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Fix the GWF/TR !!!!!
vargoth77
Member Posts: 6 Arc User
Here's the real truth of this matter:
The GWF should do the MOST damage in the game per hit (encounter and at wills); the very idea of the class is to sacrifice everything for damage (all out strength, all out weapon size, w/e is more destructive/damaging is what defines the class). In other words, they should be at the top of the damage meter with ease YET what we see is they are near the bottom. How could this very simple class been messed up so badly?
Rogues: should do the least damage in the game ESPECIALLY when compared to a GWF. Rogues are trying to cause damage with glorified knives...which aren't even long enough to be able to penetrate through the hides of some of the monsters in DnD let alone do any meaningful damage. I disagree with the OP about that rogues should do alot of damage; the only reason he would have to say this is because if they didn't do good damage then they would be useless in groups however the alternative is even worse; to save rogues from obsolescence they have made them godly, dynamically abandoned any realism and doomed the GWF to be obsolete instead...how does this make any sense?? Even with the GWF extra aoe damage, Rogues are still BY FAR the highest damage dealers in the game makes the game laughable and ridiculous with what should be the weakest class in the game walking around as kings (esp. in pvp). Just look at pen and paper DnD: rogues had the fewest attacks, lowest to-hit bonuses, least damaging weapons, and the primary stats of the class never increased damage. Their usefulness in groups came from utility (disarming traps, stealth work, subterfuge, and supplemental damage). Their damage was rarely meaningful and ONLY if they got to apply their sneak attack bonuses which was very conditional and rightfully so. And even with sneak attack, they always fell short of the high damage fighters, ESPECIALLY all out strength great weapon types. And this says nothing about rogue survivability which is also all wrong in this game: rogues had a tiny amount of hit points and dropped almost as quickly as being looked at during team fights. This was balanced by higher reflex saves vs. aoe and traps in addition to their utility such as strategic positioning and sneakiness. Yet in this game we see rogues with fairly high hit point pools and general all round good survivability when just running recklessly into the fray; what could be more dumb than this??
This is all really common sense. Just try to stay true to DnD (and reality) and the balancing will be just fine. All GWF really needs (and needs badly) is a damage buff across the board; nothing should hit harder than them (encounters) and their at wills should pump out the highest dps in the game not to mention their aoe damage should be WAY higher than it currently is. Rogues need a big damage nerf which could be done several ways. I would suggest lowering their damage to sub-meaningful unless they have combat advantage, are stealthed, or are behind their target; this would simulate sneak attack damage which, at its best, should never surpass GWF damage. As is, a rogue can go toe to toe with a GWF and just flat out dps him down without even using stealth; the idea of that is just insanely ridiculous. A GWF should crush a rogue 1 v 1 for a joke. The only way a rogue should have a chance vs. a GWF 1 v 1 is if the rogues has a vast gear superiority, the GWF is already at 1/2 health and/or is partially afk. In otherwords, a rogue should NEVER be able to 1 v 1 a GWF. The very idea of a GWF is a slayer of rogues by the dozens; a GWF should laugh at the idea of fighting even two or 3 rogues; they are trying to beat him at his own game after all!! The stupidity of the current state of the game here can be well summarized by a joke I heard in game: "A rogue walks into a bar. There was no counter." There is a counter; its the GWF. The devs needs to inject a little realism and consistency so we can take this game more seriously and therefore better enjoy and recommend it.
Of course, there are lots of other problems with these 2 classes, such as GWF having no ranged attack while the rogue can throw daggers (in DnD, the fighter would be much more affective at doing this as well) and the fact that a GWF must sacrifice his best encounters if he wants to be able to slow or stun his target enough to damage it with his at wills while the target is trying to run therefore forcing gimp set-ups further exacerbating his low damage problem or facing the alternative of making it impossible to run down a kitting target which he can't kill anyway because his damage is so weak that he'll die before the wizard in cloth armor does....meanwhile, the rogue can slot his best encounters and still chase down kiters while keeping his full damage potential. Oh and then there is the rogue teleport ability which enables him to get up to ledges which he should never have but if it made sense for anyone to have it then it would be the GWF who is already hopelessly at the mercy of kiters...I'll stop here but BELIEVE ME I have more to say.
