LOL. There you go! Whiners always whine whenever they see the word microtransaction.
Well then, count me amoung the whiners and those who will likely uninstall soon as this there are few things more stupid than paying to be on a "winners list" based largely on how much you paid to be on it. If that appealed to me, I'd go into politics.
Given: There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch (TANSTAAFL). The D&D license isn't free. The Cryptic game engine isn't free. The artists and coders who crafted Neverwinter for the cryptic engine demanded a salary. Somehow some subset (including the degenerate case of all players) of the players needs to cought up enough money to keep the hamsters fed to power the servers. There are a bunch of ways to do this:
Pay2play: The traditional way was by subscription, in 2008 DDO came out with a significant f2p size plus microtransactions to buy up the rest of the game. I was very happy playing this way, especially compared to later when pay2win was added.
Pay2win: This can vary from "pay to be adequate" (DDO has been using this for quite some time) that gives new players advatages to catch up to veteran players, to the pure pay2win that NWO is using where the best stuff is behind paywalls.
Pay2BeCool: Doesn't seem as popular as you would expect. Included in plenty of games (including NWO, see the differences in horse costs), but pay2play and pay2win seem keep bringing in way more money.
While I'm wildly disappointed with the pay2win structure (but not surprised: the foundry makes pay2play nearly impossible), my main problem is the open-ended structure to it. With NWO, there seems to be a steady case of "suprise! pay up!" mugging where you are expected to suddenly pay. While we all know that the $160 "top item" is going to be quickly obsoleted, we don't know the cost of the next item. We know the cost to respec is $6, but we don't know how quickly nerfs, buffs, and new paragon paths will be established and require respecs.
Examples:
pay2play: WoW has a published subscription price. DDO and LOTRO have complete price lists for each pack/expansion module (plus subscription prices). Guildwars[2] has the price on the box.
pay2win: WoW seems like a no-show (except for the announcement above). DDO has 32 point builds for sale (which was a serious grind when announced), stat tomes (which as raid gear should be a no no), plenty of ways to level faster (and the biggest require a subscription - which shows how loyal Turbine is to those who bought the entire game a la carte), and plenty of pay2lose vendor trash for sale. LOTRO has a load of unlocks which make a $15 single months subscription nearly mandatory, then expect to buy certain virtues per character unless you want to grind forever. NWO appears to have plenty of pay2win from the start, with $200 entry fee (founder pack) and willing to sell plenty of things at such prices.
My point is that some games I know what the cost is: look at WoW's subscription cost. GW2 has the price listed on the box (or Steam download). Turbine games take a little while to figure out (especially LOTRO), but you can figure it out before you have to pay anything. NWO has a completely open price structure. How much win do you want and how much will you pay for it? How much lack of fail do you want, and how much are you willing to pay for it. That's what gets me: if I knew the costs going in I would be far more likely to stay with the game, as it is it I expect to uninstall it (without PWE getting a dime).
Finally, I should point out that my biggest beef (by far) is the open ended nature of NWO's pay2win model. By my definition I've paid2win (for rather small amounts of "pay" for somewhat small amounts of "win") LOTRO (I've bought the one month subscription specificly to give my characters a load of cash-only perks) and was happy doing so. If Turbine came around and threatened my characters with a major round of nerfing unless I paid up, I would be less happy to do so. As far as I can see, I can't imagine a case where the zen pay2win store had any guarantees that a buying a win today lets you win tommorow (imagine a game that has pvp without rebalancing left and right). I would be impressed if PWE managed to show that you need only pay a certain ammount to maintain certain "tiers of win", but I'm not holding my breath.
So many whiners who have no clue. WHY OW WHY would you ever compalin? did someone put a gun to your head and forced you to buy anything from the store? Why would you complain about expensive mounts and companions if you do not even need to get near them. They are supposed to be exclusive and expensive but more of a luxury.. why the **** would you even say thats unfair? its all cosmetic stuff for a price that people who love cosmetic stuff are willing to pay.. if you dont want to pay that.. dont. Easy as that.
In real life.. do you cry about the economy selling houses for 10 million dollars because you cant buy them? because those people have a larger house then you because they are willing to pay alot?
I sure hope you don't .. else you are quite the bad case..
but if you dont do it in real life.. why would you complain about there being a 40 dollar mount, a 30 dollar companion etc. etc... you dont need to buy it, you are not forced to look at it. So why would you even concern yourself the slightest..
just say " **** those cashshopplayers.. i will prove them wrong and be the greatest player without paying a single dime", which is simply possible as this game isnt even close to pay-to-win anyway if you look at the system objectively which is impossible..
just my opinion and rant while being aggrevated by the posts on the latest news
I know its the internet so we should all ignore those kinds of people, but as a graduate at a indie game design school i hate good games being punched into the ground by invalid arguments.
There are quite alot of problems with this game .. the zenshop being 0% of the problems. The only thing making the zenshop a problem is the players..
Good games arent punched into the ground by invalid arguments, they are punched into the ground by very valid attrition of their users when other games are perfectly willing to charge reasonable rates for convenience, and dont monetize every single aspect of their game.
