btw everyone. I'm a tank, and I'm level 60. I four manned Epic Lair of The Mad Dragon, Three manned Epic Idris. And many other dungeons. Tanks are not broken, they are just fine.
Also if your having trouble with aggro, theres a passive power called "enhanced mark" it increases your aggro by up to 99%...
And theres a feat to go with that, that decreases the damage that marked targets do to your party by up to 25%,
Plus the skill called "Knights Valor" which can buff your whole team so they only take 1/2 of the damage they would have taken for up to 10 seconds
Tanks are not broken, they are more of a support class. If you read up on the skills and feats you would see that just because we dont do the best DPS doesnt mean we are broken. And the "Not able to keep threat" can be fixed if you actually read into the skills and feats.
Thus the name "Guardian" fighter...
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royceerockMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 15Arc User
edited May 2013
Not sure why they can make whatever the healer class is doing to gain aggro and put some on the GF.
I like playing my GF Im leveling at the moment and its just neat to charge around. However I have to drink pots like a beast the lack of health regen between fight is annoying.
I dont think GF is broken as they say they are, but need some work shoot its only been couple weeks. hell Bliz is still tweaking classes after 10 years
I am sooooooooo mad. Not at the game, at people. I have disabled zone chat for good. And I grew tired of people whinning because of their lack in skill. I play a TR and i LOVE GF and GWF. I want them in my team. I've not done any "impossible" dungeons but in pvp they are a must. i've seen GF on enemies team that I could kill in 2 seconds and GF that i didn't manage to kill once throughout the game. It has to do with how you play. I've seen GWF tearing me apart in 1 v1 (which makes sense actually), i've seen rogues tank but do a ****ty dps, i've seen a lot, clerics that never even heal ffs.. There's no really anything THAT op or broken it's just that people don't know how to play their ****.
I am doing 40-49 level pvps and i still see groups of people not realising they lost their base. They think it's about killing people while it's about holding the points and GF are perfect for that...So i don't know..to everyone stop WHINNING. I'm actually gonna turn that into a post
WoW had nothing to do with taunt/aggro mechanics (except for using them and... having a meter to gauge it). Just like AoE tanks existed before WoW, taunt/aggro mechanics did as well.
Good Aggro systems typically allow the mobs to go for Highest Current Threat (HCT) on factors like: damage inflicted (go for highest), distance from target (go for closest), and Buff/CC/Debuff (If any are in active use). Then developers give players skills to manipulate threat so healers and buffers don't need to be tanks.
If we could have a shieldwall actually work like a physical one it would not be an issue. You would have to go through the big burly guys (and gals) to strike at the squishy types behind them (without being flanked). This does not yet work in MMOs, so we manipulate aggro with taunts so a tank can 'shield' the squishy types of players.
The origins of the idiot taunt system is not the point, the fact that it is idiotic is the point. Most of these people associate it with wow and most people know that, but back on point.
No aggro systems are not needed. Back when EQ came out and people were on dial up, the cooldowns and such were needed. That is not now. NOW games like COD(which I despise) take place in real time with actual hit location in real time. The technology is there to get ride of that stupid aggro idea, it is the player base that is trying to keep it alive because they are used to it.
Collision detection exists in other mmos so yes you can be the WALL. However, large monsters in D&D will push you out of the way or walk over you depending on which rules you use. So, that means your squishy types are going to have to play smart and move. Now your melee types still save them with things like "knee breaker" since we are talking about GF here. That ability is primed and ready to be used for just such a purpose. A monster gets nailed by a wizard or has someone they are fighting healed, they go after the wizard or cleric. Just like in D&D. This game already has combat advantage in it, they turn their back on you to go get the squishy they get hurt more. The simple fix is turn on collision detection in instances and leave it off out of them. Now you have your shield wall system, but large monsters will knock you out of the way and go after the squishy if given enough of a reason. This game has all the tools in place already to do this right.
Example of D&D combat. 2 fighters, 1 cleric, 1 wizard, and one utility. 15 orcs show up. Magically hit a taunt button to make them only hit the 2 fighters? No. Can 2 block 20 orcs? No. This is where the wizard better have web or something up for group crowd control and then a nasty AOE ready. Didn't memorize the right spells? Maybe utility brought some caltrips to drop on the ground as the 2 squishys run and try and kite the orcs on them long enough for the fighters to take down the ones they are fighting. Or the utility thief drops smoke bombs to slow them down and hide. <
this is far more fun, this is why you need that wizard and the utility class AKA what thief USED to be before this magical MOST dps nonsense was created to give them a reason to exist in EQ because they didn't have the utility content ready. If its a big bad monster then the 2 fighters get combat advantage on em, everyone blasts it, if it goes for the cleric or wizard then take turns hamstringing it and cutting it off. NW has all the mechanics in place to make this type of battle happen.
Or stick with ok walk in a room. Fighter hit your taunt button. Spam your taunt abilities, use your rotation. DPS use your rotation. Wizard use your rotation. Cleric use your rotation. Everyone avoid the big blowing circles. Rinse wash and repeat. You really prefer this?
Yet, people want to whine if it isn't the same magic "taunt" button hold aggro nonsense and keep games back in the EQ/WOW clone.
I suggest you go play GW2 or DDO to see how taunt is not needed and this game has the mechanics in place to do it even better than those.
Now if those taunt lovers succeed. They'll get bored and whine about more end game content, because they've been playing the SAME game for coming up on 8-15 years depending on when they started doing mmos based on taunt making monsters utterly stupid. The difference is graphics and character class names. WOW, COH, EQ, EQ2, WHO, DAOC, etc... That is what this thread is about. The guy wants to make sure he can taunt hold ANYTHING he wants no matter what. I'm totally against that, but I'm sure I'm in the minority. Those 3 million WOW players that left it spread out and don't know any better.
