Incorrect buddy read my post just above yours Str is a Secondary stat for TR. Dex is the primary stat. Str does increase damage but Dex increases crit. You need BOTH. A more balanced approach would be appropriate with Dex slightly higher. To say just stack Str is stupid. You should also have a healthy amount of Charisma although lower then Dex and Str. Read my post above yours, I clearly lay out what each stat does and the priorities.
sorry, i was referring to dnd in general, not just this game. either way, 1% dmg usually beats out 1% crit in just about every game that allows for both since crit always has some type of artificial soft or hardcap... def worth testing tho imo, may lvl up a TR just to test it...
What is democrazy? It is a government in which the ruling power is given to whoever is most skillful at directing the herd instincts of the largest masses of their most ignorant citizens.
--Nom Anor
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kysis020Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited April 2013
Realy... str should be secondary priorty and Dex first sinds its for crits and evasion...
Thanks for the tip. I swapped over to power over crit and see a huge difference. Not going to waste my token though. Since I'm only 31, I may just start a new one. I messed up on the feats too.
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shytbyrdMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 44
edited April 2013
I made the mistake of going with Dex and Cha hoping that the Combat Advantage damage would be the way to go. The whole 1% to companion stat bonus <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> they boast seems worthless even at 24 cha and using the non-combat cat. I did Str in Beta and I had way better damage all around. I'm 60 and thinking of re-rolling Str/Dex again. I do great stealth damage and I guess I can deflect like a boss, but I would rather have 100% damage bonus all the time.
So far because mobs seem to be chaotic and run around all over the place, it's tough to keep stealthed and be mobile and get Combat Advantage Damage bonus while clearing trash which is like 75% of what I seem to do in dungeons. I shine on bosses though, I watch the health drop as i'm stealthed or pair up with the tank and have CA.
PVP I guess i'm ok because I can usually stealth for the kill and have CA, or roll with another player or two.
One thing I will say is, Dex gives you resistance against AOE damage and a rogues job puts him in the line of fire on all AOE bursts. Shaving off a decent portion of that could mean your life if you miss a dodge roll.
Hey everyone, new player here. Im kind of at a loss as to why people recommend halfing or human races for TR. I looked at Orc and they seem to have the upper hand in with their racial skills. They get furious assault, ability scores and swift charge increasing crit % damage, +2's on both strength and dex with the run speed boost. It seems that orc and TR are the perfect couple, or am I missing something?
Hey everyone, new player here. Im kind of at a loss as to why people recommend halfing or human races for TR. I looked at Orc and they seem to have the upper hand in with their racial skills. They get furious assault, ability scores and swift charge increasing crit % damage, +2's on both strength and dex with the run speed boost. It seems that orc and TR are the perfect couple, or am I missing something?
Halflings get deflect (3 feat points worth) and more importantly 10% CC resist. If you are not going to PvP, Orc wins hands down. Even in PvP if you don't mind the CC, the Orc is amazin.
have you even logged in and looked at a character sheet? 1st this isn't PnP 4E, it's BASED on it, but in the end it's an MMO. 2nd this started as a question of which to go for by the OP, STR or DEX, within THIS game. Leave the tabletop out of it.
FACTS = for ROGUE, taken directly from the character sheet. Each point above 10 = 1%. 11 = 1%, 12 = 2%, 20 = 10%.
str is - stamina regen/dot damage resist/DAMAGE BONUS....
dex is - aoe damage resist/deflection chance/CRIT CHANCE....
cha is - deflection chance/companion stat bonus/COMBAT ADVANTAGE DAMAGE
so, when you roll base stats, go str/cha if you want to stack damage, specialize dex if you want crit
Yes I did and I stand by everything I said.
Did you ever consider the stuff on the character screen might not be right, as far as I know at this point it says ALL classes get damage from STR even casters so I'd take that with a grain of salt.
this is DnD, str is the only stat that matters for melee classes, it has always been this way, rogue warrior paladin etc... str is the dmg stat... stacking str will always boost ur dps, dex boosts reflex and thus defense and thus wont give you the dps advantage that str does.
DEX based classes in D&D have always gained damage from DEX, that being said STR also add to damage but typically Rogues wouldn't stack STR.
