I agree fully with your Plaguefire assessment. Crit itself just seems a little underwhelming overall, but Envy disagrees. I have the Timeless set (which admittedly I like a LOT), and fully stacked I seem to cap out at 25% crit. So using Timeless leaves a ton of room for customization with jewelry (if you care at all about crit). All the math shows its just as viable to go with Stalwart, assuming you're going to keep the stack up, which isn't hard for the majority of encounters in this game, over stacking any sort of crit. But regardless, ArPen seems really good for us. I have around 800 right now in my current gear. I've had a few good jewelry drops actually with crit/recovery/arpen as the affixes, so I tossed them on the Cat. I try to put any item with power directly on my character, as we get double the benefit from it (from our feats), whereas the cat just transfers 1 for 1. So the crit/recovery/arpen neck/ring I have is amazing there.
Another thing worth mentioning with this whole power debate that seems to be going on - the entire reason this build does so much damage, is that we get 100% bonus -power- from our final paragon feat. Without that, this build wouldn't put out nearly the amount of damage that it does. So for people to suddenly start claiming that power isn't very strong, or isn't good, then why spec 31 points into Conq at all? There are viable hybrid specs that utilize conq/tactician that I've looked at.
You just have to admit to some extent that power is pretty **** strong, and Stalwart gives you 8,000 of it for just doing your job - every time you hit enforcing threat on a pack of mobs, every time a boss drops a red circle with static environment damage, every boss that has a damage aura - so many ways to keep the stack up, you almost have to try to let it fall off. Math clearly shows that power is linear - you will always reap the benefits of it. Some of the people that are claiming power isn't "good" haven't even put on the Stalwart 4 piece to see just how good it is. People are giving up 8,000 power for 5% more crit (that's literally all I gain with the Timeless set - some static power, a small amount of recovery (which puts me way over my 3200 goal), and 5% crit).
It's literally impossible that 5% crit is out parsing 8,000 power. On top of that, assuming power is as good as I'm saying it is (it is), the Stalwart set gives you another flexible option when tanking in parties - you can actually use shield block if you aren't in a good position to dodge something WITHOUT suffering a massive dps loss. One of the core aspects of this build is what - Envy says it in his guide, I say it in mine - Block. Only. When. Necessary. Why? Because you lose your power bonus from the Conq. tree. But if power isn't good, then why do you care? Starting to see some contradiction here. The Stalwart set ALLOWS you to utilize blocks, which in a lot of situations is pretty necessary and a smarter thing to do than dodge everything.
Keep in mind - a lot of times I'll block a huge attack on purpose. Why? Because I have 42% AP gain - one block on a large attack literally fills up my daily meter. I can then immediately pop Villain's Menace and begin doing increased DPS, and I only take a hit on power from my base amount - in other words, if I have 4200 power unbuffed (including Conq. bonus), out of combat (no Stalwart stack), then I'm only going to lose 2100 power when I block, but retain the 8,000 bonus power from the set bonus. Which, in my current gear, means I still have 11,000 (roughly) power even when I'm blocking attacks. More blocks, more AP, more Villain's, minimal DPS loss. People are actually giving this up full time for 5% crit. It baffles me.
With that being said, once again, I have the Timeless set, and it's definitely a fun little set, but for the majority of T2 content in this game, I will continue to be using Stalwart - I've now seen both sets in action in dungeon runs, and Timeless isn't touching my Stalwart DPS. Food for thought.
As far as I know they only fixed a HAMSTER exploit people was abusing, they did not "nerf" our damage in any way. I might be wrong though, I haven't logged in to check if they did change anything beside the exploit yet.
0
rugeshieldMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 7Arc User
edited May 2013
I dont know, they posted this, its too vague to completely understand what do they mean, I didnt know there was an exploit with the GF, so that might be what they are referring to.
Combat
Fixed an issue where the Guardian Fighter was able to do significantly more damage than was intended.
