while table top games just take a pen and paper. Maybe that could be why they didnt implement EVERY aspect of D&D verbatim as it would take an awfully ridiculous amount of coding and testing to get every feature of D&D implemented and working as intended, if at all possible. Its very easy to write rules for something, but to get a computer to reconize and apply them rules could be next to impossible. Maybe not necessarily for the potion thing but if your looking for a fully functioning 4e Video game you've come to the wrong spot.
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calaminthaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
An MMO already was around like that - it was called Everquest. Then WoW came around, had mass appeal because it was easy and everyone was the legendary hero of time, and now every single MMO is like that. Thank Blizzard for watering down the genre.
It's not WoW's fault to follow the money. Players did not want deep and complex character creation development type game anymore.
If they did they'd have stayed with older games. By the way they're still there doing very well for such old games.
In 4th Edition, WOTC brought about some pretty significant changes (whether you feel they were better or worse), and some of those changes are seemingly mimicked in this game.
However, one of the most significant is the creation of the Healing Surge and the Second wind.
Every character now has so many healing surges (affected by con and class choice) every time they are healed, they regain some amount of HP but lose one healing surge (normally, some powers do not consume one).
Additionally, if a character is bloodied (under half HP), they can second wind, which is basically 25% of your HP heal that consumes a healing surge.
I say 25% as this number is your healing surge value... literally almost every heal that spends a surge will at least heal you for 25% of your health, typically plus some bonus (1d6 + the clerics wis mod, for example).
When you run out of healing surges, you're screwed for the most part, as only a few sources of healing exist that do not consume these surges. You replenish these surges after an extended rest (the campfires in this game are the equivalent).
So why the heck did this system not get implemented? Is it really because basically anything by PWE has potion spam in it?
You could literally write a book of the differences and discrepancies and this bothers you?
Then your comment made even less sense. Second wind is actually a concept that works in real life too.
No it doesn't. As I have said 33 years playing RPG, he latest version of D&D is quite silly. Second wind... maybe. I have done enough sports and competitive Karate to understand/experience that principle, but to up and up heal myself, just doesn't work. hat is what potions and most Clerics were for... Unless you worshiped Odin, then you were SOL.
It's astonishing how even though the definition of Hit Points has remained almost exactly the same from when Gygax wrote about it in AD&D 1E through 3E to 4E, people don't seem to get it. HP aren't wounds. Damage isn't taking wounds. Healing isn't closing wounds. They're an abstraction of a myriad of things, physical wounds being only one component.
And this is a video game, can we all come back from lala land now?
You notice all of Salvatore's Original Heroes had to die. BTW have you ever met Greenwood? He is a goofy silly Santa looking man with a penchant for perversion I can only dream of reaching!
I am glad the Hickaman's went separate ways. And yes some of the DragonLance rules were... interesting. I never wanted to play a wizard in that game! 4th Ed turned me from D&D to Pathfinder. I read there is a 5th Ed coming out soon to try and get back some of the old school gamers.
Actually yes I have met Greenwood...he is the demented dwarf who fancy's himself Elminster, but he knows games, he gets why a rules set works and why it doesn't and his critique of 4e actually covered both the good and the bad...it's he is instrumental in development of 5th.
I doing the beta on that...and it's either going to bring them back or push them and the 4e fans further away and that's all I'll say on that.
As far as pathfinder goes good game, very solid version of 3.5 2.0 I just have a hard time respecting or purchasing from a company that employs Sean K Reynolds.
Personally I liked the 3rd Ed version best. our Cleric could prey for the spells he wanted, get them all, and if he/she needed a few more healing spells he/she could convert any spells remaining to a Heal spell of that level. That was quiet flexible.
No it doesn't. As I have said 33 years playing RPG, he latest version of D&D is quite silly. Second wind... maybe. I have done enough sports and competitive Karate to understand/experience that principle, but to up and up heal myself, just doesn't work. hat is what potions and most Clerics were for... Unless you worshiped Odin, then you were SOL.
