I HAVE AN IDEA DEVS. NERF TR DAMAGE BY 60% why dont u troll TR since they are massively OP probably like GWF closed beta. If u say OH NO THATS A BAD IDEA? when was it a good idea in the first <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> place to nerf 60% dmg of a dps class. LOL like... idk what the devs r thinking
dont forget Mewbrey GWF have a hard cap on how many mobs they hit at once, unlike CW so basically they are only meant for really really small groups of enemies, not single target, not big groups .... small ones like 2-5... umm why have them around when a TR can kill the 5 faster than a GWF can and reduces the overall damage the team takes by taking them all out 1 at a time vs all 5 drop at once... or just have a CW CC and dps them down faster than a GWF can, or if its a big group the CW shines. remember a mob dead is one not dealing damage... a mob with 1% hp is dealing 100% damage
TR is bugged somehow in GS, even with full T2 gear you wont be higher then a GF with full T1
Ya gearscore needs some fixing. I put on a full set of pvp gear on my GF with green and blues on the other side and no augments and according to my gs I was ready to run T2.
How about everyone without a clue stop posting useless and terrible suggestions about balance? None of you have any access to the full quantitative data that is required to make significant changes. Your bias conjecture and hearsay evidence is useless to developers. Post about your own experience in game and about things you can actually attest to. Please don’t try and consider balancing the whole game or even your class. Post useful information like what you can and cannot accomplish right now with current game mechanics.
I HAVE AN IDEA DEVS. NERF TR DAMAGE BY 60% why dont u troll TR since they are massively OP probably like GWF closed beta. If u say OH NO THATS A BAD IDEA? when was it a good idea in the first <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> place to nerf 60% dmg of a dps class. LOL like... idk what the devs r thinking
Posts like this are despicably pathetic. You're either a child or a mentally challenged adult. Write and speak like a human being and communicate your thoughts intelligently and perhaps people will pay attention. Continue to post drivel and you will be ignored
How about everyone without a clue stop posting useless and terrible suggestions about balance? None of you have any access to the full quantitative data that is required to make significant changes. Your bias conjecture and hearsay evidence is useless to developers. Post about your own experience in game and about things you can actually attest to. Please don’t try and consider balancing the whole game or even your class. Post useful information like what you can and cannot accomplish right now with current game mechanics.
The problem Klipsta is that many MANY players have offered up numerous ways to fix classes like GWF and instead of people listening they prefer to spout "know your role" then in the same breath shout LFM for epic dungeon TR CW or DC only.... so the role of GWF is ... umm ... what exactly? trash dps? nope cant do that low dps + mob hit cap = broken. boss battle? nope little mobility with Shift other 3 used classes. CC? nope... tank? don't need just go out with 2 dc 1 cw 2 tr .... or 2 dc 2 cw 1 tr ... or some variant of this.
There are numerous threads regarding how to fix the classes ranging from change to an actual dodge mechanic, change the Tab mechanic so its not about getting beat on its for smacking other things... make them less squishy. TR for example just evades like crazy... and thats going Offensive based (your crazy to do anything else) uncap the mob hit. Get rid of the decreasing damage from hitting more than one mob and GWF Tab ability. I wont even begin to address the GF mechanics as i dont know them very much but i do know and understand GWF ones... at this point in time the only reason people go with GWF in the group is because A. there is absolutely NOTHING else wanting a group and they can **** near short man it... or B. they are friends and want to help the person out. Bashing people about getting a clue just because they want / need to vent their frustrations on having seen a kickass class in beta or heard about it, reading about in on the wiki or on the website and then playing it and they have nothing more than a janitor with a wet mop is more than a little disheartening.
Ohh and if you want useful information look what the difference in Gear score a GWF has to have vs any of the 3 non fighter classes to do the same level content, look at how many potions they chug, btw mine drinks almost 10x my CW or TR. If you would like to read more as what players are suggesting i would direct you to a member named Trickshaw on the forums. Enjoy the reading
0
Options
ioannides5Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
and the GWFs should be 1st in dps considering they are an AOE class, the fact that TR who are a SINGLE target can do 2x -3x the damage of an AOE class is what GWF are getting angry about, add in the fact that the GWF AOE is hardcapped at 5 mobs and just rotates around to what mobs it hits so you only do a tiny bit of damage at a time to each mobe = class broken. TR are the kings of single target and should be... but you should never deal enough damage to a single target at a time to double, triple , or more the total dps of an AOE class. Also the fact that GWF are not even the highest AOE class in the game and even CW out dps them whos PRIMARY is controll secondary is dps, and GWF are STRIKER first defender second that is what they are billed for ... wait for it ... = broken class.
from the neverwinter wiki
Great Weapon Fighter
Role:
Damage Dealer
Secondary Defender
so that tells me we should be doing more damage than say ...
Control Wizard
Role:
Controller
and as aoe it should be comparable or greater in damage than a single target TR when fighting groups.
Trickster Rogue
Role:
Striker
Ability Scores
Even tho I'm the OP of this thread, this guy is hitting the points I'm trying to make DEAD on. Thank you judicas for describing to these kids the imbalance among classes and how GWFs have it the worse!
