Rokuthy has already proven that GFs are anything but useless. All the information is out there, it just needs to be used and not ignored. Envy is also doing fine, and he's even less tank-y in the traditional sense.
The thing is, people compare the tanking here to the tanking in WoW and WoW clones (Rift, TOR, etc.) where the tank holds aggro on all mobs. This is not how it was in EverQuest, where tanks also only focused on the big mobs and the rest was focused down or crowd controlled. Neverwinter's approach to tanking is better than WoW's because it's less boring and it makes tanks less of a bottleneck. It's also awesome that tanks here are not stuck in the "damage sponge, but hit like wet noodle" role, but can actually do competitive dps while also being able to tank bosses and elite mobs.
GFs only seem "wrong" if you compare them to WoW tanks. But this isn't WoW, so if you shift your expectations (or drop them), you will probably be happier and enjoy the class more.
This game is miles off of EQ. EQ had heal lines with macros /stand ; /cast 2; /pause 30; /sit. Without healing the tank died.
Instead I stand in the middle of town and listen to "epic runs 2 clerics, screw those crappy gf's, cleric tank FTW." shouted constantly. It's a good thing I have a wife as a cleric for my GF or I'd never have a group unless a pug didn't have a choice to accept me.
They aren't broken per se. But they need to not be replacable with someone better at tanking than they are, when that's all they are good for.
I mentioned EQ because it was not until WoW that MMOs had tanks that could just hold aggro on entire groups. They could not do this in vanilla WoW either, and cc was needed, but it eventually got simplified in the first expansion. And then more recently threat was increased by 500% so that it became completely impossible to ever lose aggro even if you auto-attacked mobs.
But anyway, OT. I just think it is mostly a matter of expectations carried over from other games. I certainly prefer the tanking style here, but that may just be me.
At this point yes, GF's are screwed. Because no offense to OP, but there seem to be 99% terrible GF's who cant seem to figure out the class yet, and instead of talking to the very "fiew" people who have, they spam on the boards about fixing the GF and screw how terrabad they are. I run a cleric, so of all people complaining about the GF class it should be me, the healer, for constantly getting beat on. Instead, I shut my mouth, learned how to cleric in "This Game", and now I am unstoppable as a healer.
I have always been on the GF's side in these GF slam posts.
Lastnight I was in the most successful group I've yet to have in this game. Which is a laugh, because we had TWO, yes..TWO, GF's, a CW, and a rogue and myself the cleric. Seeings how the one specific GF I shall not name on Mindflayer was yes, one of the absolute terrible and did absolutely nothing for the group, as well as need the cleric item off the Pirate and disband immiedately.
I am kicking myself for not writing down the name of the GF that was in my group, because he was amazing, he actually held threat. My job as a cleric in this game, is to stand right next to the GF, if you arent, then you are one of the inexperienced clerics whose also slamming the cleric class in this game saying we are broken. Of course I pulled aggro sometimes, of course I had to kite "some" mobs, and no ****, we have to avoid ground FX too. Too easy private, too easy. I made sure to circle around my tank when I was kiting, not running off like an idiot crying because I just died.
Our tactic on the T2 pirate was this. Myself(cleric), both GF's, and the CW fought next to the pillar on the left side pulling all adds, while the rogue stayed alone on the Pirate, near the middle bottom side of the boat. We focused the adds very quickly, not one death, and when I did pull aggro, it wasnt for very long, our CW grouped them all up, I stood next to the good GF and he took the aggro, we burned them down. Switched to the Pirate when adds were gone, or non-existant, yes. In this fight, the rogue did 90% of the dmg, on the Pirate any decent player can tank the boss, just avoid his rediculously easy ground fx damage. All the heals he =needed from me were my constant Divine mode FF, and Sun dot. With me not having to move around, I had Hollowed Ground and DM Astral Shield on the adds group 100% of the entire fight.
Technically, we 4 manned it, because the one ninja GF didnt do anything.
Say I wasnt healing enough to pull aggro? I had 7.2mil healing at the end of the fight, and 4.2mil damage. No, I didnt take any SS's, I wish I had so I could remember the GF's name, you'll have to take my word for it. Believe it or not I care less, .....