Recovering HP doesn't imply you're actually closing wounds, because losing HP doesn't imply that you are actually receiving wounds.
Look at that article you linked. There are plenty of ways a Second Wind could be represented in the world.
The problem is that for some reason, while taking damage has always been consistent with the definition of what HP are, removing it was always treated as though every point of HP damage was actual injuries. Natural healing was very slow, and anything faster had to be magical. 4E made HP consistent by making healing symmetric with taking damage. Just as taking damage represents a myriad of things abstracted together, so does healing.
Actually yes I have met Greenwood...he is the demented dwarf who fancy's himself Elminster, but he knows games, he gets why a rules set works and why it doesn't and his critique of 4e actually covered both the good and the bad...it's he is instrumental in development of 5th.
I doing the beta on that...and it's either going to bring them back or push them and the 4e fans further away and that's all I'll say on that.
Then you are a blessed player, I would love to have drinks with him an see what his real feelings are on 4th ed. I hope 5th Ed comes back to more traditional roots. You are a lucky Son of a Gun to be in on Play testing 5th ed.
Why are there Healing Potions in this game? - because the Healer with f'd up -40% debuff needs to heal themselves - go figure.
...............vote for your favourite expansion.......... "Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity". ..............not this one then.............
Personally I liked the 3rd Ed version best. our Cleric could prey for the spells he wanted, get them all, and if he/she needed a few more healing spells he/she could convert any spells remaining to a Heal spell of that level. That was quiet flexible.
And folks who love 3rd love pathfinder, I'm a 2nd ed fan, the next version of D&D is taking elements from the previous versions, eliminating the tedium and offering choice from the previous editions (not so much D20) because hey show me a DM that doesn't use some form of house rules, I think this is smart because they aren't trying to best Pathfinder (which they couldn't do and that's a complement to Piazo) And they aren't running back to the whole open source thing, which wouldn't help at this point anyway.
Recovering HP doesn't imply you're actually closing wounds, because losing HP doesn't imply that you are actually receiving wounds.
In fact only Heal actually did that, or regeneration.
natural HP recovery was a function of 1 HP + Con bonus per day. So a stout 1st Lvl fighter could well shrug off that 3 point Giant Spider bite overnight, But a average health 1st Lvl Wizard may still be feeling the pain of the wound for a day or two with out the help of a Cleric or healing potion.
Then you are a blessed player, I would love to have drinks with him an see what his real feelings are on 4th ed. I hope 5th Ed comes back to more traditional roots. You are a lucky Son of a Gun to be in on Play testing 5th ed.
Blessed....I dunno around Ed you sometimes get the OMG what is he going to do or say now feeling especially when a much younger female is around, I met him years ago and maybe that's changed, lol Send me a PM I can more than likely get you set up testing if you'd like, they are expanding it all the time.
And folks who love 3rd love pathfinder, I'm a 2nd ed fan, the next version of D&D is taking elements from the previous versions, eliminating the tedium and offering choice from the previous editions (not so much D20) because hey show me a DM that doesn't use some form of house rules, I think this is smart because they aren't trying to best Pathfinder (which they couldn't do and that's a complement to Piazo) And they aren't running back to the whole open source thing, which wouldn't help at this point anyway.
Yeah I played that version too(loved it as well)! Still own the books for it.
I've gotta say, 4E D&D sounds awful. It sounds like they've taken a computer game and done their best to turn it into a tabletop game, with all the focus on tank/heal/nuke trinity stuff and very little focus on actual roleplay. CRPGs have always gone down that route because they're inherently limited in their freedom: they can't account for everyone's personal crazy choices and decisions so they limit your options enormously. I just...never thought someone would consider applying those limitations backwards to actual tabletop gaming. That's insane.
When I play table-top role playing games, I don't use D&D rules... they have sucked since 3rd edition. I use Castles and Crusades which is very much like Gary Gygax intended D&D to be.
