Barring aside the game itself you claim rogues are much weaker in DnD but you forget to mention that rogues are masters of skills. You know,those things alot of people that play fighters seem to never notice? Any game I've played at the table shows rogues to be much more feared than a fighter because using skills he can catch you off guard making it easier to hit,deal more damage with sneak attacks and putting points into feint works miracles.
Now to this game. Where are the skills? Aside from using a few seconds of stealth a rogue can't sneak up on someone because you can see and hear them a mile away. Take that away and what's left but to make high damage? GWF in all reality is just another tank swinging around a meat cleaver instead of a shield. Rogues specialize in pinpoint,lethal attacks and in this game nearly all of them are quite easy to avoid. If you want to cut rogue damage then they would need something to compensate for their terrible survivability
I have played every class at this point and the TR begins and ends as the highest damage with average survivability. It isn't even a glass cannon...TR is just a cannon, period. They are so ez to play, their burst moves also debuff, slow, or daze and they don't have to give up anything for it; not even being confined to melee! This is the total opposite of DnD, fighters are both kings of melee and ranged; they can swtich from sword to bow seamlessly but non of that has transfered over to this game which is just the same old Rogue worshiping bull <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> we've seen since World of Warcraft first came out. Neverwinter isn't the first game to get this wrong, its just that the degree to which they overpowered the rogue is so much higher than all the rest. But I didn't expect that, I expected to finally see some realism in this game, and I don't think I'm alone in this, since the pen and paper DnD was so great that way. But no, in an effort to give rogues some purpose they have made the skinny leather pants wearing, butter-knife wielding wussies do more damage than not only the epitome of strength and power (GWF) but more than EVERYONE. How about making rogues useful for reasons like, I don't know, things that rogues are good at!! Because that has never been damage in DnD! Its always been about trap detection, stealth, subterfuge, perception, PICKING LOCKS, climbing, w/e! And it wouldn't take much to gear dungeons to make rogues useful. It could be as simple as making traps more meaningful and doing more damage which is how they are in DnD too. As is traps are just a minor inconvenience if that. PLEASE STOP TRYING TO MAKE ROGUES USEFUL BY THE STUPID IDEA THAT THEY CAN HANG WITH FIGHTERS IN TERMS OF DPS.
Hang with the fighters in dps? Really? There's several ways I can disprove you, in reality and in terms of balance for an MMO. First, reality. I'm not convinced that you ever even played D&D. At all. Because I can guarantee you a rogue will outdamage a fighter. In any edition. 1st through 4e. One step gives him 10d6 damage. One step. That's an average of 30 damage per hit. Hell, take away my weapon damage and Strength bonus (Yes, rogues can use Strength as well Mr. Epitome of Strength GWF), and I'll STILL outdamage you in every way. It's not a question of "Can we hang with fighters dps?" it's a question of "Can YOU hang with Rogue dps?". But, apparently, like most people who play a warrior/fighter type in any game, you think you should have the most armor, hps, and damage of all the classes or the game is somehow broken. You do NOT get the highest everything. You want Rogue dps? Remove that heavy armor and drop some hps. Then we'll talk about balance. Until then, you and every other GWF can sit there and cry. Strength and a big 2-hander does not equal top dps. Even in reality using physics, 2 weapons at 2 1/2 ft long will kill far faster than one 6 foot blade. Especially in close quarters where you can't even swing properly. Why do you think the Romans and Greeks used short swords? Because it was superior to large weapons upclose. But, keep living in your delusional world that Strength is superior. It is not. In any fight, speed and tactics are king.
Your reply is just as rage filled an inaccurate as the OP, balancing needs to be done.