This particular post I highlighted above is the biggest frustration. Not only is the GWF's puny damage a problem itself, as the class is a **** damage-dealer but doesn't even have the capabilities to do it efficiently, it's ridiculous seeing rogues do 2x or more the damage GWFs do in a dungeon, when GWFs should be FIRST on the damage done list. Hell, even CWs out damage us, if they chose to be offensive based. Why should GWFs be first on damage done? Judicas nailed it! 95% of dungeons are just huge AoE fests. So, how does a TR do more damage, SINGLE TARGET, than a GWF who is suppose to be this big AoE destroyer? You're going to tell me a TR doing damage to 1 target should do more damage than a GWF doing damage to 5-6 targets? That is just ridiculous! They never should have given GWFs the -60% damage nerf.. It was perfectly fine the way it was until they completely broke the class. Both our encounters and at-wills hit less than any other class... Why does a 2h wielder hit so weak per hit?
Next to damage, the next big issue surrounding GWFs is their worthless excuse of a dodge mechanic. Sprint? Really? It doesn't even give us any dodge factor, meaning we waste 10x more time setting it up and recovering, so we lose more dps than any other class. Quite pathetic. This one is even super easy to fix! just give us that charge encounter we have and replace it as our dodge mechanic, and actually add a dodge mechanic to it like every other ****ing class has.
My next issue is towards their dailies... Yes, slam is awesome, Probably 1 of the best daily in the game, however, why do we not have a good single-target daily?...We're restricted to only having 1 good daily while the other 3-4 are completely useless. Both TRs and CWs have an amazing single target daily (speaking purely damage wise), that both 1 shot people in pvp, and chunk bosses. What does our strongest single target daily do? in or around 10k. That's pathetic... Hell, even slam, an AoE daily, does more damage to a single target after the full usage.
Klipsta you want real suggestions? Bam, there it is, described why the GWF's current state sucks, and easy as hell fixes to make the class viable regarding it's 2 biggest issues (and daily issue since that 1 personally pisses me off).
Even tho I'm the OP of this thread, this guy is hitting the points I'm trying to make DEAD on. Thank you judicas for describing to these kids the imbalance among classes and how GWFs have it the worse!
This particular post I highlighted above is the biggest frustration. Not only is the GWF's puny damage a problem itself, as the class is a **** damage-dealer but doesn't even have the capabilities to do it efficiently, it's ridiculous seeing rogues do 2x or more the damage GWFs do in a dungeon, when GWFs should be FIRST on the damage done list. Hell, even CWs out damage us, if they chose to be offensive based. Why should GWFs be first on damage done? Judicas nailed it! 95% of dungeons are just huge AoE fests. So, how does a TR do more damage, SINGLE TARGET, than a GWF who is suppose to be this big AoE destroyer? You're going to tell me a TR doing damage to 1 target should do more damage than a GWF doing damage to 5-6 targets? That is just ridiculous! They never should have given GWFs the -60% damage nerf.. It was perfectly fine the way it was until they completely broke the class. Both our encounters and at-wills hit less than any other class... Why does a 2h wielder hit so weak per hit?
Next to damage, the next big issue surrounding GWFs is their worthless excuse of a dodge mechanic. Sprint? Really? It doesn't even give us any dodge factor, meaning we waste 10x more time setting it up and recovering, so we lose more dps than any other class. Quite pathetic. This one is even super easy to fix! just give us that charge encounter we have and replace it as our dodge mechanic, and actually add a dodge mechanic to it like every other ****ing class has.
My next issue is towards their dailies... Yes, slam is awesome, Probably 1 of the best daily in the game, however, why do we not have a good single-target daily?...We're restricted to only having 1 good daily while the other 3-4 are completely useless. Both TRs and CWs have an amazing single target daily (speaking purely damage wise), that both 1 shot people in pvp, and chunk bosses. What does our strongest single target daily do? in or around 10k. That's pathetic... Hell, even slam, an AoE daily, does more damage to a single target after the full usage.
Klipsta you want real suggestions? Bam, there it is, described why the GWF's current state sucks, and easy as hell fixes to make the class viable regarding it's 2 biggest issues (and daily issue since that 1 personally pisses me off).
Obv you dont know your class. Crescendo fantastic single Target daily. I main a 10.5k gwf. Do fine in pvp and usually 2nd dungeon dps to a CW.
INB4, INB4
0
Options
ioannides5Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Obv you dont know your class. Crescendo fantastic single Target daily. I main a 10.5k gwf. Do fine in pvp and usually 2nd dungeon dps to a CW.
Are you a ****ing idiot? Blind? Just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>? Or maybe all of the above? I clearly "stated speaking purely damage wise" Crescendo is very nice for pvp, to stun lock, however, its next to useless for pure damage (a.k.a. PVE). It does about the same damage as IBS. We're the only damage dealing class that doesn't have a real single target nuke. Btw, 2nd in dungeon behind CW?... no TR?.. you obviously are playing with complete <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Learn what you're talking about before you post your complete bull **** on here please.
Now why in the world would you do martial training, when you can do Guard Duty twice in the same amount of time, get 2 extra silver and 300 exp? And this isn't even comparing extremes - any time a rare Leadership task appears, the time vs. reward ratio is TERRIBLE. The only thing rare about it is how many people are dumb enough to do them.
Normally I don't back players when they're griping about balance, because all they're usually asking for is their character to be improved. But if they can't balance simple, obvious things like this that can be compared side-by-side, I expect that they'd be completely lost trying to balance classes with various skills, stats, abilities, purposes, etc. They haven't got a chance.
Clearly the people who made this game either have no understanding of the concept of 'balance,' or they're REALLY bad at math. Judging by how often my kits with 75% success rate fail, I'm thinking it's the latter.
0
Options
cihuacoatlMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2013
Actually GWF with an every good weapon T3 that is. Does amazing AoE damage...
If you are specing for single target you are wrong. If you expect to compete with rogues in DPS... you better roll a rogue. You are a tanky AoE DPS. Your primary roll is to kill lots of MOBs quickly... and at this they excel.