Clarification: The change to Guardian Fighters is not a balance change and does not affect damage output for that class under normal circumstances. This fixes a very rare circumstance where damage would be calculated incorrectly to a significant degree. Most players have never experienced this, however, those who have know that it was significant enough to warrant a fix ASAP. Thanks to all the players who requested clarification on this!
Try to not read only part of a post and begin whining already, please.
0
rugeshieldMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 7Arc User
edited May 2013
I read the whole first page and there was nothing in the comments, thats why I posted here -.-
It's literally impossible that 5% crit is out parsing 8,000 power. On top of that, assuming power is as good as I'm saying it is (it is), the Stalwart set gives you another flexible option when tanking in parties - you can actually use shield block if you aren't in a good position to dodge something WITHOUT suffering a massive dps loss. One of the core aspects of this build is what - Envy says it in his guide, I say it in mine - Block. Only. When. Necessary. Why? Because you lose your power bonus from the Conq. tree. But if power isn't good, then why do you care? Starting to see some contradiction here. The Stalwart set ALLOWS you to utilize blocks, which in a lot of situations is pretty necessary and a smarter thing to do than dodge everything.
Yeap that's why I posted a few pages back that the Stalwart bonus is just crazy stupid strong. That much Power is simply impossible to ignore. The Stalwart bonus basically gives our class Rogue level DPS. The fact that all the stats on the gear are defensive is just added bonus because now not only are we getting super strong Power bonus but we also have crazy good defensive stats at the same time. I personally load up my Ioun Stone with Power/Crit (Primary)/Recovery and basically get the best of all worlds.
I block attacks all the time and am completely unaffected at temporarily losing 100% power because of the Stalwart bonus. There are some attacks you simply can't avoid and blocking for that attack are easier. For example in Mad Dragon his PBAOE knockback you can't out run it as even the edges will send you flying. If I feel AP starved I can go into block mode for a few seconds and bam instant daily to show up.
Now if they ever nerf it significantly, or you're going for PvP, I could see Timeless being more valuable. The strong base Power/Crit it has would be hard to ignore. However when you're comparing the two sets side by side in their current state Stalwart is the clear winner.
Now if they ever nerf it significantly, or you're going for PvP, I could see Timeless being more valuable. The strong base Power/Crit it has would be hard to ignore. However when you're comparing the two sets side by side in their current state Stalwart is the clear winner.
So would you guys recommend armors that focus on crit over Stalwart for pvp?
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drezekialMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 6Arc User
edited May 2013
I have a question about the Stalwart Bulwark set.
I just hit lv31, and my current build is almost the exact same as this build, so I decided to follow it.
Is the set only from the Lv60 versions of the dungeons?
Is the set pieces actually equipable at the low levels it says on the gear (36-42ish)?
I have about 500k saved up, would it be worth trying to buy some of the pieces now? if so, what ones?
Thanks!
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elanithMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Stalwart Bulwark drops from level 60 instances, but yes its currently equipable (some pieces) as early as 38 (at least for the pieces i have.
Gauntlets - level 38
Greaves - 52
Vallant Warriors Chest is 42 (I would assume Stalwart would be equip-able around than as well)
You know from reading this guide I wasn't far off when I started this game like 5 days ago.
I basically am doing almost the same things as described in this guide and pretty much confirmed that some stats need theorycrafting.
Nice guide for people who start off as GF.
My only concern is that getting the Stalwart set or any set is hard to do for people who can't do Mad Dragon.
What do you think is best of this and envy's build? He claims in his thread that his build is the best for both PvP and T2 dungeon tanking/dps. I allready have trouble keeping agro in lvl 40 dungeons with the envy build.
Envy ignores math and logic and also got caught exploiting if you care about that. So this guide/thread would be objectively better as far as optimizing your character.
0
ruingaurMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited May 2013
Hey wanted to start off and say awesome guide, I have followed this for a bit and has been the best way I have tackled dungeons, so thanks for your time and effort you put in.
I have been trying to farm up the helm for the last few days but mad dragon is tough. You don't happen to have extra's your selling do you Rokuthy?
Would this build help me get more threat or is that just me playing wrong?
Farming the hardest dungeon in the game using a bug to do millions of damage per swing.
