Guardian Fighter is a Broken useless class

ice060788 · May 2013

I'm a level 60 Guardian Fighter and I have a gear score of around 9.7k. There are soooooooo many thing wrong with this class.

1) I can't hold aggro for anything, and when I do have aggro as soon as I'm hit I lose it! How is that a tank class??
2) I don't do any damage, which is fine since I'm a tank but I can pull aggro so no damage is a problem.
3) In every Epic Dungeon that I have done, they could have easily have don it without me and feels like I'm slowing them down more than anything.
4) A F*ing rouge Tank in my last Epic Dungeon that I just did and they are always on the main boss Tanking him, how the heck does that work?

I've played a tanking class in every MMO game that I have played for the last 10 years and this has to be the most jacked up Tank class that I have ever seen. Clerics and Rouges tank better and are 1000% more useful than any GF. Whenever you go to a epic dungeon and you see a GF, everyone is like mother F*. I am now building a new character, GWF since they can tank better and do much more DPS than GF can. Just sad that this game has such a broken Tanking system. Still love the game and still going to play it, just not as a Tank :mad:

bdoban · May 2013

ice060788 wrote: »

GWF since they can tank better GF can

Oh man no, god no. That is not even remotely true. GWFs are about as effective a tank as 3D Realms was at game development

argan77 · May 2013

First thing people are going to ask is what's your rotation is to gain threat.

I'm not disputing your post, just pointing out what others will want to know. I'm not 60, so I don't have enough experience at that level in this game to agree or disagree.

I do know it's annoying that the mark is lost when we get hit. How quickly are things punching through your guard at your level?

fizzilwizzil · May 2013

My Guardian Fighter is level 44 so far, and the only reason why i'm even bothering with him is because i've already invested a lot of time. Once I get to level 60 i'm not going to touch him anymore. There is just no reason too, the class is literally terrible at everything that it was designed to do.

It's even worse in PvP where any sort of crowd control completely shuts the class down. CC is really powerful in this game because it can't be broken.

frychikn · May 2013

its public knowledge that GF are garbage... on top of that theyre boring.

overd0g · May 2013

I am almost 50 and I have no issues holding aggro so it is a combination of your rotation, feats, and powers. I have even unslotted some of my aggro gaining powers since I dont need them to gain aggro. Now granted it is not easy mode like other games...you really have to work at it but that is the appeal and fun for me.

I am spec'd down the Conquerer tree and that works great for tanking and holding aggro because I have all the necessary powers/feats slotted for increased aggro and I do decent damage.

ice060788 · May 2013

bdoban wrote: »

Oh man no, god no. That is not even remotely true. GWFs are about as effective a tank as 3D Realms was at game development

They can kite 100% better than a GF and they do a lot of DPS. Every Epic Dungeon I've been in with a GWF has done well over 1 million more DPS and they are good at add control.

ice060788 · May 2013

overd0g wrote: »

I am almost 50 and I have no issues holding aggro so it is a combination of your rotation, feats, and powers. I have even unslotted some of my aggro gaining powers since I dont need them to gain aggro. Now granted it is not easy mode like other games...you really have to work at it but that is the appeal and fun for me.

I am spec'd down the Conquerer tree and that works great for tanking and holding aggro because I have all the necessary powers/feats slotted for increased aggro and I do decent damage.

Don't get me wrong I still can hold aggro but it's only on a small few and as soon as a Cleric does hit AOE heal they go to him. Are class is usuless because I just saw a ROUGE yes a ROUGE Tank the same <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> I Tank and they don't take much damage because of dodge, thus making us even more useless because we don't do DPS and clerics can take adds better then us. So we are basically useless once again.

tfangel · May 2013

fizzilwizzil wrote: »

It's even worse in PvP where any sort of crowd control completely shuts the class down. CC is really powerful in this game because it can't be broken.

I'll talk about the other side of that, as a CW, against GW i see a lot of "blocked!" when they are good pvpers. This isn't a slam on anyone else, but they aren't sure to hit and hold. Plus the cc is a lot shorter than against pve, down to a couple of seconds. If a rogue even seems to know i'm around i'm lucky to even get one off, or even to land on them. PvP does seem to also be a team effort, the better people work together, the better you will do. Trying to go one versus one, you only feel the down sides of your class.