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hrothgargrimboldMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 19Arc User
edited May 2013
Lvl 45 here, I am pretty fine, I think I do pretty well dmg even single target wise... Every dungeon I run (up to Pirate King) I was 2nd on dps meters in the end...
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xerokaiser0Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 9Arc User
I'm a 12k GS Cleric. I've solo healed all epic bosses. I have never played with a GF, and never felt the need to. If that doesn't convince anyone that something is wrong, I don't know what will.
It's not just the tank's problem, though; Clerics are too strong, and surviving with multiple CW's is really easy.
edit: I think it would be interesting if Astral Shield got a damage reduction nerf, and Guardian Fighters got a passive that redirected a portion (~20%) of party damage taken to themselves.
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cwiyk13Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited May 2013
I haven't read this entire thread but, as a Devoted Cleric, I want to let all of you Guardian Fighters know that I really hope Cryptic fixes all your issues. I would be thrilled to see a Guardian Fighter class with the ability to catch and hold agro while taking whatever damage is dished out and still coming back for more! (Almost as thrilled as I would be if Righteousness was removed.)
P.S. I mean that in the most sincere manner possible. Rereading my post, I want to make it clear that I'm supporting your position.
btw everyone. I'm a tank, and I'm level 60. I four manned Epic Lair of The Mad Dragon, Three manned Epic Idris. And many other dungeons. Tanks are not broken, they are just fine.
Also if your having trouble with aggro, theres a passive power called "enhanced mark" it increases your aggro by up to 99%...
And theres a feat to go with that, that decreases the damage that marked targets do to your party by up to 25%,
Plus the skill called "Knights Valor" which can buff your whole team so they only take 1/2 of the damage they would have taken for up to 10 seconds
Tanks are not broken, they are more of a support class. If you read up on the skills and feats you would see that just because we dont do the best DPS doesnt mean we are broken. And the "Not able to keep threat" can be fixed if you actually read into the skills and feats.
Thus the name "Guardian" fighter...
Interesting view on the role of this class. Giving your party survivability, not really tanking in the classic sense. In pickup groups it'll probably go unnoticed and you'd be viewed as a "Guardian that runs around not tanking much. We should have waited a few more hours for a second healer. We carried him, I'm surprised we won."
To be honest I never thought of it like that. Hmm, survival buffer class. I should make another guardian since I used the whole dd to hold hate better thing (I still fight my NPC for aggro at the start.. She messes me up a lot, opening with mobs running to her), I only solo, and do some PVP. I don't even bother trying to do dungeons after my first experience at around level 15. I failed on the boss 1st round, then decided to use the aoe mark, and individual mark ability as I thought I was kiting mobs (too many red circles to try to bunker, and shield depletes too fast on all of those mobs to expect to block the aoe) and won. I seemed to get their attention but I couldn't really see how the fight was really going since the combat log don't seem to be very detailed. I usually use that to see who is taking damage and from what in other games.
Too bad the aoe mark has a limit on how many enemies receive the mark. I can always individually mark the big ones at least. I wish respec wasn't so expensive. For PVP, mark the enemies, and run so they can't remove mark. I wonder how effective that would be with stuff like into the fray. Bard class?!!!
Edit: Wow that DC Righteousness thing sounds weird. I was going to level a DC but I'll just wait it out with my GF and GWF, or finish up my CW. Also reading over the linked "Righteousness" thread I now know that you guys are the bards with damage resistance. Maybe that + a Into The Fray type of Guardian Fighter is a interesting combo for PVP.
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pysceaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 8Arc User
I'm a 12k GS Cleric. I've solo healed all epic bosses. I have never played with a GF, and never felt the need to. If that doesn't convince anyone that something is wrong, I don't know what will.
It's not just the tank's problem, though; Clerics are too strong, and surviving with multiple CW's is really easy.
edit: I think it would be interesting if Astral Shield got a damage reduction nerf, and Guardian Fighters got a passive that redirected a portion (~20%) of party damage taken to themselves.
Gaurdian Fighters do have such an ability, it's called Knight's Valor, and it redirects 50% of party damage to themselves. Additionally, with a few points in the right places and proper skill combinations, a GF should be further reducing damage to party members by at least an additional 20%, potentially a lot more.
The potential damage mitigation provided by a GF isn't easily apparent or highly visible (such as a big blue circle on the ground), but it can be significant.
If Clerics didn't have damage mitigation abilities, and only healed/dps, you would see the need for a GF rise IMMENSELY!
Stick it out. Keep in mind that this is week two, again, week two of open beta. Things will change. As far as I know how many people are clearing the final Tiered dungeon? Do they have a GF? Would they say no, you dont need one.
I played a Rogue tank in Rift from day one. We was always looked at as a not needed tank except on a couple of fights. But they fixed that. And now a Rogue is just as viable as a tank and a Warrior or Cleric.
Things will change, just have some patience and give the devs some.................................... SQUIRREL!!
Sorry got distracted.
This is what I keep hoping, that things will become balanced over time. My main is a 60 GF with 11.6 GS and I feel useless in dungeons. I go with friends but still. I respecced to DPS and now I usually end up an Elite with 2.5 mil dps done, which is usually about 2 mil less than the TR and CW has, and I usually have the most damage taken so I feel I at least made the DC's job a bit easier...
But really, I could play a cleric and I'd be much more help to them. My cleric's 21 and coming up decently quickly. My CW is 37th. I'll be able to do Elites with something else soon, since GFs are only moderately useful compared to CWs and DCs.
Gaurdian Fighters do have such an ability, it's called Knight's Valor, and it redirects 50% of party damage to themselves. Additionally, with a few points in the right places and proper skill combinations, a GF should be further reducing damage to party members by at least an additional 20%, potentially a lot more.
Pretty much this. AS only reduces 40% dmg in a tiny area - KV reduces 50% across the entire map. Not to mention how useful Into the Fray is. The incoming damage from KV is negligible to a well geared GF, especially if he's using Villains Menace. Which will always be available if he's running Fray and KV.