The players dont make the zen shop the problem, other MMOs who charge half of what this one charges make the zen shop the problem, because they can price this game out of the market. Of course when players bring this up, they get called whiners and not taken seriously, then the game you love to pay to play every single aspect of dies off because no one wants to discuss the real issue, preferring name calling and dismissal over actual debate.
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kyouapple24Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
do you want this super amazing weapon enchant, that will give you a chance to deal 30% extra damage with every attack/ skills?
do you want this super incredible weapon enchant that gives you dots. and extra attack, and lower enemy's defenses?
do you want this super amazing wonderful armor enchant that gives you a 30% chance to give a 2s aoe stun when you receive critical damage?
yes you do! it would be an amazing, if not incredible. almost unfair advantage in pve. or pvp!
so how do you obtain it? very simple!
you can either....
obtain 64 shards of said enchantment. find about TWO HUNDRED GAZILLION AD diamonds to pay for the no-break chance ward as you fuse it.
or obtain 64.000.000 shards of said enchantment. then try to fuse said shards to gain the enchantment. with 1% success rate
or you can spend $160 worth of wards on the zen store. and 64 shards. and VOILA! instant OP-ness.
also. you know how if you craft an item with 100% quality. you get +20% stats from said created item?
how do you get it?
the usual. you can spend GAZILLION OF AD diamonds to buy the booster to get the blue assets from booster box. from zen shop.
or... you know, buy zen.
or do you want bag? we got 4 bag slots after all. what? you want to buy it with AD? good luck. might need months. but you can get em.
if this game just put "expensive premium items" on the cash shop. but didnt force us to buy ANY of it. and purely cosmetic. im sure people will still complain. but not THIS much complaints.
its that this game put incredibly important, and makes-your-game-easier-if-not-borderline-cheating stuff that you can buy with zen on the cash shop. then put a ridiculously expensive price tag on top of it. thats why people complains.
oh and did you know you can get from lvl 4 (after tutorial) to 60 without even lvling? you just need to buy tons of zen with REAL MMONEY. and then you can use it to get to lvl 60 without even trying.
obtain 64 shards of said enchantment. find about TWO HUNDRED GAZILLION AD diamonds to pay for the no-break chance ward as you fuse it.
Glad you did the math yourself instead of spouting false stats that others are spouting. You know that you can get your wards for free with the 7 day Celestial Box right? And if you fail you typically lose 1 enchant not all 4. So god forbid you have to decide between spending extra and have a sure thing or not and rolling the dice. GIMME MY EPICS FOR FREE!!!
Support the game, grind the game, or don't play at all.
@kimmurieloblodra:
I called you a r-tard because you called those who play WoW next-gen r-tard, not because you don't play WoW. In fact, I stopped playing WoW more than 6 months ago but I am not a r-tard because I don't call those who still play it r-tard. If you call people names do expect they will do the same to you.
@yawumpus:
I agree LOTRO and DDO are less pay to win according to your definition of "winning". However, fixing the prices of all items didn't seem to generate enough profits for Turbine. Didn't they also introduce the more infamous pay to win lockboxes into the games later as their profits fizzle? Well, at least they made the keys lootable from mobs although at a low droprate.
Glad you did the math yourself instead of spouting false stats that others are spouting. You know that you can get your wards for free with the 7 day Celestial Box right? And if you fail you typically lose 1 enchant not all 4. So god forbid you have to decide between spending extra and have a sure thing or not and rolling the dice. GIMME MY EPICS FOR FREE!!!
Support the game, grind the game, or don't play at all.
That sounds fine and dandy to say when the game is up and running, but when most of the players get bored in a few months and choose option 3. dont play at all, all of the players who chose option 1 are going to be the ones complaining about the situation. The amount of grind is unreasonable compared to the high amount of time one can save by paying when its all added up, however, when other games dont charge half as much for that level of convenience, we can see how this equation solves out. Just the epic stuff alone being 160 dollars is the same price for 16 months of playing many other MMOs - simply to have one toon in epic digs.
GIMME MY EPICS FOR FREE!!! is not the only other option. Doing some market research and pricing them competitively will do just nicely. The reason there are so many complainers about this is because the zen store is overpriced compared to other MMOs - plain and simple.
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kyouapple24Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Glad you did the math yourself instead of spouting false stats that others are spouting. You know that you can get your wards for free with the 7 day Celestial Box right? And if you fail you typically lose 1 enchant not all 4. So god forbid you have to decide between spending extra and have a sure thing or not and rolling the dice. GIMME MY EPICS FOR FREE!!!
Support the game, grind the game, or don't play at all.
you want to do math? let's do math
for every 7 days, you get 1 ward. that assuming you never, ever forget to log in everyday to get the celestial mark.
you need 64 shards. also means you need 16 tries. meaning you need 16 wards
so yes, you can get the enchantment. for free. by using celestial mark. provided you play every single day for 116 days. for one enchant
or you can try fusing them without. and just lose 1 shard. with 1% chance
if we're using "math" since you seem to loooove math and "real" stats. you need 100 tries to get 1 right.
meaning you need 101 shards for a try. meaning you need 1616 shards to get the enchantment.
or you can just spend $160 and get it instantly
how's that for math and real stats like what others are not spouting?
support the game (pay thousands of dollars), grind the game (every single day for 3-4-12 months, and i mean every single day), or dont play at all.