To the OP, you should play what you feel you enjoy, it is early really, so classes can change, but do what is fun for you. I'm interested in what new paragon paths will change the class dynamics, if one is a better tank than others.

overd0g · May 2013

You are not meant to hold aggro on everything...I just focus on the boss or the elite mobs that I can and anything else can be handled by the group. The problem with the rogue is if they mess up at all they will get dropped in an instant to major boss attacks where the guardian can soak that ****e up and live. Some boss fights it actually makes sense for the rogue to tank a bit and the tank can gather up the mobs for the AOE attacks.

Just read the forums on builds and rotation and find what you are the most comfortable with and have fun.

ice060788 · May 2013

overd0g wrote: »

You are not meant to hold aggro on everything...I just focus on the boss or the elite mobs that I can and anything else can be handled by the group. The problem with the rogue is if they mess up at all they will get dropped in an instant to major boss attacks where the guardian can soak that ****e up and live. Some boss fights it actually makes sense for the rogue to tank a bit and the tank can gather up the mobs for the AOE attacks.

Just read the forums on builds and rotation and find what you are the most comfortable with and have fun.

The thing I'm trying to say is that you don't need a Tank in this game, thus making us useless. During one of the Epic Dungeons somehow I died and got put way ahead of everyone else and the other 4 people has to fight a boss by them self. Not one person took damage and no one dies. Thus making tanks a third wheel to the party. No one needs a Tank and they don't make the Dungeons any easier for people, they in fact make it harder for the most part. So that's why I'm saying this class is broken and useless, not so much the aggro issue because I do focus on the main boss and elite, but they still don't need us is what I'm saying.

overd0g · May 2013

Well, I completely disagree and I suggest you stop playing the Guardian Fighter and play another class.

frychikn · May 2013

should of known not to play GF after u hit lvl 10 and got the ****tiest tab move ever.

veei · May 2013

Stick it out. Keep in mind that this is week two, again, week two of open beta. Things will change. As far as I know how many people are clearing the final Tiered dungeon? Do they have a GF? Would they say no, you dont need one.

I played a Rogue tank in Rift from day one. We was always looked at as a not needed tank except on a couple of fights. But they fixed that. And now a Rogue is just as viable as a tank and a Warrior or Cleric.

Things will change, just have some patience and give the devs some.................................... SQUIRREL!!

Sorry got distracted.

ice060788 · May 2013

overd0g wrote: »

Well, I completely disagree and I suggest you stop playing the Guardian Fighter and play another class.

That's what I said I was doing, I'm making a GWF. You'll see once you get to 60 and have high enough gear stats to do T2, you will become completely useless in the dungeon.

ice060788 · May 2013

veei wrote: »

Stick it out. Keep in mind that this is week two, again, week two of open beta. Things will change. As far as I know how many people are clearing the final Tiered dungeon? Do they have a GF? Would they say no, you dont need one.

I played a Rogue tank in Rift from day one. We was always looked at as a not needed tank except on a couple of fights. But they fixed that. And now a Rogue is just as viable as a tank and a Warrior or Cleric.

Things will change, just have some patience and give the devs some.................................... SQUIRREL!!

Sorry got distracted.

Ohh no don't get me wrong. That's what I'm doing. I know it's going to get fixed and when it does I have my lvl 60 T2 ready GF ready for more dungeons. I'm just making another toon until that time comes. I know that they will fix it. Just a little frustrated that the GF is the first char that I made and can't use him that much right now is all.

datemper · May 2013

Heads up

GF tanks big hitters/bosses not lowly adds.

Everyone else deals with the adds,you should be doing your job of holding the boss/big hitters attention.