Inaccurate? Disprove me then. Go ahead. I'll wait. All the rules for 1st through 4e can be found on google. I've got all night. But the quote about rage filled, yeah, I agree. I'm pissed that every GWF that comes on here wants the highest everything. You don't get it all. What I would do is put the Rogue damage at about 15% higher than the GWF on single targets, give them middle ground hps, moderate mitigations. Then raise the GWF damage to the previously stated but doing 15% more AoE damage than anyone else, keep the mitigations as they are, and give them middle ground hps. That way the Rogue has a role and the GWF has a role without stepping on anyones toes. But this whole GWF needs to do more than a Rogue is getting silly. Your an AoE Striker/Guardian hybrid class. It even says it on the main page. You are not a PURE striker. Again, this is the community of warriors currently, they think they should get it all. And they shouldn't. I think the main problem is too many players want a PvE game balanced for PvP reasons. It's either that or egos are being bruised that someone is actually outperforming them. Take your pick.
Its not the length of your shiny metal...its how you use it. Imo the TR has to do dmg. I cba disarming traps and single targetting one of the 50 ads in a room tbh as a primary goal. While GF has both control, aoe and single target capabilities. Gf > tr.
Basically no. Atleast personally I cba playing if they nerf rogues yet again. For the past decade of gaming there has been one single instance repeating itself: nerf the rogue.
Well my TR has the same HP as my GWF, so drop TR HP by about 6000 or so and then you'd be somewhat accurate.
Or you could bring up the GFs hp by 6k and nerf a bit of his CC one combo kill mechanics to compensate...how does that work for ya? L2p tbh. Also, i dont think you pvp nor pve much, since you should know that a 14k tr hp pool = dead tr 80% of the time.
lol you guys all ***** about GWF being weak yet i have seen GWFs get top in meters before and second on meters if you dont succumb to the terrible itemization on most of the gear in this game and forgore some things you can pump out massive dmg on GWFs just all the classes can top meters ive seen it on my cleric
You. A good gf will **** in dmg done, will kick mobs into position, will take aggro off the healer, will debuff bosses, will aoe taunt and even tank for that matter... L2p ppl. Fix cleric aggro and make tanks tanky in pve. As a def specced GW you are dead weight. As a dps gw you are an asset.
Yes. Atm best party = 3 cw and 2 cleric, or 1 tr, 2 cw, 2 cleric.
Rogues should have a permanent damage debuff for around -50% if they are not attacking from stealth.
It is the best and easiest possible fix. Oh and something should be done about their hp. 3k less than a tank is a huge no-go.
Peace.
Oh waaait, i understand now! You dont want GWs buffed, you are the butthurt type and only want rogues nerfed.... Typical tbh. So dont buff or fix gws, nerf tr and my gw becomes fine? Gtfo tbh...
I thought this was an actual thread but i just read through it and all ive seen is butthurting and nerf requests form what are most likely baddies not being able to fit their roles. Im outta this swamp. Gl hf and best of luck with your nerfs propaganda! That always ended up well in mmos.
P.s. play a tr or hold your piece tbh. Also go pve more. See how 20k hp goes for you, then think about 14k hp, then come back here and be a man not a whimp and admit it.
I don t Understand!! My TR lvl33 can't face a GWF on her own nor a CW, yes she can do a large amount of damage if crit hit is landed and I would have to constantly focus on you to hit you with my base at will to continue to hurt you, and that hardly ever happens because you can block!!
I think its learning what skills stack with each other or compliment each other, most GWF i have faced make it almost impossible for me to get close and often push me right in the path of there teams CW and C and GF, and then all my dps/stealth/dodge becomes useless.
No, no, nerf TR and buff GWF. The way it is going to be done you'll see it for yourself soon.
L2P! A good gw has 100% more group utility than a tr will ever have. Its even better than CW if protecting the cleric for example! Argueing that nerfing another class helps you...you rlly dont see it? Its pathetic! You dont see me whining when a GW hands it to me for the whole instance until we reach certain bosses! And its a GUARDIAN FIGHTER...id understand greatswords to QQ but guardians?