So many whiners who have no clue. WHY OW WHY would you ever compalin? did someone put a gun to your head and forced you to buy anything from the store? Why would you complain about expensive mounts and companions if you do not even need to get near them. They are supposed to be exclusive and expensive but more of a luxury.. why the **** would you even say thats unfair? its all cosmetic stuff for a price that people who love cosmetic stuff are willing to pay.. if you dont want to pay that.. dont. Easy as that.
In real life.. do you cry about the economy selling houses for 10 million dollars because you cant buy them? because those people have a larger house then you because they are willing to pay alot?
I sure hope you don't .. else you are quite the bad case..
but if you dont do it in real life.. why would you complain about there being a 40 dollar mount, a 30 dollar companion etc. etc... you dont need to buy it, you are not forced to look at it. So why would you even concern yourself the slightest..
just say " **** those cashshopplayers.. i will prove them wrong and be the greatest player without paying a single dime", which is simply possible as this game isnt even close to pay-to-win anyway if you look at the system objectively which is impossible..
just my opinion and rant while being aggrevated by the posts on the latest news
I know its the internet so we should all ignore those kinds of people, but as a graduate at a indie game design school i hate good games being punched into the ground by invalid arguments.
There are quite alot of problems with this game .. the zenshop being 0% of the problems. The only thing making the zenshop a problem is the players..
Please, If this is your attitude, stay out of the game industry, you're just compounding the growing problem of a COMPLETE disconnect between publishers, developers and the gaming community, other games with a F2P model, have set higher standards, and this does not meet them by a long shot DESPITE being a fantastic game, in many ways it's a WASTE of the talent of Cryptic and all because of bad monetization. Getting real sick of people trying to sell things, that are incorporeal, for stupid amounts of money without FIRST looking at MICRO-transaction 101 and realizing
1: DONT SELL POWER.
2: DON'T SELL POWER....
3: DON'T....SELL...POWER..........
4: MICRO is in the name for a reason
and lastly
5: DON'T SELL POWER!!!!!!!!!
Even if it doesn't break the game, it's disgusting to see and really lowers the game in terms of standards.
Your attitude to your potential consumer base in your alleged profession concerns me. Right now, after reading what you just wrote, I wouldn't want to purchase anything from you or that you had a part in creating. Simply on a matter of principle, that being that I don't like buying from people that see me as a walking wallet waiting to be gouged.
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jorealMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
That sounds fine and dandy to say when the game is up and running, but when most of the players get bored in a few months and choose option 3. dont play at all, all of the players who chose option 1 are going to be the ones complaining about the situation. The amount of grind is unreasonable compared to the high amount of time one can save by paying when its all added up, however, when other games dont charge half as much for that level of convenience, we can see how this equation solves out. Just the epic stuff alone being 160 dollars is the same price for 16 months of playing many other MMOs - simply to have one toon in epic digs.
GIMME MY EPICS FOR FREE!!! is not the only other option. Doing some market research and pricing them competitively will do just nicely. The reason there are so many complainers about this is because the zen store is overpriced compared to other MMOs - plain and simple.
If you don't like the grind of the game then why are you playing it? No one is handcuffing you to your chair and saying this is the only game to play. I enjoy the game, I enjoy grinding in the game, so I play it. Which is also the reason I gave them $200 for it as well, because I want them to keep making the game.
That sounds fine and dandy to say when the game is up and running, but when most of the players get bored in a few months and choose option 3. dont play at all, all of the players who chose option 1 are going to be the ones complaining about the situation. The amount of grind is unreasonable compared to the high amount of time one can save by paying when its all added up, however, when other games dont charge half as much for that level of convenience, we can see how this equation solves out. Just the epic stuff alone being 160 dollars is the same price for 16 months of playing many other MMOs - simply to have one toon in epic digs.
GIMME MY EPICS FOR FREE!!! is not the only other option. Doing some market research and pricing them competitively will do just nicely. The reason there are so many complainers about this is because the zen store is overpriced compared to other MMOs - plain and simple.
First, don't worry about the grind will bore players out in a few months. The grind in the 8 year old Perfect World Online is much worse but the game is still going and going and going... Want more examples of long lasting strictly cash shop supported heavy grinding games? What about Conquer and MapleStory? Both of them are older than WoW. Now, want some example of short-lived subscription based games? Well, SWTOR, TSW, Tera, LOTRO, DDO, Aion, Tabula Rasa, APB, LEGO Universe, ok, ok, too many to mention...
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jorealMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
for every 7 days, you get 1 ward. that assuming you never, ever forget to log in everyday to get the celestial mark.
you need 64 shards. also means you need 16 tries. meaning you need 16 wards
so yes, you can get the enchantment. for free. by using celestial mark. provided you play every single day for 116 days. for one enchant
or you can try fusing them without. and just lose 1 shard. with 1% chance
if we're using "math" since you seem to loooove math and "real" stats. you need 100 tries to get 1 right.
meaning you need 101 shards for a try. meaning you need 1616 shards to get the enchantment.
or you can just spend $160 and get it instantly
how's that for math and real stats like what others are not spouting?
support the game (pay thousands of dollars), grind the game (every single day for 3-4-12 months, and i mean every single day), or dont play at all.