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elanithMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Gaurdian Fighters do have such an ability, it's called Knight's Valor, and it redirects 50% of party damage to themselves. Additionally, with a few points in the right places and proper skill combinations, a GF should be further reducing damage to party members by at least an additional 20%, potentially a lot more.
The potential damage mitigation provided by a GF isn't easily apparent or highly visible (such as a big blue circle on the ground), but it can be significant.
If Clerics didn't have damage mitigation abilities, and only healed/dps, you would see the need for a GF rise IMMENSELY!
Specing this way sounds great, but we have reduced DPS, and have issues maintaing threat on mobs over dps/healers.
or
I can spec Conq, compete with rogues/GWF in DPS, have only slightly less damage mitigation AND be able to maintain threat on almost every mobs (all the ones that count anyway) and thereby prevent anyone else from taking damage.
I'm not saying i like the way things are right now, but i dont see how specing prot right now is usefull.
Gaurdian Fighters do have such an ability, it's called Knight's Valor, and it redirects 50% of party damage to themselves. Additionally, with a few points in the right places and proper skill combinations, a GF should be further reducing damage to party members by at least an additional 20%, potentially a lot more.
The potential damage mitigation provided by a GF isn't easily apparent or highly visible (such as a big blue circle on the ground), but it can be significant.
If Clerics didn't have damage mitigation abilities, and only healed/dps, you would see the need for a GF rise IMMENSELY!
I know they have an ability that can do it, but they honestly need a passive with it as well.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited May 2013
My biggest issue is that many boss attacks can still knock you through block - since GF's have no dash ability to get out of AoE, this needs to be addressed. If I am prone or in the midst of a knock, I cannot gain or hold aggro. I can deal w/ being shoved backward, as long as I'm still standing, but not when I'm being thrown about. Additionally, GFs should be able to drink potions w/o having to drop block, (at least in PvE).
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
I'm not saying i like the way things are right now, but i dont see how specing prot right now is usefull.
You don't have to spec proc to be an armoured powerhouse and use KV and ItF. I'm a conqueror, use the Cleave feat boost, make use of KV and ItF, have no problems maintaining aggro on huge groups of mobs and surviving it.
Because I'm using my encounter powers to mitigate damage rather than deal it I'm usually low on the DPS charts but high on the mobs Killed chart. I usually only use that setup during boss fights, and I'll often lead in kills/DPS or place second right up until the boss fight.
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elanithMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Sorry was thinking it was being suggested we spec Prot and we would be ok doing so. Speed reading at work fail. I use into the fray constantly on most runs, especially clearing trash + any boss fights where i might be kiting adds or on the boss full time.
Don't usually use KV, mostlly because i dont usually see the need. cleric aoe spam is better if the damage is spread around anyway, and im usually the only one getting hit anyway due most things being stuck to me
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pysceaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 8Arc User
edited May 2013
I have very few issues holding threat on just about everything specced Protection and taking advantage of Threatening Rush + Enhanced Mark + Blocking Attacks to keep the marks up (guarded attacks maintain the Mark, I think a lot of GF miss this crucial point).
The only time I run into trouble is if a CW is really making a mess of things with knockback/etc, or if there are a TON of fast mobs that I can't keep up with, but usually those don't hit that hard and it's not a big deal.
I'm typically last or 2nd to last on damage meter, but almost always at least 2x as much dmg taken than 2nd dmg taken (cleric usually), often 3-5x dmg taken than other party members.
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sirocyrisMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited May 2013
Allow me to summarize this thread,
Avoidance Tank > Mitigation Tank
A trend that been true in pretty much every rpg ever created. You'd think game designers would have figured this out by now.
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pysceaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 8Arc User
Avoidance Tank > Mitigation Tank
A trend that been true in pretty much every rpg ever created. You'd think game designers would have figured this out by now.
Forgive me if I'm not getting the gist of your statement, but I don't think that's true in the case of NW in it's current state.
A GF is more of the avoidance tank in this game if played a certain way, while Clerics are the mitigation tank with their easy-mode, fire and forget, AoE circles of love. You don't see too many groups clamoring for the double GF combo like you do the double Cleric combo....
Unless this is the point you are trying to make, and that it should not be this way, then I agree.
You insist on having mobs that are totally unintelligent and can be controlled with a "taunt" feature. No minds of their own, all are dumb enough to ignore the healers and casters no matter what they do. That about sum it up? You watch your little meter aggro meter and know exactly how the fight is going to go. AKK a WOW clone. That about sum it up?
How about the game force you to ignore the healers and casters in the back and make you beat on the fodder in the front? Sound fun not being aloud to think or do something smart? I don't think so.
Well, I can say I totally disagree. I actual want a bit of a challenge, I want the monsters to know who to try and kill first and to not be convinced not to. So, by all means keep letting the monsters break that magical (make them mentally handicapped) "taunt" feature from time to time. I'm all for making people think on their feet and adapt. You know like Dungeons and Dragons is supposed to be...
As has been said. I like the whole have the GF go solo the big baddie and everyone else leave it alone and take care of the other mobs. The cleric runs over there and heals the GF... look out because the baddie gets to have a brain. Make the GF play well to not need that heal. In general I'd like for mobs to have a "roll"(like in D&D) where they can break any amount of aggro to mix things up. Make you that character saving that CC for when that happens to get control of em before things get out of hand. Smart AI is fun to me.
I'm hoping the Devs keep going in this direction and not bend to this WOW mobs have no intelligence and are totally controlled by aggro and taunt stuff. Just my thoughts. I'm have a blast and really enjoying the game.
I totally agree with this sentiment. Sure it might not be perfect yet, and perhaps some dungeons aren't tuned perfectly (you are playing a beta...), but I hope the Devs don't switch to a traditional system just because the masses want something easier. Heck, the fact that this tank n' spank system doesn't quite work the same as other MMOs is part of the reason I still play this game. If it's aggro/tank/heal gameplay was just like WoW...I would have quit out of boredom.