Its not the class m8.... Its you! Any arguement from a pve pow where a class judges herself by comparison to another class and not its own mechanics is just bull to me. Its just frustration stemming from stuff that dont even belong in games.
replayed in many post for GWF needs reworked ..gwf have biggest sword in class still lowest dmg and wtf logic tr do highest dmg with smallest knifes :mad: my 52 lvl gwf with mass crit dnt even do half hp of tr and range class can run like hell ........i dnt recommend this game to any of my friend :mad::mad:
The GWF should do the MOST damage in the game per hit (encounter and at wills); the very idea of the class is to sacrifice everything for damage (all out strength, all out weapon size, w/e is more destructive/damaging is what defines the class). In other words, they should be at the top of the damage meter with ease YET what we see is they are near the bottom. How could this very simple class been messed up so badly?
Rogues: should do the least damage in the game ESPECIALLY when compared to a GWF. Rogues are trying to cause damage with glorified knives...which aren't even long enough to be able to penetrate through the hides of some of the monsters in DnD let alone do any meaningful damage. I disagree with the OP about that rogues should do alot of damage; the only reason he would have to say this is because if they didn't do good damage then they would be useless in groups however the alternative is even worse; to save rogues from obsolescence they have made them godly, dynamically abandoned any realism and doomed the GWF to be obsolete instead...how does this make any sense?? Even with the GWF extra aoe damage, Rogues are still BY FAR the highest damage dealers in the game makes the game laughable and ridiculous with what should be the weakest class in the game walking around as kings (esp. in pvp). Just look at pen and paper DnD: rogues had the fewest attacks, lowest to-hit bonuses, least damaging weapons, and the primary stats of the class never increased damage. Their usefulness in groups came from utility (disarming traps, stealth work, subterfuge, and supplemental damage). Their damage was rarely meaningful and ONLY if they got to apply their sneak attack bonuses which was very conditional and rightfully so. And even with sneak attack, they always fell short of the high damage fighters, ESPECIALLY all out strength great weapon types. And this says nothing about rogue survivability which is also all wrong in this game: rogues had a tiny amount of hit points and dropped almost as quickly as being looked at during team fights. This was balanced by higher reflex saves vs. aoe and traps in addition to their utility such as strategic positioning and sneakiness. Yet in this game we see rogues with fairly high hit point pools and general all round good survivability when just running recklessly into the fray; what could be more dumb than this??
This is all really common sense. Just try to stay true to DnD (and reality) and the balancing will be just fine. All GWF really needs (and needs badly) is a damage buff across the board; nothing should hit harder than them (encounters) and their at wills should pump out the highest dps in the game not to mention their aoe damage should be WAY higher than it currently is. Rogues need a big damage nerf which could be done several ways. I would suggest lowering their damage to sub-meaningful unless they have combat advantage, are stealthed, or are behind their target; this would simulate sneak attack damage which, at its best, should never surpass GWF damage. As is, a rogue can go toe to toe with a GWF and just flat out dps him down without even using stealth; the idea of that is just insanely ridiculous. A GWF should crush a rogue 1 v 1 for a joke. The only way a rogue should have a chance vs. a GWF 1 v 1 is if the rogues has a vast gear superiority, the GWF is already at 1/2 health and/or is partially afk. In otherwords, a rogue should NEVER be able to 1 v 1 a GWF. The very idea of a GWF is a slayer of rogues by the dozens; a GWF should laugh at the idea of fighting even two or 3 rogues; they are trying to beat him at his own game after all!! The stupidity of the current state of the game here can be well summarized by a joke I heard in game: "A rogue walks into a bar. There was no counter." There is a counter; its the GWF. The devs needs to inject a little realism and consistency so we can take this game more seriously and therefore better enjoy and recommend it.
Of course, there are lots of other problems with these 2 classes, such as GWF having no ranged attack while the rogue can throw daggers (in DnD, the fighter would be much more affective at doing this as well) and the fact that a GWF must sacrifice his best encounters if he wants to be able to slow or stun his target enough to damage it with his at wills while the target is trying to run therefore forcing gimp set-ups further exacerbating his low damage problem or facing the alternative of making it impossible to run down a kitting target which he can't kill anyway because his damage is so weak that he'll die before the wizard in cloth armor does....meanwhile, the rogue can slot his best encounters and still chase down kiters while keeping his full damage potential. Oh and then there is the rogue teleport ability which enables him to get up to ledges which he should never have but if it made sense for anyone to have it then it would be the GWF who is already hopelessly at the mercy of kiters...I'll stop here but BELIEVE ME I have more to say.