Except you don't earn any AD in the WHOLE time you are playing? Or is it that you can't get past this idea that your 25k AD that you are earning is only like $0.65 worth of zen at the end of the day. Which is actually increasing precipitously.
If you couldn't get Zen any other way than to pay for it I would potentially agree with you, but just because you CAN buy it doesn't mean you have too or that anyone would. It is there for convenience sake not necessity. So yeah imagine that, you have to play the game, a lot in order to get the best enchants in the game. Who would have imagined.
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kyouapple24Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
$160 worth of zen needed
you earn $0.65 worth per day
how many days are needed?
you do the "math"
also, i wont complain if the success rate is 25%. or even 10%
but 1% is just basically telling us to "buy this **** or you dont get it"
its like giving us 1 grain of rice per day, free, you can get your whole meal after 106 days.
or you can pay $500 and get your plate of steak today
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stonedbillMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Since the other thread was closed without reason, continue the discussion here.
Smoke@stonedbill - Mindflayer - 60 Rogue
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baburmisMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
no, we complain because this system was supposed to be based around micro, not macro-transactions.
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jorealMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
no, we complain because this system was supposed to be based around micro, not macro-transactions.
$10 is micro. I can't fill my gas tank with that kind of money so it much not be that much money.
If you can't afford to pay for the item then grind them and earn them. You have choices people just don't want to pick between them. The reality is the cheaper the items the fast the game is going to get boring and people will move on. If you don't like the game or plan on playing it for a long time then the prices are irrelevant. If you do plan on playing it for a long time then the prices are just fine.
Each person values money differently, $200 to me is nothing really, $200 to some people is the difference between paying and not paying rent. The difference is I can afford to spend $200 on a game the other person can't. That doesn't make me better or them worse, but it does make it such that price seem fair to me and not to others. At least you CAN get the stuff in the shop at all without paying for it if you want too.
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stonedbillMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
$10 is micro. I can't fill my gas tank with that kind of money so it much not be that much money.
If you can't afford to pay for the item then grind them and earn them. You have choices people just don't want to pick between them. The reality is the cheaper the items the fast the game is going to get boring and people will move on. If you don't like the game or plan on playing it for a long time then the prices are irrelevant. If you do plan on playing it for a long time then the prices are just fine.
Each person values money differently, $200 to me is nothing really, $200 to some people is the difference between paying and not paying rent. The difference is I can afford to spend $200 on a game the other person can't. That doesn't make me better or them worse, but it does make it such that price seem fair to me and not to others. At least you CAN get the stuff in the shop at all without paying for it if you want too.
I have a hamburger for sale for $20. It's just like any other hamburger, but you have the money to blow so buy it. I'll give paypal details in a PM.
I have a hamburger for sale for $20. It's just like any other hamburger, but you have the money to blow so buy it. I'll give paypal details in a PM.
If I wanted to buy your hamburger then I would buy your hamburger. That doesn't mean I have to buy your hamburger though. Just like if you don't like the prices in this game, doesn't mean you have to buy them or even play it. Every game makes up its own economic model. You don't get to decide what they charge, but you get to decide what you buy.
Perhaps this isn't the game for you. I know the world might end if that is the case, but it might just be true.
there nothing in there make it p2w half the stuff in the cash shop are ugly. i just bought character slots and dye for my armor i like and golem for my wizard
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stonedbillMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If I wanted to buy your hamburger then I would buy your hamburger. That doesn't mean I have to buy your hamburger though. Just like if you don't like the prices in this game, doesn't mean you have to buy them or even play it. Every game makes up its own economic model. You don't get to decide what they charge, but you get to decide what you buy.
Perhaps this isn't the game for you. I know the world might end if that is the case, but it might just be true.
Oh i've spent money on the game thankyou very much but unlike you, i actually value my money and don't treat it as a waste. To have good money management skills one of the first rules is to know a good deal and a bad deal, and so far, most of the products in the Zen store are bad deals. I can admit I've bought the guardian pack (pretty good deal imo) one bag (which was pretty much forced on me from how full I was getting ALWAYS) and several keys (those are decently priced) but everything else is either overpriced, or made to win (enchantments)
Smoke@stonedbill - Mindflayer - 60 Rogue
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hsinrogMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I admittedly have spent money on the cash shop. I bought a couple of character slots, some keys, and 2 bags.
However, I have to admit the cash shop prices to me are fairly high for many things, especially items that are bound to a single character.
If bag prices were about half of what they are now, I would probably outfit all of my alts with bags too. But at $10 a pop it seems to prohibitive to me, and I'll make due with the 3 bags you get from questing on my other toons.
Considering I got an account wide 110% speed mount with my Founder pack for all of my characters and spent about $60 for it. Makes it seem rather ridiculous to spend $40 for a mount for only 1 character. Especially a mount that is not any better than the mount I have, just cosmetically different.
I have to admit the keys seem to be priced just fine to me. 1250 Zen for 10 keys, is reasonable.
None of the companions seem worth spending $40 on, though of course the L15 limitation on a lot of the companions might make it more of an incentive to spend that kind of money for other people. I personally, would never spend that much, no matter how 'cool' the companion looks. If those custom purple companions were $15-20 a piece, I would probably buy all of them.
The reality is that they are going to make money off of people outfitting initial characters, and those with enough disposable income that the prices don't seen that unreasonable.