Bottom line, GFs...."when played correctly", are amazing in a group setting, and I for one am happy to group with the select fiew that I have met.
I promise to take SS's of my T2's tonight.
P.S. Barabus The Gray on Mindflayer...always looking for good T2 to farm with, see ya in game!
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bejita231Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited May 2013
The problem is all these WoW players come in and expect a tank and spank, this isent WoW so stop trying to copy your WoW playstyle into NW, tanks in this game need to spec damage, tanking is secondary and GF's defend and aggro through damage, the only thing i will agree with is that rogues should not be tanking and should be much squishier
The problem with the rogue is if they mess up at all they will get dropped in an instant to major boss attacks where the guardian can soak that ****e up and live.
Whats the point in being alive if you don't do anything?
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blapples86Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
So far as I can tell from reading quite a bit on guardian fighters (guides and tips as well as many whine threads) I have to agree with people siding in favor of GF's viability. The problem at present is not that they are useless but that non-GF's are viewing them as useless because they have played with bad GF's and/or read people complaining about them being unnecessary and believed it.
As another poster stated, GF's are not strictly necessary, but they bring as much or more to a group as other class. I still don't really get how a second cleric is any better than a GF. If the GF is built purely for DR/mitigation then I could see the validity in this since the 2nd cleric provides more heals and does similar if not better damage (it is kind of a shame, maybe there will be more difficult content at some point that requires a full on tanky GF to survive but it just isn't there yet). However, more and more GF's seem to be finding the good info on forums about GF's and are realizing that for current game content a more dps oriented GF will bring a lot more to most groups and will still be a viable tank.
So a rogue can tank bosses, doesn't that free you up to help gather and aoe adds? Maybe in another group you have a competent party facing a situation that they can handle the adds in but need the boss or another cc immune high hp mob's attention and aoes away from them while they kill the adds. Both of these things (as well as a number of other things with different group compositions) can be done by a GF while maintaining competitive dps.
Also, with the right build I hear (and so far have seen in the regular dungeons myself but don't know about the epic dungeons) that even with 2 clerics having a DPS specced GF in one of the 3 "DPS" slots is a viable choice because they are plenty competitive in damage and bring some extra survivability and add control to the group. I don't know 100% about this since I am only recently 60, but I can imagine from what I have seen so far and some things I have read from capped GF's further along than myself.
So, I am guessing it is only a matter of time before non-GF's that are currently hating on us realize that a good GF can bring just as much, if not more in some circumstances, to a party than a second cleric or an alternate damage dealer of about average competency. Then, it is just a matter of finding good GF's, but how is that different from any other class really?
In my mind the bottom line in this GF's suck debate is just GF's built the way some people want to play them and some non-GF's want or expect them to be played (strictly defensively) is not optimal. That by no means determines that they are bad or useless in general.
At level 60, GFs can destroy GWF and Rogues easily. (If all 3 classes wore the best gears available) 1 v 1, GFs will win against any other melee class 100% of the time if both players are same skill level.
To those people that are complaing that GF are replaceable.
How about the fact that you don't NEED to have a GWF or the fact that sometimes TRS Get replaced by a CW or GWF.
Tanks are always so stuck up their own <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> when it comes to these mmos. They expect to be needed.
I think it is perfectly fine for groups to do things without a healer or tank.
You don't see TR'S QQING about how they can be replaced by other dps. Or the GWF complaining that No-one wants to take them.
Get off your high horses and learn to make yourself be wanted. Not expecting it just because of your class.
End note: In this game I find alot of people expect their class to carry them and when suddenly they don't perform well they get angry and start blaming other things.
I personally felt it when i hit 40+ (currently 49) as a TR i didn't bother gaining any gear upgrades since 36-40 and I started feeling like i was using inflatable daggers. But I revised my tactics, tested some things, changed some gear and voila I was back in the game getting the most kills.
I even had a GF get so mad he told me i should play a proper class....Yeah a proper class like a tanky ****** that can DPS whilst taking 0 damage.
The Best PVP Guild on Dragon/Neverwinter: YoloOldSkoolSwagLoveNeverGingersLuvDupStep even if it's just one of us, you might as well just afk.