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Realy... str should be secondary priorty and Dex first sinds its for crits and evasion...
what he said.
Going mainly str is for noobs sorry. No defense and no deflection. Just pure dmg. You fall over the moment someone hit you with a toothpick. You are not even a glass cannon. Paper cannon that cannot sustain at all.
I cant see str rogue surviving in solo pve or pvp. In a party, the cleric have to babysit the TR instead of the tank. You are just a burden not an asset.
I think Rogues Want Fast More Crit.Thats are Dex< if rogue not are fast and no have crit chance you cant kill any one, if you want just Strong,play warior
DEX based classes in D&D have always gained damage from DEX, that being said STR also add to damage but typically Rogues wouldn't stack STR.
Bull****. Traditionally, in D&D both damage and to-hit were always derived from str alone for all classes, and then there was the finesse feat that allowed your character to substitute dex for str *for the to-hit part*, not for damage.
Bull****. Traditionally, in D&D both damage and to-hit were always derived from str alone for all classes, and then there was the finesse feat that allowed your character to substitute dex for str *for the to-hit part*, not for damage.
Bullpoop yourself, did you actually read what I said?
"that being said STR also add to damage but typically Rogues wouldn't stack STR."
Again no sane rogue ever stacked strength but went with weapon finesse, yes DEX doesn't directly help you to more damage but it does so indirectly, inherent weapon damage for a Rogue was pretty secondary.
In D&D 4'th edition Rogues have inherent weapon finesse AND damage of abilities are determined mainly by DEX as well.
This thread is so full with misinformation it makes my head hurt.
If you only get 1% damage/crit per point, how does starting stats even matter in the end? It's only a few percent anyway. Unless there is some more stuff going on behind the scenes, the gearing issue is more relevant.
PS. No, rogues did not get damage from dex in pen and paper (at least not after 3.0), but both str and dex were viable builds. DS.
Also, this is 4th edition, which has completely different gameplay mechanics from earlier D&D versions, so even if they did follow the rules slavishly (which they do not), you can pretty much forget everything you know.
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bladetwistMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited May 2013
I'm not a follower of D&D or its rules, so the comment below can be utterly wrong, but works for me.
If I remember when doing the char, dex applied to both damage/crits, while stre is only damage. You should try to level both, but with a priority on dex.
For gear... Power (more damage), and crit, forget the rest.
I can't believe this is still going on. Hover over the stats and see what you want. Me? I'm going to str because it increases overall damage. Right now my crit is fine, so I haven't been doing dexterity.
this is DnD, str is the only stat that matters for melee classes, it has always been this way, rogue warrior paladin etc... str is the dmg stat... stacking str will always boost ur dps, dex boosts reflex and thus defense and thus wont give you the dps advantage that str does.
Yup... not sure how so many ppl are missing this, but... ya, if youre all dex and youre consistently outdamaging all the other TRs you run with, they pretty much either suck at playing, or sucked at rolling their char, or both.
Look at the effect of your stats... I went with a half orc for str bonus, took the highest STR/CHA combo i could and dropped dex as much as i could as the effects it was giving was minimal aside from the crit % chance, which if you have half decent TR gear will take care of itself with base rogue stats.
Now lets look at results. Ive gone from day 1, every run, skirmish, whatever I've done, Ive surpassed every other player's damage but no less than 2x on bad runs. Generally its 4x or more. And this isn't like 1 dungeon run or skirmish a day. This is 7 or 8 runs , both Q and hand picked grps in dungeons, 12 or more skirmishes through Q (this includes many, MANY runs with ppl 5 to 7 levels higher than me as the next highest dps.. all classes included. I even accidentally forgot to put back on my normal at level weapons and gear a few times and had on those lowbie level 20 shortswords you can by for their skin in the AD shop and the bloodscar's armor i keep extra sets of in my inventory for appearance changes when i get new gear... so this effect remains even when my toon was running with horribly low gear compared to the rest of the party... no joke) THis is no exaggeration. I would beg anyone who disbelieves to roll a test toon, level to 60 and watch the results along the way themself if they want to test the theory. But as for results damage wise, I'm talking im passing 3m damage in early runs like lair of the mad dragon when the next closest dps is barely reaching 1m at first dragon attempt. I've even tested this by lazily hopping into combat after giving other players a headstart (so I'm not that guy running into combat ahead of the tank, no...) I've had runs where I've let the other guys get a half a million damage headstart and had them asking me wtf i was doing, then replied "watch me pass you in about 2 minutes then leave you in the dust" only to find that 5 minutes further into the run im 1m ahead in damage, yet again.