On a serious note, I fully support OP in this.
To the best of my knowledge, Rogues are usually oriented around disorienting, disabling, incapacitating or otherwise manipulating the enemy. Their strength is supposed to lie in weakening (debuffing) the enemy so that they may exploit a weak spot to land a successful kill.
What I'm seing currently ingame is... well...
It's nothing short of blunt brainless bursting baked bollocks.
But what do I know? I'm new to the game. There's probably something I'm missing.
There's probably SOME way to get rogues off of my cleric other then timing that Divinity Nova just right.
I don't have the infamous mother-huffer of a defensive skill - Astral Shield, yet. Personally I find the concept of being restricted just to that tiny circle if I want to survive REALLY offputting, but that's for another topic.
For now, I'm trying to keep calm and learn, but I'm nearing that point where one flips their desk and starts rage-fapping.
...no? Just me? Okay...
"Pugs are like Saturday Night Live Sketches.
Most of em' are awful, some of em are decent, and a few are pretty good."
Hang with the fighters in dps? Really? There's several ways I can disprove you, in reality and in terms of balance for an MMO. First, reality. I'm not convinced that you ever even played D&D. At all. Because I can guarantee you a rogue will outdamage a fighter. In any edition. 1st through 4e. One step gives him 10d6 damage. One step. That's an average of 30 damage per hit. Hell, take away my weapon damage and Strength bonus (Yes, rogues can use Strength as well Mr. Epitome of Strength GWF), and I'll STILL outdamage you in every way. It's not a question of "Can we hang with fighters dps?" it's a question of "Can YOU hang with Rogue dps?". But, apparently, like most people who play a warrior/fighter type in any game, you think you should have the most armor, hps, and damage of all the classes or the game is somehow broken. You do NOT get the highest everything. You want Rogue dps? Remove that heavy armor and drop some hps. Then we'll talk about balance. Until then, you and every other GWF can sit there and cry. Strength and a big 2-hander does not equal top dps. Even in reality using physics, 2 weapons at 2 1/2 ft long will kill far faster than one 6 foot blade. Especially in close quarters where you can't even swing properly. Why do you think the Romans and Greeks used short swords? Because it was superior to large weapons upclose. But, keep living in your delusional world that Strength is superior. It is not. In any fight, speed and tactics are king.
Normally I ignore obvious idiotic posts but this one is just too easy and replying does do some good for those who have any confusion on the matter whatsoever. This guy quoted above incredibly says rogues would compete with fighters in damage in every DnD edition ever despite the fact that Dexterity, their prime state, has never added damage (except 4e) and in some editions didn't even add to their to-hit chance! It's GG right there for Strength being king if you are talking damage. Nevermind that fighters also had WAY higher class bonus to to-hit AND to the number of attacks they get per round not to mention more combat oriented feats, abilities, etc, etc. To even suggest that rogues, in any way whatsoever, could compare to fighters in pure combat is just simply stupidity and/or sign of deep denial and wishful thinking. And don't say "sneak attack damage" please, even if rogues could apply that damage on every attack (which they could not because it required their target being off guard) that puny amount of d6's could never compare to the fighters strength, number of attacks, and weapon superiority let alone their many damage boosting feats.