If you have a cleric in group,they are the add magnet,you let the DC collect the adds and the rest of the party take them out while they are all nicely congregating around said DC (friggin fantastic for AOE skills).Adds die quckly this way and the party can resume hitting on the boss,thanks to you holding his undevided attention.

gravityx19 · May 2013

I have no issues holding agro on mass groups of enemies in instances, what is your current trait and power layout? What is your feats and whatnot? There is a lot of options for people that have issues holding agro if you think that is what you need to do.

spyke2009 · May 2013

ice060788 wrote: »

Don't get me wrong I still can hold aggro but it's only on a small few and as soon as a Cleric does hit AOE heal they go to him. Are class is usuless because I just saw a ROUGE yes a ROUGE Tank the same <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> I Tank and they don't take much damage because of dodge, thus making us even more useless because we don't do DPS and clerics can take adds better then us. So we are basically useless once again.

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gravityx19 · May 2013

datemper wrote: »

Heads up

GF tanks big hitters/bosses not lowly adds.

Everyone else deals with the adds,you should be doing your job of holding the boss/big hitters attention.

If you have a cleric in group,they are the add magnet,you let the DC collect the adds and the rest of the party take them out while they are all nicely congregating around said DC (friggin fantastic for AOE skills).Adds die quckly this way and the party can resume hitting on the boss,thanks to you holding his undevided attention.

This is the best response I have seen said time and time again on this forum by a lot of the higher tier GF players. Focus on holding the big baddies in place and let the AoE clear the rest.

ice060788 · May 2013

datemper wrote: »

Heads up

GF tanks big hitters/bosses not lowly adds.

Everyone else deals with the adds,you should be doing your job of holding the boss/big hitters attention.

If you have a cleric in group,they are the add magnet,you let the DC collect the adds and the rest of the party take them out while they are all nicely congregating around said DC (friggin fantastic for AOE skills).Adds die quckly this way and the party can resume hitting on the boss,thanks to you holding his undevided attention.

Yes I understand that, and that is what I do. I'm saying that the GF class isn't the only class that can Tank the main boss/elite. In most MMo's without a Tank you wipe. There is no real use for the GF because he only singe target's Threat but a lot of other classes can do this as well without taking damage. That is why I'm saying the class is useless. Other classes can do the same job better and with much more DPS.

gravityx19 · May 2013

There is no way that a GF will lose agro to any other class on a target they are focusing on period. Again we will ask what is your Power/Feat layout? What paragon tree did you spec into?

veei · May 2013

I have no issues either with threat or mitigation.

Last night in Epic Cloak Tower I had something like 900k damage taken where as the #2 guy was something like 350k. So its pretty obvious I had most of the mobs on me most of the time. And my health never really dropped below 90% and the remaining members of the party did not either. I think I used one health pot. And I used that one on accident.

cruljin · May 2013

ice060788 wrote: »

Yes I understand that, and that is what I do. I'm saying that the GF class isn't the only class that can Tank the main boss/elite. In most MMo's without a Tank you wipe. There is no real use for the GF because he only singe target's Threat but a lot of other classes can do this as well without taking damage. That is why I'm saying the class is useless. Other classes can do the same job better and with much more DPS.

Tell that to some non GF taking two phase spider hits to the face on t2 spider, which I can completely block and hold aggro....

ugibugibugi · May 2013

pretty much as datemper said, that is also the reason why you have spells like knight's valor to mitigate the dmg from the adds that wasnt your highest prior to keep aggro on, hence supporting your team with buffing / mitigating on the side of holding the heavy hitters...

kaz92 · May 2013

I'm a level 48 GF and I must be playing with and against bad players or something because I top damage instances a lot of the time, I hold agro, I kill the most mobs etc, I just don't see how that will change much in the harder dungeons and for PvP I don't really get CC'd because i'm either blocking their attacks, I've used my daily that gives me 10 seconds of cc immune, or people just aren't focusing me because I take weeks to kill.

From what I've played of the GF it seems anything but useless, but I guess I'll see once I hit 60.

veei · May 2013

ugibugibugi wrote: »

pretty much as datemper said, that is also the reason why you have spells like knight's valor to mitigate the dmg from the adds that wasnt your highest prior to keep aggro on, hence supporting your team with buffing / mitigating on the side of holding the heavy hitters...

^^. This.