Thanks all! We're always working to make all classes feel balanced, and this feedback helps us do just that. Thanks for voicing your thoughts!
Hi Som, after your next round table next week, can us fighter classes please get some actual solid information as to what you are planning to do before we become extinct?
Possibly something more serious then words like "feel".
The problem with guardians IMO is not aggro management - we have an aoe taunt and a single target taunt via knights challenge. The problem lies in our survivability. We are only given slightly higher HP and resistance value so any face tanking can be done with any class. Our shift ability - block, is suppose to be the answer.
For those that do not play a guardian, whenever we put our shield up, we take damage with our block bar. The block bar gets depleted way to fast in any encounters that actually matters. For example, the wolf den boss. I have no problems getting the aggro of the shadow wolves that chases the cleric. The issue is after the taunt, now what? I have now several angry wolfs that deals extreme damage each and breaks our block bar in less than a sec. So instead of the cleric dying, we die instead.
IMO a very simple fix to the guardian is to tie the block bar not to damage, but to a duration instead. I.e. whenever the GF puts the shield up the block bar depletes at a set rate. He can no longer block when the bar is empty. However, when he is blocking, he is immune to any frontal damage and effects. This way, the GF can at least ensure a few seconds of survival when he taunts.
We can start off by having a 4 second block duration with a full bar and balance it off from there.
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blapples86Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Could boss damage outputs be increased enough to make it considerably more difficult, though not impossible necessarily, for non-tanks to tank endgame bosses with 2 clerics. Basically, just enough so that a dps oriented rogue tanking for a 2 cleric optimal efficiency group no longer makes for an optimal efficiency group anymore.
They could be doable with enough gear/skill still and the same 2 cleric group with rogue tank. It just wouldn't be obviously the most superior endgame farming group composition any more. Groups with tanks and one cleric have it considerably harder on adds usually. Why shouldn't a group with 2 clerics and a wiz taking care of adds easily have a considerably harder time tanking, and therefore having about an equal (at least a lot closer to equal) risk of wipes. It seems like any group composition should have some weakness that challenges them if they are too specialized in one area like heals or dps. As it stands there is this one composition with only one slot that is very replaceable and it gets not only highly specialized heals/survival but also good if not great damage and good if not great add control AND a dps class built for high dps being able to tank the boss with little to no more difficulty than a tankier built person could. Seems a bit op given what the current standard of difficulty seems to be for everyone else not playing with that 2 cleric composition.
It is hard to say, but beyond that clerics might need a bit of a nerf too at some point for more detailed balancing. If more boss damage or something like it is ever done then we could see if clerics AS still seem too much more powerful than people can imagine they really should be. But that is kinda a ways down the road stuff I would imagine. Unless for some reason a cleric nerf just ends up being plain easier and/or quicker than messing with bosses. Or it could just be an obvious quick decision to Cryptic that it is working a little better than intended and should be toned down a bit quickly (or maybe a bug related to it fixed if there is one though, I am not aware of any claims of one that makes it any more powerful). So, it could get done soon or even without boss damage ever changing. I just wouldn't count on it getting messed with too soon considering what little I currently know about what is being considered relating to this.
I don't really see the core group dynamics and composition viability issues as balancing as much as it is just making some parts of the game work closer to as would seem is likely intended (based on looking at the game from the view of a variety of group compositions and seeing that one stands out far and above the rest). I seriously doubt it, but if these things are working pretty much as intended then fair enough. I can't really know Cryptic's intentions without them telling me.
One final (long) note that is related. Threat could use some tweaking. Not to say tanks should tank everything or clerics should get negligible aggro. I'm just saying I can feel what a lot of other people are saying. Idk about some of this being said about tanks needing a "I aggro everything with one button" ability. I think the way GF's powers work are pretty good. Maybe a slight change like making mark stick for at least 3-5 seconds before it can drop or something like that would be sufficient. I'm sure there are a number of things that could be done to give a miniscule threat increase to GF's if it is needed. Even if we don't get that, I think our threat is pretty fair already. I have no problems pulling off a cleric and holding it. Clerics threat does seem a bit more over the top. I'm fine with them getting initial add hate and even taking a number of hits, but it should be reasonably possible to peel adds off them for anyone else in the party with decent damage and/or threat amplifiers before the cleric gets killed. Granted, people should have time to help them because clerics should be alert and ready to kite or take other defensive action when they know adds will be upon them shortly. If as a cleric, adds spawn and come to you and kill you without you doing much if anything to escape them, well... I'm sorry but that is pretty likely on you. No one can do anything for a cleric that doesn't live long enough for anyone to see the adds and have time to turn and get to however many may be on you. Chances are you're going to be taking at least one hit from several mobs or more as cleric after group members get to you or target adds anyway. Unless enough have cc ready or you are moving and playing defensively for yourself. Does that mean run all over the place? Nope, you can kite in a fairly controlled manner that keeps you from making adds on you kite your teammates completely too. So they can more quickly and effectively help you. Anyway, I gotta stop typing about clerics before I go way off on a completely unrelated tangent about them in this GF thread. I think most of what I said about them is at least loosely GF related so far.
So, just wanted to give my views and suggestions relating to this topic because I've done some additional reading and thinking on it since I last posted about it. My views now are somewhat similar, but there was some new stuff I learned of that changed how I was thinking about clerics in relation to these group dynamic issues that make GF's seem more useless than they are. Really, GF's are just quite sub-par compared to 2 clerics healing a rogue that can tank the content at the current degree of difficulty while a wizard and the clerics can handle the adds more easily than most groups.
Somewhat similar issue to boss fights being all about adds, I guess. I am fine with them having as much add action as they do currently, but the fights definitely need enough balance to cater in some aspect of them to the good old tank/heal/dps dynamic. As well as a number of other roles important to controlling the add action as much as possible while still being able to fill the tank/heal/dps roles [the extra control (and hopefully other swappable mechanics like offheals and strong aoe dps eventually) being the somewhat more unique aspect of group dynamics in this game compared to many, but by no means all, others).
