Hey Extinction, when creating a character as half-orc for this build, would you chose 18 strength + 18 dex, or max out strength at 20 leaving 15 in dex.
First of all, let me start by saying that I enjoy the playstyle of a GWF. Regardless, I am one of those that see the class as lacking. We need to forget the argument of exceptional players who can make any class seem OP and look more at the general picture.
I have been running a lot of T2 on my CW for a while now. After getting comfortable with the class, the dungeons, the rotations, I can tell you that the only time your average GWF is in the top 2 dps, is when the party has 2 tank built GFs, and 2 DCs. All else being equal, I do not recall the last time I saw a GWF surpass the dps of an AOE/CC slotted CW, and nowhere NEAR 20% behind a decent TR. Hec I see TRs in their PvP gear sometimes going over 30%+ more dps than a T2 GWF/CW.
Second, the dps meter is really nothing to measure the performance of a class. Instead ask yourself this, what does a GWF bring to a party that a CW can't do? A CW does more dps (from my experience), and a ton of control/cc/knockbacks along with it, all with the luxury of staying at range and still continue dps. I even see dps spec GFs that do more than a GWF on the meter while providing situational tanking and more survivability.
My issue with GWF is not where they are ranked on the DPS meter. My issue with the class is that it doesn't provide a utility in a party that justifies its lower dps. Will I refuse to group with a GWF? Never. Would a competent GWF be better than an incompetent TR? definitely. The content of the game so far is very forgiving. As the game mechanics get deeper, and content get harder, they need to create a niche for GWF and even GFs, who in general aren't always needed either.
I am not doubting your experience. Maybe in your runs you are in the top 2 or 3 of the meter, but that only tells us that maybe you know how to play your class well and have reached its peak, while the others you are running with do not know how to play their classes well yet.
OK. This post worries me some. I just dinged lv. 40 last night, queued for a dungeon, and was immediately kicked out of group before taking my first swing. Reason given why I was chosen to receive the boot over other classes present? Simply because I was a GWF - and the group preferred trying to pull another healer, or any other class save mine really.
Nice waste of a 20 minute wait.
Now, reading a little your thoughts, and then what I'm seeing in other threads, coupled with this latest experience of being "kicked" for what I consider no good ******* reason, I'm beginning to worry about the future playing this class. I'm not a flavor of the month type bloke, and I've always loved running with dps warrior types in all MMO's played ever since I first rolled a warrior in Vanilla WoW (he remains my "main" even today) but I tend to get attached to my first toon rolled in a game, and I also love being able to successfully pug dungeon romps without fear of being kicked due to class choice.
Am I running an uphill battle just out of the gate? Should I not be worried as classes are fine tuned and adjusted in future patches? I want to play the class I can most get into, but not to the detriment of end game experience ...
All comments and feedback on the matter are appreciated.
OK. This post worries me some. I just dinged lv. 40 last night, queued for a dungeon, and was immediately kicked out of group before taking my first swing. Reason given why I was chosen to receive the boot over other classes present? Simply because I was a GWF - and the group preferred trying to pull another healer, or any other class save mine really.
Nice waste of a 20 minute wait.
Now, reading a little your thoughts, and then what I'm seeing in other threads, coupled with this latest experience of being "kicked" for what I consider no good ******* reason, I'm beginning to worry about the future playing this class. I'm not a flavor of the month type bloke, and I've always loved running with dps warrior types in all MMO's played ever since I first rolled a warrior in Vanilla WoW (he remains my "main" even today) but I tend to get attached to my first toon rolled in a game, and I also love being able to successfully pug dungeon romps without fear of being kicked due to class choice.
Am I running an uphill battle just out of the gate? Should I not be worried as classes are fine tuned and adjusted in future patches? I want to play the class I can most get into, but not to the detriment of end game experience ...
All comments and feedback on the matter are appreciated.
Hey Rama, you ask some very good questions regarding the perception of the GWF class and some of the challenges. This thread is a build thread which is focused more on discussion on the class mechanics, feats, powers etc.
I know for sure changes are coming to the class, though I have no idea what they are yet. As more information becomes available this thread will continue to discuss how they will effect the build and the GWF class.
Hey Extinction, when creating a character as half-orc for this build, would you chose 18 strength + 18 dex, or max out strength at 20 leaving 15 in dex.