Yes, the fact that half orcs also get the 5% crit severity effect does help... but in the end a large part of the boost the overall done gets is from the fact that, crit or no, over the course of the run, each pt more in str is 1% more damage hit for hit of any other like geared rogue. if youre sitting at 24 or so stre, thats nearly a 10% average damage % differential without even trying. SPec yourself half decent in your powers and feats, play decently (know when to use what skill) and the rest takes care of itself.
Want to be hitting 14k lethal strike crits at level 30? Aint gonna happen with a dex build. So ya, there are other builds you would go with for utility by all means, but in terms of damage, STR is number one. If you know how to utilize combat advantage (and even if you don't there are talents that can do things like give you 15 seconds of it free passively every time you daily) then CHA is doing more for you than dex as well. Take a high STR/CHA rogue vs a High DEX so so STR/CHA rogue and you can get up to a 20% base damage differential from the gate.
This doesn't downplay the enormous role of playing your character well. That can and will make up for a LOT of other factors, which is why someone with a high dex build would be owning in the first place. So that is a plus.. but critting 1% or even 5% more often than the next rogue just isnt gonna do the same over a stretch of time as a flat out base of 5% more damage base. That comes BEFORE all the other multipliers, including the crits you DO get. So, you crit at worst maybe 5% less often... but when you do, the damage is larger. When you don't.. the damage is ALWAYS larger.
So, take that into account.... In the end, the reality is, its not all about damage. So this is said hoping that ppl bear that in mind. You can own on the damage chart but play like a moron, running into combat, pulling unecessary <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, etc. I'd far rather have a solid, well rounded player in my team than someone who can say they're always top damage. So there's that, ofc.
I'm not a follower of D&D or its rules, so the comment below can be utterly wrong, but works for me.
If I remember when doing the char, dex applied to both damage/crits, while stre is only damage. You should try to level both, but with a priority on dex.
For gear... Power (more damage), and crit, forget the rest.[
Plz ppl, hover over your stats in your char page. Dex does nothing for damage.
I've been doing pretty well so far but a friend of mine also has a Rogue. I went Dex because its our main stat and he went Str.
We often group together and have similar gear, yet he often beats me on total damage done, even though I crit more. I concentrate on crit and he goes for nothing but DMG.
Should I respec to Str and swap my gear for damage? Anyone have any ideas/suggestions?
Edit:
Thanks for the suggestions and answers all. After reading the old class forums, I decided to focus on Str and Pow instead of Dex + Crit + AP.
Spending my wonderful respec token for the good of everyone (namely me), I am now a full Str Rogue, focusing mainly on Power with some minor Crit and AP when I can get them without sacrificing Pow too much.
Over all my damage totals went up by about 12-14% (running the SAME dungeon) and I am a lot happier than I was mainly focusing on Dex + Crit + AP.
The downside is in PvP I lost a lot of my burst damage, allowing more classes to realize I am on them and try to get away, but that just means I get to chase them
Unless they are a GF that is, then I just ignore them because it is my firm belief that they can't die, and the CW target just looks too tempting to pass up.
I also think it depends on how you play. I'm also using a Charisma/Dexterity Rogue. Go in stealth 90% of the time while abusing critical hits and combat advantage. Our Attribute Points do not matter much, in my opinion. They give a minor 1% boost in our stats for each point above 10. That helps, but majority of our overall competitiveness relies on the stats we get from our gear. Gear is very important in this game as we get majority of our stat boosts from gear. Our Attribute Points further improve the effectiveness of our stats, but it doesn't have as significant of an effect on our overall combat efficiency like how gear stats affect us.