This build should get you the most threat since it is primarily a function of dps in this game, but regardless you are going to have issues holding aggro in add swarms in T2 dungeons without an assist from singularity due to the current implementation of threat mechanics.
0
elanithMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Threat is good in this build but be aware that until you get the final point in conqueror tree + get threatening rush, things can be still a bit difficult for threat, but even if you havent gotten those yet its still better than the alternitives.
1) Reckless Attacker is a huge dps boost. It doubles our AP and is the main reason we can compete for dps with other classes.
2) Threatening rush - Short Range Charge + Marks all targets around your target fora short time. This ability is invaluable. If im in a group that is really pushing out the damage (better geared than I), many times ill do this to mark everyone around me before unleasing my abilities so i can generate double threat (through Enhanced Mark passive), especially if Enforced threat is still on cooldown.
3) 4 piece Stalwart Bulwark set is our next big jump in DPS and as Rokuthy pointed out makes it so we can block and loose our guard meter and still be able to dish out a ton of damage.
4) Lair of the Mad Dragon - If you dont have a normal group you run with, run other instances. If your doing your job, taking the damage, keeping your healer alive you will get friend invites after quite a few runs. Healers especially take notice when they are not getting hit. Once you get a normal group formed, get them to run the Mad Dragon.
I just hit lv31, and my current build is almost the exact same as this build, so I decided to follow it.
Is the set only from the Lv60 versions of the dungeons?
Is the set pieces actually equipable at the low levels it says on the gear (36-42ish)?
I have about 500k saved up, would it be worth trying to buy some of the pieces now? if so, what ones?
Thanks!
I would save your 500k and try to get the Helmet over any other piece. The Helm of the Stalwart Bulwark is easily the hardest piece to get. You can get the Chest/Gloves/Boots pretty easy from drops or from the Dungeon Delve chest.
I saw a lot to respond to here - not going to go back and quote everything so forgive me if I miss something.
1 - We weren't nerfed at all, they simply fixed the Valiant set bonus bug which caused massive damage bugs.
2 - My build and Envy's build are almost identical, there are only minor differences. Holding aggro will come from a combination of how much damage you're putting out, and to be perfectly honest, how good you are. You need to be proactive and also have great reaction time. You need to get on new mobs early, as the longer you wait, the more aggro your cleric is going to build. Once you have more than 5 adds up, your Enforced Threat isn't going to be a guaranteed taunt for you anymore (mob limit), etc. So threat is more than issue with the build, it boils down to how active you are.
3 - Yeah the Stalwart set is incredible, but there ARE other ways to gear up and play. As long as you're focusing on DPS stats, this build will do very well for you. You're still going to need defenses, but keep in mind that most of our gear is going to have defense on it anyways, so it's not something you need to go out of your way to focus on. So while you're waiting for Stalwart, start gearing up with whatever you can get your hands on, and if you have your heart set on Stalwart, start running Mad Dragon and figuring the fight out. Find out what works for you so that if you have to pug the instance, you can quickly explain the fight and then be successful.
I do solo queue on occasion, and I did a couple of mad dragon runs just the other day in hopes of grabbing a helm to give away to a lucky poster in this thread, but I didn't get the drop. I was able to tell my pug group exactly what needed to happen and we were able to one shot each boss through each run without much issue, so it's definitely doable. Get good at the fight, and knock it out during delves (hopefully twice).
4 - For pvp I change up abilities, but I typically run Frontline/bullrush/lunging with fighter's recovery at all times and then whatever other daily I feel like using. Threatening rush always as well.
hi rokuthy, first of all, good job and congrats on one of the most successful GF builds out there
I have a problem, I ran a 17 14 13 dice roll because I really wanted to get on the tanking business of things. Now that I'm 60 and realizing that the threat generation in this game is all over the place, I saw that a fully defensive/threat building GF just aggros adds just as good as (or even worse) than an offensive GF. I'm thinking of switching to an offensive GF but my initial dice roll kinda keeps me from doing it bec I'm just gonna get 20 25 15 in the end instead of 22 24 16. Am I thinking too much about it or does it really matter, those extra 2 points in STR.