And please don't bring up physics (or reality) which you clearly have absolutely no grasp of. First off, daggers are not LOL 2.5 feet long. They are anywhere from 4 INCHES to about (and being VERY generous here) 12 INCHES long. INCHES; NOT FEET. They are little glorified butter-knives; deal with it. Once you get to over that long then you are holding a short sword which can go to about 2.5 long max. And to answer your question about why romans and greeks used short swords; BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO MAKE STEEL YOU MORON, long or great weapons would snap in half if using bronze/copper or be way too heavy if made from Iron. Also great weapons are fine in close quarters; perhaps you meant confined quarters such as when spelunking. In such a case a fighter could just pull a short sword off his belt or a dagger out of his boot and still out dps a puny rogue. Actually confined quarters would be even worse for a rogue in leather who would lose his dexterity bonus from his AC while the fighter would still be protected by plate armor. Also, Strength is speed if you know anything about fast twitch muscle.
I like how you mentioned tactics; being a great weapon can be well over 6 feet long, what kind of "tactics" does a rogue have at his disposal when in a 1 v 1 with a fighter who can decapitate or cut him literally in half in one swing from perhaps 9 feet away (weapon + arm length) while the rogue must be about 4 feet away just to, what, blunt his dagger off the fighters steel chest plate? Get real man.
In other words, every point you raised is either wrong or wtf stupid wrong.
Any game that has rogues coming close to fighter damage, ESPECIALLY any DnD based game, is either broken or trying way too hard in all the wrong ways to give rogues usefulness in groups. This could be easily done in many other ways such as the ways, I don't know, they are actually very useful to have around in pen and paper DnD, duh! The point is that one of those ways is NOT for their damage; that is the kingdom of the fighter. Deal with it. All I'm saying is that Neverwinter should attempt to come at least remotely close to this and therefore salvage some kind of consistency with reality and the game that they are mooching the fans from.
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cyd3lMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
This game is based on 4th edition D&D. In 4th edition rogues do amazing damage. As far as realism goes, this game has magic so realism is out the window lol. Rogues can step into shadows, teleport, summon a giant dagger the size of an ogre that crashes down on your head lol. Realism argument is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> seeing as this game doesn't follow the laws of our world.
But all you people saying rogues don't do dmg in D&D are completely wrong. Im playing a rogue in D&D in a campaign right now, and i'll easily outdmg anyone on a single target except maybe a ranger in some situations.
Too bad most of these whiners are just extremely terrible players. They cry about having 12k GS and being outdamaged by a rogue, but they were able to obtain 10.5k GS at level 55 as GWF. GS is different for every class. Just because your GS is 12k doesn't mean you have the best sets in the game.
Also, if you've noticed, many parties shuns GWFs because these players think they are pure damage dealers but in actuality, they are supports with great aoe damage. I keep all the good GWFs on my friends list because they make life much easier in epic instances. I find it much more satisfying and efficient to have the CW singularity and the GWF kill everything. Not every situation has a cliff you can push the mobs off of and I find that pushing mobs off cliffs is buggy sometimes and they get stuck somewhere and you end up spending more time trying to kill those mobs.
If anything, the only thing the GWF needs is for their shift to have invulnerable frames but making their stamina cost just as much as rogue dodge cost.
These people crying just want their class to be the best at everything instead of playing the role that they are suppose to play.
Rogues, by D&D tradition, should be able to dish a fair amount of damage using subterfuge and cunning (poisons, stealth, sneak attacks...). For me it should be the rogue to have debuffing powers, not the GWF.
Quoted for emphasis. This hits the nail on the head.
Im tired of all the "im not top dps even though i rolled a controll, defence/healer class" posts..
TR should ALWAYS be top in dps charts, their the only dps class. Their also extremly squishy in PvE content, the typical glasscannon.
TR basicly have no AoE skills and are only good for bosses, and aoe disarming trashmobs.
So you want to take that away aswell becouse you want to be top dog in ST on bosses aswell? yea..sounds really fair.
Theres only a handful good GWF out there, that actually tries to play ther class as a GWF and not a single target dps class, that ends up in top 2 just below the Rogue, which they should be.
When the TR gets nerfed becouse of all the whining and it will be the worst class to bring to dungeons, every scrub CW and GWF will think their fine becouse they get higher dps in the charts, and TR cant kill them in PvP.
GWF should be the best AoE class, that i agree, CW shouldnt be as good in AoE as they are now, their a controll class. Clerics shouldnt do as much AoE either.