Thanks
In my opinion the 18 str 18 dex is much better then the max str version.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Extinction - GWF
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flatgonzoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I just had to post and say thank you. I'm also playing a half-orc GWF, currently level 37. I was using weapon master's strike and wicked strike already, but had no idea you could chain them like that. I also have the bleed feat and a few others to make things fun. After discovering that alternating attack trick, I've been having insane fun. Screen is full of numbers. Thank you sir!
Done CN today, i think wicked strike cant hit as many targets as master weapon strike or whatever its called.
Was a pretty bad experience, Wiz can outdamage gwf easy there as we suffer so much damage loss if theirs too many adds on screen. Oh and were effectively useless at last boss, my role consisted of being dedicated rezzer, debuffing boss and using our terrible knockback (roar) to push caster mobs towards wiz.
All in all i wouldnt recommend it, its also a long and boring dungeon.
GWF lvl 60.
Completed all content waiting for more.
And class balances.... trololollol.
First of all, let me start by saying that I enjoy the playstyle of a GWF. Regardless, I am one of those that see the class as lacking. We need to forget the argument of exceptional players who can make any class seem OP and look more at the general picture.
I have been running a lot of T2 on my CW for a while now. After getting comfortable with the class, the dungeons, the rotations, I can tell you that the only time your average GWF is in the top 2 dps, is when the party has 2 tank built GFs, and 2 DCs. All else being equal, I do not recall the last time I saw a GWF surpass the dps of an AOE/CC slotted CW, and nowhere NEAR 20% behind a decent TR. Hec I see TRs in their PvP gear sometimes going over 30%+ more dps than a T2 GWF/CW.
Second, the dps meter is really nothing to measure the performance of a class. Instead ask yourself this, what does a GWF bring to a party that a CW can't do? A CW does more dps (from my experience), and a ton of control/cc/knockbacks along with it, all with the luxury of staying at range and still continue dps. I even see dps spec GFs that do more than a GWF on the meter while providing situational tanking and more survivability.
My issue with GWF is not where they are ranked on the DPS meter. My issue with the class is that it doesn't provide a utility in a party that justifies its lower dps. Will I refuse to group with a GWF? Never. Would a competent GWF be better than an incompetent TR? definitely. The content of the game so far is very forgiving. As the game mechanics get deeper, and content get harder, they need to create a niche for GWF and even GFs, who in general aren't always needed either.
I am not doubting your experience. Maybe in your runs you are in the top 2 or 3 of the meter, but that only tells us that maybe you know how to play your class well and have reached its peak, while the others you are running with do not know how to play their classes well yet.
I agree with some points, disagree with others. Every other GWF i've seen on mindflayer has been millions behind me, even ones with better gear, and I believe a lot of it comes down to build and skill selection. I cringe when I see a GWF in full AoW in a Cragmire using avalanche of steel and whirlwind, or fighting packs with sure-strike.. While those skills worked at level 20 or so, they are comparably terrible at 60 (and cause vastly lowered damage). My point with that isn't to brag, but to state that a lot of poor GWF showing is down to poor build and skill selection.
The average GWF indeed will probably not look too deeply into the tree to try figure out what combos well together, or how certain skills are augmented by the paragon feats etc, and go for whats flashy/feels strong, and as you said those ones will never come top 2.
This is a screen from a Pirate King earlier today, http://puu.sh/32mPO. The rogue in 2nd was around 10.8k, the rogue in 3rd 11k. At that run i was 10.2k (changed stat gear back to teneb gear, i'm not a believer in using GS as a way of comparing strength since GS and combat effectiveness are two different things, but lets not complicate this discussion with that). The 2nd rogue knew what they were doing, I simply outdamaged them because I was dishing out AoE like crazy. The 3rd rogue wasn't rotating that well, no disrespect to Cat, they're a friend, but that also does favor your statement that skills > gear, and my belief that gearscore isn't an absolute. Bad rotation alone doesn't offset over 3million though.