Also what is your take on using a Grand Regent set on this build with crit accessories, a cat and maybe some enchantments here and there? (Dunno if you already went through this but yeah, the thread is already long and i dont have the time to go thru it all sorry)
So to get the Stalwart Set Helmet, it comes from the Mad Dragon run. I thought that you could get any T1 piece from any Dungeon Delve Chest, or is it just the MD chest?
0
drezekialMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 6Arc User
hi rokuthy, first of all, good job and congrats on one of the most successful GF builds out there
I have a problem, I ran a 17 14 13 dice roll because I really wanted to get on the tanking business of things. Now that I'm 60 and realizing that the threat generation in this game is all over the place, I saw that a fully defensive/threat building GF just aggros adds just as good as (or even worse) than an offensive GF. I'm thinking of switching to an offensive GF but my initial dice roll kinda keeps me from doing it bec I'm just gonna get 20 25 15 in the end instead of 22 24 16. Am I thinking too much about it or does it really matter, those extra 2 points in STR.
Also what is your take on using a Grand Regent set on this build with crit accessories, a cat and maybe some enchantments here and there? (Dunno if you already went through this but yeah, the thread is already long and i dont have the time to go thru it all sorry)
Yeah, you're thinking about it too much. A few strength isn't going to end your hopes of doing DPS, hehe. It's ok man. Grand Regent doesn't seem worth it to me right now, I almost have it completed, just need the gloves and then I'll check it out. If you want a T2 set, the Timeless is pretty sweet. I'll give me full thoughts on Regent once I have the 4th piece. It won't be a DPS king or anything but could be viable in the future if they make any changes to threat/meta game.
So to get the Stalwart Set Helmet, it comes from the Mad Dragon run. I thought that you could get any T1 piece from any Dungeon Delve Chest, or is it just the MD chest?
I'm fairly certain the delve chest will have a higher chance to drop the item the instance is meant to drop (mad dragon is helms and belts I believe? So you'd have a high chance at a class helm or belt). You'd also have the chance of the dragon itself dropping the helm, so I think it's the best bet for grabbing the Stalwart helm.
So to get the Stalwart Set Helmet, it comes from the Mad Dragon run. I thought that you could get any T1 piece from any Dungeon Delve Chest, or is it just the MD chest?
Comments
Another thing worth mentioning with this whole power debate that seems to be going on - the entire reason this build does so much damage, is that we get 100% bonus -power- from our final paragon feat. Without that, this build wouldn't put out nearly the amount of damage that it does. So for people to suddenly start claiming that power isn't very strong, or isn't good, then why spec 31 points into Conq at all? There are viable hybrid specs that utilize conq/tactician that I've looked at.
You just have to admit to some extent that power is pretty **** strong, and Stalwart gives you 8,000 of it for just doing your job - every time you hit enforcing threat on a pack of mobs, every time a boss drops a red circle with static environment damage, every boss that has a damage aura - so many ways to keep the stack up, you almost have to try to let it fall off. Math clearly shows that power is linear - you will always reap the benefits of it. Some of the people that are claiming power isn't "good" haven't even put on the Stalwart 4 piece to see just how good it is. People are giving up 8,000 power for 5% more crit (that's literally all I gain with the Timeless set - some static power, a small amount of recovery (which puts me way over my 3200 goal), and 5% crit).
It's literally impossible that 5% crit is out parsing 8,000 power. On top of that, assuming power is as good as I'm saying it is (it is), the Stalwart set gives you another flexible option when tanking in parties - you can actually use shield block if you aren't in a good position to dodge something WITHOUT suffering a massive dps loss. One of the core aspects of this build is what - Envy says it in his guide, I say it in mine - Block. Only. When. Necessary. Why? Because you lose your power bonus from the Conq. tree. But if power isn't good, then why do you care? Starting to see some contradiction here. The Stalwart set ALLOWS you to utilize blocks, which in a lot of situations is pretty necessary and a smarter thing to do than dodge everything.