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cihuacoatlMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Wtaf? a Guardian that knows how to play is almost to op... >_>
Wrong, GF that run Envy build or Conq build are OP. All others.. Protection or Tactics are not doing so well.
All the GF that post saying we are fine are running Conq builds. Anyone that is not running the 1 working tree are complaining. The funny thing is Conq build is not even a tanking build it is suppose to be a DPS option for GF. However atm you either pay PWE cash for a rebuild or you do not play T2 dungeons.
Then when they finally get up to fixing Protection and Tactics those of use that want to actually tank will have to pay PWE yet again for fixing our broken trees.
So let me break this down for you:
Conqueror - Works great
Protection - has numerous broken feats and not enough dps to hold threat
Tactics - can hold threat but only on a small amount of mobs in a limited range and is unable to hold threat off of anyone for more than 4 seconds (in T2).
What this means is DPS is required to generate enough threat. DPS is required to be viable in the meta... yet true tank builds are broken.
This is only for T2s... in T1 we have no issues.. then again they are so easy it really doesn't matter. My guild pulls 1/4 the dungeon at a time and just had the DC tank all 20-40 mobs while we kill them. GF can only dream of doing this.
GWF is pretty bad atm, I feel -so- gimped compared to playing my CW. I've seen some good Guardian Fighters though who can indeed tank, altough its in the mentioned DPS spec, which is a bit silly.
Derp , derpity, derp.
There been so many threads for this topic and many guides that teach you how to play, read.
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blapples86Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I was way too tired when I made my last post. Typed way more than I should have. Basically, GF's seem more or less alright, but the game isn't balanced to make them necessary (and yes the tank feats do have a lot of bugs at present even if we were made necessary it might not go well under present conditions).
Should tanks be strictly necessary anyway? Probably not. But there should at least a be a benefit to having them over other choices. Benefits like say... group survivability. When groups without tanks have the same survivability as groups with tanks (in the. case of 2 clerics 2 rogue 1 wiz it seems even more so survivable than with a tank which wouldn't allow a 2nd DC without a big hit to dps) then there is a problem, and yeah tanks are gonna complain (which they should because its beta and it is plausible if not probable that what is going on at present in endgame isn't precisely what is intended).
Also, tanks being so unnecessary they hold a group back more than benefit them suggests to me that content is too easy (or clerics are a bit op, not saying they are, just that it seems like they could be). Which led me to the suggestion in my post that's so long I doubt it gets read. Bosses could maybe hit harder if the game in fact is intended to give some value to tanks.
Go ahead and give me some names of relevant pre-WoW MMOs that had tanks that held aggro on whole groups. EQ did not, UO didn't have classes, DAoC did not have that kind of tank, either. If you can't resist personal attacks like "that is just stupid", at least also include actual information.
EQ tanks absolutely DID have to hold agro on groups of mobs. I say this as someone who did hard core, 6 day a week raiding from original Vox/Nag all the way through to Plane of Time.
Also, you should probably check the definition of a "personal attack". :rolleyes:
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zardoz007Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 2Arc User
First thing people are going to ask is what's your rotation is to gain threat.
I'm not disputing your post, just pointing out what others will want to know. I'm not 60, so I don't have enough experience at that level in this game to agree or disagree.
I do know it's annoying that the mark is lost when we get hit. How quickly are things punching through your guard at your level?
No it is true. I just did The red Dragon fight with a 10k GS Conquere spec Guardian fighter. I out geared my entire party at the end of the dungeon I topped the damage charts I out damaged the rogue and both wizards. My threat rotation is threatening rush, Cleave three times repeat when I don't have threat. to Threatening rush Stab three times when I do have threat.
I never once got the red dragon off the cleric. I ran Enhanced Mark rank 3, Combat Superiority rank 3, Knights Valor Rank 3, Enforced threat Rank 3 and Griffons Wrath Rank 3, With Fighters Recovery Rank 3 as my staple daily. (I kinda hoped the healing would help my threat like it over loads cleric threat but it does not).
Now for all I know the Cleric had 0 aggro reduction moves and just stood there and over healed like a doofus. But still I was lead damage in that dungeon with all the threat tech you can ask for and a good understanding on how to keep targets marked and building threat. Still nothing.
As for losing Guard. A main attack from a Fire gaint mob at that level will take away like 75% of your guard meter. If you are foolish to block a red dragons breath cone straight on you will lose your entire guard meter and still take damage(smart players get out the way) You learn that quickly. Multiple mobs attacking you will destroy your guard meter in under a second, and I have the +25% guard meter from the full PVP GF set.
GF has some solid damage, good tanky moves, CC and party buffs. They blow GWF Out of the water in combined tankyness and Damage yet they still can't hold threat and I am supposed to make 300% threat when attacking a marked target....
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Also if your having trouble with aggro, theres a passive power called "enhanced mark" it increases your aggro by up to 99%...
And theres a feat to go with that, that decreases the damage that marked targets do to your party by up to 25%,
Plus the skill called "Knights Valor" which can buff your whole team so they only take 1/2 of the damage they would have taken for up to 10 seconds
Tanks are not broken, they are more of a support class. If you read up on the skills and feats you would see that just because we dont do the best DPS doesnt mean we are broken. And the "Not able to keep threat" can be fixed if you actually read into the skills and feats.
Thus the name "Guardian" fighter...
I like playing my GF Im leveling at the moment and its just neat to charge around. However I have to drink pots like a beast the lack of health regen between fight is annoying.
I dont think GF is broken as they say they are, but need some work shoot its only been couple weeks. hell Bliz is still tweaking classes after 10 years
I am doing 40-49 level pvps and i still see groups of people not realising they lost their base. They think it's about killing people while it's about holding the points and GF are perfect for that...So i don't know..to everyone stop WHINNING. I'm actually gonna turn that into a post
The origins of the idiot taunt system is not the point, the fact that it is idiotic is the point. Most of these people associate it with wow and most people know that, but back on point.