My basic encounters are Into the Fray, Enforced Threat, and Knights Valor. Sometimes I use Iron Warrior but find if I have a competent Cleric, I never drop very far down in health, so the the benefit of Iron Warrior is questionable.

So what does this give my group?

Into the Fray: Movement speed but most of all temporary HP. I just made 60 so my gear score is only about 8k right now and I have over 33k health, so the temporary HP is pretty decent.

Knights Valor: No need to explain.

gravityx19 · May 2013

Do you run the feat that gives ITF a bonus to damage? If not, even better reason to take it

There are 3 Feat trees that give you a bit of customization to your warrior. I am running in the last tree to give my encounter abilties lower cooldowns as well as give me more CC for PvP. Seems to work out well for keeping threat on PvE mobs also.

koiju · May 2013

ice060788 wrote: »

The thing I'm trying to say is that you don't need a Tank in this game, thus making us useless. *snip*

Then by this logic, the only non-useless class in the game is cleric, and even they are useless if you buy enough potions.

None of the classes are REQUIRED, they bring different options to the table, but you can get by without any of them (except the cleric, unless you don't mind chugging potions like they're water).

The GF does have a number of powerful control options (think of taunting as a form of CC), and a lot of survivability.
You wouldn't expect a single CW to CC the entire encounter all by himself, the GF is the same. He just CC's some and effectively takes them out of the fight (since the GF will take negligible damage form anything less than a boss).
The GF is also better at concentrating mobs into a small ball (good for AoE) unlike the CW, who has a habit of knocking them all over the place!

So my advice would be to stop trying to feel like you are 'needed' and just enjoy playing the game.
Play the GF as a melee range, martial based, control character with high survivability. Your job is to either a: round up weaker mobs into a manageable blob, or b:to keep a bosses AoE effects away from the party (while a TR may be able to 'dodge tank' a boss, he is not as good at controlling the direction and placement of the AoEs!) all the while reducing the overall DPS the party as a whole sustains (thus making the healers job easier).
You don't have to tank everything to do this, every mob that attacks you (as opposed to anyone else) is doing less DPS to the party as a whole, due to your survivability. Thus less HPS output is required of the cleric as a whole.
You'll know you're doing your job right as long as your topping the damage taken chart

If you still really can't enjoy GF, then play another class.

imivo · May 2013

Rokuthy has already proven that GFs are anything but useless. All the information is out there, it just needs to be used and not ignored. Envy is also doing fine, and he's even less tank-y in the traditional sense.

The thing is, people compare the tanking here to the tanking in WoW and WoW clones (Rift, TOR, etc.) where the tank holds aggro on all mobs. This is not how it was in EverQuest, where tanks also only focused on the big mobs and the rest was focused down or crowd controlled. Neverwinter's approach to tanking is better than WoW's because it's less boring and it makes tanks less of a bottleneck. It's also awesome that tanks here are not stuck in the "damage sponge, but hit like wet noodle" role, but can actually do competitive dps while also being able to tank bosses and elite mobs.

GFs only seem "wrong" if you compare them to WoW tanks. But this isn't WoW, so if you shift your expectations (or drop them), you will probably be happier and enjoy the class more.

vaichana · May 2013

Why resurrect yet another GF whine topic?

I start to find all the GF badmouthing going on on the forums and in game rather discomforting. Guardian fighter a "broken, useless class"? Seriously? Why? I never ended up anything but first in damage taken in epic dungeons, and I generally can keep up just fine with other people's damage, when I am not straight first in damage done. I can kill people in 4 seconds in pvp with them hardly having a chance to retaliate at all. I can control the flow of battles and the positioning of enemies in both pve and pvp. Why useless? Because you can't just stand in your 1x1 meter tile and fight for 20 mins straight pummeling on a boss while you tap a Super Glue Incredibruuuu Taunt button every now and then? Please. Get creative and expand past the static tanking mentality.
Check out Rokuthy, Envy or Venore's guardian threads, they are great and full of good advice. Just stop saying that the class is broken or useless, the only thing that could possibly need changing is the removal of the stupid target limits on enforced threat and frontline surge.

Guardian Fighter is a Broken useless class

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