I play CHA/DEX Rogue because of one sole reason. I could have played STR, but the additional damage we get from STR can easily be gained by getting gear with high Power stats. The bonuses CHA gives, however, cannot be easily attained from gear. It increases the effectiveness of our Combat Advantage, and as Rogues we aim to exploit this via the use of Stealth. CHA also increases our Deflection by 1%, and DEX increases it by 0.5%. Meaning at level 60, we'll get a total amount of an added 9% to our Deflection and that's a pretty good bonus in my opinion. We get more deflection from gear as well. Getting a higher amount of chance to reduce incoming damage by 25% is good for our survivability. We almost perpetually proc Combat Advantage anyway thanks to Stealth and Daze skills.
Yes, a large portion of output comes down to gear. At the beginning of the game, when you have only your starting stats and starting gear, that doesnt seem like a lot. If, however, throughout the game you stack str, youre working ont he same principle as what your gear is doing for you. You are stacking more str and CHA at level 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, and 60. So, from a non stacker to a stacker, you could have a difference as much as 12% from str alone, not mentioniong what youre doing with your cha for combat advantage.
That 12% multiplies the damage the power on your gear is doing for you. Whether you crit or not, that 12% is there. Whether you're getting combat advantage, youre doing 12% more damage every hit, INCLUDING CRITS. So maybe the dex stacker is getting a few more crits... lets say 12%.. so, 12 more times in every 100 hits, youre critting where the str stacker wasnt... going purely by the percentile (this doesnt take into account epicly horrible RNG outcome). Ok, but you crit for less. That 12% that the other guy gets multiplied into his crits is always taken into account. So their crits are that much bigger.
In the end, the numbers don't lie. Again, I'd beg anyone unsure about it to level a STR/CHA rogue up... even just to the mid 30s. It will be readily apparent very early on, at about the time you start getting cloak tower gear, just how the difference works.
SO, feel the difference for yourself. There is a time and place for a dex build, but if what you are after is higher, consistent damage overall, there just isn't any question. STR outweighs dex. Period.
Having built and levelled several different varieties of rogues, from maxed dex, maxed CHA even dex/str, maxed str, etc. it really isnt even a debate for ppl who have seen both sides. I know you can theorycraft it into the ground, but the only way to get beyond what you "think" is the better way is to actually test both. There is a lot of theorycrafting coming from dexers... and a lot of actual experience coming from players who have now built both. Not saying which way is right for you. Just saying in terms of damage, STR builds will annihilate Dex builds fairly quickly.
I am a dex build and I consistently out damage other TR of the same level and some a level or 2 higher. I don't know their build or gear but I know I've run at least a dozen times with TR's same level or 1 or 2 higher and so far I've had #1 damage every single time in those groups. maybe they just sucked though too. I do well in PvP too, I die but I kill much more often than I die
I'm not 60 yet so if there is a cap I'm not hitting it yet but I can say that it's been my experience that dex/str/cha is the way to go..
lastly, I think as with most questions on this forum the real answer is learn to play your class well. A crappy player could have the best build ever and they will still get owned..
something to keep in mind... 90% of the rogues out there are Dex rogues. So you're likely getting a comparison of nothing but your playstyle. So, props for being ahead of the curve in that regard. Because the game tells ppl playing rogues that dex is their primary stat, that is what nearly everyone ends up maxing.
Its come down to a group of ppl who understand the numbers deciding to give STR rogues a whirl that has brought up the issue. Word has gotten around that STR makes for a higher damaging rogue. SOme ppl don't want to believe it. ANd that is awesome.. I hope most NEVER do. Thats what seperated the players at the top of the curve from the rest of the pack, lol.
Just saying in terms of damage, STR builds will annihilate Dex builds fairly quickly.
Long but very well written argument. On thing I was wondering though is how good the additional deflection chance from DEX is versus AOE at endgame. Sure you might do less damage, but have more survivability - would this be worth it?
Currently I am running a DEX/STR based rogue on the basis that I heard that AOE is a pain at end-game and this gives me more consistent damage then investing in CHA, at least when I solo.
Yes, a large portion of output comes down to gear. At the beginning of the game, when you have only your starting stats and starting gear, that doesnt seem like a lot. If, however, throughout the game you stack str, youre working ont he same principle as what your gear is doing for you. You are stacking more str and CHA at level 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, and 60. So, from a non stacker to a stacker, you could have a difference as much as 12% from str alone, not mentioniong what youre doing with your cha for combat advantage.