However CW have a lot more tricks and can do more damage... at the cost of 2/3 the HP and a fraction of your armor.
I find it confusing that the great-weapon fighter does not do more damage for each target being hit rather than having it reduced, would it not make more sense and encourage being an aoe class? Example:-
Weapon-Master Strike:
Deals 300-350 Damage, each target hit beyond the first will increase the damage by 12% up to 10 targets.
When hitting 1 mob target would take 300-350
When hitting 5 mobs all targets would take 480-560
When hitting 10 mobs all targets would take 660-770
When hitting 15 mobs all targets would take 660-770
Power level increase = Increase maximum target by 1 and increase damage stack by 1.5% Final result would be [Deals 300-350 damage, each target beyond the first will increase the damage by 15% up to 12 targets.]
Obviously just using easy numbers to work with for exsample, but it makes more sense to do it this way, and sure the great-weapon fighter would not have huge single target damage but that was not the intention of the class anyhow. But to battle the issue of people wanting to do single target on a GWF when the paragon class is added that's intended to do single target they can work in skills that work for that.
But the great-weapon fighter was sold as an AOE god, why does it lose damage when doing AOE? This would make it so they don't step on single target striker's toes and yet be able to fill their role as aoe strikers / off-tanks.
I actually have no problem with the whole "each additional target takes slightly less damage" idea, because it realistically reflects the blade slowing down as it cuts through multiple foes. However, the initial damage to that first foe needs to be 3 times higher at a minimum. You shouldn't have to swing your sword 6 times to take out trash mobs.
Actually GWF with an every good weapon T3 that is. Does amazing AoE damage...
If you are specing for single target you are wrong. If you expect to compete with rogues in DPS... you better roll a rogue. You are a tanky AoE DPS. Your primary roll is to kill lots of MOBs quickly... and at this they excel.
However CW have a lot more tricks and can do more damage... at the cost of 2/3 the HP and a fraction of your armor.
No one on here has said once they're trying to do single target damage cihuacoatl. Fact is though, a rogue doing single target damage SHOULD NOT! be out-damaging a GWF who is doing AoE damage 95% of the dungeon time. That just doesn't make sense.
0
Options
mewbreyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 517Bounty Hunter
edited May 2013
What I don't get is why GWF do less damage the more targets they hit, should it not really be the other way around. The more targets you hit the more damage the skill will do, you know to encourage aoe skills for the class that is intended to do aoe damage and off-tank?
Makes no sense that you get punished for aoe'ing at this point. Distributed damage, is like the clerics -40% self healing your getting nerfed for doing your job... great idea! -.-
What I don't get is why GWF do less damage the more targets they hit, should it not really be the other way around. The more targets you hit the more damage the skill will do, you know to encourage aoe skills for the class that is intended to do aoe damage and off-tank?
Makes no sense that you get punished for aoe'ing at this point. Distributed damage, is like the clerics -40% self healing your getting nerfed for doing your job... great idea! -.-
This is why gwf is pretty bad atmo, the damage dropoff from hitting multiple targets is far far too large.
GWF lvl 60.
Completed all content waiting for more.
And class balances.... trololollol.
I actually think "GWF do less damage the more targets they hit" is a great idea... But it just is implemented wrong currently... They make the damage reduction far too much to be viable... Even a 10% damage reduction per each target hit? so 100% to single, 90% to two targets, 80% to three targets etc. Do the math and at 5 targets you are doing 60% to 5 targets meaning 300% damage... Thats a TON. Even at 15% damage reduction per target is alot of damage... 85% to two, 70% to three but then it starts crossing back over downwards after that. so Maybe cap it at 60% damage... That would be amazing, while not hurting your damage on single DPS. I agree your damage should fall short of a rogue for single target... Rogues should only top DPS meters on boss fights honestly... Trash = aoe dmg where the GWF should be king along with CW for the CC and moderate AoE.
I think the class IS broken completely. Also to those that try and argue against it saying its balanced. It doesnt seem that way to me considering all the discussions I have seen in game and on the forums around it. Also my experience in the game has been they are the worst class currently. And you are only hurting the cause as well because i would wager for every 10 complaints about the class, it only takes one moron saying "it works fine" to counter all the complaints. Just think about that for a second before you post. Maybe you are the exception to the rule... Maybe you just run with bad people and can out DPS... I know I play a GF and the last dungeon I ran I came in 2nd on DPS behind a rogue but guess what, that was more skill then the class. Sure I have good opportunity for DPS, but I have to do it properly and will some skill and timing. Does that mean the class is fine? I would argue that if it takes someone with skill to play well, but a rogue can have NO skill and play well... Isnt that broken?
The class should do as intended:
GF: Primary Tank, secondary, damage. S
Current GF: Sucky tanks, OK damage.... = BROKEN!
GWF: Damage Dealer Primary
Current GWF: Bench warmer... = BROKEN!
DC: Healer Primary, DD/tank secondary
Current: Healer/DD/Tank... Working as intended (except remove stacking... thats OP)
TR: Damage Primary
Current: UBER DAMAGE... Arguably broken, call it a wash though so working as intended...
CW: CC primary, DD second.
Current CC/DD...working as intended...
So what is broken? GWF damage and GF threat! Fix it!
Gona write little about my experience, mostly the solo part,
already done a TR waiting to start going after T1.
Mostly I like to go around doing things solo to get to end game,
occasional skirmish here and there. And at end game enjoy raids with others.
It's stated that you should be able to solo it with a companion.
Mostly I could take down the bosses smoothly on first try,
but when I hit 40+ things got downhill fast.