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drunkiinMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
right now 2 clerics 2 rogues 1 wizard seems to be the best setup for dungeons since the cleric circle stacks u get 50% damage reduce on all members
have 1 rogue tank boss and the clerics tank all the adds in circles with the controll wizard CCing knockbacking and doing aoe
there is possible to play with 1 of each class too but it does take some next level **** to get it done
right now 2 clerics 2 rogues 1 wizard seems to be the best setup for dungeons since the cleric circle stacks u get 50% damage reduce on all members
have 1 rogue tank boss and the clerics tank all the adds in circles with the controll wizard CCing knockbacking and doing aoe
there is possible to play with 1 of each class too here is a vid of me and my friends killing epic pirate king but it does take some next level **** to get it done http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNBha0cmW3I&list=UUKC646Mp49Xjwa2jldNlMYA&index=1
No, you need some AoE dps. When you run 2 CW you have one spamming black holes and the other one doing damage. Soon you'll realize DPS GF are the highest AoE dps spec/class around.
I mentioned EQ because it was not until WoW that MMOs had tanks that could just hold aggro on entire groups. They could not do this in vanilla WoW either, and cc was needed, but it eventually got simplified in the first expansion.
Woo... back up, WoW was _the first_ mmo where tanks had to hold aggro on entire groups? Seriously that is what you think? As a very long term mmo tester I can tell you that is just stupid. Before blizzard even dreamed up WoW I recall mmos that had that. Heck before then i recall tanks needing to hit each mob to gain threat and gather each mob, then hold it through no damage taunts while being healed. Or the days when ranged classes were required to pull mobs to groups and then the tank would have to catch them before the puller died....
WoW is just one of the more popular mmos (and the most popular western mmos), but it borows it`s mechanics from earlier games.
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blapples86Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
right now 2 clerics 2 rogues 1 wizard seems to be the best setup for dungeons since the cleric circle stacks u get 50% damage reduce on all members
To me this doesn't suggest GF's are weak or useless. I am thinking it means that the clerics circle skill needs a nerf or perhaps just to not stack (if it isn't intended for 2 cleric circles to carry a group to near effortless victory). Another argument for this nerf or inability to stack, what about any large group pvp that may come at some point during beta or after if the circle skill stays as it is? Get 4 clerics and as many other dps as will fit and have everyone on both sides hitting each other pointlessly since everyone has 100% DR. That seems like a fun time for all of a minute. Clerics obviously shouldn't be weak or useless to have more than one in a group, but the way that skill currently works (2 cleric circles= everyone has about the same DR as a GF without the circle) seems pretty broken.
Really though, even with the circles working as they do now, wouldn't a GF helping tank and aoe dpsing the adds be just as good if not better than any other choices? Especially since 2 cleric circles that add 50% DR would take GF's near (some over probably) 100% DR. Wouldn't that GF easily take the place of the wizard in that they can control the adds (taking up slack for cc and knockbacks, GF's have a couple knockbacks too tho) and can also do competitive aoe dps (especially with our spammable at-will cleave that aoes whole groups of adds bunched well). Plus if a GF is filling that role rather than the pretty good dps and mobility single target power lunging strike we could use our group buff skill I don't rememeber the name of off the top of my head. This would both increase everyone's move speed and increase everyone's daily usage with faster action points gain which would raise all other dps's dps as well as our own. And we would still have solid aoe dps with just losing lunging strike. It would actually get better I imagine since we could use any number of our aoe dailies more (my preference is Villain's Menace because it does its aoe dmg and then gives me a dmg buff helping my aoe encounters and cleave for a moderate period afterwards though if for a particular fight cc/interruption dailies would be more useful we can bring that to the table too).
Woo... back up, WoW was _the first_ mmo where tanks had to hold aggro on entire groups? Seriously that is what you think? As a very long term mmo tester I can tell you that is just stupid. Before blizzard even dreamed up WoW I recall mmos that had that.
Go ahead and give me some names of relevant pre-WoW MMOs that had tanks that held aggro on whole groups. EQ did not, UO didn't have classes, DAoC did not have that kind of tank, either. If you can't resist personal attacks like "that is just stupid", at least also include actual information.
There is no other dps class than TR, if you see an other class trying to dps it is called a hybrid build.
TR is easy mode, it is that OP you do not need up to date equips... nothing to be proud of.