That 12% multiplies the damage the power on your gear is doing for you. Whether you crit or not, that 12% is there. Whether you're getting combat advantage, youre doing 12% more damage every hit, INCLUDING CRITS. So maybe the dex stacker is getting a few more crits... lets say 12%.. so, 12 more times in every 100 hits, youre critting where the str stacker wasnt... going purely by the percentile (this doesnt take into account epicly horrible RNG outcome). Ok, but you crit for less. That 12% that the other guy gets multiplied into his crits is always taken into account. So their crits are that much bigger.
In the end, the numbers don't lie. Again, I'd beg anyone unsure about it to level a STR/CHA rogue up... even just to the mid 30s. It will be readily apparent very early on, at about the time you start getting cloak tower gear, just how the difference works.
SO, feel the difference for yourself. There is a time and place for a dex build, but if what you are after is higher, consistent damage overall, there just isn't any question. STR outweighs dex. Period.
Having built and levelled several different varieties of rogues, from maxed dex, maxed CHA even dex/str, maxed str, etc. it really isnt even a debate for ppl who have seen both sides. I know you can theorycraft it into the ground, but the only way to get beyond what you "think" is the better way is to actually test both. There is a lot of theorycrafting coming from dexers... and a lot of actual experience coming from players who have now built both. Not saying which way is right for you. Just saying in terms of damage, STR builds will annihilate Dex builds fairly quickly.
So are you saying you're STR max, with CHA as your secondary?
Here's how I look at it. Would you rather hit hard all the time (str) or really hard some of the time (dex). Charisma is good but situational and actually has better weight than dex IMO if you run PVE more than PVP. With the stat system the way it is currently I would have to say str > cha > dex if running PVE. If PVP then str > dex > cha as combat advantage is a little harder to come by and you will definitely be taking hits so dex will be more useful than cha.
I am confused, you said in pvp str>dex>cha as combat advantage is less and dex helps with sustaining damage, but cha gives more deflection than dex??
I consider this a design flaw. Sure str rogues were a thing in classic DnD. but this game says dex is primary and its not even close. I don't know why, or who did this.. but..
In regards to starting stats.
str is by far priority, then cha, and dex is the least. heck, dex is less useful then int.
str>cha>int>dex
str gives % damage. And stam regen, and dot resist. all 3 are very useful. stam for dodge rolling, in and out of aoe, as well as damage avoidance. lets you dps more, and catch runners. so even that is pretty nice.
dex gives crit, deflection at .5 per. Cha gives deflection at 1 per. and deflection is pretty meh in the first place. % chance for 25% damage reduction. as if we dont use impossible to catch on call either.
aoe resist from dex. again meh. its not like it helps any. either you live or you die. 10-15% doesnt help. avoid it entirely.
Seriously I would rather have the recharge from INT.
But lets talk damage.
skill coefficient x (weapon + power) x str % bonus x random % buffs x combat advantage / armor=damage
damage x crit severity= crit damage.
Its important to note that each increases damage multiplicative.
a 10% str bonus increases your total damage 10% more or less.
So, why is str so strong? well, because its alone.
20 str gives you 10% increased damage.
20 dex gives you 10% increased crit chance. 10% increased crit chance however is NOT 10% damage increase. astute observers would note that 75% crit severity means that 10% is reduced to 7.5%. However, that is still not complete.
you have 5% base crit, and how much crit rating? dex's crit % adds into your crit rating, and the 5% base.
lets say for a moment you have a 1000 damage attack. and it crits for 175% damage, or 1750. You have a 50% crit chance, from 5% base, 10% dex, and 35% from crit rating. 50% chance of that 1750 is 1375 average damage.
lets add 1 dex.
1000 damage attack, 1750 crit, 51% of the time, 1382.5 average. .54% damage increase.
Lets add 1 str instead.
1000 was 20 str, so we need to remove that 10% first. base is really 909.
909x 10%=1000, 909x 11% is 1009 , and 1766 crit. 1387.5 average. a .9% damage increase over 1375 average.
Each point of dex crit is devalued by the 5% base crit, and crit rating.
adding 1% of crit via dex is a drop in the bucket to the 30-60% of total crit.
meanwhile adding 1% str is adding to a much smaller pool of 3-20%.
disc of str ADDs 3-6% btw. which does devalue each point of str.