No aggro systems are not needed. Back when EQ came out and people were on dial up, the cooldowns and such were needed. That is not now. NOW games like COD(which I despise) take place in real time with actual hit location in real time. The technology is there to get ride of that stupid aggro idea, it is the player base that is trying to keep it alive because they are used to it.
Collision detection exists in other mmos so yes you can be the WALL. However, large monsters in D&D will push you out of the way or walk over you depending on which rules you use. So, that means your squishy types are going to have to play smart and move. Now your melee types still save them with things like "knee breaker" since we are talking about GF here. That ability is primed and ready to be used for just such a purpose. A monster gets nailed by a wizard or has someone they are fighting healed, they go after the wizard or cleric. Just like in D&D. This game already has combat advantage in it, they turn their back on you to go get the squishy they get hurt more. The simple fix is turn on collision detection in instances and leave it off out of them. Now you have your shield wall system, but large monsters will knock you out of the way and go after the squishy if given enough of a reason. This game has all the tools in place already to do this right.
Example of D&D combat. 2 fighters, 1 cleric, 1 wizard, and one utility. 15 orcs show up. Magically hit a taunt button to make them only hit the 2 fighters? No. Can 2 block 20 orcs? No. This is where the wizard better have web or something up for group crowd control and then a nasty AOE ready. Didn't memorize the right spells? Maybe utility brought some caltrips to drop on the ground as the 2 squishys run and try and kite the orcs on them long enough for the fighters to take down the ones they are fighting. Or the utility thief drops smoke bombs to slow them down and hide. <
this is far more fun, this is why you need that wizard and the utility class AKA what thief USED to be before this magical MOST dps nonsense was created to give them a reason to exist in EQ because they didn't have the utility content ready. If its a big bad monster then the 2 fighters get combat advantage on em, everyone blasts it, if it goes for the cleric or wizard then take turns hamstringing it and cutting it off. NW has all the mechanics in place to make this type of battle happen.
Or stick with ok walk in a room. Fighter hit your taunt button. Spam your taunt abilities, use your rotation. DPS use your rotation. Wizard use your rotation. Cleric use your rotation. Everyone avoid the big blowing circles. Rinse wash and repeat. You really prefer this?
Yet, people want to whine if it isn't the same magic "taunt" button hold aggro nonsense and keep games back in the EQ/WOW clone.
I suggest you go play GW2 or DDO to see how taunt is not needed and this game has the mechanics in place to do it even better than those.
Now if those taunt lovers succeed. They'll get bored and whine about more end game content, because they've been playing the SAME game for coming up on 8-15 years depending on when they started doing mmos based on taunt making monsters utterly stupid. The difference is graphics and character class names. WOW, COH, EQ, EQ2, WHO, DAOC, etc... That is what this thread is about. The guy wants to make sure he can taunt hold ANYTHING he wants no matter what. I'm totally against that, but I'm sure I'm in the minority. Those 3 million WOW players that left it spread out and don't know any better.
Then what's the point of a tank? High defense is irrelevant if everything just ignores you.
It's not just the tank's problem, though; Clerics are too strong, and surviving with multiple CW's is really easy.
edit: I think it would be interesting if Astral Shield got a damage reduction nerf, and Guardian Fighters got a passive that redirected a portion (~20%) of party damage taken to themselves.
P.S. I mean that in the most sincere manner possible. Rereading my post, I want to make it clear that I'm supporting your position.
Interesting view on the role of this class. Giving your party survivability, not really tanking in the classic sense. In pickup groups it'll probably go unnoticed and you'd be viewed as a "Guardian that runs around not tanking much. We should have waited a few more hours for a second healer. We carried him, I'm surprised we won."
To be honest I never thought of it like that. Hmm, survival buffer class. I should make another guardian since I used the whole dd to hold hate better thing (I still fight my NPC for aggro at the start.. She messes me up a lot, opening with mobs running to her), I only solo, and do some PVP. I don't even bother trying to do dungeons after my first experience at around level 15. I failed on the boss 1st round, then decided to use the aoe mark, and individual mark ability as I thought I was kiting mobs (too many red circles to try to bunker, and shield depletes too fast on all of those mobs to expect to block the aoe) and won. I seemed to get their attention but I couldn't really see how the fight was really going since the combat log don't seem to be very detailed. I usually use that to see who is taking damage and from what in other games.
Too bad the aoe mark has a limit on how many enemies receive the mark. I can always individually mark the big ones at least. I wish respec wasn't so expensive. For PVP, mark the enemies, and run so they can't remove mark. I wonder how effective that would be with stuff like into the fray. Bard class?!!!
Edit: Wow that DC Righteousness thing sounds weird. I was going to level a DC but I'll just wait it out with my GF and GWF, or finish up my CW. Also reading over the linked "Righteousness" thread I now know that you guys are the bards with damage resistance. Maybe that + a Into The Fray type of Guardian Fighter is a interesting combo for PVP.
Gaurdian Fighters do have such an ability, it's called Knight's Valor, and it redirects 50% of party damage to themselves. Additionally, with a few points in the right places and proper skill combinations, a GF should be further reducing damage to party members by at least an additional 20%, potentially a lot more.
The potential damage mitigation provided by a GF isn't easily apparent or highly visible (such as a big blue circle on the ground), but it can be significant.
If Clerics didn't have damage mitigation abilities, and only healed/dps, you would see the need for a GF rise IMMENSELY!
This is what I keep hoping, that things will become balanced over time. My main is a 60 GF with 11.6 GS and I feel useless in dungeons. I go with friends but still. I respecced to DPS and now I usually end up an Elite with 2.5 mil dps done, which is usually about 2 mil less than the TR and CW has, and I usually have the most damage taken so I feel I at least made the DC's job a bit easier...
