This reminds me of a study done by Coca-Cola a while ago...
They surveyed people with the following question:
Most people thought that this made sense, since they are the beneficiary of the discount.
They then reworded the question as follows:
And quite impressively, people were thought that practice was robbery.
The reality is that either question resulted in the same effect at the end of the day... people just respond differently to the way things are presented.
The catch is that those don't take context into account. In neither case is a baseline presented (what is it being discounted/increased from?), so people will naturally fill that in with their own experiences of what something from a vending machine costs. If they're used to spending a dollar, they'll see the first as '1.00 most of the time but .75 when it's cold' and the second as '1.00 most of the time but 1.25 when it's hot'.
So what's that mean in this case? It means that if you make it '40% more effective for people outside of your group', people will still see the baseline - how weak healing is for them - and want more (or for it to be equal for everyone). It won't change anything, it'll just give it a different color veil to wear.
I'm only level 40, but I seem to burn stuff down pretty quickly and I haven't died once yet. To me that doesn't seem like a weak class at all. I do use the Cleric companion and when I have tried other companions(sellsword and the dog) the battles were tougher, but still survived.
Now in the few groups I've done yea we get some aggro, but to me that's what the potions are for. Those Oh **** moments ! I haven't tried PVP yet, and don't really plan to. There's too much of a disadvantage in these pay to win type games, but solo Pve I love the game and having the best time with my Cleric..
The equivalent would be for any other class to lose 40% damage if they have aggro.Make everyones hit generate the same amount of aggro,this would be truly equal to the clerics -40% healing to them.
Just because you haven't had a problem with this doesn't mean it is ok,there really is no reason for the penatly.
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valrain2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Everything was fine in beta weekend 1. At this point in the game, clerics below level 50 (when you get Astral Shield) are virtually impossible to level. Our self-healing has been nerfed almost 60% from that first weekend, and given the amount of QQ I see regarding Astral Shield, I'm betting Cryptic will either nerf it too or just remove that skill altogether.
Cryptic has not done a very good job of balancing anything, nor should they. We don't need "balance", there is no such thing in D&D. We need classes that make sense. I fear that the PvP kiddies are going to ruin the game with their mindless (and endless) QQing over every single game mechanic they don't understand or agree with. Why can't we have the PvE / Foundry side of the game and the PvP side of the game? Is it really so hard to separate the mechanics based on the game mode?
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nw000Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 11Arc User
edited May 2013
Think of Righteousness as a passive 40% bonus healing to your party. Everyone is happy now. :cool:
The alternative would be to do so little damage a normal mob would feel like an epic, and a soldier mob would take 5 minutes to kill. There has to be some balance somewhere.
Are you serious? Righteousness has to be the stupidest debuff ever in this history of healing classes.
On top of the broken healer aggro, it baffles me how made it into OPEN beta
hey guys we'll give you healing spells, but they are MASSIVELY gimped on you, enjoy!
Righteousness. Because healing yourself with full efficiency is wrong.
At first I really didn't see the point behind this, but as I plowed through the game, it's not really been such a huge hinderance.
And like it has been stated above, Forgemaster's Flame and Astral Shield are NOT mitigated by this "mechanic".
We need to use our dots and encounters to stay mobile and dodgy, both in PvP and PvE.
It's not like in other MMOs where you can just facetank any damage with sheer healing power.
We need to be smart, nimble, dodgy. And we sure as **** must NEVER RUN RIGHT INTO SEVERAL ENEMIES AND EXPECT TO SURVIVE IN PVP.
That doesn't work for anyone... (or so I'm told)
Now, as much as that "Mechanic" is a **** stain on my powers page, as much as I want to take it, strangle it with its own code and toss it out the window, I honestly don't find it that gamebreaking.
...but it still sucks.
Clerics need some love in the CC department IMHO.
And the aggro on healers in PvE needs a major slap in the face.
"Pugs are like Saturday Night Live Sketches.
Most of em' are awful, some of em are decent, and a few are pretty good."
The 40% is only visible in pvp and we all know that pvp isnt the place for the cleric the whole pvp is based in makes TR and CW looks like gods, but anyway if a TR can strike me with full CRITS power in pvp why WE clerics have this nonsense restriction. At least in pvp the heal on ourself should be at 100%.