I don't believe a full T2 GWF who knows what they're doing will ever be outdamaged by over 30% by a TR, even equally geared, not even 20%. That is situational on some runs, but most of the time the difference shouldn't be that large between TR/GWF on equal footing (skill/gearwise)
GWF admittedly doesn't bring too much to a party control-wise CW can't grant AoE combat advantage on demand though, or a 60-90% AoE armor reduction (if using plaguefire, which you should). Nor can CW hit a button and suddenly take half damage and serve as a backup tank (or primary, like this spec caters to), and nor do I believe a CW puts out as much sustained AoE damage. CW comes close to a GWFs AoE output, but if the mobs are tight enough together for a 3+ hit with wicked strike, CW is playing second fiddle. Control wise however, CW are kings. GWF can't lockdown (without animation cancelling anyway) a pack like a CW can, but that's why they're Control Wizards. I view GWF as a sort of juggernaut class, able to put damage out in situations when nobody else could.
I feel a lot of the core issue with GF and GWF will be addressed when threat/aggro actually works as intended. The first-in style classes go in, hit a mob once and then a cleric heals and boom.. Tank? what tank.. Initiator? why initiate when you're not going to hold aggro.. Whacking that hulk for 100k? it'd rather chase the cleric who's not been able to do anything yet. If astral is changed to not stack, and people accept there's more strategy than simply tossing mobs off cliffs GF and GWF too will gain much more popularity as they'll actually be able to do what they were intended for (jumping into the fray and either keeping everything off the squishies, or destroying the enemies squishies before they can let off shots)
While I do feel confident in my knowledge of the class, I still feel I have a lot to work out with it, they definitely need to do something to bring it into a more competetive stature, preferably more on the utility than damage side, since I feel their damage is very competetive. It hurts to say this but what you sacrifice in damage output (probably around 10-20% it's made worth it by the control a CW would grant. Right now i'd rather have a CW than a GWF if I was looking at it from the outside, but being the GWF and taking the first-person view, I feel people need to give GWFs more of a chance, because there are good ones out there who are an asset to any dungeon run
tl;dr - To all the up-coming GWFs, don't be disheartened by what you read. It's true GWF atm is in a bit of a limbo, but there has to be positive changes to the class eventually, Cryptic can't (i hope) ignore the masses forever. It's a hard road to take, but playing what you enjoy is what makes these games fun. The class is rewarding once you begin to understand how to use it effectively.
Great post Xero, and I agree very much with your observations. I've said from day 1 that GWF does its intended job well. It's actually a class with a lot of versatility and ways to use different skills both offensively and defensively. Some content design does not lend itself to the strength of the class ill be the first to admit; but the class itself is rewarding to play. And the instigator is exactly how I love to play this class! Wherever the most chaos is found on a run that's exactly where I want to be; in there getting bloody swinging away with my monstrous weapon haha
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Extinction - GWF
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rama07Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 7Arc User
Hey Rama, you ask some very good questions regarding the perception of the GWF class and some of the challenges. This thread is a build thread which is focused more on discussion on the class mechanics, feats, powers etc.
I know for sure changes are coming to the class, though I have no idea what they are yet. As more information becomes available this thread will continue to discuss how they will effect the build and the GWF class.
Thanks for the response. I guess for me, the two are not mutually exclusive (class mechanics and the perception / performance of said class). What leads one to explore new builds, like the one you've graciously posted herein, is the hope of improved game play performance leading to a solid place in groups. I suppose the answer I was hoping for was "this build will go a long ways in resolving the class' perceived performance issues and resolving its perception on a whole and viability in a group".
I'll stick with it knowing we are indeed in open beta and changes are on their way.
I appreciate the guide you've put together and will definitely give it a go.
Well, i just started at server now, with a GWF, and im kinda lost of everything, witch power and attributes i should take in a lvl, witch ones i can use for lvling, i just know that i have to get all the powers maximized on lvl 60, but i dunno witch ones i pick for lvl, i have to notice that i'm have dificult to stay alive without any potion, and im just spending too much money on these, is that normal? What i should fallow?
Thx for attention
What's below is just my way of playing a spec like this, told ya mine was a bit different, but fundamentally the same =p
I've been reading up on Trickshaws posts a bit and even with the crazy amount of defence shred this spec can put out, I still think the ArP thing is on to something.
I changed a couple things around (namely on cat) and got 1k ArP, and i'm noticing a damage increase between 11 and 13% on average, running stacked ArP on cat (double arp roll 60s, Piercing Warriors) with ArP sockets for maximum ArP gain, and at rank25 that should give me around 1500 ArP from the cat alone, + whatever % of stats i get in the defence socket) If I changed power/crit/reco rings for arp/crit/reco i'd be looking at reaching that 2000 mark whilst still keeping Tenebrous in all offensive slots, allowing the basis behind why I use this kind of spec to still apply.