Keep in mind - a lot of times I'll block a huge attack on purpose. Why? Because I have 42% AP gain - one block on a large attack literally fills up my daily meter. I can then immediately pop Villain's Menace and begin doing increased DPS, and I only take a hit on power from my base amount - in other words, if I have 4200 power unbuffed (including Conq. bonus), out of combat (no Stalwart stack), then I'm only going to lose 2100 power when I block, but retain the 8,000 bonus power from the set bonus. Which, in my current gear, means I still have 11,000 (roughly) power even when I'm blocking attacks. More blocks, more AP, more Villain's, minimal DPS loss. People are actually giving this up full time for 5% crit. It baffles me.
With that being said, once again, I have the Timeless set, and it's definitely a fun little set, but for the majority of T2 content in this game, I will continue to be using Stalwart - I've now seen both sets in action in dungeon runs, and Timeless isn't touching my Stalwart DPS. Food for thought.
Clarification: The change to Guardian Fighters is not a balance change and does not affect damage output for that class under normal circumstances. This fixes a very rare circumstance where damage would be calculated incorrectly to a significant degree. Most players have never experienced this, however, those who have know that it was significant enough to warrant a fix ASAP. Thanks to all the players who requested clarification on this!
Try to not read only part of a post and begin whining already, please.
Yeap that's why I posted a few pages back that the Stalwart bonus is just crazy stupid strong. That much Power is simply impossible to ignore. The Stalwart bonus basically gives our class Rogue level DPS. The fact that all the stats on the gear are defensive is just added bonus because now not only are we getting super strong Power bonus but we also have crazy good defensive stats at the same time. I personally load up my Ioun Stone with Power/Crit (Primary)/Recovery and basically get the best of all worlds.
I block attacks all the time and am completely unaffected at temporarily losing 100% power because of the Stalwart bonus. There are some attacks you simply can't avoid and blocking for that attack are easier. For example in Mad Dragon his PBAOE knockback you can't out run it as even the edges will send you flying. If I feel AP starved I can go into block mode for a few seconds and bam instant daily to show up.
Now if they ever nerf it significantly, or you're going for PvP, I could see Timeless being more valuable. The strong base Power/Crit it has would be hard to ignore. However when you're comparing the two sets side by side in their current state Stalwart is the clear winner.
So would you guys recommend armors that focus on crit over Stalwart for pvp?
I just hit lv31, and my current build is almost the exact same as this build, so I decided to follow it.
Is the set only from the Lv60 versions of the dungeons?
Is the set pieces actually equipable at the low levels it says on the gear (36-42ish)?
I have about 500k saved up, would it be worth trying to buy some of the pieces now? if so, what ones?
Thanks!
Gauntlets - level 38
Greaves - 52
Vallant Warriors Chest is 42 (I would assume Stalwart would be equip-able around than as well)
I basically am doing almost the same things as described in this guide and pretty much confirmed that some stats need theorycrafting.
Nice guide for people who start off as GF.
My only concern is that getting the Stalwart set or any set is hard to do for people who can't do Mad Dragon.
Hope to get some feedback.
I have been trying to farm up the helm for the last few days but mad dragon is tough. You don't happen to have extra's your selling do you Rokuthy?
Would this build help me get more threat or is that just me playing wrong?
Farming the hardest dungeon in the game using a bug to do millions of damage per swing.
This build should get you the most threat since it is primarily a function of dps in this game, but regardless you are going to have issues holding aggro in add swarms in T2 dungeons without an assist from singularity due to the current implementation of threat mechanics.
1) Reckless Attacker is a huge dps boost. It doubles our AP and is the main reason we can compete for dps with other classes.
2) Threatening rush - Short Range Charge + Marks all targets around your target fora short time. This ability is invaluable. If im in a group that is really pushing out the damage (better geared than I), many times ill do this to mark everyone around me before unleasing my abilities so i can generate double threat (through Enhanced Mark passive), especially if Enforced threat is still on cooldown.