So Healing Potions are indeed a long quaffing part of D&D.
I just wanted to jump in here and agree with you, pzzdachu. I started with the original brown box of D&D (Men & Magic, Monsters & Treasure, Wilderness & Underworld Adventures). Potions have been part of D&D since day 1.
Comments
I am glad the Hickaman's went separate ways. And yes some of the DragonLance rules were... interesting. I never wanted to play a wizard in that game! 4th Ed turned me from D&D to Pathfinder. I read there is a 5th Ed coming out soon to try and get back some of the old school gamers.
That plus all the references to "DM's pity" and "DM fiat" just makes me think you've had bad GM experiences. I get that codifying rulesets in defined powers and abilities removes some of the power from a bad DM, sure, but it also robs a ton of freedom from a good DM, or hell, a good gaming group.
"What would my character do now?" is the sort of questions I like my groups to be asking, not "what powers do I have that aren't currently on cooldown?" (also, ndie: poison cloud has a duration, not a cooldown. Much like "being set on fire" has a duration, but not a cooldown. It's possibly splitting hairs but hey). Also, I am somewhat derailing this thread. Ho hum.
And marking provides a mechanical way to represent that. You say "I get in his face so he's focused on me", and then you can point to your ability that backs that up.
Just as a d20 roll provides a mechanical way to represent swinging a sword at something. You say "I swing my sword at the orc", and then you can point to your ability that backs that up.
What's weird about some characters being better at something than others? Isn't that the whole point of having classes?
A wizard can do it too, if the DM permits. The Fighter just has a clear power designed for that purpose, representing his greater training in the art of manipulating the battlefield and enemies through the force of his strength.
Just because you can physically place yourself in a monsters face doesn't mean you know how to make that meaningful.
Also, note that the ability has nothing to do with "Aggro" in the MMO sense. It's not mind control.
Rules can never, ever rob freedom from the DM. It is literally impossible. Rules can only ever give the DM more freedom to run the game that he wants by providing more, and better quality, tools to do it.
It's not about bad DMs. Nothing can be done to prevent bad DMs beyond encouraging them to be better.
It's about making a Roleplaying Game a Game. When I DM, I don't want to be making decisions on whims. I want my players to be able to make decisions on the basis of predefined rules written by skilled professionals, and the dice resolve those decisions, whenever possible. Obviously more goes in the course of roleplaying than can possibly be defined by a predefined ruleset, and that's where DM fiat comes in.
4E doesn't have cooldowns. It has abilities that come back by resting for the night (just like older editions), and by resting for a little while (new, but really just the same, ultimately).
And you can always just say what your character does, and let the DM resolve it from there. Powers give you options that you know work in a given way, without having to ask permission.
The only difference is that they are not connected to the non-existent healing surges.
If the game had healing surges then every character would basically have an infinite supply of healing potions, but could only use a finite number of 'potions' between rest periods at a campfire or altar.
For normal encounters this would be okay, but if a player had a few tough encounters they may need to run a ways back in a dungeon to recover healing surges before pressing on.
Hardly the ideal situation.
But hey, you can always pretend that healing potions are just your character using a healing surge if it helps you. After all, in 4E that is what healing potions did; They allowed you to use a healing surge to recover a fixed amount of HP instead of whatever your healing surge would let you recover.
The other difference is that potions in 4E are pretty much useless as anything other than an emergency way to revive someone who's knocked out. They're a waste of a surge otherwise.
In Neverwinter, they're highly effective.
It does if you actually knew what hit points represent.
Bring in the threat mechanics from 4th edition as well and no, clerics wont be running around in circles. Sigh... think a bit more on this then we can talk more.
It is impossible to not take damage in this game, this isn't Tera.
Indeed.
It's astonishing how even though the definition of Hit Points has remained almost exactly the same from when Gygax wrote about it in AD&D 1E through 3E to 4E, people don't seem to get it. HP aren't wounds. Damage isn't taking wounds. Healing isn't closing wounds. They're an abstraction of a myriad of things, physical wounds being only one component.