The GWF should do the MOST damage in the game per hit (encounter and at wills); the very idea of the class is to sacrifice everything for damage (all out strength, all out weapon size, w/e is more destructive/damaging is what defines the class). In other words, they should be at the top of the damage meter with ease YET what we see is they are near the bottom. How could this very simple class been messed up so badly?
Rogues: should do the least damage in the game ESPECIALLY when compared to a GWF. Rogues are trying to cause damage with glorified knives...which aren't even long enough to be able to penetrate through the hides of some of the monsters in DnD let alone do any meaningful damage. I disagree with the OP about that rogues should do alot of damage; the only reason he would have to say this is because if they didn't do good damage then they would be useless in groups however the alternative is even worse; to save rogues from obsolescence they have made them godly, dynamically abandoned any realism and doomed the GWF to be obsolete instead...how does this make any sense?? Even with the GWF extra aoe damage, Rogues are still BY FAR the highest damage dealers in the game makes the game laughable and ridiculous with what should be the weakest class in the game walking around as kings (esp. in pvp). Just look at pen and paper DnD: rogues had the fewest attacks, lowest to-hit bonuses, least damaging weapons, and the primary stats of the class never increased damage. Their usefulness in groups came from utility (disarming traps, stealth work, subterfuge, and supplemental damage). Their damage was rarely meaningful and ONLY if they got to apply their sneak attack bonuses which was very conditional and rightfully so. And even with sneak attack, they always fell short of the high damage fighters, ESPECIALLY all out strength great weapon types. And this says nothing about rogue survivability which is also all wrong in this game: rogues had a tiny amount of hit points and dropped almost as quickly as being looked at during team fights. This was balanced by higher reflex saves vs. aoe and traps in addition to their utility such as strategic positioning and sneakiness. Yet in this game we see rogues with fairly high hit point pools and general all round good survivability when just running recklessly into the fray; what could be more dumb than this??
This is all really common sense. Just try to stay true to DnD (and reality) and the balancing will be just fine. All GWF really needs (and needs badly) is a damage buff across the board; nothing should hit harder than them (encounters) and their at wills should pump out the highest dps in the game not to mention their aoe damage should be WAY higher than it currently is. Rogues need a big damage nerf which could be done several ways. I would suggest lowering their damage to sub-meaningful unless they have combat advantage, are stealthed, or are behind their target; this would simulate sneak attack damage which, at its best, should never surpass GWF damage. As is, a rogue can go toe to toe with a GWF and just flat out dps him down without even using stealth; the idea of that is just insanely ridiculous. A GWF should crush a rogue 1 v 1 for a joke. The only way a rogue should have a chance vs. a GWF 1 v 1 is if the rogues has a vast gear superiority, the GWF is already at 1/2 health and/or is partially afk. In otherwords, a rogue should NEVER be able to 1 v 1 a GWF. The very idea of a GWF is a slayer of rogues by the dozens; a GWF should laugh at the idea of fighting even two or 3 rogues; they are trying to beat him at his own game after all!! The stupidity of the current state of the game here can be well summarized by a joke I heard in game: "A rogue walks into a bar. There was no counter." There is a counter; its the GWF. The devs needs to inject a little realism and consistency so we can take this game more seriously and therefore better enjoy and recommend it.
Of course, there are lots of other problems with these 2 classes, such as GWF having no ranged attack while the rogue can throw daggers (in DnD, the fighter would be much more affective at doing this as well) and the fact that a GWF must sacrifice his best encounters if he wants to be able to slow or stun his target enough to damage it with his at wills while the target is trying to run therefore forcing gimp set-ups further exacerbating his low damage problem or facing the alternative of making it impossible to run down a kitting target which he can't kill anyway because his damage is so weak that he'll die before the wizard in cloth armor does....meanwhile, the rogue can slot his best encounters and still chase down kiters while keeping his full damage potential. Oh and then there is the rogue teleport ability which enables him to get up to ledges which he should never have but if it made sense for anyone to have it then it would be the GWF who is already hopelessly at the mercy of kiters...I'll stop here but BELIEVE ME I have more to say.