But isnt a big issue in pve, im more afraid of grabbing agro from the whole room with my magnet-agro-heals than for healing myself 40% less.
You gotta be doing something wrong on the cleric if you feel weak or slow. Im 52 and have solo'd every quest so far. Very easy. We one shot low level mobs every time and Im unkillable due to the heals.
I can't wait to see your reaction in epic dungeons when every adds runs for you and everyone else gets healed and you watch your health go down so fast your like wtf! The only way to survive is to kite, run lots of defense/regen like unspecified.... actually make yourself as tankish as possible.
Especially if you PUG and no one picks up the adds its a lot of fun!
I like the idea that some have mentioned that for each party member in the group it adds +10% self healing.
So with a full group, four additional members, you would have +40% which would cancel out the -40%.
I would prefer to get rid of it altogether but "they" are worried about DC solo being too easy. At least this would be a compromise.
"Beware the engineers of society, I say, who would make everyone in all the world equal. Opportunity should be equal, must be equal, but achievement must remain individual."
- Drizzt Do'Urden
― R.A. Salvatore
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renegaderadeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited May 2013
Yes please take away the self debuff.
I hate dieing in PvP. Please make me unkillable.
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capnwinkythe1stMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The main reason you have to spam potions is because you have aggro on 90% of the mobs, not because your heals are diminished.
That's ironic...
because uhm, if you had stronger self heals, you wouldn't have to spam potions when getting <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> by half the dungeon. Seriously, if they removed this debuff, agro would be much more kind to deal with.
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coarsedragonMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
-40% healing to ourselves drives me nuts. In dungeon delves I almost always have all the adds on me and often times my groups don't even bother to try to get them off or even to kill them. I get downed in dungeons more than any of my party members ever do simply because if they have the adds I can heal them but when I have the adds I die. We either need a way to drop some of our threat so we're not the tank or be able to heal ourselves enough to stay alive. Or have the dps to burn the adds off ourselves. Either/or it doesn't matter to me.
I agree with this comment. Many, many times I have way to much agro and die too often when mobbed. I died 7 times in the last skirmish because there was never any help with the mobs, and you can not use pots fast enough. Agro needs to be adjusted (IMHO) not the -40%.
I can't wait to see your reaction in epic dungeons when every adds runs for you and everyone else gets healed and you watch your health go down so fast your like wtf! The only way to survive is to kite, run lots of defense/regen like unspecified.... actually make yourself as tankish as possible.
Especially if you PUG and no one picks up the adds its a lot of fun!
Running T2's now. Still no problems. Yes the adds come at you. Can I still stand there in my heals and facetank them all? Yes!!!
Only issue is if I stand in the bad red zone. Still the only people I see complaining about heals are ones not utilizing the battle cleric idea (this is what we are in NW no matter how badly people want normal mmo heals.)
Look for Deistic or Unspecified's posts on cleric. If you are anywhere near their builds and have sufficient gear and still have issues then Im not sure what the problem is.
I agree with this comment. Many, many times I have way to much agro and die too often when mobbed. I died 7 times in the last skirmish because there was never any help with the mobs, and you can not use pots fast enough. Agro needs to be adjusted (IMHO) not the -40%.
I have run every skirmish and it just sounds like you had a bad group or something. Ive run them all and died 0 times. Try it with a different group and see if the results are different.
Still the only people I see complaining about heals are ones not utilizing the battle cleric idea (this is what we are in NW no matter how badly people want normal mmo heals.)
I couldn't agree more.
Maybe I would add a natural desire to beat records, resulting in pumping power & critical strike mindlessly. This game forces the cleric to use totally different approach.
I rarely get downed or die now, mainly due to my stupid mistakes (missclicks ), lags or (very rarely) a terrible PUG group.
But before that happened I had to realize what are the class limitations and the class mechanics.
I don't care anymore if everyone in the group has 100% full health bar. My aim is to keep the group alive until the end of dungeon/event. I manage my aggro/heal in a way that I see effective and there is absolutely nothing effective in a cleric, who runs insanely around (or a dead one ).
I invested in defense, HP and regeneration (thanks unidentified for absolutely fabulous guide, it's you, who inspired me ). Temporary lacks in power and crits I try to cover up with build basing on damage mitigation, %HP healing and HP absorption based on damage dealt.