20 str, and disc of str feat, is as if you have 26 or 27 str. (it actually appears to give 7, not 6%)
Comments
sorry, i was referring to dnd in general, not just this game. either way, 1% dmg usually beats out 1% crit in just about every game that allows for both since crit always has some type of artificial soft or hardcap... def worth testing tho imo, may lvl up a TR just to test it...
--Nom Anor
IGN: Obscura Rouge 60 , GS 9k
Handel @Kysis020
So far because mobs seem to be chaotic and run around all over the place, it's tough to keep stealthed and be mobile and get Combat Advantage Damage bonus while clearing trash which is like 75% of what I seem to do in dungeons. I shine on bosses though, I watch the health drop as i'm stealthed or pair up with the tank and have CA.
PVP I guess i'm ok because I can usually stealth for the kill and have CA, or roll with another player or two.
One thing I will say is, Dex gives you resistance against AOE damage and a rogues job puts him in the line of fire on all AOE bursts. Shaving off a decent portion of that could mean your life if you miss a dodge roll.
Halflings get deflect (3 feat points worth) and more importantly 10% CC resist. If you are not going to PvP, Orc wins hands down. Even in PvP if you don't mind the CC, the Orc is amazin.
Did you ever consider the stuff on the character screen might not be right, as far as I know at this point it says ALL classes get damage from STR even casters so I'd take that with a grain of salt.
DEX based classes in D&D have always gained damage from DEX, that being said STR also add to damage but typically Rogues wouldn't stack STR.
what he said.
Going mainly str is for noobs sorry. No defense and no deflection. Just pure dmg. You fall over the moment someone hit you with a toothpick. You are not even a glass cannon. Paper cannon that cannot sustain at all.
I cant see str rogue surviving in solo pve or pvp. In a party, the cleric have to babysit the TR instead of the tank. You are just a burden not an asset.
Bull****. Traditionally, in D&D both damage and to-hit were always derived from str alone for all classes, and then there was the finesse feat that allowed your character to substitute dex for str *for the to-hit part*, not for damage.
"that being said STR also add to damage but typically Rogues wouldn't stack STR."
Again no sane rogue ever stacked strength but went with weapon finesse, yes DEX doesn't directly help you to more damage but it does so indirectly, inherent weapon damage for a Rogue was pretty secondary.
In D&D 4'th edition Rogues have inherent weapon finesse AND damage of abilities are determined mainly by DEX as well.
http://i40.tinypic.com/otddv7.jpg
If you only get 1% damage/crit per point, how does starting stats even matter in the end? It's only a few percent anyway. Unless there is some more stuff going on behind the scenes, the gearing issue is more relevant.
PS. No, rogues did not get damage from dex in pen and paper (at least not after 3.0), but both str and dex were viable builds. DS.
Also, this is 4th edition, which has completely different gameplay mechanics from earlier D&D versions, so even if they did follow the rules slavishly (which they do not), you can pretty much forget everything you know.
If I remember when doing the char, dex applied to both damage/crits, while stre is only damage. You should try to level both, but with a priority on dex.
For gear... Power (more damage), and crit, forget the rest.
Yup... not sure how so many ppl are missing this, but... ya, if youre all dex and youre consistently outdamaging all the other TRs you run with, they pretty much either suck at playing, or sucked at rolling their char, or both.
Look at the effect of your stats... I went with a half orc for str bonus, took the highest STR/CHA combo i could and dropped dex as much as i could as the effects it was giving was minimal aside from the crit % chance, which if you have half decent TR gear will take care of itself with base rogue stats.