Other classes can spec into damage for a reason. If you think that just because their role isn't a Striker they're not capable of damage, you're stupid. Also lol at the tank entitlement just dripping off your post...let me guess, you're a GF?
TRs easy mode and OP? Right. The class that gets melted the instant adds swarm around them is overpowered. Or maybe you think that a class whose entire specialty is damage doing damage to a single target is OP?
All I gleaned from this is that you've never played a Rogue past level 20 in PvE or PvP. Quit spreading misinformation, thanks.
I mentioned EQ because it was not until WoW that MMOs had tanks that could just hold aggro on entire groups. They could not do this in vanilla WoW either, and cc was needed, but it eventually got simplified in the first expansion. And then more recently threat was increased by 500% so that it became completely impossible to ever lose aggro even if you auto-attacked mobs.
But anyway, OT. I just think it is mostly a matter of expectations carried over from other games. I certainly prefer the tanking style here, but that may just be me.
Woah, so when i was on my DaoC paladin tanking 30 mobs in avalon city twisting chants way before WoW was released i surely was cheating.
Go ahead and give me some names of relevant pre-WoW MMOs that had tanks that held aggro on whole groups. EQ did not, UO didn't have classes, DAoC did not have that kind of tank, either. If you can't resist personal attacks like "that is just stupid", at least also include actual information.
DaoC didnt have aoe tanks? roflmao, what about paladins? what about warriors whit a healer damage shield?
Go ahead and give me some names of relevant pre-WoW MMOs that had tanks that held aggro on whole groups. EQ did not, UO didn't have classes, DAoC did not have that kind of tank, either. If you can't resist personal attacks like "that is just stupid", at least also include actual information.
How long a list would you like? And should I include imported Korean MMOs like Lineage II & RF Online? I'm not sure how they play now, but both I remember beta testing for about 6 months before release and both had multi-mob tanks. And those are off the top of my head.
I've been playing MMORPGs since Meridian 59 in 1996. So eventually they all sort of blur together and I have to look up the names and dates to tell you exactly which ones played like so. Heck there are some MMOs that tanked like EA's Above and Beyond and Sega's 10 Six that I beta tested, but are not even listed anymore...
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kalizaarMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
How long a list would you like? And should I include imported Korean MMOs like Lineage II & RF Online? I'm not sure how they play now, but both I remember beta testing for about 6 months before release and both had multi-mob tanks. And those are off the top of my head.
I've been playing MMORPGs since Meridian 59 in 1996. So eventually they all sort of blur together and I have to look up the names and dates to tell you exactly which ones played like so. Heck there are some MMOs that tanked like EA's Above and Beyond and Sega's 10 Six that I beta tested, but are not even listed anymore...
Think you meant Earth & Beyond, not Above and Beyond? If so, loved that game!
It seems it still boils down to the player, not so much the class. It also seems Cryptic's design of the classes isn't what a lot of people expect it to be. Too bad some of those demand it the way they want, and usually use OP and nerf purely random in their posts.
I've seen players all jump on the boss, hoping to get the end-kill-goodie, even DC's were getting in on the action. Nothing to do with THE class, just class
The GWF's I appreciate most clean up the mess the CW left behind and jumps in when a support class gets swarmed. A bit like the TR vs a boss or escaped mini-boss, the GWF vs mobs and thrash.
But hey, those are just 2cents worth, I'm still learning to play the game.
MMOs that had tanks that held aggro on whole groups. EQ did not
Did you forget Shadow Knights exist? SK's have always been able to AoE tank. In the early days it was more difficult and without very good heals they didn't survive. But threat wise they were more than capable of aoe tanking mass amounts of mobs. I have a lvl 90 SK that I still hop on and play from time to time and I can literally pull entire zones of LB mobs and tank them all.
It seems it still boils down to the player, not so much the class. It also seems Cryptic's design of the classes isn't what a lot of people expect it to be. Too bad some of those demand it the way they want, and usually use OP and nerf purely random in their posts.
I've seen players all jump on the boss, hoping to get the end-kill-goodie, even DC's were getting in on the action. Nothing to do with THE class, just class
The GWF's I appreciate most clean up the mess the CW left behind and jumps in when a support class gets swarmed. A bit like the TR vs a boss or escaped mini-boss, the GWF vs mobs and thrash.