I admit, it could have been a bit easier for me to change the approach. Between Neverwinter and WoW/Runes of Magic/etc. I played Age of Conan (move or die!) and Guild Wars 2 (dodging is the king / no healer class / one is responsible for one's health, party mates can only support you a bit).
Don't get me wrong - I agree that Righteousness is a bad idea. I just don't agree that it's impossible to overcome that stupid handicap.
(thanks unidentified for absolutely fabulous guide, it's you, who inspired me )
it was Unspecified Error's origin build and post. Him and Deistic and a few others have really helped figure things out for cleric. The thing that surprises me the most is peoples inability to help themselves. I hit level 30 or so and started to have issues. It took less than 30 seconds of time for me to find the info I needed to completely change the game for me. Cleric is the only way to go. We may have less damage then the other classes but my damage means nothing when the mobs cant even begin to scratch my hp.
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zich13Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited June 2013
I've seen many arguments both pro and con for Righteousness, but the simple fact it the ONLY reason Cryptic ever stated for rigtheousness was that, in closed beta, clerics were hitting 60 with more gold than other classes, and they wanted to force them to potion.
Find me another post from Cryptic claiming *ANY* other reason for the heal debuff, and I will gladly read it and judge the issue anew, but the ONLY official source I've found on righteousness quote gold balancing and potion use.
Clearly potion use is no longer a problem, try leveling a cleric and do ANY dungeon. I will easily consume a 50 stack for each dungeon i attempt due to aggro being broken. On boss fights it is an on-cooldown use, and even then its not enough usually. Cleric is the ONLY class facing this headache, so the potions logic is laughably false and the debuff needs to go.
We are not a D&D Battle Cleric. That Class wears plate armor, with mace and shield.
The fact that the Devoted Cleric has to spec for a poor imitation of this, shows it needs changing. Otherwise there will be too much overlap between the two - or PWE will simply forget about a true Battle Cleric.
...............vote for your favourite expansion.......... "Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity". ..............not this one then.............
We are not a D&D Battle Cleric. That Class wears plate armor, with mace and shield.
The fact that the Devoted Cleric has to spec for a poor imitation of this, shows it needs changing. Otherwise there will be too much overlap between the two - or PWE will simply forget about a true Battle Cleric.
THIS, this, this, a MILLION times this. My cleric in EQ2 was more of a battle cleric than this..idol wielding (wtf is that thing anyway?) chain wearing, squishfest taht is required to be MT/AOE OT/Group heals with a -40% self heal debuff.
Comments
So what's that mean in this case? It means that if you make it '40% more effective for people outside of your group', people will still see the baseline - how weak healing is for them - and want more (or for it to be equal for everyone). It won't change anything, it'll just give it a different color veil to wear.
No, that skill is only for you and nobody else.
Now in the few groups I've done yea we get some aggro, but to me that's what the potions are for. Those Oh **** moments ! I haven't tried PVP yet, and don't really plan to. There's too much of a disadvantage in these pay to win type games, but solo Pve I love the game and having the best time with my Cleric..
Cryptic has not done a very good job of balancing anything, nor should they. We don't need "balance", there is no such thing in D&D. We need classes that make sense. I fear that the PvP kiddies are going to ruin the game with their mindless (and endless) QQing over every single game mechanic they don't understand or agree with. Why can't we have the PvE / Foundry side of the game and the PvP side of the game? Is it really so hard to separate the mechanics based on the game mode?
Are you serious? Righteousness has to be the stupidest debuff ever in this history of healing classes.
On top of the broken healer aggro, it baffles me how made it into OPEN beta
hey guys we'll give you healing spells, but they are MASSIVELY gimped on you, enjoy!
At first I really didn't see the point behind this, but as I plowed through the game, it's not really been such a huge hinderance.
And like it has been stated above, Forgemaster's Flame and Astral Shield are NOT mitigated by this "mechanic".
We need to use our dots and encounters to stay mobile and dodgy, both in PvP and PvE.
It's not like in other MMOs where you can just facetank any damage with sheer healing power.
We need to be smart, nimble, dodgy. And we sure as **** must NEVER RUN RIGHT INTO SEVERAL ENEMIES AND EXPECT TO SURVIVE IN PVP.
That doesn't work for anyone... (or so I'm told)
Now, as much as that "Mechanic" is a **** stain on my powers page, as much as I want to take it, strangle it with its own code and toss it out the window, I honestly don't find it that gamebreaking.