Deep Gash seems to proc tenebrous (http://puu.sh/33zKE.jpg) as does plague fire. I primarily use Deep Gash for those Tenebrous procs. Ideally i'd like to get that 25% reco -> ArP just after Deep Gash but doing that would sacrifice Vengeance+Group Assault, which I don't think is worth it given that stacking the cat up and a couple jewelry changes is enough to hit 2k ArP.
With 3 Tenebrous, I average 3 procs/crit and 1/non crit.
With 4 (wep has one)+Plague fire, I average 6 procs/non hit, 9/crit
Each procs currently for 480. That's per target, so factor in that vs 5 targets (our cap on wicked, should be uncapped though imo) and the majority of damage comes from base hits + procs, with plague serving to catalyze more procs + debuff, and deep gash just there for procs (though 118 on 5 targets is ticking for 600/s which isn't to be ignored either)
I'd say getting a good level of ArP at a non-sacrificial level to crit and a good power baseline should be priority (if you have a cat, you can get the bulk of it from this + jewelry) and then getting your crit chance to 32.5% (so with Vicious Advantage, Rogue buff and Weapon Master you're at 50%). Then it's down to power+recovery. Thankfully both of these stats come in decent quantity on a lot of GWF gear (i have 1300 reco and over 5k power without socketing for it just from gear)
I'm personally using a Piercing Conquerors Helmet too, it gives 270 power/crit and 236 ArP, which i feel is a better stat weight than most epics offer. It gives me a couple hundred less GS than an epic would, but GS is the biggest crock of **** ever anyway.
My spec doesn't take as big an advantage of the capstone as others would, but I feel like everything running up to it is too good to drop, and Group Assault is what makes wicked strike so solid. Likewise Student of the Sword can't be dropped because that imo is the defining passive of a GWF.
How do you kill that which gets tankier the more you hit it?
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motomi96Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited May 2013
Hello all other GWF.
Ive done reading all the GWF Guides.
And especially the Instigator Specc is my Favorite.
But i have 1 big Problem.
Is it still right that i should gor for 3k Recovery > 2,2k ArmPen > Crit > Power ?
Than i think its really hard to Aquire this Values in Instigator Specc and iv have a Blue Stone Comp.
The 25% Recovery to ArmPen in Destroyer Tree should be given all
Otherwise ... ive done some Excel **** and build me a Gear Calculator and it is really hard to leave some Offene Slots Free for Tenebrous. It looks like we have to Skip every Epic Necklace,Rings and Belt and use the Blue ones with High Recovery Roll to get that 3000k Cap. After i socket to that Cap, i have the Remaining Runeslots for pushing ArmPen to 2,2k.
Calculations where done with Berserker MH+OH 2x Vigilant Warlord 2x Avatar of War.
Ive done reading all the GWF Guides.
And especially the Instigator Specc is my Favorite.
But i have 1 big Problem.
Is it still right that i should gor for 3k Recovery > 2,2k ArmPen > Crit > Power ?
Than i think its really hard to Aquire this Values in Instigator Specc and iv have a Blue Stone Comp.
The 25% Recovery to ArmPen in Destroyer Tree should be given all
Otherwise ... ive done some Excel **** and build me a Gear Calculator and it is really hard to leave some Offene Slots Free for Tenebrous. It looks like we have to Skip every Epic Necklace,Rings and Belt and use the Blue ones with High Recovery Roll to get that 3000k Cap. After i socket to that Cap, i have the Remaining Runeslots for pushing ArmPen to 2,2k.
Calculations where done with Berserker MH+OH 2x Vigilant Warlord 2x Avatar of War.
Honestly im worried about using tenebrous, it feels like it should be nerfed and i hope it is. IMO just focusing on getting crit/arpen/recovery up to DR and then pump power.
GWF lvl 60.
Completed all content waiting for more.
And class balances.... trololollol.