But hey, those are just 2cents worth, I'm still learning to play the game.
As long as you can throw nearly every trash mob off a cliff, GF and GWF need something else going for them besides AoE damage.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
You insist on having mobs that are totally unintelligent and can be controlled with a "taunt" feature. No minds of their own, all are dumb enough to ignore the healers and casters no matter what they do. That about sum it up? You watch your little meter aggro meter and know exactly how the fight is going to go. AKK a WOW clone. That about sum it up?
How about the game force you to ignore the healers and casters in the back and make you beat on the fodder in the front? Sound fun not being aloud to think or do something smart? I don't think so.
Well, I can say I totally disagree. I actual want a bit of a challenge, I want the monsters to know who to try and kill first and to not be convinced not to. So, by all means keep letting the monsters break that magical (make them mentally handicapped) "taunt" feature from time to time. I'm all for making people think on their feet and adapt. You know like Dungeons and Dragons is supposed to be...
As has been said. I like the whole have the GF go solo the big baddie and everyone else leave it alone and take care of the other mobs. The cleric runs over there and heals the GF... look out because the baddie gets to have a brain. Make the GF play well to not need that heal. In general I'd like for mobs to have a "roll"(like in D&D) where they can break any amount of aggro to mix things up. Make you that character saving that CC for when that happens to get control of em before things get out of hand. Smart AI is fun to me.
I'm hoping the Devs keep going in this direction and not bend to this WOW mobs have no intelligence and are totally controlled by aggro and taunt stuff. Just my thoughts. I'm have a blast and really enjoying the game.
Think you meant Earth & Beyond, not Above and Beyond? If so, loved that game!
Yes, I was doing other stuff while posting and managed to mangle the name. It was released way to soon with the forums full of posts about primary game mechanics that did not work at all. I'm guessing you played after the first month and before it's close? I hear they finally had a working game a month after release...
You insist on having mobs that are totally unintelligent and can be controlled with a "taunt" feature. No minds of their own, all are dumb enough to ignore the healers and casters no matter what they do. That about sum it up? You watch your little meter aggro meter and know exactly how the fight is going to go. AKK a WOW clone. That about sum it up?
How about the game force you to ignore the healers and casters in the back and make you beat on the fodder in the front? Sound fun not being aloud to think or do something smart? I don't think so.
Well, I can say I totally disagree. I actual want a bit of a challenge, I want the monsters to know who to try and kill first and to not be convinced not to. So, by all means keep letting the monsters break that magical (make them mentally handicapped) "taunt" feature from time to time. I'm all for making people think on their feet and adapt. You know like Dungeons and Dragons is supposed to be...
As has been said. I like the whole have the GF go solo the big baddie and everyone else leave it alone and take care of the other mobs. The cleric runs over there and heals the GF... look out because the baddie gets to have a brain. Make the GF play well to not need that heal. In general I'd like for mobs to have a "roll"(like in D&D) where they can break any amount of aggro to mix things up. Make you that character saving that CC for when that happens to get control of em before things get out of hand. Smart AI is fun to me.
I'm hoping the Devs keep going in this direction and not bend to this WOW mobs have no intelligence and are totally controlled by aggro and taunt stuff. Just my thoughts. I'm have a blast and really enjoying the game.
WoW had nothing to do with taunt/aggro mechanics (except for using them and... having a meter to gauge it). Just like AoE tanks existed before WoW, taunt/aggro mechanics did as well.
Good Aggro systems typically allow the mobs to go for Highest Current Threat (HCT) on factors like: damage inflicted (go for highest), distance from target (go for closest), and Buff/CC/Debuff (If any are in active use). Then developers give players skills to manipulate threat so healers and buffers don't need to be tanks.
If we could have a shieldwall actually work like a physical one it would not be an issue. You would have to go through the big burly guys (and gals) to strike at the squishy types behind them (without being flanked). This does not yet work in MMOs, so we manipulate aggro with taunts so a tank can 'shield' the squishy types of players.
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next week it will be TR.
stop believing everything you read on the forums.
This game is miles off of EQ. EQ had heal lines with macros /stand ; /cast 2; /pause 30; /sit. Without healing the tank died.