Potion cooldown exists in combat, and out of combat it doesn't. Dailies are also not daily. Why? Because this game didn't go with a 4 encounter work day parameter that the tabletop goes with, it can't in an MMO. I am all for trying to translate as much into the game as possible, but some stuff can't or won't make the transition because of the differences. Encounters happen in real time, unlike PNP, where a handful of encounters, or sometimes just one, can eat up your play session. There such limiters as healing surges and dailies kinda work (without getting into a debate about what works or doesn't in 4E that should be on WoTC's forum).
Long story short, I think they translated it to an MMO with potion cooldowns and ability cooldowns to serve the same purpose in active time combat that healing surges, encounter, and daily limiters serve in the PNP.
The mechanics may have changed but Hit points have always been this!
Then your comment made even less sense. Second wind is actually a concept that works in real life too.
It's not WoW's fault to follow the money. Players did not want deep and complex character creation development type game anymore.
If they did they'd have stayed with older games. By the way they're still there doing very well for such old games.
You could literally write a book of the differences and discrepancies and this bothers you?
And this is a video game, can we all come back from lala land now?
Actually yes I have met Greenwood...he is the demented dwarf who fancy's himself Elminster, but he knows games, he gets why a rules set works and why it doesn't and his critique of 4e actually covered both the good and the bad...it's he is instrumental in development of 5th.
I doing the beta on that...and it's either going to bring them back or push them and the 4e fans further away and that's all I'll say on that.
As far as pathfinder goes good game, very solid version of 3.5 2.0 I just have a hard time respecting or purchasing from a company that employs Sean K Reynolds.
Recovering HP doesn't imply you're actually closing wounds, because losing HP doesn't imply that you are actually receiving wounds.
Look at that article you linked. There are plenty of ways a Second Wind could be represented in the world.
The problem is that for some reason, while taking damage has always been consistent with the definition of what HP are, removing it was always treated as though every point of HP damage was actual injuries. Natural healing was very slow, and anything faster had to be magical. 4E made HP consistent by making healing symmetric with taking damage. Just as taking damage represents a myriad of things abstracted together, so does healing.
It's a thread about PnP rules, and how they relate to the video game. I do not believe discussion of PnP in that context is off topic.
If you believe this thread has gone off topic, feel free to contact a moderator.
"Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
..............not this one then.............
And folks who love 3rd love pathfinder, I'm a 2nd ed fan, the next version of D&D is taking elements from the previous versions, eliminating the tedium and offering choice from the previous editions (not so much D20) because hey show me a DM that doesn't use some form of house rules, I think this is smart because they aren't trying to best Pathfinder (which they couldn't do and that's a complement to Piazo) And they aren't running back to the whole open source thing, which wouldn't help at this point anyway.
natural HP recovery was a function of 1 HP + Con bonus per day. So a stout 1st Lvl fighter could well shrug off that 3 point Giant Spider bite overnight, But a average health 1st Lvl Wizard may still be feeling the pain of the wound for a day or two with out the help of a Cleric or healing potion.
Blessed....I dunno around Ed you sometimes get the OMG what is he going to do or say now feeling especially when a much younger female is around, I met him years ago and maybe that's changed, lol Send me a PM I can more than likely get you set up testing if you'd like, they are expanding it all the time.
When I play table-top role playing games, I don't use D&D rules... they have sucked since 3rd edition. I use Castles and Crusades which is very much like Gary Gygax intended D&D to be.
Technically, NWN was an AD&D game, however, half way through development WotC upgraded to 3.0 and had BioWare upgrade/update as well, IIRC anyway.
I just wanted to jump in here and agree with you, pzzdachu. I started with the original brown box of D&D (Men & Magic, Monsters & Treasure, Wilderness & Underworld Adventures). Potions have been part of D&D since day 1.
FWIW: I really am enjoying this game a lot!