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motomi96Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited May 2013
thats the problem. i cant pump power or armor pen after reaching 3k recovery and 2,3k arpen.
all enchants are armor pen - so there is no room for a)tenebrous b)more power c)more crit
the itemization in this game is horrible if i have to use 4 blues over 4 epics as a gwf.
i need dmg .......i need crit .........this thing i realize in lvl 45 and i build my gwf with mass crit all offense slots fulled with crit still got only 27 to 29% crit chance and with buff it goes upto 35% still if i got critical on dmg stckup with encounters i can kill that tr with 1 daily and two encounter if got crit but still need many improvements in class .......and got 2nd 3rd on many dungeons a
thats the problem. i cant pump power or armor pen after reaching 3k recovery and 2,3k arpen.
all enchants are armor pen - so there is no room for a)tenebrous b)more power c)more crit
the itemization in this game is horrible if i have to use 4 blues over 4 epics as a gwf.
Honestly i wouldnt worry about having recovery that high, to me it seems less effective than other stats when most of your damage comes from at wills and AP gain is allready very quick.
PS the only blue i use is belts.
Just keep in mind at the end of the day we are still a class that needs love.
GWF lvl 60.
Completed all content waiting for more.
And class balances.... trololollol.
Well I took my GWF using this build up to level 53 now. Still doing really well in quest line content, even did an abortive (the PuG just didn't have what it takes for the final boss) run through the wolf den dungeon before I outleveled it. Using pure greens I outdamaged and out killed everyone. I did deviate at one point from this build when I took the Punishing Charge skill (totally useless as is) over Battle Fury. It did slow down a bit at 40 and then picked back up again feel-wise. Only bump at had at all running the content solo was the rhimehound (I think that's it's name) who would often get me stun locked between it's elite spawns and it's AoE spike thing (So I called in another GWF to give me a hand).
So far I'd say this is a great build and I don't see that changing before lvl 60.
just respecced to this build and will be testing it out in some t1 dungeons today. Looking at all the positive comments, i don't think I'll be disappointed, but getting used to using weapon master's strike and wicked strike will probably take a while :P
just respecced to this build and will be testing it out in some t1 dungeons today. Looking at all the positive comments, i don't think I'll be disappointed, but getting used to using weapon master's strike and wicked strike will probably take a while :P
Yes, even though I've been using it since wms was available to me, I still have trouble remembering to tap... hold... tap, hold... which is interrupted only by popping encounters as needed, unstoppable, or slam. Unstoppable changes the pace a bit as well...
Yeah i just tried it in epic gray wolf and I was 3rd on paingiver, which is a great improvement from always being 5th... Either way, we actually couldn't beat the boss and tbh it seems like he's been given a massive damage buff- he is doing like 20,000 damage with one of his really fast moves that you can't even dodge, which is beyond me, but whatever :P Either way, props to extinction, this build definitely works for massacring mobs and the amount of numbers flying around on the screen is pretty **** crazy :P
I've been super busy with work after vacation but starting to get caught back up here. Playing this past weekend was a bust as I kept freezing at load in so missed my couple days to rip it up in game sadly.
At this time I have not personally tested stacking ar pen up to the 2200 range but I see some very convincing evidence that this could be very viable to our dps output. It is my plan to tackle this ar pen project to see the results, which I am excited to test out. My results will be added to the OP if in fact this is the way to go. As the core of this build is at-will and encounter aoe damage complimented with slam daily; any dps increases gained through ar pen will, in my opinion, really make this build shine.
This build still uses slam almost as frequently as destroyer does, but is not mostly just about spamming slam as often as possible - as group assault buffed wicked strikes, combat advantage damage increases and bleeds are all major damage outputs for the core of this build. If ar pen does prove to be as strong as suggested I see this benefiting instigator far more then destroyer as the build has more layers of damage increases then destroyer does as well as sustaining more raw damage from at wills and encounters which would really use the additional dps generated from ar pen.
Also, its awesome reading all the different tweaks to the shell of the build. It's wicked seeing all the different ways elements have been tweaked to fit different play styles and situations.
Thanks to everyone that has invested time in trying different things and adding to the conversation.
Any considerations to changing this build or gear setup given the Armor Pen flare up on this forum?
Hey coin, I want to personally test before I change things up, but that being said a lot of people have put in time to test already and the results seem to be speaking for themselves.
Due to real life commitments I have not had the time to invest as of yet but I will be testing and reporting back. Kudos to everyone that has spent the resources and time to dig into the math as its not my strong point haha! What can I say I am sales executive by trade and basic math is about all that is required in my trade
I'm still against Tenebrous for PvE. For PvP it's great, put rank 3's in everything and you can 2-shot(Flourish -> IBS) like all the other cool kids. Then again I'm destroyer and Reaping Strike is OP.