Instead I stand in the middle of town and listen to "epic runs 2 clerics, screw those crappy gf's, cleric tank FTW." shouted constantly. It's a good thing I have a wife as a cleric for my GF or I'd never have a group unless a pug didn't have a choice to accept me.
They aren't broken per se. But they need to not be replacable with someone better at tanking than they are, when that's all they are good for.
But anyway, OT. I just think it is mostly a matter of expectations carried over from other games. I certainly prefer the tanking style here, but that may just be me.
Lol, How incorrect you are.
I have always been on the GF's side in these GF slam posts.
Lastnight I was in the most successful group I've yet to have in this game. Which is a laugh, because we had TWO, yes..TWO, GF's, a CW, and a rogue and myself the cleric. Seeings how the one specific GF I shall not name on Mindflayer was yes, one of the absolute terrible and did absolutely nothing for the group, as well as need the cleric item off the Pirate and disband immiedately.
I am kicking myself for not writing down the name of the GF that was in my group, because he was amazing, he actually held threat. My job as a cleric in this game, is to stand right next to the GF, if you arent, then you are one of the inexperienced clerics whose also slamming the cleric class in this game saying we are broken. Of course I pulled aggro sometimes, of course I had to kite "some" mobs, and no ****, we have to avoid ground FX too. Too easy private, too easy. I made sure to circle around my tank when I was kiting, not running off like an idiot crying because I just died.
Our tactic on the T2 pirate was this. Myself(cleric), both GF's, and the CW fought next to the pillar on the left side pulling all adds, while the rogue stayed alone on the Pirate, near the middle bottom side of the boat. We focused the adds very quickly, not one death, and when I did pull aggro, it wasnt for very long, our CW grouped them all up, I stood next to the good GF and he took the aggro, we burned them down. Switched to the Pirate when adds were gone, or non-existant, yes. In this fight, the rogue did 90% of the dmg, on the Pirate any decent player can tank the boss, just avoid his rediculously easy ground fx damage. All the heals he =needed from me were my constant Divine mode FF, and Sun dot. With me not having to move around, I had Hollowed Ground and DM Astral Shield on the adds group 100% of the entire fight.
Technically, we 4 manned it, because the one ninja GF didnt do anything.
Say I wasnt healing enough to pull aggro? I had 7.2mil healing at the end of the fight, and 4.2mil damage. No, I didnt take any SS's, I wish I had so I could remember the GF's name, you'll have to take my word for it. Believe it or not I care less, .....
Bottom line, GFs...."when played correctly", are amazing in a group setting, and I for one am happy to group with the select fiew that I have met.
I promise to take SS's of my T2's tonight.
P.S. Barabus The Gray on Mindflayer...always looking for good T2 to farm with, see ya in game!
Whats the point in being alive if you don't do anything?
As another poster stated, GF's are not strictly necessary, but they bring as much or more to a group as other class. I still don't really get how a second cleric is any better than a GF. If the GF is built purely for DR/mitigation then I could see the validity in this since the 2nd cleric provides more heals and does similar if not better damage (it is kind of a shame, maybe there will be more difficult content at some point that requires a full on tanky GF to survive but it just isn't there yet). However, more and more GF's seem to be finding the good info on forums about GF's and are realizing that for current game content a more dps oriented GF will bring a lot more to most groups and will still be a viable tank.
So a rogue can tank bosses, doesn't that free you up to help gather and aoe adds? Maybe in another group you have a competent party facing a situation that they can handle the adds in but need the boss or another cc immune high hp mob's attention and aoes away from them while they kill the adds. Both of these things (as well as a number of other things with different group compositions) can be done by a GF while maintaining competitive dps.
Also, with the right build I hear (and so far have seen in the regular dungeons myself but don't know about the epic dungeons) that even with 2 clerics having a DPS specced GF in one of the 3 "DPS" slots is a viable choice because they are plenty competitive in damage and bring some extra survivability and add control to the group. I don't know 100% about this since I am only recently 60, but I can imagine from what I have seen so far and some things I have read from capped GF's further along than myself.
So, I am guessing it is only a matter of time before non-GF's that are currently hating on us realize that a good GF can bring just as much, if not more in some circumstances, to a party than a second cleric or an alternate damage dealer of about average competency. Then, it is just a matter of finding good GF's, but how is that different from any other class really?