However, they would at least be getting a lot -more- of my money and probably other people's money if the prices were lower on many of the character specific items.
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kyouapple24Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
$200 for me is not really a problem, $30 for me is not really a problem. hell i spent tons of money in other games before. including about $300 for swtor's crazy packs and opening crazy booster packs on other games
why? because theyre priced about $3-$5 per packs. it started small. and goes a little bit crazier later on. and before you know it, you spend alot more than you needed, or wanted to spend in the first place
but when i read $40 for a mount... i'd rather buy the crappy, buggy new dead island game.
when i read i need $160 for an enchantment. i'd rather buy 4 new games
when i made the math that i need $320 for armor + weapon enchant, and another ridiculous amount of $$$$$$ in this game. i'd rather buy an ipad/ android tablet/ a game console/ a new graphic card/ other ****
and just like the poster above me said. if the bag priced as half, $5. i'd probably buy 6 of them, 2 for every character i have. or just 3 for each of my level 60's character
but when i looked at $10 bag price. i wont even buy a single bag.
if the mount was priced $25 like wow's bling horse/ other mounts (which was heavily critized) i'd buy 3-4 of em
but when the mount is priced at $40. i'd say screw it. i wont buy a single mount. ever. unless its a 100ft firebreathing glowing dragon with 400% move speed
$10 is micro. I can't fill my gas tank with that kind of money so it much not be that much money.
If you can't afford to pay for the item then grind them and earn them. You have choices people just don't want to pick between them. The reality is the cheaper the items the fast the game is going to get boring and people will move on. If you don't like the game or plan on playing it for a long time then the prices are irrelevant. If you do plan on playing it for a long time then the prices are just fine.
Each person values money differently, $200 to me is nothing really, $200 to some people is the difference between paying and not paying rent. The difference is I can afford to spend $200 on a game the other person can't. That doesn't make me better or them worse, but it does make it such that price seem fair to me and not to others. At least you CAN get the stuff in the shop at all without paying for it if you want too.
so what your saying is.. your willing to pay 10$ a qt. 40$ a gal for gas?
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sean99999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
It comes down to one of these two beliefs. Those in the first, tend to bash a lot more.
- The buyer is purchasing an item that doesn't exist.
If you don't like the grind of the game then why are you playing it? No one is handcuffing you to your chair and saying this is the only game to play. I enjoy the game, I enjoy grinding in the game, so I play it. Which is also the reason I gave them $200 for it as well, because I want them to keep making the game.
Welcome to the grey area, where customers provide feedback and make entertainment decisions based on research, rather than just living in a binary yes or no universe. When the game folds due to being priced out of the market by other MMOs, I will be the one explaining to you that no one handcuffed you to a chair and made you spend tall cash supporting a now dead game by paying money into the system right before MMOs that charge 1/4 the price absconded with all its players.
Welcome to the tin-foil hat area of baseless speculation!
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Welcome to the tin-foil hat area of baseless speculation!
Yeah, because how supply and demand works is so baseless. This is the kind of stuff people post when someone provides feedback which cannot be refuted. This game charges ~160 dollars to epic one toon out. This is 16 months of sub fees in most MMOs. ~10 months in many others.
Yeah, because how supply and demand works is so baseless. This is the kind of stuff people post when someone provides feedback which cannot be refuted.
You said the game is folding and you think MY feedback is baseless? I think you need to recheck the definitions of "baseless" and "refuted."
This game charges ~160 dollars to epic one toon out. This is 16 months of sub fees in most MMOs. ~10 months in many others.
As has been pointed out repeatedly, the game offers you the opportunity to pay for enchantments. They are in no way required, nor is that the only path.
And none of that leads to the conclusion that the game is folding.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
You said the game is folding and you think MY feedback is baseless? I think you need to recheck the definitions of "baseless" and "refuted."
I think you need to stop trolling people who want prices reduced. Youll be thanking us later.
And I didnt say the game is folding this instant. It is likely to happen in this highly competitive F2P market sooner than later however if they try to charge 4x+ what other MMOs charge.
As has been pointed out repeatedly, the game offers you the opportunity to pay for enchantments. They are in no way required, nor is that the only path.
And an insane 1616 shard average grind for those who dont pay, per epic toon. WHen I subject the justification of "it can be had free" to reductio ad absurdum analysis, we find that the grind level is completely absurd to merrit that justification. Combine that with the way economics work, it isnt hard to see how this game will be priced out of the market soon after the shiny new game smell wears off.
Comments
Well then, count me amoung the whiners and those who will likely uninstall soon as this there are few things more stupid than paying to be on a "winners list" based largely on how much you paid to be on it. If that appealed to me, I'd go into politics.
Given: There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch (TANSTAAFL). The D&D license isn't free. The Cryptic game engine isn't free. The artists and coders who crafted Neverwinter for the cryptic engine demanded a salary. Somehow some subset (including the degenerate case of all players) of the players needs to cought up enough money to keep the hamsters fed to power the servers. There are a bunch of ways to do this:
Pay2play: The traditional way was by subscription, in 2008 DDO came out with a significant f2p size plus microtransactions to buy up the rest of the game. I was very happy playing this way, especially compared to later when pay2win was added.