Well geared and fitted, some of the bosses utilize stealth a lot
to pot up, time my timers and raise my companion.
Last two maps was insanely hard, near rage quit a couple of times,
but I would not give up, I will prevail, I must be doing something wrong.
Now Im making a Cleric, just hit 40+
My tank companion dies extremely fast, does not do enough damage,
all though max trained for a free one, enchants and gear.
Making a full healer and now I hit a brickwall, can prolly not solo any
fort coming boss. So progression trough solo game part is prolly busted,
and have to group up, all though stated you should be able solo.
So Im beginning to see and agree with everyone in this thread, serious unbalanced in all aspects.
I have done a few skirmishes and Im well gear and powerfull already as a healer,
and Im an aggro magnet for sure. While keeping everyone up, had to kite
because other once bizzy off-tanking minions.
So please devs take a serious look on these guys details
I think almost as bad as the fact that GWF are broken beyond belief is the fact that the only thing the devs have stated was they "just dont feel right" no kidding... it would be like putting Paul Mason at his heaviest in a sprint against Usain Bolt... of course it doesnt feel right... at this point in time every non fighter class is Usain ... GWF are Mason. ohh and yes i know how to play the class. ive topped damage charts at all levels, sometimes doubled that of a TR.... then at the end of the run when they ***** saying see GWF are not broken. I politely tell them they suck and need to learn how to play.... then i run with a good TR and he has 5x my damage while he is semi afk. My point is this, a great player can make a broken class decent, but why limit the player? put them onto a good class (TR/CW) and watch them run circles around those whiny people that have no idea what a good class can truly do. And before you say a thing I've run the dungeon with the same group just swapping out my GWF for my TR .... i did not double like my GWF not triple not even quadruple.. but around 8x as much damage as the other TR. That still puts me at 4x my GWF without trying very hard and watching TV vs hitting everything my GWF and paying full attention with it.
And before you say a thing I've run the dungeon with the same group just swapping out my GWF for my TR .... i did not double like my GWF not triple not even quadruple.. but around 8x as much damage as the other TR. That still puts me at 4x my GWF without trying very hard and watching TV vs hitting everything my GWF and paying full attention with it.
Yeah, the effort involved in getting ok numbers on a GWF is insanely higher than trying to get exceptionally high numbers on a TR. As long as you don't screw up your TR rotation you are ignored or invulnerable while applying constant insanely high damage. You can achieve that without breaking a sweat, just know when to hit Lurkers Assault and Impossible to Catch and you just outdid the next person on the damage chart by at least double.
Impossible to Catch is what Unstoppable wishes it was.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Impossible to Catch also gives extra Astral Diamonds when the TR is in stealth, makes his RL farts smell like roses and as a daily makes his internet connection faster so he can one-shot all five enemy teammembers.
Only scrub Rogues use Impossible to Catch. That's fact.
Are you people really that dense? Rogue has no stun ability, no root ability, nothing to keep you in place. When you see a rogue in full black, why the fk would you stand still? It doesn't even last long, just move away.
The skill is so god **** useless against good players and even more useless in pve because 80% of the time, the mobs are on the clerics.
For those complaining about the dps of a GWF vs. a Rogue. I have a few questions.
Most of the complaints and observations I've seen on GWF are incomplete, because they appear generic and uninformative to the devs other "than my class is broken because I can't kills things like a TR". Were you toe-to-toe? behind? flanked? Is there even a dmg bonus in relation to position for a GWF? Which companion were you using? bonuses applied? skills tested? Spec tested? If this has all been answered in another post I apologize.
I play a Rogue(56 currently) and a GWF(46 currently) and I almost always have combat advantage in every group or encounter playing the TR. I assumed I got the dps bonus because I am always positioned behind, flanked or stealthed when attacking, with pet attacking same target, and I meet the requirement as stated in the wiki (Combat advantage - When attacking an enemy, if there is an ally attacking the same foe from the opposite direction, both players involved will have Combat Advantage). Most GWF's I see stand toe-to-toe with multiple mobs, while I am constantly rolling, attacking targets from behind, trying to stay out of the boss or enemy AOE circles, and attacking from flank positions, with the exception of peeling mobs of the cleric.
Also, after referencing D&D rules, it seems we are talking about 2d4 for dual wielded weapons (TR) and a 1d8 two-handed weapon (GWF) loadouts. Every hit by a TR is a 2d4 (2 weapons ) which is 2-8 dmg (x2 for crit) for EVERY round of combat not including extra attacks of opportunity because of high DEX. The GWF would be 1-8(x2 for crit). On top of that, the rogue in PvE is constantly in combat advantage if played right. Why would the GWF ever out dps if the basic numbers already start them at less potential dps, according to the D&D rules.
I know the complaints are mostly end game, which I am not yet playing, but without the numbers for analysis, we can't help them and they can't help us.
If the complaint is damage, then it would seem fit to slightly increase the wielded weapon's statistics for GWF(if necessary), not alter the mechanic of the whole class, and create more imbalances to be fixed.
0
Options
ioannides5Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
For those complaining about the dps of a GWF vs. a Rogue. I have a few questions.
Most of the complaints and observations I've seen on GWF are incomplete, because they appear generic and uninformative to the devs other "than my class is broken because I can't kills things like a TR". Were you toe-to-toe? behind? flanked? Is there even a dmg bonus in relation to position for a GWF? Which companion were you using? bonuses applied? skills tested? Spec tested? If this has all been answered in another post I apologize.