In no situations should any other class then a Rogue be at the top in the charts, and by a good margin.
Im tired of all the "im not top dps even though i rolled a controll, defence/healer class" posts..
TR should ALWAYS be top in dps charts, their the only dps class. Their also extremly squishy in PvE content, the typical glasscannon.
TR basicly have no AoE skills and are only good for bosses, and aoe disarming trashmobs.
So you want to take that away aswell becouse you want to be top dog in ST on bosses aswell? yea..sounds really fair.
Theres only a handful good GWF out there, that actually tries to play ther class as a GWF and not a single target dps class, that ends up in top 2 just below the Rogue, which they should be.
GWF should be the best AoE class, that i agree, CW shouldnt be as good in AoE as they are now, their a controll class. Clerics shouldnt do as much AoE either.
In no situations should any other class then a Rogue be at the top in the charts, and by a good margin.
Agree completely. Ran a level 30 dungeon and knew my job as a GWF was to take out the trash. The rogue had top damage, I was second, but I also had top spot on total kills by a very large margin of 100 over the rogue. People complaining just do not understand their role in groups and are giving the class a bad name.
Comments
Now to this game. Where are the skills? Aside from using a few seconds of stealth a rogue can't sneak up on someone because you can see and hear them a mile away. Take that away and what's left but to make high damage? GWF in all reality is just another tank swinging around a meat cleaver instead of a shield. Rogues specialize in pinpoint,lethal attacks and in this game nearly all of them are quite easy to avoid. If you want to cut rogue damage then they would need something to compensate for their terrible survivability
Hang with the fighters in dps? Really? There's several ways I can disprove you, in reality and in terms of balance for an MMO. First, reality. I'm not convinced that you ever even played D&D. At all. Because I can guarantee you a rogue will outdamage a fighter. In any edition. 1st through 4e. One step gives him 10d6 damage. One step. That's an average of 30 damage per hit. Hell, take away my weapon damage and Strength bonus (Yes, rogues can use Strength as well Mr. Epitome of Strength GWF), and I'll STILL outdamage you in every way. It's not a question of "Can we hang with fighters dps?" it's a question of "Can YOU hang with Rogue dps?". But, apparently, like most people who play a warrior/fighter type in any game, you think you should have the most armor, hps, and damage of all the classes or the game is somehow broken. You do NOT get the highest everything. You want Rogue dps? Remove that heavy armor and drop some hps. Then we'll talk about balance. Until then, you and every other GWF can sit there and cry. Strength and a big 2-hander does not equal top dps. Even in reality using physics, 2 weapons at 2 1/2 ft long will kill far faster than one 6 foot blade. Especially in close quarters where you can't even swing properly. Why do you think the Romans and Greeks used short swords? Because it was superior to large weapons upclose. But, keep living in your delusional world that Strength is superior. It is not. In any fight, speed and tactics are king.
Inaccurate? Disprove me then. Go ahead. I'll wait. All the rules for 1st through 4e can be found on google. I've got all night. But the quote about rage filled, yeah, I agree. I'm pissed that every GWF that comes on here wants the highest everything. You don't get it all. What I would do is put the Rogue damage at about 15% higher than the GWF on single targets, give them middle ground hps, moderate mitigations. Then raise the GWF damage to the previously stated but doing 15% more AoE damage than anyone else, keep the mitigations as they are, and give them middle ground hps. That way the Rogue has a role and the GWF has a role without stepping on anyones toes. But this whole GWF needs to do more than a Rogue is getting silly. Your an AoE Striker/Guardian hybrid class. It even says it on the main page. You are not a PURE striker. Again, this is the community of warriors currently, they think they should get it all. And they shouldn't. I think the main problem is too many players want a PvE game balanced for PvP reasons. It's either that or egos are being bruised that someone is actually outperforming them. Take your pick.
Mine has 4.7 k less than my GWF. Is that with +hp slots? Do they have t1/t2 gear? Not a bash. I'm honestly curious.