Could you please post a screenshot of your powers and feats?
I'd like to see where the other points in your powers tab went to I'm really new to this game and have decided to follow your build.
Could you please post a screenshot of your powers and feats?
I'd like to see where the other points in your powers tab went to I'm really new to this game and have decided to follow your build.
If he doesn't get a chance, I'll grab a new set of pics of my GWF which followed this style of build and post them. I'm not sure if I'll get the chance tonight, but certainly tomorrow.
Comments
The red glow on enemies tells you if they're debuffed. Tap WMS, then hold down Wicked Strikes for it's three swings, then repeat.
Thanks
OK. This post worries me some. I just dinged lv. 40 last night, queued for a dungeon, and was immediately kicked out of group before taking my first swing. Reason given why I was chosen to receive the boot over other classes present? Simply because I was a GWF - and the group preferred trying to pull another healer, or any other class save mine really.
Nice waste of a 20 minute wait.
Now, reading a little your thoughts, and then what I'm seeing in other threads, coupled with this latest experience of being "kicked" for what I consider no good ******* reason, I'm beginning to worry about the future playing this class. I'm not a flavor of the month type bloke, and I've always loved running with dps warrior types in all MMO's played ever since I first rolled a warrior in Vanilla WoW (he remains my "main" even today) but I tend to get attached to my first toon rolled in a game, and I also love being able to successfully pug dungeon romps without fear of being kicked due to class choice.
Am I running an uphill battle just out of the gate? Should I not be worried as classes are fine tuned and adjusted in future patches? I want to play the class I can most get into, but not to the detriment of end game experience ...
All comments and feedback on the matter are appreciated.
Hey Rama, you ask some very good questions regarding the perception of the GWF class and some of the challenges. This thread is a build thread which is focused more on discussion on the class mechanics, feats, powers etc.
I know for sure changes are coming to the class, though I have no idea what they are yet. As more information becomes available this thread will continue to discuss how they will effect the build and the GWF class.
Extinction - GWF
In my opinion the 18 str 18 dex is much better then the max str version.
Extinction - GWF
Vicorin, Half-Orc Great Weapon Fighter
Was a pretty bad experience, Wiz can outdamage gwf easy there as we suffer so much damage loss if theirs too many adds on screen. Oh and were effectively useless at last boss, my role consisted of being dedicated rezzer, debuffing boss and using our terrible knockback (roar) to push caster mobs towards wiz.
All in all i wouldnt recommend it, its also a long and boring dungeon.
Completed all content waiting for more.
And class balances.... trololollol.
I agree with some points, disagree with others. Every other GWF i've seen on mindflayer has been millions behind me, even ones with better gear, and I believe a lot of it comes down to build and skill selection. I cringe when I see a GWF in full AoW in a Cragmire using avalanche of steel and whirlwind, or fighting packs with sure-strike.. While those skills worked at level 20 or so, they are comparably terrible at 60 (and cause vastly lowered damage). My point with that isn't to brag, but to state that a lot of poor GWF showing is down to poor build and skill selection.
The average GWF indeed will probably not look too deeply into the tree to try figure out what combos well together, or how certain skills are augmented by the paragon feats etc, and go for whats flashy/feels strong, and as you said those ones will never come top 2.
This is a screen from a Pirate King earlier today, http://puu.sh/32mPO. The rogue in 2nd was around 10.8k, the rogue in 3rd 11k. At that run i was 10.2k (changed stat gear back to teneb gear, i'm not a believer in using GS as a way of comparing strength since GS and combat effectiveness are two different things, but lets not complicate this discussion with that). The 2nd rogue knew what they were doing, I simply outdamaged them because I was dishing out AoE like crazy. The 3rd rogue wasn't rotating that well, no disrespect to Cat, they're a friend, but that also does favor your statement that skills > gear, and my belief that gearscore isn't an absolute. Bad rotation alone doesn't offset over 3million though.