I play a Rogue(56 currently) and a GWF(46 currently) and I almost always have combat advantage in every group or encounter playing the TR. I assumed I got the dps bonus because I am always positioned behind, flanked or stealthed when attacking, with pet attacking same target, and I meet the requirement as stated in the wiki (Combat advantage - When attacking an enemy, if there is an ally attacking the same foe from the opposite direction, both players involved will have Combat Advantage). Most GWF's I see stand toe-to-toe with multiple mobs, while I am constantly rolling, attacking targets from behind, trying to stay out of the boss or enemy AOE circles, and attacking from flank positions, with the exception of peeling mobs of the cleric.
Also, after referencing D&D rules, it seems we are talking about 2d4 for dual wielded weapons (TR) and a 1d8 two-handed weapon (GWF) loadouts. Every hit by a TR is a 2d4 (2 weapons ) which is 2-8 dmg (x2 for crit) for EVERY round of combat not including extra attacks of opportunity because of high DEX. The GWF would be 1-8(x2 for crit). On top of that, the rogue in PvE is constantly in combat advantage if played right. Why would the GWF ever out dps if the basic numbers already start them at less potential dps, according to the D&D rules.
I know the complaints are mostly end game, which I am not yet playing, but without the numbers for analysis, we can't help them and they can't help us.
If the complaint is damage, then it would seem fit to slightly increase the wielded weapon's statistics for GWF(if necessary), not alter the mechanic of the whole class, and create more imbalances to be fixed.
Most of us GWFs (atleast I do), are also always in combat advantage. Personally me, I try to always be opposite of the rogue in my group to make sure the 2 of us are always receiving CA. But that has nothing to do with the damage observations.
The big issue with regards of comparing a TR and a GWF, is yes, a TR SHOULD out dps a GWF on single-target fights, however, being level 40ish, you must have done a few dungeons by now. How many single target fights do you see? 99% of dungeons are AoE-fests. Now since you like to do math, tell me, how does it make sense that a TR over-all does more dps, and we're talking 2x or more the dps of a GWF? A player attacking 1 target at a time, compared to a player constantly attacking 4-6 targets at a time. If you wanna do math, and bring in all these DnD facts and scenarios in, a GWF SHOULD be doing 3-4x if not more damage than a rogue over-all in a dungeon, for the mere fact he's doing constant AoE damage.
I'm shocked that nobody has discovered the GWF's true role in dungeons yet. The secret lies in our Sprint ability. All you have to do is wait for the rest of your party to kill everything in a room, and then hold down Shift to activate your Sprint while picking up all the loot. GWF is by far the best class at picking up the loot that spews out all over the place. Every time I use my Sprint, people are like, "Wow, you're so good at picking up loot. Thanks!"
I'm worried they might nerf Sprint, because it's so OP. I guess the reason this has remained a secret for so long is that there is no scoreboard for "Most Leetest Loot Picker-Upper" when running a dungeon. If there was, I would be on top every time.
Gona write little about my experience, mostly the solo part,
already done a TR waiting to start going after T1.
Mostly I like to go around doing things solo to get to end game,
occasional skirmish here and there. And at end game enjoy raids with others.
It's stated that you should be able to solo it with a companion.
Mostly I could take down the bosses smoothly on first try,
but when I hit 40+ things got downhill fast.
Well geared and fitted, some of the bosses utilize stealth a lot
to pot up, time my timers and raise my companion.
Last two maps was insanely hard, near rage quit a couple of times,
but I would not give up, I will prevail, I must be doing something wrong.
Now Im making a Cleric, just hit 40+
My tank companion dies extremely fast, does not do enough damage,
all though max trained for a free one, enchants and gear.
Making a full healer and now I hit a brickwall, can prolly not solo any
fort coming boss. So progression trough solo game part is prolly busted,
and have to group up, all though stated you should be able solo.
So Im beginning to see and agree with everyone in this thread, serious unbalanced in all aspects.
I have done a few skirmishes and Im well gear and powerfull already as a healer,
and Im an aggro magnet for sure. While keeping everyone up, had to kite
because other once bizzy off-tanking minions.
So please devs take a serious look on these guys details
Uh, this isn't the game being imbalanced. It's you focusing entirely on healing when there's no one to heal in solo play. They said the game is soloable, and they are right. A cleric can definitely solo. Not if you make him the way you did though. That makes no sense.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
Also, after referencing D&D rules, it seems we are talking about 2d4 for dual wielded weapons (TR) and a 1d8 two-handed weapon (GWF) loadouts. Every hit by a TR is a 2d4 (2 weapons ) which is 2-8 dmg (x2 for crit) for EVERY round of combat not including extra attacks of opportunity because of high DEX. The GWF would be 1-8(x2 for crit). On top of that, the rogue in PvE is constantly in combat advantage if played right. Why would the GWF ever out dps if the basic numbers already start them at less potential dps, according to the D&D rules.
1d4 per dagger and 1d10 for great sword if you want to get technical, and in 4E Great sword is the worst of the Great weapon types.
But really its the fact that people do more single target damage than a GWF can do aoe damage... Also you stated that you roll stab something in the back for CA then roll to next. Great mechanic,we have a crappy sprint, it cant dodge anything we just take it in the chin. Also GWF hits 5 mobs for tiny damage basically 1/5 of a trash mobs hp, for the first mob only, every mob after that takes exponentially less damage. so it looks like this 100/50/25/13/7.... im also rounding up. sure the TR hits only 1 mob at a time but when its say 2000 each hit kills 1 mob 5 hits = 5 dead mobs
GWF 5 hits in a perfect world is one dead mob one half dead mob one 1/4 dead mob and so on... add in the fact that the hits will usually not hit the exact same way every time so first mob takes 100 the first hit then 7 the next then 50 the third so instead of 5 dead mobs in 5 hits you have 5 annoyed mobs in 5 hits that still beat on the cleric who is pulling instant aggro.