Pay2win: This can vary from "pay to be adequate" (DDO has been using this for quite some time) that gives new players advatages to catch up to veteran players, to the pure pay2win that NWO is using where the best stuff is behind paywalls.
Pay2BeCool: Doesn't seem as popular as you would expect. Included in plenty of games (including NWO, see the differences in horse costs), but pay2play and pay2win seem keep bringing in way more money.
While I'm wildly disappointed with the pay2win structure (but not surprised: the foundry makes pay2play nearly impossible), my main problem is the open-ended structure to it. With NWO, there seems to be a steady case of "suprise! pay up!" mugging where you are expected to suddenly pay. While we all know that the $160 "top item" is going to be quickly obsoleted, we don't know the cost of the next item. We know the cost to respec is $6, but we don't know how quickly nerfs, buffs, and new paragon paths will be established and require respecs.
Examples:
pay2play: WoW has a published subscription price. DDO and LOTRO have complete price lists for each pack/expansion module (plus subscription prices). Guildwars[2] has the price on the box.
pay2win: WoW seems like a no-show (except for the announcement above). DDO has 32 point builds for sale (which was a serious grind when announced), stat tomes (which as raid gear should be a no no), plenty of ways to level faster (and the biggest require a subscription - which shows how loyal Turbine is to those who bought the entire game a la carte), and plenty of pay2lose vendor trash for sale. LOTRO has a load of unlocks which make a $15 single months subscription nearly mandatory, then expect to buy certain virtues per character unless you want to grind forever. NWO appears to have plenty of pay2win from the start, with $200 entry fee (founder pack) and willing to sell plenty of things at such prices.
My point is that some games I know what the cost is: look at WoW's subscription cost. GW2 has the price listed on the box (or Steam download). Turbine games take a little while to figure out (especially LOTRO), but you can figure it out before you have to pay anything. NWO has a completely open price structure. How much win do you want and how much will you pay for it? How much lack of fail do you want, and how much are you willing to pay for it. That's what gets me: if I knew the costs going in I would be far more likely to stay with the game, as it is it I expect to uninstall it (without PWE getting a dime).
Finally, I should point out that my biggest beef (by far) is the open ended nature of NWO's pay2win model. By my definition I've paid2win (for rather small amounts of "pay" for somewhat small amounts of "win") LOTRO (I've bought the one month subscription specificly to give my characters a load of cash-only perks) and was happy doing so. If Turbine came around and threatened my characters with a major round of nerfing unless I paid up, I would be less happy to do so. As far as I can see, I can't imagine a case where the zen pay2win store had any guarantees that a buying a win today lets you win tommorow (imagine a game that has pvp without rebalancing left and right). I would be impressed if PWE managed to show that you need only pay a certain ammount to maintain certain "tiers of win", but I'm not holding my breath.
Good games arent punched into the ground by invalid arguments, they are punched into the ground by very valid attrition of their users when other games are perfectly willing to charge reasonable rates for convenience, and dont monetize every single aspect of their game.
The players dont make the zen shop the problem, other MMOs who charge half of what this one charges make the zen shop the problem, because they can price this game out of the market. Of course when players bring this up, they get called whiners and not taken seriously, then the game you love to pay to play every single aspect of dies off because no one wants to discuss the real issue, preferring name calling and dismissal over actual debate.
do you want this super incredible weapon enchant that gives you dots. and extra attack, and lower enemy's defenses?
do you want this super amazing wonderful armor enchant that gives you a 30% chance to give a 2s aoe stun when you receive critical damage?
yes you do! it would be an amazing, if not incredible. almost unfair advantage in pve. or pvp!
so how do you obtain it? very simple!
you can either....
obtain 64 shards of said enchantment. find about TWO HUNDRED GAZILLION AD diamonds to pay for the no-break chance ward as you fuse it.
or obtain 64.000.000 shards of said enchantment. then try to fuse said shards to gain the enchantment. with 1% success rate
or you can spend $160 worth of wards on the zen store. and 64 shards. and VOILA! instant OP-ness.
also. you know how if you craft an item with 100% quality. you get +20% stats from said created item?
how do you get it?
the usual. you can spend GAZILLION OF AD diamonds to buy the booster to get the blue assets from booster box. from zen shop.
or... you know, buy zen.
or do you want bag? we got 4 bag slots after all. what? you want to buy it with AD? good luck. might need months. but you can get em.
if this game just put "expensive premium items" on the cash shop. but didnt force us to buy ANY of it. and purely cosmetic. im sure people will still complain. but not THIS much complaints.
its that this game put incredibly important, and makes-your-game-easier-if-not-borderline-cheating stuff that you can buy with zen on the cash shop. then put a ridiculously expensive price tag on top of it. thats why people complains.
oh and did you know you can get from lvl 4 (after tutorial) to 60 without even lvling? you just need to buy tons of zen with REAL MMONEY. and then you can use it to get to lvl 60 without even trying.
So I'm a no-no because I don't play WoW ? ....... Yeah that makes sense
"WHAT?!??!?!? You don't follow every single title that blizzard puts out every 3 months?!@?!?!?!?!?? You must be a no-no "
Glad you did the math yourself instead of spouting false stats that others are spouting. You know that you can get your wards for free with the 7 day Celestial Box right? And if you fail you typically lose 1 enchant not all 4. So god forbid you have to decide between spending extra and have a sure thing or not and rolling the dice. GIMME MY EPICS FOR FREE!!!