But really, I could play a cleric and I'd be much more help to them. My cleric's 21 and coming up decently quickly. My CW is 37th. I'll be able to do Elites with something else soon, since GFs are only moderately useful compared to CWs and DCs.
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Pretty much this. AS only reduces 40% dmg in a tiny area - KV reduces 50% across the entire map. Not to mention how useful Into the Fray is. The incoming damage from KV is negligible to a well geared GF, especially if he's using Villains Menace. Which will always be available if he's running Fray and KV.
Specing this way sounds great, but we have reduced DPS, and have issues maintaing threat on mobs over dps/healers.
or
I can spec Conq, compete with rogues/GWF in DPS, have only slightly less damage mitigation AND be able to maintain threat on almost every mobs (all the ones that count anyway) and thereby prevent anyone else from taking damage.
I'm not saying i like the way things are right now, but i dont see how specing prot right now is usefull.
I know they have an ability that can do it, but they honestly need a passive with it as well.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
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You don't have to spec proc to be an armoured powerhouse and use KV and ItF. I'm a conqueror, use the Cleave feat boost, make use of KV and ItF, have no problems maintaining aggro on huge groups of mobs and surviving it.
Because I'm using my encounter powers to mitigate damage rather than deal it I'm usually low on the DPS charts but high on the mobs Killed chart. I usually only use that setup during boss fights, and I'll often lead in kills/DPS or place second right up until the boss fight.
Don't usually use KV, mostlly because i dont usually see the need. cleric aoe spam is better if the damage is spread around anyway, and im usually the only one getting hit anyway due most things being stuck to me
The only time I run into trouble is if a CW is really making a mess of things with knockback/etc, or if there are a TON of fast mobs that I can't keep up with, but usually those don't hit that hard and it's not a big deal.
I'm typically last or 2nd to last on damage meter, but almost always at least 2x as much dmg taken than 2nd dmg taken (cleric usually), often 3-5x dmg taken than other party members.
Avoidance Tank > Mitigation Tank
A trend that been true in pretty much every rpg ever created. You'd think game designers would have figured this out by now.
Forgive me if I'm not getting the gist of your statement, but I don't think that's true in the case of NW in it's current state.
A GF is more of the avoidance tank in this game if played a certain way, while Clerics are the mitigation tank with their easy-mode, fire and forget, AoE circles of love. You don't see too many groups clamoring for the double GF combo like you do the double Cleric combo....
Unless this is the point you are trying to make, and that it should not be this way, then I agree.
I totally agree with this sentiment. Sure it might not be perfect yet, and perhaps some dungeons aren't tuned perfectly (you are playing a beta...), but I hope the Devs don't switch to a traditional system just because the masses want something easier. Heck, the fact that this tank n' spank system doesn't quite work the same as other MMOs is part of the reason I still play this game. If it's aggro/tank/heal gameplay was just like WoW...I would have quit out of boredom.
Hi Som, after your next round table next week, can us fighter classes please get some actual solid information as to what you are planning to do before we become extinct?
Possibly something more serious then words like "feel".
Thank you good sir
Extinction - GWF
For those that do not play a guardian, whenever we put our shield up, we take damage with our block bar. The block bar gets depleted way to fast in any encounters that actually matters. For example, the wolf den boss. I have no problems getting the aggro of the shadow wolves that chases the cleric. The issue is after the taunt, now what? I have now several angry wolfs that deals extreme damage each and breaks our block bar in less than a sec. So instead of the cleric dying, we die instead.
IMO a very simple fix to the guardian is to tie the block bar not to damage, but to a duration instead. I.e. whenever the GF puts the shield up the block bar depletes at a set rate. He can no longer block when the bar is empty. However, when he is blocking, he is immune to any frontal damage and effects. This way, the GF can at least ensure a few seconds of survival when he taunts.
We can start off by having a 4 second block duration with a full bar and balance it off from there.
They could be doable with enough gear/skill still and the same 2 cleric group with rogue tank. It just wouldn't be obviously the most superior endgame farming group composition any more. Groups with tanks and one cleric have it considerably harder on adds usually. Why shouldn't a group with 2 clerics and a wiz taking care of adds easily have a considerably harder time tanking, and therefore having about an equal (at least a lot closer to equal) risk of wipes. It seems like any group composition should have some weakness that challenges them if they are too specialized in one area like heals or dps. As it stands there is this one composition with only one slot that is very replaceable and it gets not only highly specialized heals/survival but also good if not great damage and good if not great add control AND a dps class built for high dps being able to tank the boss with little to no more difficulty than a tankier built person could. Seems a bit op given what the current standard of difficulty seems to be for everyone else not playing with that 2 cleric composition.
It is hard to say, but beyond that clerics might need a bit of a nerf too at some point for more detailed balancing. If more boss damage or something like it is ever done then we could see if clerics AS still seem too much more powerful than people can imagine they really should be. But that is kinda a ways down the road stuff I would imagine. Unless for some reason a cleric nerf just ends up being plain easier and/or quicker than messing with bosses. Or it could just be an obvious quick decision to Cryptic that it is working a little better than intended and should be toned down a bit quickly (or maybe a bug related to it fixed if there is one though, I am not aware of any claims of one that makes it any more powerful). So, it could get done soon or even without boss damage ever changing. I just wouldn't count on it getting messed with too soon considering what little I currently know about what is being considered relating to this.
I don't really see the core group dynamics and composition viability issues as balancing as much as it is just making some parts of the game work closer to as would seem is likely intended (based on looking at the game from the view of a variety of group compositions and seeing that one stands out far and above the rest). I seriously doubt it, but if these things are working pretty much as intended then fair enough. I can't really know Cryptic's intentions without them telling me.