0
Options
maggotholeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I always play rogue classes, but I also love alts and my main issue with the GWF isn't the damage output, but that the second at-will ability you get is so utterly lame that there is no incentive to level with the class in my eyes.
I'd like to see them get a damage bump and get that three charge aoe at will reworked to something a little faster and meaningful. Halving the time it takes to charge the ability would be a step in the right direction.
This is why gwf is pretty bad atmo, the damage dropoff from hitting multiple targets is far far too large.
The more I play my GWF, the more I think this is 100% the problem. If a GWF could nuke down large groups of mobs they would be taken on every dungeon there is. As it is, it takes too long to be useful versus a CW. It's ludicrous that a CW is even able to give a GWF a run for their money. CW and GWF are supposed to have synergy, not compete with each other. It's absolutely insane game design.
I honest to god feel like some of the paths within the one available paragon path for each class should have been their own paragon paths entirely. A control wizard should be good at control. Not good at control and nuking entire groups better than the AoE nuke class.
Is anyone really surprised though? Cryptic always makes their control classes the best tanks and the best damage dealers all in one. I'm zero percent surprised that the best grouping in a Crypitc game are two buffers, two control/damage classes, and one single-target burn class. GF and GWF are not needed when control is the best tanking you can get.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Comments
dev's idea of balance i guess
TR is bugged somehow in GS, even with full T2 gear you wont be higher then a GF with full T1
Ya gearscore needs some fixing. I put on a full set of pvp gear on my GF with green and blues on the other side and no augments and according to my gs I was ready to run T2.
Posts like this are despicably pathetic. You're either a child or a mentally challenged adult. Write and speak like a human being and communicate your thoughts intelligently and perhaps people will pay attention. Continue to post drivel and you will be ignored
The problem Klipsta is that many MANY players have offered up numerous ways to fix classes like GWF and instead of people listening they prefer to spout "know your role" then in the same breath shout LFM for epic dungeon TR CW or DC only.... so the role of GWF is ... umm ... what exactly? trash dps? nope cant do that low dps + mob hit cap = broken. boss battle? nope little mobility with Shift other 3 used classes. CC? nope... tank? don't need just go out with 2 dc 1 cw 2 tr .... or 2 dc 2 cw 1 tr ... or some variant of this.
There are numerous threads regarding how to fix the classes ranging from change to an actual dodge mechanic, change the Tab mechanic so its not about getting beat on its for smacking other things... make them less squishy. TR for example just evades like crazy... and thats going Offensive based (your crazy to do anything else) uncap the mob hit. Get rid of the decreasing damage from hitting more than one mob and GWF Tab ability. I wont even begin to address the GF mechanics as i dont know them very much but i do know and understand GWF ones... at this point in time the only reason people go with GWF in the group is because A. there is absolutely NOTHING else wanting a group and they can **** near short man it... or B. they are friends and want to help the person out. Bashing people about getting a clue just because they want / need to vent their frustrations on having seen a kickass class in beta or heard about it, reading about in on the wiki or on the website and then playing it and they have nothing more than a janitor with a wet mop is more than a little disheartening.
Ohh and if you want useful information look what the difference in Gear score a GWF has to have vs any of the 3 non fighter classes to do the same level content, look at how many potions they chug, btw mine drinks almost 10x my CW or TR. If you would like to read more as what players are suggesting i would direct you to a member named Trickshaw on the forums. Enjoy the reading
Even tho I'm the OP of this thread, this guy is hitting the points I'm trying to make DEAD on. Thank you judicas for describing to these kids the imbalance among classes and how GWFs have it the worse!
This particular post I highlighted above is the biggest frustration. Not only is the GWF's puny damage a problem itself, as the class is a **** damage-dealer but doesn't even have the capabilities to do it efficiently, it's ridiculous seeing rogues do 2x or more the damage GWFs do in a dungeon, when GWFs should be FIRST on the damage done list. Hell, even CWs out damage us, if they chose to be offensive based. Why should GWFs be first on damage done? Judicas nailed it! 95% of dungeons are just huge AoE fests. So, how does a TR do more damage, SINGLE TARGET, than a GWF who is suppose to be this big AoE destroyer? You're going to tell me a TR doing damage to 1 target should do more damage than a GWF doing damage to 5-6 targets? That is just ridiculous! They never should have given GWFs the -60% damage nerf.. It was perfectly fine the way it was until they completely broke the class. Both our encounters and at-wills hit less than any other class... Why does a 2h wielder hit so weak per hit?
Next to damage, the next big issue surrounding GWFs is their worthless excuse of a dodge mechanic. Sprint? Really? It doesn't even give us any dodge factor, meaning we waste 10x more time setting it up and recovering, so we lose more dps than any other class. Quite pathetic. This one is even super easy to fix! just give us that charge encounter we have and replace it as our dodge mechanic, and actually add a dodge mechanic to it like every other ****ing class has.
My next issue is towards their dailies... Yes, slam is awesome, Probably 1 of the best daily in the game, however, why do we not have a good single-target daily?...We're restricted to only having 1 good daily while the other 3-4 are completely useless. Both TRs and CWs have an amazing single target daily (speaking purely damage wise), that both 1 shot people in pvp, and chunk bosses. What does our strongest single target daily do? in or around 10k. That's pathetic... Hell, even slam, an AoE daily, does more damage to a single target after the full usage.