Support the game, grind the game, or don't play at all.
I called you a r-tard because you called those who play WoW next-gen r-tard, not because you don't play WoW. In fact, I stopped playing WoW more than 6 months ago but I am not a r-tard because I don't call those who still play it r-tard. If you call people names do expect they will do the same to you.
@yawumpus:
I agree LOTRO and DDO are less pay to win according to your definition of "winning". However, fixing the prices of all items didn't seem to generate enough profits for Turbine. Didn't they also introduce the more infamous pay to win lockboxes into the games later as their profits fizzle? Well, at least they made the keys lootable from mobs although at a low droprate.
That sounds fine and dandy to say when the game is up and running, but when most of the players get bored in a few months and choose option 3. dont play at all, all of the players who chose option 1 are going to be the ones complaining about the situation. The amount of grind is unreasonable compared to the high amount of time one can save by paying when its all added up, however, when other games dont charge half as much for that level of convenience, we can see how this equation solves out. Just the epic stuff alone being 160 dollars is the same price for 16 months of playing many other MMOs - simply to have one toon in epic digs.
GIMME MY EPICS FOR FREE!!! is not the only other option. Doing some market research and pricing them competitively will do just nicely. The reason there are so many complainers about this is because the zen store is overpriced compared to other MMOs - plain and simple.
you want to do math? let's do math
for every 7 days, you get 1 ward. that assuming you never, ever forget to log in everyday to get the celestial mark.
you need 64 shards. also means you need 16 tries. meaning you need 16 wards
so yes, you can get the enchantment. for free. by using celestial mark. provided you play every single day for 116 days. for one enchant
or you can try fusing them without. and just lose 1 shard. with 1% chance
if we're using "math" since you seem to loooove math and "real" stats. you need 100 tries to get 1 right.
meaning you need 101 shards for a try. meaning you need 1616 shards to get the enchantment.
or you can just spend $160 and get it instantly
how's that for math and real stats like what others are not spouting?
support the game (pay thousands of dollars), grind the game (every single day for 3-4-12 months, and i mean every single day), or dont play at all.
Please, If this is your attitude, stay out of the game industry, you're just compounding the growing problem of a COMPLETE disconnect between publishers, developers and the gaming community, other games with a F2P model, have set higher standards, and this does not meet them by a long shot DESPITE being a fantastic game, in many ways it's a WASTE of the talent of Cryptic and all because of bad monetization. Getting real sick of people trying to sell things, that are incorporeal, for stupid amounts of money without FIRST looking at MICRO-transaction 101 and realizing
1: DONT SELL POWER.
2: DON'T SELL POWER....
3: DON'T....SELL...POWER..........
4: MICRO is in the name for a reason
and lastly
5: DON'T SELL POWER!!!!!!!!!
Even if it doesn't break the game, it's disgusting to see and really lowers the game in terms of standards.
Your attitude to your potential consumer base in your alleged profession concerns me. Right now, after reading what you just wrote, I wouldn't want to purchase anything from you or that you had a part in creating. Simply on a matter of principle, that being that I don't like buying from people that see me as a walking wallet waiting to be gouged.
If you don't like the grind of the game then why are you playing it? No one is handcuffing you to your chair and saying this is the only game to play. I enjoy the game, I enjoy grinding in the game, so I play it. Which is also the reason I gave them $200 for it as well, because I want them to keep making the game.
First, don't worry about the grind will bore players out in a few months. The grind in the 8 year old Perfect World Online is much worse but the game is still going and going and going... Want more examples of long lasting strictly cash shop supported heavy grinding games? What about Conquer and MapleStory? Both of them are older than WoW. Now, want some example of short-lived subscription based games? Well, SWTOR, TSW, Tera, LOTRO, DDO, Aion, Tabula Rasa, APB, LEGO Universe, ok, ok, too many to mention...
Except you don't earn any AD in the WHOLE time you are playing? Or is it that you can't get past this idea that your 25k AD that you are earning is only like $0.65 worth of zen at the end of the day. Which is actually increasing precipitously.
If you couldn't get Zen any other way than to pay for it I would potentially agree with you, but just because you CAN buy it doesn't mean you have too or that anyone would. It is there for convenience sake not necessity. So yeah imagine that, you have to play the game, a lot in order to get the best enchants in the game. Who would have imagined.
you earn $0.65 worth per day
how many days are needed?
you do the "math"
also, i wont complain if the success rate is 25%. or even 10%
but 1% is just basically telling us to "buy this **** or you dont get it"
its like giving us 1 grain of rice per day, free, you can get your whole meal after 106 days.
or you can pay $500 and get your plate of steak today
Smoke@stonedbill - Mindflayer - 60 Rogue
$10 is micro. I can't fill my gas tank with that kind of money so it much not be that much money.
If you can't afford to pay for the item then grind them and earn them. You have choices people just don't want to pick between them. The reality is the cheaper the items the fast the game is going to get boring and people will move on. If you don't like the game or plan on playing it for a long time then the prices are irrelevant. If you do plan on playing it for a long time then the prices are just fine.