Post edited by vargoth77 on
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Comments
I've also been thinking about the very same thing lately, that it would be best to just give us a significant amount of damage boost when in stealth or when dealing combat advantage. But when not in stealth, we won't be able to hit as hard. Just so that the roles of the TR and GWF do not intertwine too much. The TR is completely taking over the role of the GWF as it is the better striker. Apparently there is absolutely no room for in-between roles for PVE. desp Rogues have more utility than damage, in my opinion. Because frankly, there's nothing much tricky about trickster rogues at this point in the game. I hate to imagine that our class will remain as glass beat sticks forever.
That would be great if GWF actually did the most AoE damage.
What's worse is the fact that though Rogues disarm traps, you ever notice that even when they do, they'll still go off and injure other party members? Fact is, everyone should just be a Rogue. It's obvious it's the Dev's "chosen" class and the GOD-player class....
GWF is so gear dependent and requires a good player to control.
I for one always come in 1st or 2nd on the dmg chart.
For example in every dungeon 90% of the time I will have unstoppable on every time and my slam takes about 8 secs to refill every time. Just gotta know what stats and gears to focus on.
People always seem to want the full set when the 2x piece from each set gives better stats for example but that's not always true. Sometimes a full set is better for example the Swash set for Rogue.
I agree that the dynamics of PVE need to be adjusted. At this time however, it should be fixed by a buff not just a nerf. The great adjustment on rogue is actually in aggro in my opinion. the issue is that the clerics get all the aggro so a rogue has no reason not to go crazy on every boss as much as he wants. If the aggro system in the game was finely tuned, the consequences for pulling aggro would change the dps output of TR. this would favor GWF as they are more heavily armored.
Second, this isnt DND, and depending on your edition Rogues could hit pretty kitten hard and the hardest hitters have always been spellcasters, not fighters. Also, my rogue in pen and paper had a good bit of tricks to get him out of trouble in fights. And TR can get a bonus to damage in stealth, its just not the build that most people play because most people play executioner and derp derp the same powers.
OP, it seems to me like you are not happy with GWF so you may want to consider a reroll. Most adjustments for the next couple months are going to focus on game suitability and closing exploits. I see them adding a new class before they rebalance the old ones or the pve dungeon experience. The truth is, for the most part, the class system is working. People are finishing dungeons, and the economy is at a decent rate. if you want great burst and survive-ability, roll GF. they have insane burst, if you disagree and you play one, try looking up a burst build. Either way, rage posts that call for another classes head are just immature and block any real progress ln the issues you want resolved.
Actually, that is pretty much what tanks are for. Sadly in NW as things stand they don't generate enough extra threat to keep mobs attention.
For pugs yeh they have an issue cause its hard to hold threat correctly. Go with a nice grp and everything is fine and settled... As for GWF i have a friend that does almost the same dmg as a rogue and he can one shoot you. Its all about build-chain-position. If the party knows where to position to max out the dps its all going smoothly. For pugs rogues are good cause its just a chaos...
Game needs fixes (like cleric's stacking circles or other stacking OP spells) and yes ROGUES will always be op IN EVERY MMO cause its their fundamental existence and notion that is overpowered by nature. PvP in NW i have to say that IT SUCKS BIG time. Even the maps are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Seriously, you start with your mount in a high spot and u fall off... with your mount... trying to go to the point that is in front of u.... ? ? Is that smart map design? And about how OP a class can be in pvp, its until you see a good grp that knows how to play. You can fight fire with fire anyway... Game needs many changes especially in the exploits-bug section. GWF are not the major issue in it.
GWF > Defender Role, with Striker secondary
This game follows D&D 4e, so they really should've given a small explanation of those roles so people could stop complaining.
Also, GWF = highest AoE damage in the game.
You might be running with really bad GWF or I'm running with good ones, then... normally GWFs I run with do around 8ish mil damage in Spider, Pirate...
Haven't seen any class come close to that yet in AoE...a rogue surely could surpass that if all mobs were single targets with lots and lots of health.
Right now they attack like the sword is made of plastic.
Is to have the GF shield work as a frontal aoe block. So those behind him in a certain radius incoming damage goes to the GF shield when blocking.
I dont think rogues are that overpowered, they only seem to because the other classes do not come up to par with them. In that case buffs are required rather than nerfs. I agree that regular at will attacks of the GWF should be well higher than the at will powers of rogues.