Klipsta you want real suggestions? Bam, there it is, described why the GWF's current state sucks, and easy as hell fixes to make the class viable regarding it's 2 biggest issues (and daily issue since that 1 personally pisses me off).
Obv you dont know your class. Crescendo fantastic single Target daily. I main a 10.5k gwf. Do fine in pvp and usually 2nd dungeon dps to a CW.
Are you a ****ing idiot? Blind? Just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>? Or maybe all of the above? I clearly "stated speaking purely damage wise" Crescendo is very nice for pvp, to stun lock, however, its next to useless for pure damage (a.k.a. PVE). It does about the same damage as IBS. We're the only damage dealing class that doesn't have a real single target nuke. Btw, 2nd in dungeon behind CW?... no TR?.. you obviously are playing with complete <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Learn what you're talking about before you post your complete bull **** on here please.
Level 2 Leadership - Martial Training - 4 hours - Reward: 80 leadership exp
Now why in the world would you do martial training, when you can do Guard Duty twice in the same amount of time, get 2 extra silver and 300 exp? And this isn't even comparing extremes - any time a rare Leadership task appears, the time vs. reward ratio is TERRIBLE. The only thing rare about it is how many people are dumb enough to do them.
Normally I don't back players when they're griping about balance, because all they're usually asking for is their character to be improved. But if they can't balance simple, obvious things like this that can be compared side-by-side, I expect that they'd be completely lost trying to balance classes with various skills, stats, abilities, purposes, etc. They haven't got a chance.
Clearly the people who made this game either have no understanding of the concept of 'balance,' or they're REALLY bad at math. Judging by how often my kits with 75% success rate fail, I'm thinking it's the latter.
If you are specing for single target you are wrong. If you expect to compete with rogues in DPS... you better roll a rogue. You are a tanky AoE DPS. Your primary roll is to kill lots of MOBs quickly... and at this they excel.
However CW have a lot more tricks and can do more damage... at the cost of 2/3 the HP and a fraction of your armor.
I actually have no problem with the whole "each additional target takes slightly less damage" idea, because it realistically reflects the blade slowing down as it cuts through multiple foes. However, the initial damage to that first foe needs to be 3 times higher at a minimum. You shouldn't have to swing your sword 6 times to take out trash mobs.
No one on here has said once they're trying to do single target damage cihuacoatl. Fact is though, a rogue doing single target damage SHOULD NOT! be out-damaging a GWF who is doing AoE damage 95% of the dungeon time. That just doesn't make sense.
Makes no sense that you get punished for aoe'ing at this point. Distributed damage, is like the clerics -40% self healing your getting nerfed for doing your job... great idea! -.-
This is why gwf is pretty bad atmo, the damage dropoff from hitting multiple targets is far far too large.
Completed all content waiting for more.
And class balances.... trololollol.
I think the class IS broken completely. Also to those that try and argue against it saying its balanced. It doesnt seem that way to me considering all the discussions I have seen in game and on the forums around it. Also my experience in the game has been they are the worst class currently. And you are only hurting the cause as well because i would wager for every 10 complaints about the class, it only takes one moron saying "it works fine" to counter all the complaints. Just think about that for a second before you post. Maybe you are the exception to the rule... Maybe you just run with bad people and can out DPS... I know I play a GF and the last dungeon I ran I came in 2nd on DPS behind a rogue but guess what, that was more skill then the class. Sure I have good opportunity for DPS, but I have to do it properly and will some skill and timing. Does that mean the class is fine? I would argue that if it takes someone with skill to play well, but a rogue can have NO skill and play well... Isnt that broken?
The class should do as intended:
GF: Primary Tank, secondary, damage. S
Current GF: Sucky tanks, OK damage.... = BROKEN!
GWF: Damage Dealer Primary
Current GWF: Bench warmer... = BROKEN!
DC: Healer Primary, DD/tank secondary
Current: Healer/DD/Tank... Working as intended (except remove stacking... thats OP)
TR: Damage Primary
Current: UBER DAMAGE... Arguably broken, call it a wash though so working as intended...
CW: CC primary, DD second.
Current CC/DD...working as intended...
So what is broken? GWF damage and GF threat! Fix it!
already done a TR waiting to start going after T1.
Mostly I like to go around doing things solo to get to end game,
occasional skirmish here and there. And at end game enjoy raids with others.
It's stated that you should be able to solo it with a companion.
Mostly I could take down the bosses smoothly on first try,
but when I hit 40+ things got downhill fast.
Well geared and fitted, some of the bosses utilize stealth a lot
to pot up, time my timers and raise my companion.
Last two maps was insanely hard, near rage quit a couple of times,
but I would not give up, I will prevail, I must be doing something wrong.
Now Im making a Cleric, just hit 40+
My tank companion dies extremely fast, does not do enough damage,
all though max trained for a free one, enchants and gear.
Making a full healer and now I hit a brickwall, can prolly not solo any
fort coming boss. So progression trough solo game part is prolly busted,
and have to group up, all though stated you should be able solo.
So Im beginning to see and agree with everyone in this thread, serious unbalanced in all aspects.
I have done a few skirmishes and Im well gear and powerfull already as a healer,
and Im an aggro magnet for sure. While keeping everyone up, had to kite
because other once bizzy off-tanking minions.
So please devs take a serious look on these guys details
Yeah, the effort involved in getting ok numbers on a GWF is insanely higher than trying to get exceptionally high numbers on a TR. As long as you don't screw up your TR rotation you are ignored or invulnerable while applying constant insanely high damage. You can achieve that without breaking a sweat, just know when to hit Lurkers Assault and Impossible to Catch and you just outdid the next person on the damage chart by at least double.