3) 4 piece Stalwart Bulwark set is our next big jump in DPS and as Rokuthy pointed out makes it so we can block and loose our guard meter and still be able to dish out a ton of damage.
4) Lair of the Mad Dragon - If you dont have a normal group you run with, run other instances. If your doing your job, taking the damage, keeping your healer alive you will get friend invites after quite a few runs. Healers especially take notice when they are not getting hit. Once you get a normal group formed, get them to run the Mad Dragon.
I would save your 500k and try to get the Helmet over any other piece. The Helm of the Stalwart Bulwark is easily the hardest piece to get. You can get the Chest/Gloves/Boots pretty easy from drops or from the Dungeon Delve chest.
PvP is all about burst damage and having higher crit will grant you that burst damage.
1 - We weren't nerfed at all, they simply fixed the Valiant set bonus bug which caused massive damage bugs.
2 - My build and Envy's build are almost identical, there are only minor differences. Holding aggro will come from a combination of how much damage you're putting out, and to be perfectly honest, how good you are. You need to be proactive and also have great reaction time. You need to get on new mobs early, as the longer you wait, the more aggro your cleric is going to build. Once you have more than 5 adds up, your Enforced Threat isn't going to be a guaranteed taunt for you anymore (mob limit), etc. So threat is more than issue with the build, it boils down to how active you are.
3 - Yeah the Stalwart set is incredible, but there ARE other ways to gear up and play. As long as you're focusing on DPS stats, this build will do very well for you. You're still going to need defenses, but keep in mind that most of our gear is going to have defense on it anyways, so it's not something you need to go out of your way to focus on. So while you're waiting for Stalwart, start gearing up with whatever you can get your hands on, and if you have your heart set on Stalwart, start running Mad Dragon and figuring the fight out. Find out what works for you so that if you have to pug the instance, you can quickly explain the fight and then be successful.
I do solo queue on occasion, and I did a couple of mad dragon runs just the other day in hopes of grabbing a helm to give away to a lucky poster in this thread, but I didn't get the drop. I was able to tell my pug group exactly what needed to happen and we were able to one shot each boss through each run without much issue, so it's definitely doable. Get good at the fight, and knock it out during delves (hopefully twice).
4 - For pvp I change up abilities, but I typically run Frontline/bullrush/lunging with fighter's recovery at all times and then whatever other daily I feel like using. Threatening rush always as well.
I have a problem, I ran a 17 14 13 dice roll because I really wanted to get on the tanking business of things. Now that I'm 60 and realizing that the threat generation in this game is all over the place, I saw that a fully defensive/threat building GF just aggros adds just as good as (or even worse) than an offensive GF. I'm thinking of switching to an offensive GF but my initial dice roll kinda keeps me from doing it bec I'm just gonna get 20 25 15 in the end instead of 22 24 16. Am I thinking too much about it or does it really matter, those extra 2 points in STR.
Also what is your take on using a Grand Regent set on this build with crit accessories, a cat and maybe some enchantments here and there? (Dunno if you already went through this but yeah, the thread is already long and i dont have the time to go thru it all sorry)
Include Ability Score Rolling When Respec-ing (Click and Comment to Show Support)
thanks man
Yeah, you're thinking about it too much. A few strength isn't going to end your hopes of doing DPS, hehe. It's ok man. Grand Regent doesn't seem worth it to me right now, I almost have it completed, just need the gloves and then I'll check it out. If you want a T2 set, the Timeless is pretty sweet. I'll give me full thoughts on Regent once I have the 4th piece. It won't be a DPS king or anything but could be viable in the future if they make any changes to threat/meta game.
I'm fairly certain the delve chest will have a higher chance to drop the item the instance is meant to drop (mad dragon is helms and belts I believe? So you'd have a high chance at a class helm or belt). You'd also have the chance of the dragon itself dropping the helm, so I think it's the best bet for grabbing the Stalwart helm.
GF damage wasn't nerfed - at all. Not even a tiny bit. The Valiant set was fixed, that's all.
•Fixed an issue where the Guardian Fighter was able to do significantly more damage than was intended.
????
Just MD Chest.