In my mind the bottom line in this GF's suck debate is just GF's built the way some people want to play them and some non-GF's want or expect them to be played (strictly defensively) is not optimal. That by no means determines that they are bad or useless in general.
How about the fact that you don't NEED to have a GWF or the fact that sometimes TRS Get replaced by a CW or GWF.
Tanks are always so stuck up their own <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> when it comes to these mmos. They expect to be needed.
I think it is perfectly fine for groups to do things without a healer or tank.
You don't see TR'S QQING about how they can be replaced by other dps. Or the GWF complaining that No-one wants to take them.
Get off your high horses and learn to make yourself be wanted. Not expecting it just because of your class.
End note: In this game I find alot of people expect their class to carry them and when suddenly they don't perform well they get angry and start blaming other things.
I personally felt it when i hit 40+ (currently 49) as a TR i didn't bother gaining any gear upgrades since 36-40 and I started feeling like i was using inflatable daggers. But I revised my tactics, tested some things, changed some gear and voila I was back in the game getting the most kills.
I even had a GF get so mad he told me i should play a proper class....Yeah a proper class like a tanky ****** that can DPS whilst taking 0 damage.
have 1 rogue tank boss and the clerics tank all the adds in circles with the controll wizard CCing knockbacking and doing aoe
there is possible to play with 1 of each class too but it does take some next level **** to get it done
And you prove my point perfectly thanks.
Woo... back up, WoW was _the first_ mmo where tanks had to hold aggro on entire groups? Seriously that is what you think? As a very long term mmo tester I can tell you that is just stupid. Before blizzard even dreamed up WoW I recall mmos that had that. Heck before then i recall tanks needing to hit each mob to gain threat and gather each mob, then hold it through no damage taunts while being healed. Or the days when ranged classes were required to pull mobs to groups and then the tank would have to catch them before the puller died....
WoW is just one of the more popular mmos (and the most popular western mmos), but it borows it`s mechanics from earlier games.
To me this doesn't suggest GF's are weak or useless. I am thinking it means that the clerics circle skill needs a nerf or perhaps just to not stack (if it isn't intended for 2 cleric circles to carry a group to near effortless victory). Another argument for this nerf or inability to stack, what about any large group pvp that may come at some point during beta or after if the circle skill stays as it is? Get 4 clerics and as many other dps as will fit and have everyone on both sides hitting each other pointlessly since everyone has 100% DR. That seems like a fun time for all of a minute. Clerics obviously shouldn't be weak or useless to have more than one in a group, but the way that skill currently works (2 cleric circles= everyone has about the same DR as a GF without the circle) seems pretty broken.
Really though, even with the circles working as they do now, wouldn't a GF helping tank and aoe dpsing the adds be just as good if not better than any other choices? Especially since 2 cleric circles that add 50% DR would take GF's near (some over probably) 100% DR. Wouldn't that GF easily take the place of the wizard in that they can control the adds (taking up slack for cc and knockbacks, GF's have a couple knockbacks too tho) and can also do competitive aoe dps (especially with our spammable at-will cleave that aoes whole groups of adds bunched well). Plus if a GF is filling that role rather than the pretty good dps and mobility single target power lunging strike we could use our group buff skill I don't rememeber the name of off the top of my head. This would both increase everyone's move speed and increase everyone's daily usage with faster action points gain which would raise all other dps's dps as well as our own. And we would still have solid aoe dps with just losing lunging strike. It would actually get better I imagine since we could use any number of our aoe dailies more (my preference is Villain's Menace because it does its aoe dmg and then gives me a dmg buff helping my aoe encounters and cleave for a moderate period afterwards though if for a particular fight cc/interruption dailies would be more useful we can bring that to the table too).
Go ahead and give me some names of relevant pre-WoW MMOs that had tanks that held aggro on whole groups. EQ did not, UO didn't have classes, DAoC did not have that kind of tank, either. If you can't resist personal attacks like "that is just stupid", at least also include actual information.
Roflmao...
Other classes can spec into damage for a reason. If you think that just because their role isn't a Striker they're not capable of damage, you're stupid. Also lol at the tank entitlement just dripping off your post...let me guess, you're a GF?