I don't believe a full T2 GWF who knows what they're doing will ever be outdamaged by over 30% by a TR, even equally geared, not even 20%. That is situational on some runs, but most of the time the difference shouldn't be that large between TR/GWF on equal footing (skill/gearwise)
GWF admittedly doesn't bring too much to a party control-wise CW can't grant AoE combat advantage on demand though, or a 60-90% AoE armor reduction (if using plaguefire, which you should). Nor can CW hit a button and suddenly take half damage and serve as a backup tank (or primary, like this spec caters to), and nor do I believe a CW puts out as much sustained AoE damage. CW comes close to a GWFs AoE output, but if the mobs are tight enough together for a 3+ hit with wicked strike, CW is playing second fiddle. Control wise however, CW are kings. GWF can't lockdown (without animation cancelling anyway) a pack like a CW can, but that's why they're Control Wizards. I view GWF as a sort of juggernaut class, able to put damage out in situations when nobody else could.
I feel a lot of the core issue with GF and GWF will be addressed when threat/aggro actually works as intended. The first-in style classes go in, hit a mob once and then a cleric heals and boom.. Tank? what tank.. Initiator? why initiate when you're not going to hold aggro.. Whacking that hulk for 100k? it'd rather chase the cleric who's not been able to do anything yet. If astral is changed to not stack, and people accept there's more strategy than simply tossing mobs off cliffs GF and GWF too will gain much more popularity as they'll actually be able to do what they were intended for (jumping into the fray and either keeping everything off the squishies, or destroying the enemies squishies before they can let off shots)
While I do feel confident in my knowledge of the class, I still feel I have a lot to work out with it, they definitely need to do something to bring it into a more competetive stature, preferably more on the utility than damage side, since I feel their damage is very competetive. It hurts to say this but what you sacrifice in damage output (probably around 10-20% it's made worth it by the control a CW would grant. Right now i'd rather have a CW than a GWF if I was looking at it from the outside, but being the GWF and taking the first-person view, I feel people need to give GWFs more of a chance, because there are good ones out there who are an asset to any dungeon run
tl;dr - To all the up-coming GWFs, don't be disheartened by what you read. It's true GWF atm is in a bit of a limbo, but there has to be positive changes to the class eventually, Cryptic can't (i hope) ignore the masses forever. It's a hard road to take, but playing what you enjoy is what makes these games fun. The class is rewarding once you begin to understand how to use it effectively.
Extinction - GWF
Thanks for the response. I guess for me, the two are not mutually exclusive (class mechanics and the perception / performance of said class). What leads one to explore new builds, like the one you've graciously posted herein, is the hope of improved game play performance leading to a solid place in groups. I suppose the answer I was hoping for was "this build will go a long ways in resolving the class' perceived performance issues and resolving its perception on a whole and viability in a group".
I'll stick with it knowing we are indeed in open beta and changes are on their way.
I appreciate the guide you've put together and will definitely give it a go.
Thx for attention
I've been reading up on Trickshaws posts a bit and even with the crazy amount of defence shred this spec can put out, I still think the ArP thing is on to something.
I changed a couple things around (namely on cat) and got 1k ArP, and i'm noticing a damage increase between 11 and 13% on average, running stacked ArP on cat (double arp roll 60s, Piercing Warriors) with ArP sockets for maximum ArP gain, and at rank25 that should give me around 1500 ArP from the cat alone, + whatever % of stats i get in the defence socket) If I changed power/crit/reco rings for arp/crit/reco i'd be looking at reaching that 2000 mark whilst still keeping Tenebrous in all offensive slots, allowing the basis behind why I use this kind of spec to still apply.
Deep Gash seems to proc tenebrous (http://puu.sh/33zKE.jpg) as does plague fire. I primarily use Deep Gash for those Tenebrous procs. Ideally i'd like to get that 25% reco -> ArP just after Deep Gash but doing that would sacrifice Vengeance+Group Assault, which I don't think is worth it given that stacking the cat up and a couple jewelry changes is enough to hit 2k ArP.
With 3 Tenebrous, I average 3 procs/crit and 1/non crit.
With 4 (wep has one)+Plague fire, I average 6 procs/non hit, 9/crit
Each procs currently for 480. That's per target, so factor in that vs 5 targets (our cap on wicked, should be uncapped though imo) and the majority of damage comes from base hits + procs, with plague serving to catalyze more procs + debuff, and deep gash just there for procs (though 118 on 5 targets is ticking for 600/s which isn't to be ignored either)
I'd say getting a good level of ArP at a non-sacrificial level to crit and a good power baseline should be priority (if you have a cat, you can get the bulk of it from this + jewelry) and then getting your crit chance to 32.5% (so with Vicious Advantage, Rogue buff and Weapon Master you're at 50%). Then it's down to power+recovery. Thankfully both of these stats come in decent quantity on a lot of GWF gear (i have 1300 reco and over 5k power without socketing for it just from gear)
I'm personally using a Piercing Conquerors Helmet too, it gives 270 power/crit and 236 ArP, which i feel is a better stat weight than most epics offer. It gives me a couple hundred less GS than an epic would, but GS is the biggest crock of **** ever anyway.