One final (long) note that is related. Threat could use some tweaking. Not to say tanks should tank everything or clerics should get negligible aggro. I'm just saying I can feel what a lot of other people are saying. Idk about some of this being said about tanks needing a "I aggro everything with one button" ability. I think the way GF's powers work are pretty good. Maybe a slight change like making mark stick for at least 3-5 seconds before it can drop or something like that would be sufficient. I'm sure there are a number of things that could be done to give a miniscule threat increase to GF's if it is needed. Even if we don't get that, I think our threat is pretty fair already. I have no problems pulling off a cleric and holding it. Clerics threat does seem a bit more over the top. I'm fine with them getting initial add hate and even taking a number of hits, but it should be reasonably possible to peel adds off them for anyone else in the party with decent damage and/or threat amplifiers before the cleric gets killed. Granted, people should have time to help them because clerics should be alert and ready to kite or take other defensive action when they know adds will be upon them shortly. If as a cleric, adds spawn and come to you and kill you without you doing much if anything to escape them, well... I'm sorry but that is pretty likely on you. No one can do anything for a cleric that doesn't live long enough for anyone to see the adds and have time to turn and get to however many may be on you. Chances are you're going to be taking at least one hit from several mobs or more as cleric after group members get to you or target adds anyway. Unless enough have cc ready or you are moving and playing defensively for yourself. Does that mean run all over the place? Nope, you can kite in a fairly controlled manner that keeps you from making adds on you kite your teammates completely too. So they can more quickly and effectively help you. Anyway, I gotta stop typing about clerics before I go way off on a completely unrelated tangent about them in this GF thread. I think most of what I said about them is at least loosely GF related so far.
So, just wanted to give my views and suggestions relating to this topic because I've done some additional reading and thinking on it since I last posted about it. My views now are somewhat similar, but there was some new stuff I learned of that changed how I was thinking about clerics in relation to these group dynamic issues that make GF's seem more useless than they are. Really, GF's are just quite sub-par compared to 2 clerics healing a rogue that can tank the content at the current degree of difficulty while a wizard and the clerics can handle the adds more easily than most groups.
Somewhat similar issue to boss fights being all about adds, I guess. I am fine with them having as much add action as they do currently, but the fights definitely need enough balance to cater in some aspect of them to the good old tank/heal/dps dynamic. As well as a number of other roles important to controlling the add action as much as possible while still being able to fill the tank/heal/dps roles [the extra control (and hopefully other swappable mechanics like offheals and strong aoe dps eventually) being the somewhat more unique aspect of group dynamics in this game compared to many, but by no means all, others).
Wrong, GF that run Envy build or Conq build are OP. All others.. Protection or Tactics are not doing so well.
All the GF that post saying we are fine are running Conq builds. Anyone that is not running the 1 working tree are complaining. The funny thing is Conq build is not even a tanking build it is suppose to be a DPS option for GF. However atm you either pay PWE cash for a rebuild or you do not play T2 dungeons.
Then when they finally get up to fixing Protection and Tactics those of use that want to actually tank will have to pay PWE yet again for fixing our broken trees.
So let me break this down for you:
Conqueror - Works great
Protection - has numerous broken feats and not enough dps to hold threat
Tactics - can hold threat but only on a small amount of mobs in a limited range and is unable to hold threat off of anyone for more than 4 seconds (in T2).
What this means is DPS is required to generate enough threat. DPS is required to be viable in the meta... yet true tank builds are broken.
This is only for T2s... in T1 we have no issues.. then again they are so easy it really doesn't matter. My guild pulls 1/4 the dungeon at a time and just had the DC tank all 20-40 mobs while we kill them. GF can only dream of doing this.
There been so many threads for this topic and many guides that teach you how to play, read.
Should tanks be strictly necessary anyway? Probably not. But there should at least a be a benefit to having them over other choices. Benefits like say... group survivability. When groups without tanks have the same survivability as groups with tanks (in the. case of 2 clerics 2 rogue 1 wiz it seems even more so survivable than with a tank which wouldn't allow a 2nd DC without a big hit to dps) then there is a problem, and yeah tanks are gonna complain (which they should because its beta and it is plausible if not probable that what is going on at present in endgame isn't precisely what is intended).
Also, tanks being so unnecessary they hold a group back more than benefit them suggests to me that content is too easy (or clerics are a bit op, not saying they are, just that it seems like they could be). Which led me to the suggestion in my post that's so long I doubt it gets read. Bosses could maybe hit harder if the game in fact is intended to give some value to tanks.
EQ tanks absolutely DID have to hold agro on groups of mobs. I say this as someone who did hard core, 6 day a week raiding from original Vox/Nag all the way through to Plane of Time.
Also, you should probably check the definition of a "personal attack". :rolleyes:
No it is true. I just did The red Dragon fight with a 10k GS Conquere spec Guardian fighter. I out geared my entire party at the end of the dungeon I topped the damage charts I out damaged the rogue and both wizards. My threat rotation is threatening rush, Cleave three times repeat when I don't have threat. to Threatening rush Stab three times when I do have threat.
I never once got the red dragon off the cleric. I ran Enhanced Mark rank 3, Combat Superiority rank 3, Knights Valor Rank 3, Enforced threat Rank 3 and Griffons Wrath Rank 3, With Fighters Recovery Rank 3 as my staple daily. (I kinda hoped the healing would help my threat like it over loads cleric threat but it does not).
Now for all I know the Cleric had 0 aggro reduction moves and just stood there and over healed like a doofus. But still I was lead damage in that dungeon with all the threat tech you can ask for and a good understanding on how to keep targets marked and building threat. Still nothing.
As for losing Guard. A main attack from a Fire gaint mob at that level will take away like 75% of your guard meter. If you are foolish to block a red dragons breath cone straight on you will lose your entire guard meter and still take damage(smart players get out the way) You learn that quickly. Multiple mobs attacking you will destroy your guard meter in under a second, and I have the +25% guard meter from the full PVP GF set.
GF has some solid damage, good tanky moves, CC and party buffs. They blow GWF Out of the water in combined tankyness and Damage yet they still can't hold threat and I am supposed to make 300% threat when attacking a marked target....