Now lets look at results. Ive gone from day 1, every run, skirmish, whatever I've done, Ive surpassed every other player's damage but no less than 2x on bad runs. Generally its 4x or more. And this isn't like 1 dungeon run or skirmish a day. This is 7 or 8 runs , both Q and hand picked grps in dungeons, 12 or more skirmishes through Q (this includes many, MANY runs with ppl 5 to 7 levels higher than me as the next highest dps.. all classes included. I even accidentally forgot to put back on my normal at level weapons and gear a few times and had on those lowbie level 20 shortswords you can by for their skin in the AD shop and the bloodscar's armor i keep extra sets of in my inventory for appearance changes when i get new gear... so this effect remains even when my toon was running with horribly low gear compared to the rest of the party... no joke) THis is no exaggeration. I would beg anyone who disbelieves to roll a test toon, level to 60 and watch the results along the way themself if they want to test the theory. But as for results damage wise, I'm talking im passing 3m damage in early runs like lair of the mad dragon when the next closest dps is barely reaching 1m at first dragon attempt. I've even tested this by lazily hopping into combat after giving other players a headstart (so I'm not that guy running into combat ahead of the tank, no...) I've had runs where I've let the other guys get a half a million damage headstart and had them asking me wtf i was doing, then replied "watch me pass you in about 2 minutes then leave you in the dust" only to find that 5 minutes further into the run im 1m ahead in damage, yet again.
Yes, the fact that half orcs also get the 5% crit severity effect does help... but in the end a large part of the boost the overall done gets is from the fact that, crit or no, over the course of the run, each pt more in str is 1% more damage hit for hit of any other like geared rogue. if youre sitting at 24 or so stre, thats nearly a 10% average damage % differential without even trying. SPec yourself half decent in your powers and feats, play decently (know when to use what skill) and the rest takes care of itself.
Want to be hitting 14k lethal strike crits at level 30? Aint gonna happen with a dex build. So ya, there are other builds you would go with for utility by all means, but in terms of damage, STR is number one. If you know how to utilize combat advantage (and even if you don't there are talents that can do things like give you 15 seconds of it free passively every time you daily) then CHA is doing more for you than dex as well. Take a high STR/CHA rogue vs a High DEX so so STR/CHA rogue and you can get up to a 20% base damage differential from the gate.
This doesn't downplay the enormous role of playing your character well. That can and will make up for a LOT of other factors, which is why someone with a high dex build would be owning in the first place. So that is a plus.. but critting 1% or even 5% more often than the next rogue just isnt gonna do the same over a stretch of time as a flat out base of 5% more damage base. That comes BEFORE all the other multipliers, including the crits you DO get. So, you crit at worst maybe 5% less often... but when you do, the damage is larger. When you don't.. the damage is ALWAYS larger.
So, take that into account.... In the end, the reality is, its not all about damage. So this is said hoping that ppl bear that in mind. You can own on the damage chart but play like a moron, running into combat, pulling unecessary <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, etc. I'd far rather have a solid, well rounded player in my team than someone who can say they're always top damage. So there's that, ofc.
Be a man and pour stat points into CON.
Go on i dare u
I play CHA/DEX Rogue because of one sole reason. I could have played STR, but the additional damage we get from STR can easily be gained by getting gear with high Power stats. The bonuses CHA gives, however, cannot be easily attained from gear. It increases the effectiveness of our Combat Advantage, and as Rogues we aim to exploit this via the use of Stealth. CHA also increases our Deflection by 1%, and DEX increases it by 0.5%. Meaning at level 60, we'll get a total amount of an added 9% to our Deflection and that's a pretty good bonus in my opinion. We get more deflection from gear as well. Getting a higher amount of chance to reduce incoming damage by 25% is good for our survivability. We almost perpetually proc Combat Advantage anyway thanks to Stealth and Daze skills.
Mark my words.
In the end, thats what it comes down to.
Yes, a large portion of output comes down to gear. At the beginning of the game, when you have only your starting stats and starting gear, that doesnt seem like a lot. If, however, throughout the game you stack str, youre working ont he same principle as what your gear is doing for you. You are stacking more str and CHA at level 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, and 60. So, from a non stacker to a stacker, you could have a difference as much as 12% from str alone, not mentioniong what youre doing with your cha for combat advantage.
That 12% multiplies the damage the power on your gear is doing for you. Whether you crit or not, that 12% is there. Whether you're getting combat advantage, youre doing 12% more damage every hit, INCLUDING CRITS. So maybe the dex stacker is getting a few more crits... lets say 12%.. so, 12 more times in every 100 hits, youre critting where the str stacker wasnt... going purely by the percentile (this doesnt take into account epicly horrible RNG outcome). Ok, but you crit for less. That 12% that the other guy gets multiplied into his crits is always taken into account. So their crits are that much bigger.