TRs easy mode and OP? Right. The class that gets melted the instant adds swarm around them is overpowered. Or maybe you think that a class whose entire specialty is damage doing damage to a single target is OP?
All I gleaned from this is that you've never played a Rogue past level 20 in PvE or PvP. Quit spreading misinformation, thanks.
Woah, so when i was on my DaoC paladin tanking 30 mobs in avalon city twisting chants way before WoW was released i surely was cheating.
DaoC didnt have aoe tanks? roflmao, what about paladins? what about warriors whit a healer damage shield?
How long a list would you like? And should I include imported Korean MMOs like Lineage II & RF Online? I'm not sure how they play now, but both I remember beta testing for about 6 months before release and both had multi-mob tanks. And those are off the top of my head.
I've been playing MMORPGs since Meridian 59 in 1996. So eventually they all sort of blur together and I have to look up the names and dates to tell you exactly which ones played like so. Heck there are some MMOs that tanked like EA's Above and Beyond and Sega's 10 Six that I beta tested, but are not even listed anymore...
Think you meant Earth & Beyond, not Above and Beyond? If so, loved that game!
It seems it still boils down to the player, not so much the class. It also seems Cryptic's design of the classes isn't what a lot of people expect it to be. Too bad some of those demand it the way they want, and usually use OP and nerf purely random in their posts.
I've seen players all jump on the boss, hoping to get the end-kill-goodie, even DC's were getting in on the action. Nothing to do with THE class, just class
The GWF's I appreciate most clean up the mess the CW left behind and jumps in when a support class gets swarmed. A bit like the TR vs a boss or escaped mini-boss, the GWF vs mobs and thrash.
But hey, those are just 2cents worth, I'm still learning to play the game.
As long as you can throw nearly every trash mob off a cliff, GF and GWF need something else going for them besides AoE damage.
You insist on having mobs that are totally unintelligent and can be controlled with a "taunt" feature. No minds of their own, all are dumb enough to ignore the healers and casters no matter what they do. That about sum it up? You watch your little meter aggro meter and know exactly how the fight is going to go. AKK a WOW clone. That about sum it up?
How about the game force you to ignore the healers and casters in the back and make you beat on the fodder in the front? Sound fun not being aloud to think or do something smart? I don't think so.
Well, I can say I totally disagree. I actual want a bit of a challenge, I want the monsters to know who to try and kill first and to not be convinced not to. So, by all means keep letting the monsters break that magical (make them mentally handicapped) "taunt" feature from time to time. I'm all for making people think on their feet and adapt. You know like Dungeons and Dragons is supposed to be...
As has been said. I like the whole have the GF go solo the big baddie and everyone else leave it alone and take care of the other mobs. The cleric runs over there and heals the GF... look out because the baddie gets to have a brain. Make the GF play well to not need that heal. In general I'd like for mobs to have a "roll"(like in D&D) where they can break any amount of aggro to mix things up. Make you that character saving that CC for when that happens to get control of em before things get out of hand. Smart AI is fun to me.
I'm hoping the Devs keep going in this direction and not bend to this WOW mobs have no intelligence and are totally controlled by aggro and taunt stuff. Just my thoughts. I'm have a blast and really enjoying the game.
Yes, I was doing other stuff while posting and managed to mangle the name. It was released way to soon with the forums full of posts about primary game mechanics that did not work at all. I'm guessing you played after the first month and before it's close? I hear they finally had a working game a month after release...
WoW had nothing to do with taunt/aggro mechanics (except for using them and... having a meter to gauge it). Just like AoE tanks existed before WoW, taunt/aggro mechanics did as well.
Good Aggro systems typically allow the mobs to go for Highest Current Threat (HCT) on factors like: damage inflicted (go for highest), distance from target (go for closest), and Buff/CC/Debuff (If any are in active use). Then developers give players skills to manipulate threat so healers and buffers don't need to be tanks.
If we could have a shieldwall actually work like a physical one it would not be an issue. You would have to go through the big burly guys (and gals) to strike at the squishy types behind them (without being flanked). This does not yet work in MMOs, so we manipulate aggro with taunts so a tank can 'shield' the squishy types of players.