Basically no. Atleast personally I cba playing if they nerf rogues yet again. For the past decade of gaming there has been one single instance repeating itself: nerf the rogue.
Or you could bring up the GFs hp by 6k and nerf a bit of his CC one combo kill mechanics to compensate...how does that work for ya? L2p tbh. Also, i dont think you pvp nor pve much, since you should know that a 14k tr hp pool = dead tr 80% of the time.
You. A good gf will **** in dmg done, will kick mobs into position, will take aggro off the healer, will debuff bosses, will aoe taunt and even tank for that matter... L2p ppl. Fix cleric aggro and make tanks tanky in pve. As a def specced GW you are dead weight. As a dps gw you are an asset.
Yes. Atm best party = 3 cw and 2 cleric, or 1 tr, 2 cw, 2 cleric.
I thought this was an actual thread but i just read through it and all ive seen is butthurting and nerf requests form what are most likely baddies not being able to fit their roles. Im outta this swamp. Gl hf and best of luck with your nerfs propaganda! That always ended up well in mmos.
P.s. play a tr or hold your piece tbh. Also go pve more. See how 20k hp goes for you, then think about 14k hp, then come back here and be a man not a whimp and admit it.
I think its learning what skills stack with each other or compliment each other, most GWF i have faced make it almost impossible for me to get close and often push me right in the path of there teams CW and C and GF, and then all my dps/stealth/dodge becomes useless.
L2P! A good gw has 100% more group utility than a tr will ever have. Its even better than CW if protecting the cleric for example! Argueing that nerfing another class helps you...you rlly dont see it? Its pathetic! You dont see me whining when a GW hands it to me for the whole instance until we reach certain bosses! And its a GUARDIAN FIGHTER...id understand greatswords to QQ but guardians?
Its not the class m8.... Its you! Any arguement from a pve pow where a class judges herself by comparison to another class and not its own mechanics is just bull to me. Its just frustration stemming from stuff that dont even belong in games.
You dont make a class more appealing by making another class less appealing. Your reasons and reasoning are something I cba to waste more time on.
Two thumbs and Big toes up:cool:
Cool story bro. Needs more dragons and bacon.
On a serious note, I fully support OP in this.
To the best of my knowledge, Rogues are usually oriented around disorienting, disabling, incapacitating or otherwise manipulating the enemy. Their strength is supposed to lie in weakening (debuffing) the enemy so that they may exploit a weak spot to land a successful kill.
What I'm seing currently ingame is... well...
It's nothing short of blunt brainless bursting baked bollocks.
But what do I know? I'm new to the game. There's probably something I'm missing.
There's probably SOME way to get rogues off of my cleric other then timing that Divinity Nova just right.
I don't have the infamous mother-huffer of a defensive skill - Astral Shield, yet. Personally I find the concept of being restricted just to that tiny circle if I want to survive REALLY offputting, but that's for another topic.
For now, I'm trying to keep calm and learn, but I'm nearing that point where one flips their desk and starts rage-fapping.
...no? Just me? Okay...
Most of em' are awful, some of em are decent, and a few are pretty good."
Normally I ignore obvious idiotic posts but this one is just too easy and replying does do some good for those who have any confusion on the matter whatsoever. This guy quoted above incredibly says rogues would compete with fighters in damage in every DnD edition ever despite the fact that Dexterity, their prime state, has never added damage (except 4e) and in some editions didn't even add to their to-hit chance! It's GG right there for Strength being king if you are talking damage. Nevermind that fighters also had WAY higher class bonus to to-hit AND to the number of attacks they get per round not to mention more combat oriented feats, abilities, etc, etc. To even suggest that rogues, in any way whatsoever, could compare to fighters in pure combat is just simply stupidity and/or sign of deep denial and wishful thinking. And don't say "sneak attack damage" please, even if rogues could apply that damage on every attack (which they could not because it required their target being off guard) that puny amount of d6's could never compare to the fighters strength, number of attacks, and weapon superiority let alone their many damage boosting feats.