In the end, the numbers don't lie. Again, I'd beg anyone unsure about it to level a STR/CHA rogue up... even just to the mid 30s. It will be readily apparent very early on, at about the time you start getting cloak tower gear, just how the difference works.
SO, feel the difference for yourself. There is a time and place for a dex build, but if what you are after is higher, consistent damage overall, there just isn't any question. STR outweighs dex. Period.
Having built and levelled several different varieties of rogues, from maxed dex, maxed CHA even dex/str, maxed str, etc. it really isnt even a debate for ppl who have seen both sides. I know you can theorycraft it into the ground, but the only way to get beyond what you "think" is the better way is to actually test both. There is a lot of theorycrafting coming from dexers... and a lot of actual experience coming from players who have now built both. Not saying which way is right for you. Just saying in terms of damage, STR builds will annihilate Dex builds fairly quickly.
something to keep in mind... 90% of the rogues out there are Dex rogues. So you're likely getting a comparison of nothing but your playstyle. So, props for being ahead of the curve in that regard. Because the game tells ppl playing rogues that dex is their primary stat, that is what nearly everyone ends up maxing.
Its come down to a group of ppl who understand the numbers deciding to give STR rogues a whirl that has brought up the issue. Word has gotten around that STR makes for a higher damaging rogue. SOme ppl don't want to believe it. ANd that is awesome.. I hope most NEVER do. Thats what seperated the players at the top of the curve from the rest of the pack, lol.
Long but very well written argument. On thing I was wondering though is how good the additional deflection chance from DEX is versus AOE at endgame. Sure you might do less damage, but have more survivability - would this be worth it?
Currently I am running a DEX/STR based rogue on the basis that I heard that AOE is a pain at end-game and this gives me more consistent damage then investing in CHA, at least when I solo.
Any comments, damnyounames or anyone else.
So are you saying you're STR max, with CHA as your secondary?
In regards to starting stats.
str is by far priority, then cha, and dex is the least. heck, dex is less useful then int.
str>cha>int>dex
str gives % damage. And stam regen, and dot resist. all 3 are very useful. stam for dodge rolling, in and out of aoe, as well as damage avoidance. lets you dps more, and catch runners. so even that is pretty nice.
dex gives crit, deflection at .5 per. Cha gives deflection at 1 per. and deflection is pretty meh in the first place. % chance for 25% damage reduction. as if we dont use impossible to catch on call either.
aoe resist from dex. again meh. its not like it helps any. either you live or you die. 10-15% doesnt help. avoid it entirely.
Seriously I would rather have the recharge from INT.
But lets talk damage.
skill coefficient x (weapon + power) x str % bonus x random % buffs x combat advantage / armor=damage
damage x crit severity= crit damage.
Its important to note that each increases damage multiplicative.
a 10% str bonus increases your total damage 10% more or less.
So, why is str so strong? well, because its alone.
20 str gives you 10% increased damage.
20 dex gives you 10% increased crit chance. 10% increased crit chance however is NOT 10% damage increase. astute observers would note that 75% crit severity means that 10% is reduced to 7.5%. However, that is still not complete.
you have 5% base crit, and how much crit rating? dex's crit % adds into your crit rating, and the 5% base.
lets say for a moment you have a 1000 damage attack. and it crits for 175% damage, or 1750. You have a 50% crit chance, from 5% base, 10% dex, and 35% from crit rating. 50% chance of that 1750 is 1375 average damage.
lets add 1 dex.
1000 damage attack, 1750 crit, 51% of the time, 1382.5 average. .54% damage increase.
Lets add 1 str instead.
1000 was 20 str, so we need to remove that 10% first. base is really 909.
909x 10%=1000, 909x 11% is 1009 , and 1766 crit. 1387.5 average. a .9% damage increase over 1375 average.
Each point of dex crit is devalued by the 5% base crit, and crit rating.
adding 1% of crit via dex is a drop in the bucket to the 30-60% of total crit.
meanwhile adding 1% str is adding to a much smaller pool of 3-20%.
disc of str ADDs 3-6% btw. which does devalue each point of str.
20 str, and disc of str feat, is as if you have 26 or 27 str. (it actually appears to give 7, not 6%)