As far as pvp. Diminishing returns to need to apply for same type of attacks. CW stuns and roots should have diminishing returns on each other and rogues dazes should have diminishing returns on each other. GWF knockdowns diminishing returns with each other, and GF stuns diminishing returns on each other. Only having these diminishing returns effective in pvp only.
GWF have good mobility as is, they just require more damage output. As that is the main focus of this class.
GF for some odd reason take more damage than any other class when you think they shouldnt. Soloing with a GF seems to take up much more potions than GWF. And that seems to stem from the fact they take oddly alot of damage than you would figure they shouldnt even when blocking regularly, and remain in combat with monsters longer because of thier poor damage output.
CW are more than fine. They have absolute control over opponents they face, especially if its 1 on 1. In addition to them being ranged and less likely to be hit and thier 3 shifting teleporting ability. As I mentioned before they only need diminishing returns applied to same type of control spells and have this only apply to pvp.
Rogues too are fine. Sure they hit hard. But so do CW against them. Rogues do not have much means of methods of getting out of CC effects unlike GWF and GF and CW attacks are difficult to dodge at times depending on which one is used against them.
I cannot speak about the Cleric, for that is the only class I have yet to play extensively.
Gear can make the difference for some of these classes. But that only covers the underlying problem. The fundamental mechanics of each of the classes. Everyone can wear gear, but everyone isnt a rogue, or a GWF, or a GF, or a CW or a cleric. Rogues and Control Wizards seem to be tuned well. its the other classes that are lacking in obvious ways.
T2 is lots of Champions with lots of health, even the trash mobs have too much health for a GWF and because of this increase in health from <T1 to T2, GWF is proportionally weaker because our attacks do pretty much the same damage in any setting. (low damage)
That said, a good CW (recovery spec) will do more AoE damage without even trying.
GF and DC can also do more AoE damage but most DC's lose DPS to kiting/Astral Shield and most GF's think they should stack defense and be a tank.
It's not even that GWF doesn't do enough damage, they don't, but they don't do enough relevant damage. Killing tons of trash mobs during a boss fight (for example) is less efficient than burning the boss and utilizing a good CW. If you aren't using 2 DC's then 2 CW's would give you better CC and better AoE DPS than a GWF. It's an issue of playstyle. You will have GWF's chart very high if they fight the adds during the bosses. There is nothing wrong with this if your group wants to play this way, but this is a slower and less efficient way to run dungeons. If that GWF goes and single targets the boss instead, he will fall far behind the TR but at least he is providing a service (-def, more damage to boss) to the group.
For the most part 1 good CW can control every dungeon, leaving the big mobs to kill. GWF doesn't do that well and that's why 2 TR's is so good. Once they fix the fact that 2 TR's don't get to stack their bleeds (only one TR's stacks do damage) TR will only be better. My TR's GS is only 8700 and I have solo killed bosses in T2 in under 20s. I have seen better geared ones do the same bosses in 10s.
So I'll say this, if you've never played with a DPS cleric who is good, then yeah, it's crazy. A good CW should challenge a TR in most dungeons and a GF will challenge a TR in every dungeon. If you've never had a TR kill a T2 boss in <20s by themselves then you're missing out on what a good TR can do. If you don't have these points of reference (and how those people played their classes) then it's hard or unrealistic to make comparisons to what a GWF can't do.
I'm assuming you weren't using Executioner, I see this a lot and when I show TR's what it can do you can almost see the facepalm. If you can manage your stealth and Lurkers you can pretty much run 1 DPS encounter because all of your damage comes from auto attacks (which hit for 4-6k easily) and bleeds (20k crit stacks lol)
I wanted to give your post a thumbs up, but alas the forums don't have such a feature (at least none that I can find). So instead I'll say that I agree with you whole-heartedly on the role of tanks. I can't speak too much as to the threat generation of the GF; I've only gotten mine up to level 20 and so far I haven't had a lot of issues keeping threat, despite the fact that I duo with a cleric. I expect that may change as we progress in levels since healers tend to be aggro magnets in many games.
Since rogues in w.o.w are pretty much squishy and useless, i guess they decided to take it out on this game and make rogues OPed
I totally agree and that is what the OP said, just in a different way!
TR's are so far over the top in this game it's laughable and sadly it's not even close to the D&D ruleset.... it's just not!
The game needs a definite re-balancing or the other classes are useless.....
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