And please don't bring up physics (or reality) which you clearly have absolutely no grasp of. First off, daggers are not LOL 2.5 feet long. They are anywhere from 4 INCHES to about (and being VERY generous here) 12 INCHES long. INCHES; NOT FEET. They are little glorified butter-knives; deal with it. Once you get to over that long then you are holding a short sword which can go to about 2.5 long max. And to answer your question about why romans and greeks used short swords; BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO MAKE STEEL YOU MORON, long or great weapons would snap in half if using bronze/copper or be way too heavy if made from Iron. Also great weapons are fine in close quarters; perhaps you meant confined quarters such as when spelunking. In such a case a fighter could just pull a short sword off his belt or a dagger out of his boot and still out dps a puny rogue. Actually confined quarters would be even worse for a rogue in leather who would lose his dexterity bonus from his AC while the fighter would still be protected by plate armor. Also, Strength is speed if you know anything about fast twitch muscle.
I like how you mentioned tactics; being a great weapon can be well over 6 feet long, what kind of "tactics" does a rogue have at his disposal when in a 1 v 1 with a fighter who can decapitate or cut him literally in half in one swing from perhaps 9 feet away (weapon + arm length) while the rogue must be about 4 feet away just to, what, blunt his dagger off the fighters steel chest plate? Get real man.
In other words, every point you raised is either wrong or wtf stupid wrong.
Any game that has rogues coming close to fighter damage, ESPECIALLY any DnD based game, is either broken or trying way too hard in all the wrong ways to give rogues usefulness in groups. This could be easily done in many other ways such as the ways, I don't know, they are actually very useful to have around in pen and paper DnD, duh! The point is that one of those ways is NOT for their damage; that is the kingdom of the fighter. Deal with it. All I'm saying is that Neverwinter should attempt to come at least remotely close to this and therefore salvage some kind of consistency with reality and the game that they are mooching the fans from.
But all you people saying rogues don't do dmg in D&D are completely wrong. Im playing a rogue in D&D in a campaign right now, and i'll easily outdmg anyone on a single target except maybe a ranger in some situations.
Also, if you've noticed, many parties shuns GWFs because these players think they are pure damage dealers but in actuality, they are supports with great aoe damage. I keep all the good GWFs on my friends list because they make life much easier in epic instances. I find it much more satisfying and efficient to have the CW singularity and the GWF kill everything. Not every situation has a cliff you can push the mobs off of and I find that pushing mobs off cliffs is buggy sometimes and they get stuck somewhere and you end up spending more time trying to kill those mobs.
If anything, the only thing the GWF needs is for their shift to have invulnerable frames but making their stamina cost just as much as rogue dodge cost.
These people crying just want their class to be the best at everything instead of playing the role that they are suppose to play.
Quoted for emphasis. This hits the nail on the head.
http://www.loremaster.org
TR should ALWAYS be top in dps charts, their the only dps class. Their also extremly squishy in PvE content, the typical glasscannon.
TR basicly have no AoE skills and are only good for bosses, and aoe disarming trashmobs.
So you want to take that away aswell becouse you want to be top dog in ST on bosses aswell? yea..sounds really fair.
Theres only a handful good GWF out there, that actually tries to play ther class as a GWF and not a single target dps class, that ends up in top 2 just below the Rogue, which they should be.
When the TR gets nerfed becouse of all the whining and it will be the worst class to bring to dungeons, every scrub CW and GWF will think their fine becouse they get higher dps in the charts, and TR cant kill them in PvP.
GWF should be the best AoE class, that i agree, CW shouldnt be as good in AoE as they are now, their a controll class. Clerics shouldnt do as much AoE either.
In no situations should any other class then a Rogue be at the top in the charts, and by a good margin.
Agree completely. Ran a level 30 dungeon and knew my job as a GWF was to take out the trash. The rogue had top damage, I was second, but I also had top spot on total kills by a very large margin of 100 over the rogue. People complaining just do not understand their role in groups and are giving the class a bad name.