Impossible to Catch is what Unstoppable wishes it was.
Are you people really that dense? Rogue has no stun ability, no root ability, nothing to keep you in place. When you see a rogue in full black, why the fk would you stand still? It doesn't even last long, just move away.
The skill is so god **** useless against good players and even more useless in pve because 80% of the time, the mobs are on the clerics.
For those complaining about the dps of a GWF vs. a Rogue. I have a few questions.
Most of the complaints and observations I've seen on GWF are incomplete, because they appear generic and uninformative to the devs other "than my class is broken because I can't kills things like a TR". Were you toe-to-toe? behind? flanked? Is there even a dmg bonus in relation to position for a GWF? Which companion were you using? bonuses applied? skills tested? Spec tested? If this has all been answered in another post I apologize.
I play a Rogue(56 currently) and a GWF(46 currently) and I almost always have combat advantage in every group or encounter playing the TR. I assumed I got the dps bonus because I am always positioned behind, flanked or stealthed when attacking, with pet attacking same target, and I meet the requirement as stated in the wiki (Combat advantage - When attacking an enemy, if there is an ally attacking the same foe from the opposite direction, both players involved will have Combat Advantage). Most GWF's I see stand toe-to-toe with multiple mobs, while I am constantly rolling, attacking targets from behind, trying to stay out of the boss or enemy AOE circles, and attacking from flank positions, with the exception of peeling mobs of the cleric.
Also, after referencing D&D rules, it seems we are talking about 2d4 for dual wielded weapons (TR) and a 1d8 two-handed weapon (GWF) loadouts. Every hit by a TR is a 2d4 (2 weapons ) which is 2-8 dmg (x2 for crit) for EVERY round of combat not including extra attacks of opportunity because of high DEX. The GWF would be 1-8(x2 for crit). On top of that, the rogue in PvE is constantly in combat advantage if played right. Why would the GWF ever out dps if the basic numbers already start them at less potential dps, according to the D&D rules.
I know the complaints are mostly end game, which I am not yet playing, but without the numbers for analysis, we can't help them and they can't help us.
If the complaint is damage, then it would seem fit to slightly increase the wielded weapon's statistics for GWF(if necessary), not alter the mechanic of the whole class, and create more imbalances to be fixed.
Most of us GWFs (atleast I do), are also always in combat advantage. Personally me, I try to always be opposite of the rogue in my group to make sure the 2 of us are always receiving CA. But that has nothing to do with the damage observations.
The big issue with regards of comparing a TR and a GWF, is yes, a TR SHOULD out dps a GWF on single-target fights, however, being level 40ish, you must have done a few dungeons by now. How many single target fights do you see? 99% of dungeons are AoE-fests. Now since you like to do math, tell me, how does it make sense that a TR over-all does more dps, and we're talking 2x or more the dps of a GWF? A player attacking 1 target at a time, compared to a player constantly attacking 4-6 targets at a time. If you wanna do math, and bring in all these DnD facts and scenarios in, a GWF SHOULD be doing 3-4x if not more damage than a rogue over-all in a dungeon, for the mere fact he's doing constant AoE damage.
I'm worried they might nerf Sprint, because it's so OP. I guess the reason this has remained a secret for so long is that there is no scoreboard for "Most Leetest Loot Picker-Upper" when running a dungeon. If there was, I would be on top every time.
Uh, this isn't the game being imbalanced. It's you focusing entirely on healing when there's no one to heal in solo play. They said the game is soloable, and they are right. A cleric can definitely solo. Not if you make him the way you did though. That makes no sense.
1d4 per dagger and 1d10 for great sword if you want to get technical, and in 4E Great sword is the worst of the Great weapon types.
But really its the fact that people do more single target damage than a GWF can do aoe damage... Also you stated that you roll stab something in the back for CA then roll to next. Great mechanic,we have a crappy sprint, it cant dodge anything we just take it in the chin. Also GWF hits 5 mobs for tiny damage basically 1/5 of a trash mobs hp, for the first mob only, every mob after that takes exponentially less damage. so it looks like this 100/50/25/13/7.... im also rounding up. sure the TR hits only 1 mob at a time but when its say 2000 each hit kills 1 mob 5 hits = 5 dead mobs
GWF 5 hits in a perfect world is one dead mob one half dead mob one 1/4 dead mob and so on... add in the fact that the hits will usually not hit the exact same way every time so first mob takes 100 the first hit then 7 the next then 50 the third so instead of 5 dead mobs in 5 hits you have 5 annoyed mobs in 5 hits that still beat on the cleric who is pulling instant aggro.
I'd like to see them get a damage bump and get that three charge aoe at will reworked to something a little faster and meaningful. Halving the time it takes to charge the ability would be a step in the right direction.
The more I play my GWF, the more I think this is 100% the problem. If a GWF could nuke down large groups of mobs they would be taken on every dungeon there is. As it is, it takes too long to be useful versus a CW. It's ludicrous that a CW is even able to give a GWF a run for their money. CW and GWF are supposed to have synergy, not compete with each other. It's absolutely insane game design.
I honest to god feel like some of the paths within the one available paragon path for each class should have been their own paragon paths entirely. A control wizard should be good at control. Not good at control and nuking entire groups better than the AoE nuke class.
Is anyone really surprised though? Cryptic always makes their control classes the best tanks and the best damage dealers all in one. I'm zero percent surprised that the best grouping in a Crypitc game are two buffers, two control/damage classes, and one single-target burn class. GF and GWF are not needed when control is the best tanking you can get.