My spec doesn't take as big an advantage of the capstone as others would, but I feel like everything running up to it is too good to drop, and Group Assault is what makes wicked strike so solid. Likewise Student of the Sword can't be dropped because that imo is the defining passive of a GWF.
Ive done reading all the GWF Guides.
And especially the Instigator Specc is my Favorite.
But i have 1 big Problem.
Is it still right that i should gor for 3k Recovery > 2,2k ArmPen > Crit > Power ?
Than i think its really hard to Aquire this Values in Instigator Specc and iv have a Blue Stone Comp.
The 25% Recovery to ArmPen in Destroyer Tree should be given all
Otherwise ... ive done some Excel **** and build me a Gear Calculator and it is really hard to leave some Offene Slots Free for Tenebrous. It looks like we have to Skip every Epic Necklace,Rings and Belt and use the Blue ones with High Recovery Roll to get that 3000k Cap. After i socket to that Cap, i have the Remaining Runeslots for pushing ArmPen to 2,2k.
Calculations where done with Berserker MH+OH 2x Vigilant Warlord 2x Avatar of War.
Honestly im worried about using tenebrous, it feels like it should be nerfed and i hope it is. IMO just focusing on getting crit/arpen/recovery up to DR and then pump power.
-EDIT- Ok according to this thread http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?226361-Math-on-Tenebrous-Enchantment tenebrous is not that great, id avoid it tbh since it seems to have an internal cooldown.
Completed all content waiting for more.
And class balances.... trololollol.
all enchants are armor pen - so there is no room for a)tenebrous b)more power c)more crit
the itemization in this game is horrible if i have to use 4 blues over 4 epics as a gwf.
Honestly i wouldnt worry about having recovery that high, to me it seems less effective than other stats when most of your damage comes from at wills and AP gain is allready very quick.
PS the only blue i use is belts.
Just keep in mind at the end of the day we are still a class that needs love.
Completed all content waiting for more.
And class balances.... trololollol.
So far I'd say this is a great build and I don't see that changing before lvl 60.
Yes, even though I've been using it since wms was available to me, I still have trouble remembering to tap... hold... tap, hold... which is interrupted only by popping encounters as needed, unstoppable, or slam. Unstoppable changes the pace a bit as well...
At this time I have not personally tested stacking ar pen up to the 2200 range but I see some very convincing evidence that this could be very viable to our dps output. It is my plan to tackle this ar pen project to see the results, which I am excited to test out. My results will be added to the OP if in fact this is the way to go. As the core of this build is at-will and encounter aoe damage complimented with slam daily; any dps increases gained through ar pen will, in my opinion, really make this build shine.
This build still uses slam almost as frequently as destroyer does, but is not mostly just about spamming slam as often as possible - as group assault buffed wicked strikes, combat advantage damage increases and bleeds are all major damage outputs for the core of this build. If ar pen does prove to be as strong as suggested I see this benefiting instigator far more then destroyer as the build has more layers of damage increases then destroyer does as well as sustaining more raw damage from at wills and encounters which would really use the additional dps generated from ar pen.
Also, its awesome reading all the different tweaks to the shell of the build. It's wicked seeing all the different ways elements have been tweaked to fit different play styles and situations.
Thanks to everyone that has invested time in trying different things and adding to the conversation.
Extinction - GWF
Hey coin, I want to personally test before I change things up, but that being said a lot of people have put in time to test already and the results seem to be speaking for themselves.
Due to real life commitments I have not had the time to invest as of yet but I will be testing and reporting back. Kudos to everyone that has spent the resources and time to dig into the math as its not my strong point haha! What can I say I am sales executive by trade and basic math is about all that is required in my trade
Extinction - GWF
I'd like to see where the other points in your powers tab went to
If he doesn't get a chance, I'll grab a new set of pics of my GWF which followed this style of build and post them. I'm not sure if I'll get the chance tonight, but certainly tomorrow.