...but it still sucks.
Clerics need some love in the CC department IMHO.
And the aggro on healers in PvE needs a major slap in the face.
Most of em' are awful, some of em are decent, and a few are pretty good."
But isnt a big issue in pve, im more afraid of grabbing agro from the whole room with my magnet-agro-heals than for healing myself 40% less.
I can't wait to see your reaction in epic dungeons when every adds runs for you and everyone else gets healed and you watch your health go down so fast your like wtf! The only way to survive is to kite, run lots of defense/regen like unspecified.... actually make yourself as tankish as possible.
Especially if you PUG and no one picks up the adds its a lot of fun!
Most of em' are awful, some of em are decent, and a few are pretty good."
So with a full group, four additional members, you would have +40% which would cancel out the -40%.
I would prefer to get rid of it altogether but "they" are worried about DC solo being too easy. At least this would be a compromise.
- Drizzt Do'Urden
― R.A. Salvatore
I hate dieing in PvP. Please make me unkillable.
That's ironic...
because uhm, if you had stronger self heals, you wouldn't have to spam potions when getting <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> by half the dungeon. Seriously, if they removed this debuff, agro would be much more kind to deal with.
I agree with this comment. Many, many times I have way to much agro and die too often when mobbed. I died 7 times in the last skirmish because there was never any help with the mobs, and you can not use pots fast enough. Agro needs to be adjusted (IMHO) not the -40%.
Running T2's now. Still no problems. Yes the adds come at you. Can I still stand there in my heals and facetank them all? Yes!!!
Only issue is if I stand in the bad red zone. Still the only people I see complaining about heals are ones not utilizing the battle cleric idea (this is what we are in NW no matter how badly people want normal mmo heals.)
I have run every skirmish and it just sounds like you had a bad group or something. Ive run them all and died 0 times. Try it with a different group and see if the results are different.
I couldn't agree more.
Maybe I would add a natural desire to beat records, resulting in pumping power & critical strike mindlessly. This game forces the cleric to use totally different approach.
I rarely get downed or die now, mainly due to my stupid mistakes (missclicks
But before that happened I had to realize what are the class limitations and the class mechanics.
I don't care anymore if everyone in the group has 100% full health bar. My aim is to keep the group alive until the end of dungeon/event. I manage my aggro/heal in a way that I see effective and there is absolutely nothing effective in a cleric, who runs insanely around (or a dead one
I invested in defense, HP and regeneration (thanks unidentified for absolutely fabulous guide, it's you, who inspired me
I admit, it could have been a bit easier for me to change the approach. Between Neverwinter and WoW/Runes of Magic/etc. I played Age of Conan (move or die!) and Guild Wars 2 (dodging is the king / no healer class / one is responsible for one's health, party mates can only support you a bit).
Don't get me wrong - I agree that Righteousness is a bad idea. I just don't agree that it's impossible to overcome that stupid handicap.
it was Unspecified Error's origin build and post. Him and Deistic and a few others have really helped figure things out for cleric. The thing that surprises me the most is peoples inability to help themselves. I hit level 30 or so and started to have issues. It took less than 30 seconds of time for me to find the info I needed to completely change the game for me. Cleric is the only way to go. We may have less damage then the other classes but my damage means nothing when the mobs cant even begin to scratch my hp.
Find me another post from Cryptic claiming *ANY* other reason for the heal debuff, and I will gladly read it and judge the issue anew, but the ONLY official source I've found on righteousness quote gold balancing and potion use.
Clearly potion use is no longer a problem, try leveling a cleric and do ANY dungeon. I will easily consume a 50 stack for each dungeon i attempt due to aggro being broken. On boss fights it is an on-cooldown use, and even then its not enough usually. Cleric is the ONLY class facing this headache, so the potions logic is laughably false and the debuff needs to go.
The fact that the Devoted Cleric has to spec for a poor imitation of this, shows it needs changing. Otherwise there will be too much overlap between the two - or PWE will simply forget about a true Battle Cleric.
"Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
..............not this one then.............
THIS, this, this, a MILLION times this. My cleric in EQ2 was more of a battle cleric than this..idol wielding (wtf is that thing anyway?) chain wearing, squishfest taht is required to be MT/AOE OT/Group heals with a -40% self heal debuff.