Each person values money differently, $200 to me is nothing really, $200 to some people is the difference between paying and not paying rent. The difference is I can afford to spend $200 on a game the other person can't. That doesn't make me better or them worse, but it does make it such that price seem fair to me and not to others. At least you CAN get the stuff in the shop at all without paying for it if you want too.
I have a hamburger for sale for $20. It's just like any other hamburger, but you have the money to blow so buy it. I'll give paypal details in a PM.
Smoke@stonedbill - Mindflayer - 60 Rogue
I'll gladly pay you tomorrow for a hamburger today..... *runs away*
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If I wanted to buy your hamburger then I would buy your hamburger. That doesn't mean I have to buy your hamburger though. Just like if you don't like the prices in this game, doesn't mean you have to buy them or even play it. Every game makes up its own economic model. You don't get to decide what they charge, but you get to decide what you buy.
Perhaps this isn't the game for you. I know the world might end if that is the case, but it might just be true.
Oh i've spent money on the game thankyou very much but unlike you, i actually value my money and don't treat it as a waste. To have good money management skills one of the first rules is to know a good deal and a bad deal, and so far, most of the products in the Zen store are bad deals. I can admit I've bought the guardian pack (pretty good deal imo) one bag (which was pretty much forced on me from how full I was getting ALWAYS) and several keys (those are decently priced) but everything else is either overpriced, or made to win (enchantments)
Smoke@stonedbill - Mindflayer - 60 Rogue
However, I have to admit the cash shop prices to me are fairly high for many things, especially items that are bound to a single character.
If bag prices were about half of what they are now, I would probably outfit all of my alts with bags too. But at $10 a pop it seems to prohibitive to me, and I'll make due with the 3 bags you get from questing on my other toons.
Considering I got an account wide 110% speed mount with my Founder pack for all of my characters and spent about $60 for it. Makes it seem rather ridiculous to spend $40 for a mount for only 1 character. Especially a mount that is not any better than the mount I have, just cosmetically different.
I have to admit the keys seem to be priced just fine to me. 1250 Zen for 10 keys, is reasonable.
None of the companions seem worth spending $40 on, though of course the L15 limitation on a lot of the companions might make it more of an incentive to spend that kind of money for other people. I personally, would never spend that much, no matter how 'cool' the companion looks. If those custom purple companions were $15-20 a piece, I would probably buy all of them.
The reality is that they are going to make money off of people outfitting initial characters, and those with enough disposable income that the prices don't seen that unreasonable.
However, they would at least be getting a lot -more- of my money and probably other people's money if the prices were lower on many of the character specific items.
why? because theyre priced about $3-$5 per packs. it started small. and goes a little bit crazier later on. and before you know it, you spend alot more than you needed, or wanted to spend in the first place
but when i read $40 for a mount... i'd rather buy the crappy, buggy new dead island game.
when i read i need $160 for an enchantment. i'd rather buy 4 new games
when i made the math that i need $320 for armor + weapon enchant, and another ridiculous amount of $$$$$$ in this game. i'd rather buy an ipad/ android tablet/ a game console/ a new graphic card/ other ****
and just like the poster above me said. if the bag priced as half, $5. i'd probably buy 6 of them, 2 for every character i have. or just 3 for each of my level 60's character
but when i looked at $10 bag price. i wont even buy a single bag.
if the mount was priced $25 like wow's bling horse/ other mounts (which was heavily critized) i'd buy 3-4 of em
but when the mount is priced at $40. i'd say screw it. i wont buy a single mount. ever. unless its a 100ft firebreathing glowing dragon with 400% move speed
so what your saying is.. your willing to pay 10$ a qt. 40$ a gal for gas?
- The buyer is purchasing an item that doesn't exist.
- The buyer is purchasing entertainment.
Welcome to the grey area, where customers provide feedback and make entertainment decisions based on research, rather than just living in a binary yes or no universe. When the game folds due to being priced out of the market by other MMOs, I will be the one explaining to you that no one handcuffed you to a chair and made you spend tall cash supporting a now dead game by paying money into the system right before MMOs that charge 1/4 the price absconded with all its players.
Welcome to the tin-foil hat area of baseless speculation!
Yeah, because how supply and demand works is so baseless. This is the kind of stuff people post when someone provides feedback which cannot be refuted. This game charges ~160 dollars to epic one toon out. This is 16 months of sub fees in most MMOs. ~10 months in many others.
You said the game is folding and you think MY feedback is baseless? I think you need to recheck the definitions of "baseless" and "refuted."
As has been pointed out repeatedly, the game offers you the opportunity to pay for enchantments. They are in no way required, nor is that the only path.
And none of that leads to the conclusion that the game is folding.
I think you need to stop trolling people who want prices reduced. Youll be thanking us later.
And I didnt say the game is folding this instant. It is likely to happen in this highly competitive F2P market sooner than later however if they try to charge 4x+ what other MMOs charge.
And an insane 1616 shard average grind for those who dont pay, per epic toon. WHen I subject the justification of "it can be had free" to reductio ad absurdum analysis, we find that the grind level is completely absurd to merrit that justification. Combine that with the way economics work, it isnt hard to see how this game will be priced out of the market soon after the shiny new game smell wears off.